WWYD--Saxon 7/6 or 6/5? 5th grade

[carlychan]

My son is in Saxon California 4 this year. It is similar to Saxon homeschool 5/4 or 6/5 (not sure, until this year our charter used the homeschool version 1 grade level above). My son understands the concepts easily for the most part. Here is the problem...he hurries through the problems and makes silly mistakes (often missing 5-8 out of 30). When he re-works the problems he almost always gets them correct with no help from me. On the rare occasion he has a problem I do go over the concept again. If I remind him to go slow and re-check his answers he does do better (missing 1 or 2).

 

So, here is my question. I had planned on going on to 7/6 next year but now I am rethinking that. Should I do 6/5 as a review year? I would prefer for him to be getting 90% or above on daily worksheets without re-doing so many problems. At the same time, he does get the concepts and understands. Any ideas on how to get him to take his time? Thanks for your advice!

 

Carly

[katemary63]

I really don't have an opinion on which book he should do next year. I'll just tell you what I did with my DD who routinely made careless errors. I did not make her do ALL the problems. Only evens, odds, or some such thing. Then I corrected. If she did not get 95% of them right, she had to correct her mistakes and THEN do the rest of the problems. Trust me, that pretty much weeds out careless errors and leaves mostly just errors of understanding.

 

I didn't make it like a punishment. I just told her that if she was having a problem getting it right, she needed more practice. If you make your DC do ALL the problems, you could just add problems from some other source.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I had a similar question about skipping a book a couple years ago. I could go up and possibly lose my kids' interest because they thought it was too hard or go lower and bore them. DH convinced me to try to skip. One rational was that if I was wrong and they needed to drop down a book, that was fine, I'd use it eventually.

 

Around the same time I listened to a conference talk from one of the creators of Videotext Algebra. He was actually making a criticism of Saxon, that it had so many problems every day. He went on to say that if you skipped problems to make it shorter then you ended up missing some types of problems.

 

So I stopped skipping problems. It took the boys much longer to finish lessons for a couple weeks, but then they got to be faster than they'd been before with half the work (I think because they were seeing each problem type more frequently).

 

For a while, I also had a deal where if they missed problems, then they had three more of that type from the supplemental practice to get them sharpened up. That also cut down on careless mistakes.

 

All of which is to say that you might be able to skip if you (and your son) have a plan so that you don't just leave him behind if it really is too hard or if he's not demonstrating that he gets it.

 

You might also consider having him take the placement tests. Even though they say that they aren't intended for students already using Saxon, I find that they are a useful tool.

[blessed2fosteradopt]

My son (age 10, we are using Saxon 7/6) is the EXACT same way only he misses more than 5-8 out of 30. When he corrects the missed problems in front of me he almost always get them all correct. His problem largely relates to carelessness and sloppiness. We battle this with every subject. I really like Katemary63's idea and may try to employ that by selecting 1/2 of the problems I feel he is weakest in. I will be watching this thread for other suggestions.

 

Sorry I could not be of help. I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone.

 

Blessings,

 

Lisa

[Ellie]

I"m not familiar with the Saxon text you're using, either; I'm thinking that you should call the publisher and find out what they recommend.

 

FTR, it is *not* a good idea to skip problems in Saxon. The strength of its method is that every concept is touched on in every single lesson--built-in review, and if your dc is skipping problems he's missing the review.

 

Here are some comments about that:

 

Janet in WA: Saxon did go to a lot of trouble developing the design of those problem sets. Unlike with most textbooks that just offer lots of practice with the same kind of problem where omitting some of them doesn't have much impact, omitting Saxon problems can mean omitting certain kinds of problems entirely from a day's practice. Also, sometimes several problems in a set are related, and doing each of them helps the child understand the nature of the mathematical relationship (i.e. fractions, decimals and percents).

 

Jann in TX:

You will get many different answers to this question. There are many here on the boards who only give the odds or evens out...the PROBLEM with this is that Saxon DOES NOT design their program to be used in this manner (many other texts are designed this way). When you skip problems with Saxon you are setting yourself up for trouble later on...the problem sets do not have ‘evenly spaced’ concepts AND some “concepts†may ‘look’ the same to the untrained parent--BUT each problem is actually teaching/testing in a different area. By routinely skipping problems you are missing out on critical review. In most of the series--7/6 and above the practice problems often DIFFER from the original concept (the one noted by the little number). As the student’s knowledge and experience increases so does their ability to COMBINE concepts. The review problems are often more difficult/complex than the original practice problems.

I’m a certified Math teacher--turned homeschool Mother. I have taught/tutored Saxon for over 7 years (1st grade -Advanced Math). The vast majority of the students seeking tutoring in Pre-Algebra and above are those who routinely skipped problems--working only half of the problem set.

Skipping problems in the texts below 7/6 MAY work out well for some students as the concepts taught are very basic. From 7/6 on it is very important to work EVERY problem. If the problem set takes ‘too much time’ to do each day most likely the reason is that the student needs MORE practice!!!

I have a dd with some learning differences and she has had success working 15-20 problems a day--continuing on the next day without skipping any problems. She completes a little over 3 problem sets a week.

Some people are fine with their students making a “B†in math. It is sad that those students could be making “A’s†if only they had used the text the way it was designed!

It is probably obvious that I am passionate about this issue. When you choose to use a program such as Saxon that is designed with a complex spiral review it is important to use the program correctly--taking shortcuts will only shortchange your child. There may be other math programs where working only 10-15 problems a day is sufficient--but Saxon is definately NOT one of them.

IdaMay:

Like Jann, I am a teacher turned homeschooling mom. I have an education background in curriculum development, as well as testing and evaluation.

I, too have seen numerous students struggling, who had been using Saxon and skipping problems. I have not seen many struggling who were using the program as Saxon designed it.

As far as getting a “B†instead of getting an “A,†I agree with Jann. But along with this, I would say that the degree to which a student actually learns and the length which a student retains the material is greater when all problems in the problem set are completed.

Saxon interweaves so much into the problem set it is hard to demonstrate through words on a screen. Not only are the previous concepts reviewed, but they are expanded and combined with other aspects of math along the way. If you were to go through an entire level of Saxon Math and write down all the problems that related to a certain lesson, you would be amazed to see the progression and the development. Not only that, but Saxon often relates one lesson to another by having the students work problems which relate to each other across the lessons, as review is done. Glance through your answer key [especially easy where the problem set answers are in a chart form]. You will see that there are multiple answers that are the same value, but if you look at the problems you will see that the problems were reviewing or expanding different topics. [but the number answer is the same-- this skill of seeing this within the lesson is great for Algebraic thinking and more] These types of things also help the student see the relationships between percents/fractions/decimals and more.

It would be much more helpful to spread the lesson out over more than one day and cover the material a bit slower, than to rush through and skip part of the teaching and learning involved. You may find that your student improves their work time and can easily complete an entire lesson in an allotted time frame. [although I have come across some home schoolers who try to complete each subject in 30 minutes, which may be unrealistic for the Algebras or higher]

None of this is shared to imply anyone is doing their math lessons wrong, but only to share from experience and research what has shown to work or not to work in other situations, so you can make the choice for your student and your home school.

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Well, Ellie, thanks for that. Just as I was thinking to eliminate half the problems, I was having the exact same concerns your were pointing out. That is what makes Saxon work for us and to eliminate half the problems would not be the right solution for this curriculum with this particular problem.

 

I'm sorry, I don't mean to hijack but it seems like the OP and I are in the same boat.

 

Blessings,

 

Lisa

[katemary63]

 

FTR, it is *not* a good idea to skip problems in Saxon. The strength of its method is that every concept is touched on in every single lesson--built-in review, and if your dc is skipping problems he's missing the review.

 

Here are some comments about that:

 

 

 

Wow, that is impressive. All I can say is, my DD17 used Saxon exclusively for 6-8th grade, public school before that. She then taught herself algebra 1 and 2 and geometry using Lial's and Jacobs with absolutely NO help from me. She easily tested into college algebra at our community college and is doing well (midterm grade is 97%) as a concurrently enrolled student. She is NOT a math whiz, she's a history and lit kind of girl! But she doesn't stuggle to understand it either.

 

I PERSONALLY don't believe that EVERY student needs to do EVERY problem in the Saxon books. There are just too many problems for us. It's not that they take too long per se, it's that they aren't always necessary. DD NEVER did an entire practice set unless she made careless mistakes and I required her to. (seldom) I read ALL this long before I ever used Saxon. I just didn't agree FOR MY KID. Sometimes she did odds, sometimes evens, sometimes first half, sometimes last half, sometimes just the problems I listed for her. I always looked over the problems and when I noticed problems were continuations of the problems before, she had to do those. I probably didn't catch them ALL, but most.

 

How can someone say that every problem HAS to be done? Are they saying that students who just get math easily need the same amount of practice as those who don't get is easily? If not, are they saying that Saxon provides just the right amount of practice for a mathy kid? If so, wouldn't it be too little practice for a non-mathy kid? Does every kid need EXACTLY the same amount of repetition and practice? It just never made sense to me.

 

To address the fact that certain KINDS of problems will be missed too often and not practiced enough, I think that is easily prevented by paying attention to the lesson numbers indicated in front of each problem and how DC does on the tests (which kinds of problems she misses). For goodness sakes, there are SO many problems of each kind; you'd have to TRY in order to miss them all.

 

I think the Saxon texts are excellent and have already bought the first one for DD8. We've been using Abeka up till now. (I just didn't like the format of Saxon 1-3) I have no intention of having her do EVERY single problem. She would run away from home. :D I already eliminate many of her practice problems with Abeka and give her Key to... books instead. She HATES the repetition and needs NEW things to think about. Many people have quit Saxon and gone to some other curriculum BECAUSE of the large number of practice problems. Personally, I think the better solution is to carefully and systematically do fewer problems!

 

In the end, my advice to the OP was not about skipping Saxon problems; it was about adding additional work as a natural consequence of careless mistakes. I am just responding to the post quoted above. Everyone should do their research and make their own conclusions. Mine was to do less practice problems and it worked for us. I have absolutely no experience with the upper levels of Saxon and am NOT talking about them at all.

[katilac]

I"m not familiar with the Saxon text you're using, either; I'm thinking that you should call the publisher and find out what they recommend.

 

FTR, it is *not* a good idea to skip problems in Saxon. The strength of its method is that every concept is touched on in every single lesson--built-in review, and if your dc is skipping problems he's missing the review.

 

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This is true, but the newer editions have a number by each problem that refers to the lesson the problem is from. It's great - - I note missed problems each day, and, after a week or two, it's easy to see if there's a pattern of missed problems from a certain lesson.

 

It also makes it possible to skip some problems while still ensuring that they get practice from varied lessons - - of course, it takes MY time to do that.

[carlychan]

I really want to thank you all for your suggestions. I do skip some problems rarely when time is a concern. I'm not sure I will do that regularly. I do LOVE the idea of keeping track of the problems he is missing and giving him additional problems similar. This will probably "cure" his careless mistakes some. He can do very well for a few days then resort back to "bad habits."

 

I am looking forward to getting some more suggestions from you all.

 

Blessedtofoster/adopt: It does sound like we are in the same boat:) I'll let you know what we are going to do. As a side note, we are also a foster/adopt family hoping to adopt our foster son sometime this year. Email me if you are interested in chatting (about math or foster).

 

Carly