More on Latin--but what I really need is a Big Picture book

[Alana in Canada]

Not a big picture book--but a "Big Picture" book.

 

Something that will lay out the structure of the Latin language for me, explain it's wherefores and whys. It'll answer questions like just what is a declension, anyway and why does Latin have them? What are all the cases, Genitive, Ablative, Dative, etc...and that's only two questions that have come up while we're doing out Lively Latin course.

 

 

It's a great program, but it isn't good at explaining anything, really, and certainly not to someone, like me, who has never taken Latin nor grammar.

 

I'll try and give an example. We were going over the first set of endings or declension. 1) I assume that any ending can be applied to any word, so I was rather taken aback when I found out that the declensions themselves have gender. I thought the words had gender. My mom, who took a bit of latin, explained to me that there are no words for "ewe" and "ram"--that the word for sheep gets an ending and becomes one or the other. That's the kind of information I need. I hope that makes things clearer.

 

I haven't had my coffee yet, I hope that made sense.

I've read Plaid Dad's LCL and Tracey Simms, "Climbing to Parnasuss"--those obviously don't discuss the language as a language.

 

Is there anything on-line? I doubt our library would have any books.

 

PS. I have considered teaching myself Latin but there's no way I am going to get up to speed that way for the kids' lessons!

 

Thanks.

[Beth in Central TX]

I would recommend English Grammar for Students of Latin by Goldman & Szymanski (ISBN 0-934034-19-2).

[Beth in Central TX]

You can pick one up at Amazon for less than $10.

 

http://www.amazon.com/English-Grammar-Students-Latin-Learning/dp/0934034192/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1203612763&sr=11-1

 

If you look at the table of contents, I think it will address all of the Latin questions you have.

[Alana in Canada]

Thank you, Beth. I read what was there, and I'm still not sure.

I've never ordered from Amazon--getting things across the border tends to be a chancey and expensive enterprise.

 

I'll have to do some digging around here for it first--

[Melissa B]

You may want to join an international book swap. I picked up English Grammar for Students of Latin off Book Mooch. I have found this to be the cheapest way to pick up books (both nationally and internationally.) :)

[Beth in Central TX]

I'm sorry; I know it's in your board name, but I forgot you were in Canada. I hope you can find it some other way. It's been a big help to me as I teach Latin.

[mrdawson]

Hello. That book, English Grammar for Students of Latin, really is helpful. You may also benefit from a more adult-learner book, such as Wheelock's (readily available and inexpensive) or Learn to Read Latin (by Keller and Russell, greatly superior to Wheelock's, more money).

 

You need some additional resources beyond Lively Latin, if that book tells you that a given declension has a gender. You were right -- each word has a gender, not the declension. The words comprising the first declension are so predominantly feminine, those in the second so predominantly masculine and neuter, that we could speak of those declensions as corresponding to those genders. There are exceptions in each of those declensions, not to mention the third declension (most nouns) which includes all three genders. Gender is a characteristic of the words, not the declensions. Think of a declension as a group of nouns which follow the same pattern in their morphology.

 

I believe your mother's comments are a little misleading, as well. In our modern age, we are offended at the thought of a masculine word being applied to a feminine person or animal, and vice versa. The Romans were not troubled by this; they did not necessarily use a feminine form of an otherwise masculine word for animals, or even people, who were feminine. And again, vice versa. These details are neither here nor there at your present level of study, but perhaps worth having in the back of one's mind.

 

Mark

[Alana in Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Dawson.

 

So, certain words and not others belong to the declensions? So not all words will take all endings? I was thinking that they did--that all the endings could be applied to any word. But our vocabulary makes more sense if that's not so. Lively Latin has us memorize it this way: e.g., terra, terrae (f)

 

My only foreign language background is French--where masculine and feminine words STAY that way (they don't change) and only verbs took endings--and they too are grouped (if I remember my Bescherelle rightly--but, it always seemed to me in a rather ad hoc fashion.

 

Thanks for all your help. I'm going to see what else I can dig up.

[LisaNY]

Alana, I think the best standard grammar/translation text for self-study is Henle. It gives the self-learner manageable doses of vocabulary and grammar. The grammar is explained in a very clear manner throughout the text.

 

Wheelock's, IMO, is not as self-learner friendly as Henle. You are hit hard and heavy with vocabulary and grammar right from the start. It is difficult enough to learn the grammar without having to manage long lists of new vocabulary all of the time. It is counterproductive to the learning process.

 

To compensate for Henle's smaller vocabulary, you can pick up a copy of either Cambridge or Oerberg's Lingua Latina for practice in reading "Latin as Latin". This way, the vocabulary (and grammar) are learned within the context of a running, familiar storyline which really aids retention.

[Beth in SW WA]

You were right -- each word has a gender, not the declension. The words comprising the first declension are so predominantly feminine, those in the second so predominantly masculine and neuter, that we could speak of those declensions as corresponding to those genders. There are exceptions in each of those declensions, not to mention the third declension (most nouns) which includes all three genders. Gender is a characteristic of the words, not the declensions. Think of a declension as a group of nouns which follow the same pattern in their morphology.

 

 

Mark

 

Mark, Welcome! A new Latin expert here -- How wonderful! So many of us have a plethora of questions for the resident Latin teachers and those w/ lots of experience. May I ask you what is your curriculum of choice -- and -- the ages of your kiddos?

 

Thanks for chiming in. My favorite threads here on this board deal w/ Latin since I'm so new to this subject.

[mrdawson]

So, certain words and not others belong to the declensions? So not all words will take all endings? I was thinking that they did--that all the endings could be applied to any word. But our vocabulary makes more sense if that's not so. Lively Latin has us memorize it this way: e.g., terra, terrae (f)

 

My only foreign language background is French--where masculine and feminine words STAY that way (they don't change) and only verbs took endings--and they too are grouped

 

When we talk of "declensions", we are primarily talking about nouns. (Adjectives also decline, using one set of noun endings or another.) Any given noun is in one of five declensions. Nouns don't jump from one to another (a few odd exceptions, domus, filia, dea, which take endings from more than one declension). In English, most nouns have two forms -- singular and plural. In Latin, most nouns have ten forms -- five sing. and five pl.

 

Adjectives and pronouns also decline. Prepositions, conjunctions, adverbs do not change (a few exceptions).

 

Verbs will conjugate more fully than in English.

 

Every noun has a gender. It's best to think of each word as having one gender and never changing, but there are a few words that can appear as masculine or feminine (e.g. civis).

 

Lastly, it IS good to learn "terra, terrae, f." -- nom. sing., gen. sing., and gender. Good habit. Gotta go.

[Alana in Canada]

Nouns don't jump from one to another (a few odd exceptions, domus, filia, dea, which take endings from more than one declension).

 

I think I've got it now. You can imagine my despair thinking all the nouns took all the endings! I see. The declensions are simply a convenient way of grouping all the nouns which take a particular "set" of endings.

 

Would you recommend Henle, then, with Lingua Latina, for self study? I had been doing something available on-line, (Latin Book One) but I was tripped up very early on and became discouraged.

 

Thank you so much.

[Dee in MI]

Here is a nice summary that helps me. I don't do the Dowling Method, but this helped me get my brain around how the language works:

 

http://rci.rutgers.edu/~wcd/Latin.htm

[Alana in Canada]

Dee--that was fabulous.

Thank you.

[mrdawson]

May I ask you what is your curriculum of choice -- and -- the ages of your kiddos?

 

I think I've got it now. You can imagine my despair thinking all the nouns took all the endings! I see. The declensions are simply a convenient way of grouping all the nouns which take a particular "set" of endings.

 

Would you recommend Henle, then, with Lingua Latina, for self study?

 

Yes -- declensions are groups of nouns which take the same sets of endings -- that's it. As hard as it is for us to imagine, a child growing up in a Latin-speaking household 2000 years ago would use all of these forms correctly without having to learn the chants, etc. (Assuming their parents spoke correct Latin.) We get a slight glimpse of this when we consider how naturally we use our personal pronouns ("he/him", "she/her", etc.).

 

I have no experience with Henle, though I do use his grammar. Seems well liked by many. Oerberg's Lingua Latina... The initial thrill of this book has still not worn off for me. I have had it only a few weeks. I love it so far.

 

Regarding text recommendations... I think one should ask what the end goal is. If it is to attain some level of real reading ability, then the text should at least attempt that (and the authors should themselves be at an advanced level). This would rule out the Martha Wilson Primers and The Latin Road to English Grammar, and perhaps a few others.

 

The most commonly weak characteristic in Latin texts/workbooks is a lack of sufficient drill work on isolated forms. When a new form is introduced, the student should drill both on producing it and on identifying it, first in isolation, then relative isolation, then in a larger context.

 

For example, when I wanted my 4th graders to learn to quickly and (eventually) instantaneously identify which word in a sentence was nominative and which was accusative, we began by declining nouns (which they could already do fairly well). Then, I gave them a list of about 40 nouns -- all either nom. sing. or acc. sing. (only masc. and fem.). The next, a similar drill -- just identify which ones are nom., which acc. Then again, including plural forms. The effect: A few students got it almost immediately, most were becoming quite adept after the second "long" drill, and even the slowest, most challenged student was doing it with ease by the end of the third day. And being 4th graders, they were not bored by this but found it a joy.

 

Only one text I have seen has a lengthy amount of drill work. Learn to Read Latin, by Russell and Keller (a college text). It also has very thorough descriptions and explanations of the grammar, and much else to commend it. It is weak, however, it giving the students reading exercises that they can truly read (not decipher).

 

The age of my kiddos... I have none, but I teach about 30, 4th through 11th grade. And I have a dog and a foster dog.

(http://www.flickr.com/photos/markrandalldawson/)

[Alana in Canada]

I appreciate the emphasis on the drill. The site Dee recommended above said to memorize the tables in Wheelock and then write everything out 200 times. Then she/he recommended tackling Lingua Latina.

My goal? To read Latin and help my kids. What else could it be?

 

We have been doing oral drill on the two "chants" we know--it hasn't been explained quite yet what they are--they are just endings.

 

 

-a -ae

-ae -arum (macron on a)

-ae -is (macron on i)

-am -as (macron on a)

-a -is (macrons on a and i)

 

and

-o or m (macron on o) -mus

-s -tis

-t -nt

 

Oh, duh. The first chant is the first declension. (Looking ahead to Lesson 2) Still have no clue what the second set is. (Lively Latin is available as a download so I only print the lessons as we need them. They take an awful lot of time and ink to print!)

 

They decline their first noun Monday. (That sounds very odd. "Would you like a noun?" "No, thanks.")

 

But I like the idea of your "what case is this noun?" drills...they would find it fun--like decoding a puzzle.

 

Do you do this after they have been introduced to all five declensions or as you do each one?

 

I hope you don't mind all these questions. It's great to "speak" with you.

[nmoira]

But I like the idea of your "what case is this noun?" drills...they would find it fun--like decoding a puzzle.

 

Do you do this after they have been introduced to all five declensions or as you do each one?

Lively Latin covers only the first two declensions and uses only nominative case and ablative "of place where" (the ablative noun is the object of a locational preposition like "under" or "in"). I don't know the planned scope and sequence of LL2, though I suspect at the very least it will add the accusative case.

 

The second chant (-o/m -s -t -mus -tis -nt) is verb endings: 1st, 2nd and 3rd person singular and plural.

[Alana in Canada]

You're kidding. That's as far as we get in 34 weeks?

Good grief. We'd better know them upside down, inside out and backwards, then, without any supplementing from me!

 

(Well, maybe except for a stab at Mr. Dawson's drills!)

 

Oh well.

 

We nearly died with Prima Latina.

[nmoira]

 

You're kidding. That's as far as we get in 34 weeks?

It's definitely a gentle introduction, but to be fair: present, imperfect, and future verb tenses are covered (both regular verb endings, and the irregular "to be").

[Alana in Canada]

Thanks nmoira. We're not switching 'til we are done--and gentle suits us just fine at the moment!

 

It's done a great job of making Latin interesting to the kids--which after our horrible experience with PL is saying quite a lot!

 

It is, for now, just what I wanted for them.

 

Oh, hey, what is that U.S. colony that was started "with the idea of giving people who got into trouble a new start?" (Lesson 2, The Capture of the Sabine Women)

 

Starts with a "G" apparently.

We're stumped.

[nmoira]

 

Oh, hey, what is that U.S. colony that was started "with the idea of giving people who got into trouble a new start?" (Lesson 2, The Capture of the Sabine Women)

The answer is Georgia... but I only know this because we're long past Chapter 2 -- I'm a fellow Canadian (though my US history is far better than most Americans' Canadian history). :) There is a downloadable answer key for each chapter.

[Dee in MI]

I appreciate the emphasis on the drill. The site Dee recommended above said to memorize the tables in Wheelock and then write everything out 200 times. Then she/he recommended tackling Lingua Latina.

My goal? To read Latin and help my kids. What else could it be? QUOTE]

 

Don't worry too much about the copying. And I don't use Lingua Latina, either. (Though I own it a thumb through it sometimes. I've read the first few chapters.) I use Henle. When I'm learning a new table, I copy it out several times, but you'll figure out how you best memorize.

 

I just like the explanation of the basics on that site.

[Beth in SW WA]

 

The age of my kiddos... I have none, but I teach about 30, 4th through 11th grade. And I have a dog and a foster dog.

(http://www.flickr.com/photos/markrandalldawson/)

 

Thanks, Mark. Where do you teach? Love the pics of your dog!

[mrdawson]

-o or m (macron on o) -mus

-s -tis

-t -nt

 

But I like the idea of your "what case is this noun?" drills...they would find it fun--like decoding a puzzle.

 

Do you do this after they have been introduced to all five declensions or as you do each one?

 

 

Thanks, Mark. Where do you teach? Love the pics of your dog!

 

Hello, all. I teach at Liberty Classical Academy, in a suburb of Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN. http://www.libertyclassicalacademy.org/

 

This chant -- "o/m, s, t, mus, tis, nt" -- I'm glad you are learning the "m". This will help later on. These are the "personal endings", indicating who is performing the verb. In the present tense, this are the only endings (o, not m, in 1st person sing.). The endings you will learn for the imperfect and future tenses will be comprised of an "infix" indicating the tense plus the personal endings:

 

Imperfect: (long a)

ba + m = bam ba + mus = bamus

ba + s = bas ba + tis = batis

ba + t = bat ba + nt = bant

 

Future:

bi + o = bo bi + mus = bimus

bi + s = bis bi + tis = bitis

bi + t = bit bi + nt = bunt

 

There are a few obvious exceptions.

 

It is also good to know the "long vowel rule" (applying only to verbs): When a long vowel is in the last syllable, and the syllable (word) ends in "t", "nt", or "m", the long vowel becomes short. Thus the amo, amas, amat chant, and the bam, bas, bat chant. The macron appearing and disappearing is not random. This rule will help to remember when it stays long, when it goes short.

[Alana in Canada]

Really?

That's cool.

 

How logical.

 

This is a language? Why should a language be regular? And as regular as this Latin stuff appears to be.

 

What a mess English seems by comparison.

 

(I do realise that we haven't discussed too many exceptions, but I'm beginning to think that perhaps there aren't that many. But please, don't disillusion me yet:))

[Beth in SW WA]

Hello, all. I teach at Liberty Classical Academy, in a suburb of Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN. http://www.libertyclassicalacademy.org/

 

 

 

Mark, I looked at the website and I didn't see the specific Latin programs you use there. Do you create your own?

 

How do your students do on the Natl. Latin Exam (if you administer it)?

 

Thanks again.

[mrdawson]

What Latin curricula do we use... Funny you should ask. We are right in the middle of reevaluating what we have used so far (this is the school's fifth year).

 

Like many ACCS schools, the school started off with Martha Wilson Latin Primers, 3rd - 5th. Last year, they added The Latin Road to English Grammar for 6th - 8th.

 

This is my first year at Liberty. For the previous three years, I was at Hope Academy, a wonderful Christian school serving the urban poor in Minneapolis. (www.hopeschool.org) At Hope, we used the Latin Primers in 4th and 5th, then Ecce Romani in 6th-8th -- which I was very pleased with.

 

We (at Liberty) are unanimous in our dissatisfaction with what we are achieving with Latin Primers and Latin Road. Most of our students don't demonstrate a knowledge of Latin that corresponds to how long they've been studying it. What goal do we wish to drive at? We desire a plan that encompasses a unified, cumulative sequence of study, beginning in 3rd and concluding in 8th, that imparts to our students a genuine ability to read Latin. Reading is the goal -- all other benefits are derived best when the student is truly progressing in a substantive knowledge of the Latin language.

 

Toward that end, we are evaluating and considering: Latin for Children, Ecce Romani, and Lingua Latina per se Illustrata. We will probably end up with LfC in 3rd through 4th or 5th (or maybe even keeping Latin Primers), and then use Ecce Romani or perhaps LL beginning 5th or 6th and continuing through 8th. If I was more bold, I would campaign for us attempting Lingua Latina beginning in 3rd.

 

All of these texts require significant supplement in the area of drill on particular forms. That type of supplement is the easiest to produce. To create additional reading -- either individual sentence for translating or passages for reading -- is the most time consuming and difficult to create. LL needs nothing in that area, Ecce needs some, and LfC more, but the publisher has produced readers to accompany the workbooks.

 

We are about to take the Natl. Latin Exam on Friday, and I am anticipating poor results. The Latin Road has not served us well. I suppose if we wished to study English grammar using Latin, then it would be more satisfying. With Ecce, at my old school, my students did quite well on the NLE.

[Beth in SW WA]

Thanks, Mark. Great info. I hope you find a program that suits you and your students well. That seems to be the story of my life lately -- and many others here: What exactly are our Latin goals for our kiddos AND how do we get there?

 

You and Andrew Campbell would get along great! He is Plaid Dad on the boards. Have you read The Latin Centered Curriculum?

 

Happy Monday :)

[mrdawson]

I have not YET read The Latin Centered Curriculum, though I have checked his site out. I need to read it -- sounds very good.