MFW - starting history cycle early?

[Guest]

Can I start CtG in first grade? Let me back up. We're planning a geography year for K. I would love to do SOTW, but I would really like to add the Christian emphasis of MFW. I am not interested in doing their K, 1st, Adv or ECC programs. (Yes, I've seen them.) The history programs all say 2nd-8th with packages for youngers during the more violent subject periods, right? And isn't it the same subject matter that SWB recommends covering in 1st with SOTW 1? Looking at the samples, I don't really see writing assignments or any reason that would make me believe I couldn't start it in 1st. Yes, this is premature, but I really want to get a vision of where were headed for elementary school. You know, if we're looking at a 5 yr. vs. 4 yr. history cycle, it may change some things we do and use.

 

I appreciate your thoughts...

[PeterPan]

If you want to start early, I would use VP instead of MFW.

 

As another option, have you looked at WP AS for 1st and 2nd? Then you could start either VP (combine OTAE and NTGR into one year to still be on track for Omnibus) or MFW CtG or MOH at that point. We did some american when dd was in 1st, but it was just as WP was coming out. I had already bought my stuff before WP came out, so I proceeded with my plan. I found it so uncomfortable (planning stuff myself, using TQ) that I eventually jumped ship and went to ancients 2nd semester of 1st grade using VP OTAE. We school year-round, so that put us into the middle ages (VP MARR, very heavy stuff!) before she was at all of an age to be interested. If we had done SOTW2 then, maybe it would have worked? We did it, but it wasn't an awesome time. Now we're back to american and happy again. I wish I had done american more fully using WP AS 1 and 2 before we started into ancients. That's just my hindsite for you, for what it's worth.

 

If there's any chance you're thinking you'd want Omnibus in 7th, it's worth considering that whole progression now. As you say, there are a lot of good choices, but they get more slim come junior high. No point cycling really fast only to realize you have to do it all over again and without materials you like. :(

[cbollin]

Can I start CtG in first grade?

 

I wouldn't. It's not written for lower grammar stage. ;) But to each his own, right?

 

The history programs are for when the oldest is in 4th-8th grades and then younger students in grades 2 and 3 can join in. In some years, there are supplemental readings for grades 2 and 3, but the program is geared for older. In CTG, you'd be using the whole program with older kids and then the under 4th grade crowd would get to focus more on hands on stuff, and 3 R's, so they get some history and aren't forgotten. They get to learn with the family right at the stage they are.

 

I really don't think a first grader would do well in Creation to the Greeks if they are the oldest. You'd leave out too much to make it worth your while. That's too expensive to not use most of it.

 

I'm curious what part are you not seeing? The Children's Homer is not a light book. Archimedes and the door to Science? Streams of Civilization is a high school level text? Victory Journey through the Bible? what are you not seeing that makes you think it is for a 6 year old who is the oldest in the family? It's not the topics exactly, it's the level of books used.

 

There is a lot of writing in CTG and memory work and doing an overview of the Old Testament. But it is geared for when oldest in the family is in grades 4-8.

 

Why are you not interested in using the 1st grade program to help have the Bible overview during ancients? You'd get to do a lot of notebooking and learning composition skills with the Bible notebook. You can read SOTW alongside if you want to. (I personally wouldn't do that because of my own convictions these days to wait a few years before all of that.)

 

If you're considering about 4 year cycles, vs. 5 year cycle and just other perspectives on how to implement classical education in the 21st century with a Christian perspective, may I suggest you get a convention workshop by David Hazell, of MFW, by that similar title?

click here or even the earlier version (best seller from the Cincinnati convention in 2007

click here

 

 

It's worth listening to how they interpret classical models as you make your decision.

 

-crystal

[Tabrett]

I plan on using MFW1 with SOTW 1 and AG. I think MfW1 is light enough to add SOTW with no problem.

[Guest]

If you want to start early, I would use VP instead of MFW.

 

We school year-round, so that put us into the middle ages (VP MARR, very heavy stuff!) before she was at all of an age to be interested.

 

Yes, I've heard this from you before and it has always really stuck out to me. I'm wondering if the same thing is similar with MFW - if the equivalent of their MARR would just be too much for for us if we start early. I love the VP materials, but it just puts a big kink in my history cycles :D - not starting until 2nd and then going for 5 years. So, are you saying to hit MARR at 3rd is too much? (I don't know if I saw the exact age you guys ended up doing that.)

[Guest]

I wouldn't. It's not written for lower grammar stage. ;) But to each his own, right?

 

Hey I totally appreciate a veteran's opinion!

 

Okay. Just from looking at the CtG PDF sample, for Week 10 - the assignments I can see are:

 

 

 

• Reading assignments (the sources aren't my biggest concern; I'll explain later)

• Memory Verse (Memorizing 10 commandments & 2 Tim. 3:16-17)

• Handwriting: Copy Memory Verse

• Language Arts: We'd be using our own

• Activities such as weaving a basket, making clothes, make an Egyptian meal

• Notebook: Write a brief summary of Joseph

• Science, art lesson, read aloud

 

To me, just reading these, I don't see this as overwhelming. At all. Is there more in the teacher's manual than what they show online? In the PDF, it goes from week 10 to week 11, so I assumed that's how the TM really looks - maybe not the case? Honestly, just from looking at this, I wouldn't think of using it for an older student. Okay, but as you said it comes down to the sources:

 

I'm curious what part are you not seeing? The Children's Homer is not a light book. Archimedes and the door to Science? Streams of Civilization is a high school level text? Victory Journey through the Bible? what are you not seeing that makes you think it is for a 6 year old who is the oldest in the family? It's not the topics exactly, it's the level of books used.

-crystal

 

I have not seen most of their recommended sources in person. I assumed, though, that since other companies (VP for one) use many of the same books in elementary school (specifically 2nd grade) that they are age appropriate. However - is it not easy enough to swap out sources or modify what they suggest?

 

I know one of the major appeals of their company is that it is open and go, but that is not my biggest concern. I don't mind doing a bit of extra leg work. The part of the program that appeals to me is a missionary focus, lots of Bible reading and memorization and what I am hoping is that there are lots of teacher's notes on how to incorporate the Bible to what you're learning. (Not sure of how extensive that last one is...)

 

There is a lot of writing in CTG

Can you give me more examples of what they expect? This is what I couldn't see from the samples and could very possibly change my mind.

 

I am not interested in K or 1st b/c I have found a K geography program that I love. I like the idea of starting with ancients in 1st. I do like the history philosophy of WTM. So, that's where I'm coming from. I did hear Mr. Hazell last year at our conference, and (ducking) I didn't love his presentation. Like you said, to each his own. ;) I really do appreciate all your input!

[Guest]

 

In short :lol: Yes I think you could do it if you are willing to modify, but in your situation I would be inclined to simply do their first grade program which is ancients anyway and just add in SOTW as I wanted.

 

Okay 3 of you have said this now and it's gone over my head. Sorry. If I went this route in 1st, where would you go after if you want to continue the history cycle?

 

ETA: (Whining...) The 1st grade program really doesn't appeal to me....

Edited March 14, 2009 by Guest

[cbollin]

Okay 3 of you have said this now and it's gone over my head.

 

 

well, if what we said, has "gone over your head", then that is exactly what your child will feel like if you use CTG with her when she is 5 or 6 years old. It will go over her head. :):001_smile:

 

What if you found the 1st grade manual used and bought the chronological Bible reader too? That way you'd have the Bible stories, as well as hands on activities for understanding the bible time history, and all of that.

 

Visit their booth again at a convention. See if what they offer is what you want. I just think the online samples of their first grade don't show the full program.

 

edit to say, I didn't see your earlier answer that you didn't like his workshop. That's cool. No problem. No such thing as one program for all.

 

 

But you don't have to have their entire lives mapped out right now. It's ok. Don't worry. be happy.

 

 

 

-crystal

Edited March 14, 2009 by cbollin
missed it.

[cbollin]

To me, just reading these, I don't see this as overwhelming. At all.

 

 

I think your child will. ;)

 

Some of it is the amount of time of day to do all of it.

Some of it is retention.

Some of it is age of your child.

Some of it is the pace you do this with your child.

 

Yes, I can give more details of what they expect, but I don't think it will help. Writing expectations can be adjusted down. I think the pace of the program will overwhelm your child and therefore you'll not like it.

 

If you are going to swap out and build your own, then don’t use CTG. That just doesn't make sense.

 

Elizabeth suggested VP.

 

Did anyone suggest to look at Biblioplan? It coordinates SOTW readings and Bible lessons. Maybe that would work better for your goals right now? (they suggest Victory Journey for grades 5 and up, though).

 

As much as I love MFW, I don't think it's your program for right now.

 

-crystal

Edited March 14, 2009 by cbollin

[Angel]

My younger dd was 7 when she listened in on Rome to Reformation with her older sister. She was 5 listening in to Mystery of History Ancients. She enjoyed listening in. She remembers a few things, she doesn't remember others. She did very little work. I would have never done either program if she was the oldest. It would have been a waste of money by the time I had to leave all the things out that I would have had to tweak. There are a myriad of age-appropriate wonderful programs out there for your dc. If you like MFW so much, wait till 5th grade and do CTG thru the cycle for your 2nd time through. I would definitely do something age appropriate for the first time thru the cycle. If you don't like MFW age appropriate programs, look elsewhere or just use SOTW w/activity guides. For what it's worth, my younger dd has done Ancients with MOH and TQ with older sister, and then RtR, and this year listening to SL's read alouds. Even so, next year she'll do MFW Adventures because it is age appropriate and then go thru the cycle of MFW. She could probably jump right in to ECC or CTG, but why? I don't see the point. Succeeding at a simpler program only increases confidence as they progress through harder ones. I would not do CTG with a 5/6 yo. Find something else for your first round thru the cycle.

[Guest]

 

As much as I love MFW, I don't think it's your program for right now.

 

-crystal

 

I agree. Thank you all for your input!

[AudreyTN]

I'm starting CtG with a 4th grader, 3rd grader and a 1st grader. I do NOT expect much from him with ANYTHING except phonics and math. I definitely would not try the program with a 1st grader alone (or as the oldest.)

 

Here's a link to SOTW being combined with Egermeier's Story Bible. That might be a suitable alternative.

[PeterPan]

Monica, you're too early in this to have such firm plans that a 4 or 5 year cycle really makes that big a difference, lol. You've got to let this go and stop being so perfectionist! You have to sacrifice your perfect cycles to get the curriculum that best fits you. There is NO perfect curriculum. However there are things you're deciding are most important to you. You've decided you want to study ancients in a way that more thoroughly integrates christian topics and teaches them as truth. Well to get that, you have limited choices, and many of them are aimed at kids a bit older. In fact, many of the best resources for teaching ancients, aside from SOTW and possibly CHOW, are aimed at kids a bit older. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put all that together and see why the author of TQ and others have suggested waiting on ancients until later!

 

I don't care what you do. I do think comparing VP OTAE and NTGR to MFW CtG is inaccurate. VP's early years history programs are multi-level, with resources listed that span 2nd (or bright 1st) all the way up to 6th or 7th. When they use an upper level text as a spine reading, they are using extremely small snippets, not the entirety, and assuming quite a bit of handholding by the teacher. It's NOT the focus, just a resource. And I quite thoroughly agree with the others that all of the resources you listed would be better LATER. Trust me! I own them, the others own them. It's just overkill to try to have a young one use them as a significant spine. It's the difference between reading the encyclopedia and reading a paragraph from the encyclopedia. ;)

 

And as far as VP taking 5 years, it wouldn't. You could start in 3rd, do OTAE and NTGR in one year, then hit MARR in 4th, american over 5th and 6th, and be ready for Omnibus in 7th. That's perfectly fine, very do-able. You haven't done any of thes programs and don't know how you like to teach. You might have something come up in your life like a baby or a move that totally shatters things. The chronological approach is a suggestion to ORDER, not a perfectionist hill to die on.

 

You might fall in love with Omnibus, which cycles two times in 6 years. You might find the thing you thought was perfect isn't something you can teach, not enough teacher helps or not to your style. You need to prioritize what is most important to you, and then chose the program that has the most age-appropriate materials for the things you want to teach and provides the helps you need to make it happen. After all, if it doesn't get done, all this is moot!

 

My other tip? You're trying to hard. I remember starting and feeling so insecure, thinking I wasn't doing a good job because I was missing some elusive level. Well turns out all you really need to do at this age (K5-say 3rd) is read. It doesn't matter what you're reading, just read. If you happen to do VP and get some retention, cool. If you happen to do some fun crafts or color, cool. But if all you did was pick up a book and READ, it would be plenty! It doesn't turn into that something more till later. You don't need a fancy curriculum with logic stage connection-making till the logic stage. Don't think you're looking for more than you are or need to be doing something elusively "more". All you really need is a sensible spine of content that will get read and some fun things to throw in (coloring or crafts) if your kids enjoy that kind of thing. Don't make this hard!

 

There, off my soap box. :)

[Omma]

I can't remember the exact order, but I think I did Galloping the Globe for about 6 months around age 5/6 of my dc, followed by SL Core 1 (the Ancients) which I combined with Mystery of History. I took a break after the first 16 weeks or so (having completed ancient Egypt) and then started in on MFW 1st grade. Somewhere along the line I also did WP's Animal Worlds and finished SL Core 1 (using Hands 'n Hearts kits for crafts). I found all of these to be fun courses for 1st graders.

 

Brenda