For those who feel SOTW is too christian...

[JABarney]

I consider my curriculum choices to be secular, yet have absolutely loved STOW 1, and wonder where in the program vol 1 or beyond, does it become too much? I am generally turned off by christian curriculum and content and would be disappointed to find out after purchasing that religion is presented as only christian or that the christian perspective is the only one/right one.

 

This is not to start a debate, but rather to inquire... am I in for a big surprise in SOTW 2?

 

Thanks!

[the floating cottage]

It's funny you ask that because from a christian point of view I was wishing it was from more of a christian viewpoint. So I guess it is the right mix for everyone. I love it enough not to change curriculums and just add in the exta I need.

[Lovedtodeath]

Wendy, how many volumes have you used?

[newlifemom]

Hmmm, I am a Christian, so I might not immediately notice if there was a Christian slant, however, I do know many Christians who do not like SOTW b/c it is too secular. It will discuss the history of the church (Greek/Catholic) and the reformation. It will also discuss Islam, and other major religious thought during the time period. IMO it is in no way proselytizing. Again, I am a Christian and maybe not the best one to answer you. HTH

[rainforest mama]

We are part way through Volume 4, and I haven't yet come to a point where it is "too Christian". We are agnostic, and DD10 would not listen to anything that she considered "Christian", so I would consider SOTW quite secular, with a bit of Church History thrown in where it is important to understanding. (For example, it's hard to explain the reformation without mentioning religion).

[Shasta Mom]

We educate secularly, are not christian, and have thoroughly enjoyed volumes 1 and 2. I plan on buying volume 3 also.

[WTMindy]

Year 1 is the most Christian of them all, I would say because it incorporates stories from the Bible.

[katilac]

I have used all 4 volumes. You are not in for a big surprise with Year 2; the 'too Christian' comments generally refer to Year 1, with some people objecting to the way that some bible stories, are presented as historical fact (while stories from other religions/traditions are presented as fables, myths, etc). Naturally, most stories from ancient cultures, biblical or not, lack outside documentation.

 

I think this was addressed in the second edition of the book, with stories and beliefs more evenly presented as arising from this or that culture/religion. I have the older edition, and it is made clear in the intro that the lack of written documents makes ancient history even more open to interpretation than more recent eras.

 

The books are quite respectful of different religions, imo, and the activity guide is pretty inclusive.

[nmoira]

 

I have used all 4 volumes. You are not in for a big surprise with Year 2; the 'too Christian' comments generally refer to Year 1, with some people objecting to the way that some bible stories, are presented as historical fact (while stories from other religions/traditions are presented as fables, myths, etc). Naturally, most stories from ancient cultures, biblical or not, lack outside documentation.

We're using SOTW as part of History Odyssey because I was not happy with the Christian focus of the SOTW Vol. 1 AG. I don't mind the Bible stories, but with the multi-page comic book Joseph and the interactive Ten Plagues of Egypt, etc. there didn't seem to be comparable coverage of other religious stories and myth cycles. IIRC, there was a single colouring page for Gilgamesh. However, my biggest beef has been in Vol. 2: The Crusades are presented almost entirely from a Christian, or western point of view. Yes, there is a section on Saladin, but he is presented as someone who was a scrupulously honorable man because he knew that was how to get followers, rather than this being inherent to his character. The whole thing rubbed me the wrong way.

[Kate in Arabia]

Like Moira mentioned, my main issue with SOTW is that it is Western-centric. We still use it (we're in vol 3), but I pre-read and make notes in the margins, and we use a lot of supplements. There were some chapters we simply skipped and did our own thing (on the same general topic).

 

What I really like about it is that it keeps you moving along in history (not getting bogged down in one area or another), and the writing style has been great for my kids in viewing history as a story, not a conglomeration of facts.

 

That I feel the need to tweak the story here and there is not a major thing, to me. I would probably need to do that with virtually any history curriculum out there.

[katilac]

We're using SOTW as part of History Odyssey because I was not happy with the Christian focus of the SOTW Vol. 1 AG. I don't mind the Bible stories, but with the multi-page comic book Joseph and the interactive Ten Plagues of Egypt, etc. there didn't seem to be comparable coverage of other religious stories and myth cycles. IIRC, there was a single colouring page for Gilgamesh. However, my biggest beef has been in Vol. 2: The Crusades are presented almost entirely from a Christian, or western point of view. Yes, there is a section on Saladin, but he is presented as someone who was a scrupulously honorable man because he knew that was how to get followers, rather than this being inherent to his character. The whole thing rubbed me the wrong way.

 

Am I the only person who found the 'hands-on' Ten Plagues of Egypt to be hysterical? I about wet my pants laughing at the thought of telling my kids "next, glue the horde of frogs to the page . . "

[nmoira]

 

Am I the only person who found the 'hands-on' Ten Plagues of Egypt to be hysterical? I about wet my pants laughing at the thought of telling my kids "next, glue the horde of frogs to the page . . "

I don't have a problem with the project itself. In fact, I did give it to DD, though she found the whole thing terribly inefficient, preferring to mete out all the punishments simultaneously. She reasoned that the Christian God is omniscient and therefore knew just what was going to happen and didn't see the point of drawing it out. Sorry... got sidetracked. My problem wasn't with the Bible stories in the AG at at, but rather the relative dearth of stories of other faiths, myth cycles and traditions. Why no comic book style Ganesha for example? The AG didn't cut it for our family because of this.

[KarenNC]

We are working our way through book 3 now, and have been overall fine with it. I agree that the "too Christian" aspect, in terms of presenting Hebrew and Christian scriptures as fact while others are usually prefaced with "ancient Greeks believed" or some such, is heaviest in book 1. We don't have our copy of book 1 anymore, so I can't give exact quotes. We also have the activity guide and have used it to varying extents.

 

In book 1 for many of the Bible stories that I felt got a lot more play than similar stories from other cultures, I would not do as much, and conversely might beef up other sections with more outside reading. For instance, we had the audio cds of the book, so we listened to the story of Joseph or Moses or Abraham but I skipped all the activities, etc for it as I didn't feel it was something that needed the level of emphasis that would have given it. I was going only for basic familiarity with the story for the sake of cultural literacy, exactly as I did with things like the Ananzi the Spider stories, Native American legends, etc. Condensing some sections while expanding others let us also get everything we wanted to do done in a year.

 

I've done something similar in book 3--- simply reading and doing the coloring pages with some of the chapters while adding in more activities and supplemental reading on American history. Overall, I don't know that I would have stuck with the AG after the first year, but my in-laws gave us the entire set of books, cds and AG when we started out, so I am using what we have.

Edited March 4, 2009 by KarenNC

[Laurel]

Am I the only person who found the 'hands-on' Ten Plagues of Egypt to be hysterical? I about wet my pants laughing at the thought of telling my kids "next, glue the horde of frogs to the page . . "

 

I have 10 plagues finger puppets. Yep, a pretty red one labeled BLOOD, and a solemn man/boy with his eyes shut for death of the firstborn. Here is the set I have. They're cute, in a really disturbing sort of way.

[JABarney]

Thanks everyone. I have really come to appreciate the diversity here on the boards! Really!

[katilac]

I have 10 plagues finger puppets. Yep, a pretty red one labeled BLOOD, and a solemn man/boy with his eyes shut for death of the firstborn. Here is the set I have. They're cute, in a really disturbing sort of way.

 

Dude! You have totally made my day! Plaque finger puppets are made out of awesome, lol.

 

They could be part of the "WTM in a box" package that is being discussed in another thread.

 

I am now off to amuse myself by imagining the 'pitch' used to sell this idea . . .

[Lovedtodeath]

LOL! I can't imagine how to put plague finger puppets into a secular WTM in a box.

[KarenNC]

I have 10 plagues finger puppets. Yep, a pretty red one labeled BLOOD, and a solemn man/boy with his eyes shut for death of the firstborn. Here is the set I have. They're cute, in a really disturbing sort of way.

 

It took me a bit to figure out the one puppet. I didn't recall a plague of Bozo the Clowns............;)

[Peela]

Not Christian here. I have used all 4 and not found them too Christian at all- and my kids are allergic to too many Christian references. They loved them. I dont remember anything I cringed at. It covers other religions well, and other cultures. Maybe not perfectly- I have heard people complain- but the benefits far, far outweigh any minor problematic details. SOTW just set such a wonderful theme for our homeschool for 4 years, I am very grateful for them.

[Haiku]

I solved the "too Christian" problem in SOTW 1 by just not reading those chapters. :001_smile:

 

My kids are well versed in Christianity, as we have many friends and family members who are Christian. My kids think Jesus is pretty cool. Our religion respects Jesus and has a place for him. We just don't believe he's the son of god. I don't have a problem with them knowing and learning about other religions, but I chose to cut out the Christian stuff in SOTW because I feel like, living in America, we are constantly being stampeded with Christianity, and I tool our ancient history year to make the focus on non-Christian religion.

 

It was really easy to just not read the Christian chapters ...

 

Tara

[MaggieFrances]

I found this thread beneficial so I am bumping it in case anyone had a similar inquiry!

 

LOL! I can't imagine how to put plague finger puppets into a secular WTM in a box.

Simple- treat it like any other activity going along with any other myth. :D

[Peela]

Secular here. SOTW has been wonderful for us because it gives some Christian history- which is after all just history- without seeming to come from a Christian perspective. The books are respectful and do not alienate secular people in general, although there is always someone who will get offended.

In fact I think SOTW is more "Christian" than the others, so no rude shock.

 

 

ETA Golly Gosh, it always throws me when old threads I have already responded to are resurrected! Is there a way to delete your own post when you realise you are a dill? :)

[Lovedtodeath]

Peela, I think your new post really added something. :)

 

Simple- treat it like any other activity going along with any other myth. :D

 

Oh, so far I don't have my activities based on myths.

[MaggieFrances]

Peela, I think your new post really added something. :)

 

 

 

Oh, so far I don't have my activities based on myths.

I guess it would be helpful if I read through that thread first (didn't know there was one). Just ignore me! :)

[Susie in CA]

We have used all 4 volumes and do not think it is christian. As someone said, the book does talk about christianity, but it also talks about other religions. We thought it is quite balanced.

 

Susie

[Annabel Lee]

I just read a review in The Book Peddlar's catalogue that lamented the *absence* of focus on God's hand in history in SOTW. I think it was written to the widest audience possible, and it can be considered too secular if you are looking for something Christian, or to have a Christian slant as seen by other poster's reviews above. It's very easy to supplement though, for those of either persuasion. :)

[Lovedtodeath]

Well, I've got to sat that I am very disappointed in the Jewish History. Exodus, destruction, nothing in-between?

[Hillary in KS]

I've used all 4, and haven't noticed a shift in tone from Book1 through 4. (The shift I see are more in the writing style. Subsequent books are written at a higher reading level, for example.)

 

If you've enjoyed Book 1, you'll likely be just fine with the other three. :)

[buddhabelly]

Well, I've got to sat that I am very disappointed in the Jewish History. Exodus, destruction, nothing in-between?

 

I am asking because it's not in your signature line. Anyway, I wanted to recommend "Josephus for Young Children" (that title might not be exactly right) to supplement Jewish history. I felt the same way as you about SOTW first, but then after I studied the complete history of the Jews on my own, I understood that it is tremendously difficult to distill for a child. If SWB wrote a book ONLY on that topic, she could do it. But not without giving short shrift to other continents and other cultures, I suspect. Also, the Activity Guide for SOTW 1 pointed us to FABULOUS books that helped round out the story of the Jewish community through time. There was one fabulous historical novel about the Macabee revolt, but I can't remember the name just now.

 

Julie

[Lovedtodeath]

I am using it, but DD is not. I did notice a mention of Israel in a couple of other chapters. I have the guide as well, but I am thinking the book about the Macabee revolt is way too mature for a 6 year old, if it is the one that I am thinking of. Thanks.

 

I would have included Solomon in SOTW 1. FWIW.

[buddhabelly]

I am using it, but DD is not. I did notice a mention of Israel in a couple of other chapters. I have the guide as well, but I am thinking the book about the Macabee revolt is way too mature for a 6 year old, if it is the one that I am thinking of. Thanks.

 

I would have included Solomon in SOTW 1. FWIW.

 

You mean because of his 700 wives and 300 concubines? (Kings 11:3). Just teasing. I think he was not included because no independent historical evidence (archeological evidence independent from the Bible) has been found yet concerning Solomon. In fact, if you read Josephus (not the one for young people, the original texts by Josephus the historian), it is quite eye-opening how much the historical record differs from the emphases placed in the Bible. Karen Armstrong's book, "The Bible" details the political reasons for what was included in the Bible.

 

Julie

[emmsmama]

I'm only in SOTW1, but I don't find it too Christian. I have the revised edition though so maybe that helps.

[Lovedtodeath]

You mean because of his 700 wives and 300 concubines? (Kings 11:3). Just teasing. I think he was not included because no independent historical evidence (archeological evidence independent from the Bible) has been found yet concerning Solomon. In fact, if you read Josephus (not the one for young people, the original texts by Josephus the historian), it is quite eye-opening how much the historical record differs from the emphases placed in the Bible. Karen Armstrong's book, "The Bible" details the political reasons for what was included in the Bible.

 

Julie

Thanks. I have been wanting to read Our Young Folk's Josephus. Much of our history of the Egyptians and Greeks is written by Egyptians and Greeks and includes their religious beliefs and myths mixed in with fact, including exagerations and untruths in order to glorify their kings. I don't see why Jewish history has a different set of rules.

 

Solomon got in trouble for that, and the fact that he was wrong is written for all to see. :D I wanted something on the glory of the kingdom of Israel at the time.

 

Just one chapter talking about Israel as an independent nation would be nice. Or a chapter about stomping out polytheism... since we felt it was important to learn about Egypt's changes in that regard.

[IsabelC]

I solved the "too Christian" problem in SOTW 1 by just not reading those chapters.

^^^That.

[Just Robyn]

We are working our way through book 3 now, and have been overall fine with it. I agree that the "too Christian" aspect, in terms of presenting Hebrew and Christian scriptures as fact while others are usually prefaced with "ancient Greeks believed" or some such, is heaviest in book 1. We don't have our copy of book 1 anymore, so I can't give exact quotes.

 

I can give exact quotes.

 

Chapter 2: Gods of Ancient Egypt

 

Egyptian stories about the gods often tried to explain why the Nile overflowed every year. One Egyptian story, or myth, tells about Osiris and his brother, Set. Here's the myth of Osiris as an Egyptian chils might have heard it from his mother long ago.

(followed by the story of Osiris)

 

Chapter 6: God Speaks to Abraham

 

The book of Genesis, in the Bible, tells us about Abraham:

(followed by a story about the Christian god talking to Abraham)

 

In chapter 2 it is made very clear that the story is a "myth." The word is used twice to preface the story. Chapter 6 should preface the story with something like, "Here is a myth about Abraham from The Bible," but it is very unclear with how SOTW is written that the story about Abraham is a Christian myth and not historical fact.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Well this really is ancient history, but I seem to remember that when the activity guide for SOTW 1 was being written, there was a request for projects sent out on the WTM boards. This would have to have been way back before 2001 on the old format boards. I remember lots of discussion of chicken mummies and mummified apples, etc. There may have even been some artistically talented board members who contributed coloring pages. So in part I think what you have in the activity guide reflects what people suggested.

 

I can see how someone might think that there should be more non-western myths. On the other hand I think a kid doing SOTW gets far more exposure to Persia and Africa and the Far East than many of their peers. There is only so much time in a year. You will always have to leave something out or only briefly touch on something else.

 

If you have a comic book activity page for Ganesh, you might offer it to PHP for the next revision.

[Lovedtodeath]

I can give exact quotes.

 

Chapter 2: Gods of Ancient Egypt

 

Egyptian stories about the gods often tried to explain why the Nile overflowed every year. One Egyptian story, or myth, tells about Osiris and his brother, Set. Here's the myth of Osiris as an Egyptian chils might have heard it from his mother long ago.

(followed by the story of Osiris)

 

Chapter 6: God Speaks to Abraham

 

The book of Genesis, in the Bible, tells us about Abraham:

(followed by a story about the Christian god talking to Abraham)

 

In chapter 2 it is made very clear that the story is a "myth." The word is used twice to preface the story. Chapter 6 should preface the story with something like, "Here is a myth about Abraham from The Bible," but it is very unclear with how SOTW is written that the story about Abraham is a Christian myth and not historical fact.

As far as I know, no one has complained about the secular, public school text The Human Odyssey. Here is how it is presented in the K-12 Human Odyssey for comparison. This is not in a blue box as the myths in the book are: "In many ways, the history of the Jewish people begins with Abraham, whom the Torah says was the first great Hebrew leader and the first to believe in one God.... Many scholars believe that Abraham was born in the city of Ur." Now, in this same chaper, "A Chosen People", there is a story in a blue box. Here is what it says. "How did they get to Egypt? The Torah says this surprising journey began with the treachery of eleven brothers. Her is a retelling of that famous story. (blue box contains story of Joseph and His Brothers.)

 

And here is an example of a myth in the blue box: "Known as the Epic of Gilgamesh, the ong poem is one of the world's oldest pieces of literature.... Let's read a brief retelling of episodes from the story of Gilgamesh to see what kind of heroes and virtues the Sumerians admired: (Now the Epic of Gilgamesh begins inside of the blue box.)

 

FWIW, I prefer not to base my projects on myths or Bible stories, but on evidence of how people lived in the various civilizations at the time.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Lovedtodeath
run-on sentences

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I don't find it too Christian at all. Sure it talks about Christianity, but from a historical perspective. It also talks about Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. I don't think anyone can fairly accuse SOTW as being too Christian.

 

 

:iagree: That actually surprises me to hear that of SOTW. MOH is Christian but certainly not SOTW

[Audrey]

We're using SOTW as part of History Odyssey because I was not happy with the Christian focus of the SOTW Vol. 1 AG. I don't mind the Bible stories, but with the multi-page comic book Joseph and the interactive Ten Plagues of Egypt, etc. there didn't seem to be comparable coverage of other religious stories and myth cycles. IIRC, there was a single colouring page for Gilgamesh. However, my biggest beef has been in Vol. 2: The Crusades are presented almost entirely from a Christian, or western point of view. Yes, there is a section on Saladin, but he is presented as someone who was a scrupulously honorable man because he knew that was how to get followers, rather than this being inherent to his character. The whole thing rubbed me the wrong way.

 

 

That is my experience as well (We have used all 4 volumes). IMO, treating bible stories as history is ridiculous. I didn't so much mind the way the chapters on the tribes of Israel and beginnings of christianity were presented, but I did mind the fact that there are SO MANY chapters focusing on specifically christian figures, and doing it with a decidedly "all christians are so lovely" viewpoint. As a PP pointed out, many other religions are covered, but they always presented with a "but" or two regarding the supposed character of the figures and events, while there was little to none of that when discussing christian figures and events.

 

I think your perspective on SOTW as a secular curriculum will depend upon how secular you want your curriculum. I would prefer mine be completely religion-free. If I want to study religions, I do so with texts on religion. YMMV.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Audrey

[Audrey]

LOL! I can't imagine how to put plague finger puppets into a secular WTM in a box.

 

Please, don't. Those are very disturbing puppets.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Please, don't. Those are very disturbing puppets.

:lol: This is an old thread, I have to go back and read these posts.

[LauraQ]

I have used all 4 volumes once, and have re-used Volume I and part of II once more so far. We are Christian, but I shy away from overtly Christian texts as many are too dogmatic or preachy for my taste. I will use Christian texts, but am always ready to refute points where we disagree, and to point out bias in the text lest my children mistake it as simple statement of fact when it is not. I have no qualms about using SOTW and honestly don't 'get' the idea that it's biased. The only thing I can think is that some don't like references to the bible as a historical document (in Vol. I), but I think this is only defensible if one also rejects all other religious texts from antiquity as being illegitimate sources of historical information.

[Mama Lynx]

We are not Christian, and had absolutely no trouble with SOTW.

[NanceXToo]

So far we've only completed 9 chapters of Volume 1 and as a not-particularly-religious Jew I have not found it to be "too Christian" by any means at all so far (which is good, because I don't want anything with a strong Christian slant to it either).

 

SOTW is our summer project. I'll pick it up again in June after the school year is over and will continue volume 1 from there. But based on what we've done so far I'm not expecting to have any problems with it.

[mcconnellboys]

Gee, I always thought that volume I was the most "Christian" of all of them, LOL.....

[Ravin]

For me, it was treating Bible Stories as history, but also in the very first chapter where hunter-gatherers are called "nomads" as if that's the same thing. From an anthropological standpoint it was beyond fictitious and showed a bias I found very distasteful.

[mcconnellboys]

I guess I never thought of it that way. To me, the Nag Hammadi documents and others are primary sources, so I have no problem with those stories being treated as history any more than I do using other very ancient documents. We just can't know how accurate most of those documents might be....

 

I majored in anthropology, and I can't say that classing hunter-gatherers as nomadic raised any flags for me, either, but I'm old so perhaps anthropology has changed..... A nomadic people is an itinerant people, wandering from place to place, generally with the seasons (but for other reasons, as well). I would class all prehistoric peoples as nomadic until the dawn of farming brought about a more sedentary lifestyle....