Trivium Academy Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 She's been in there two weeks and this week has been, 'ds4' did not have a good day today, he....[enter complaint]. Ds4 can be a bit challenging but everyday? With someone new? So I called and talked to the preK director and she said to give the new teacher and ds4 some time. WHen the new teacher asked me how I 'handle' ds4 at home I told her that I when a situation crops up, I get down on his level and talk to him about remaining as calm as I can. I told her when he's riled up, I'm super calm and patient and speak with a soothing but firm voice and offer him choices instead of ordering him around. I sat in his class with him this morning for an hour to show him how to behave since that seems to be the problem as per the new teacher. There are too many kids for just one teacher, I would say about 18 but I didn't count them. Ds4 is just one of the all-boys in the class. One child was climbing on TOP of the group table as soon as the teacher had her head turned, and it was obvious to me that the teacher was overwhelmed, moving from one conflict to another. What bothers me most is not the management of the class but the new teacher's no-nonsense approach to the kids. She barks orders at them, there is no compassion or feeling in her tone or what she says. "John, get on your square. Melissa, stop touching your face." etc. On the other hand, the kids were flocking to me- wanting to lean on me, sit on my lap, read them stories (this was inbetween learning activities) while the teacher was working with the lagging behind students. They actually started fighting about who could sit near me, there are squares marked off with tape on a carpet and they are supposed to sit in 'their' square quietly. Ha. I calmed 11 children down and satisified them within seconds reading 3 books of their choosing, while the teacher worked with the other 6-7 kids still at their tables. This is a Montesorri preschool but with this new teacher, I feel like it's more of a daycare. Ds4's previous teacher moved to another room b/c that teacher was transferred (military) to another state and they played musical teachers within the school. Do I DO anything? Ds4 does need to learn to work well with others in a group setting and he did very well while I was there. Do I comment to the director that a helper for the room would benefit everyone? Do I leave it alone? I already commented to the director that I feel this new teacher is a bit cold so I don't want to revisit that so soon, I'll mention it again later if I feel I need to. I know my own ds4 takes direct orders as a challenge, esp. after I've changed to a more positive discipline style- he's used to his choices! Open to suggestions, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KristenS Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Are there state regulations about how many children can be in a room with one teacher? I know around here, 18 kids to one teacher wouldn't be okay... at least not in the daycares and mother's day out programs I've seen. Maybe other schools have other rules. Anyway, I think one adult to 18 four-year-olds is a disaster waiting to happen, no matter how good the teacher. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partyof5 Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) Jessica, Doesn't sound like Montessori style with 18 kids and one teacher?! I would speak to the director. Your concern is valid, and I wonder if anyone has observed this new teacher yet to assist her with this transition? Actually, these numbers seem high for ANY preschool setting. I think the issue of "coldness" on the part of the teacher would likely be a non-issue if it weren't for other conditions, so I'd speak to the classroom numbers & need for assistance before I'd discuss the teaching style just yet... Edited February 6, 2009 by partyof5 had more to add Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trivium Academy Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 I can't find the law right away but I've read some things online that says the ratio should be 1:10. I'll have to check into that, but I also think that is for the free public preschool program according to the things I read online. I'll make it a point to count the kids (or their names on their chairs) next week but I know for sure there are 4 tables of 4 seats and one larger table that holds either 5-6. Even 16 is too much in my opinion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Maybe give it a few more weeks. The teacher may just need to adjust her teaching style to what the kids are used to, or vice versa. If that doesn't work, could you move your son to a different class? Is there an option to move your son to the class his old teacher is now teaching? I agree that 18 4 yo's is way too much for one teacher! Here in CA our limit is 12 kids per teacher, but most preschools have better ratios than even this. Dd4's preschool class has 12 kids and two teachers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trivium Academy Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 I'm definitely going to follow up on the ratio! That would change the entire dynamic if there were two teachers in there. Thank you all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumping In Puddles Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 First thing, I would talk to the director about the number of children. Many children in one Montessori classroom is normal but having only one teacher for all those children is not a "normal" Montessori classroom. For example my dd's class has 28 kids but there are at least 6 teachers at any given time and it is wonderful! 3 Full time Montessori trained teachers and 3-4 parent part time helpers (usually mom's trying to work off some tuition). I wonder if the new teacher is Montessori trained? My son had a teacher in his classroom last year that barked orders at the kids. She came from a local preschool (daycare!) and that is how things were done. The school got so many complaints about the new teacher (including me), they reassigned her (and she enrolled herself in a Montessori program to become certified). You may not be the only one and the director may not know about the problem. Good Luck! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I always hated dealing with teachers for that same reason. My older son is ADHD and was always a bit of a handful, but when I would observe him with other kids, he may have been the loudest, but he was certainly not the only one talking. He may have been running the fastest, but he was not the only one out of his seat. I always hated for the end of the day to come and constanty hear that "today was not a good day." At home, most days ARE good days. It makes me sick to even think back to those preschool/ps days. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I can't find the law right away but I've read some things online that says the ratio should be 1:10. I'll have to check into that, but I also think that is for the free public preschool program according to the things I read online. I'll make it a point to count the kids (or their names on their chairs) next week but I know for sure there are 4 tables of 4 seats and one larger table that holds either 5-6. Even 16 is too much in my opinion! There is going to have to be a ratio to be licensed. There has to be.... In CA when DD was in school it varied depending on the type of license - if they had an infant license, they had to break it up different. http://daycare.com/southcarolina/ UGH, according to that link - they are within ratio. YUCK..... :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riada Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I don't think you should stand by and allow your son to be in an over crowded classroom with a teacher that hasn't adjusted and can't seem to find a compassionate way of dealing with the children, BUT I also wanted to throw the thought out there that the more the teacher feels threatened (i.e. having the director speak to her about your call, the child/teacher ratio being brought up, etc.) the more your son might get negative attention from her. I have many friends that work as teachers and as much as we would all like to think they are there because they love children and treat them all the same it just isn't the case. They want a paycheck. So back to my original comment, I don't think you should be silent about it but I wanted to remind you to be careful of how you approach this. The more you go behind her back to try to solve it the more threatened she will feel. If, however, you keep her aware of what your thoughts and feelings are in a gentle manner she might take it better and hopefully the problem will be resolved and your son will have a better pre-k experience. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partyof5 Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 One last thought and then I'll stop ;)... Is this new teacher Montessori trained & certified? I'm wondering about the school's standards for this...this would be a gentle way of addressing your concerns about the teacher's manner with the kids? Our Montessori experience was SO calm that I felt like a one-girl party-Mom when I visited. They spoke quietly and gently and expected excellent behavior...which they got! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 She's been in there two weeks and this week has been, 'ds4' did not have a good day today, he....[enter complaint]. Ds4 can be a bit challenging but everyday? With someone new? So I called and talked to the preK director and she said to give the new teacher and ds4 some time. WHen the new teacher asked me how I 'handle' ds4 at home I told her that I when a situation crops up, I get down on his level and talk to him about remaining as calm as I can. I told her when he's riled up, I'm super calm and patient and speak with a soothing but firm voice and offer him choices instead of ordering him around. I sat in his class with him this morning for an hour to show him how to behave since that seems to be the problem as per the new teacher. There are too many kids for just one teacher, I would say about 18 but I didn't count them. Ds4 is just one of the all-boys in the class. One child was climbing on TOP of the group table as soon as the teacher had her head turned, and it was obvious to me that the teacher was overwhelmed, moving from one conflict to another. What bothers me most is not the management of the class but the new teacher's no-nonsense approach to the kids. She barks orders at them, there is no compassion or feeling in her tone or what she says. "John, get on your square. Melissa, stop touching your face." etc. On the other hand, the kids were flocking to me- wanting to lean on me, sit on my lap, read them stories (this was inbetween learning activities) while the teacher was working with the lagging behind students. They actually started fighting about who could sit near me, there are squares marked off with tape on a carpet and they are supposed to sit in 'their' square quietly. Ha. I calmed 11 children down and satisified them within seconds reading 3 books of their choosing, while the teacher worked with the other 6-7 kids still at their tables. This is a Montesorri preschool but with this new teacher, I feel like it's more of a daycare. Ds4's previous teacher moved to another room b/c that teacher was transferred (military) to another state and they played musical teachers within the school. Do I DO anything? Ds4 does need to learn to work well with others in a group setting and he did very well while I was there. Do I comment to the director that a helper for the room would benefit everyone? Do I leave it alone? I already commented to the director that I feel this new teacher is a bit cold so I don't want to revisit that so soon, I'll mention it again later if I feel I need to. I know my own ds4 takes direct orders as a challenge, esp. after I've changed to a more positive discipline style- he's used to his choices! Open to suggestions, There's your answer. Clone yourself. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumping In Puddles Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 One last thought and then I'll stop ;)... Is this new teacher Montessori trained & certified? I'm wondering about the school's standards for this...this would be a gentle way of addressing your concerns about the teacher's manner with the kids? Our Montessori experience was SO calm that I felt like a one-girl party-Mom when I visited. They spoke quietly and gently and expected excellent behavior...which they got! Exactly my thought! And the one time I had a problem with a teacher it was because she was not Montessori certified. Montessori is so calm it is amazing to see 25+ kids "working". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddhabelly Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Oh, I'm so sorry. I am guessing there is no "other" classroom for this age group at the school? I know the decision was not yours to send him to preschool. I must quote you on one teeny, tiny thing: "Ds4 does need to learn to work well with others in a group setting." Well, yeah, but not at age four! There is no situation in his adult life which will call for him to survive, much less enjoy, 16 other people. He can learn this in high school or in other homeschooling activities, and perhaps by that time his natural four-year-old ENERGY LEVEL will have calmed a bit. My son went to preschool, and the teachers were SO concerned because he didn't really participate in group play. (He found their imaginative play too violent.) He would work on projects by himself or with one other child. He's still like that, and I think it's fine. He doesn't see the point when groups of boys want to get together and pretend to destroy each other. Now, if you want to build a transcontinental railroad that links to the Pony Express, he's your man.... Yes, I got off track. I would ask to see her Montessori certification if I were you. Like other posters, this is NOT what I have seen from Montessori teachers. I have seen them speak quietly, gently, and VERY infrequently. And your son's age group is when they are supposed to be developing this remarkable (good) behavior that other posters have mentioned! Yikes. Also, I'm surprised they let you visit. Usually our Montessori doesn't allow any parental involvement at all. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klmama Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I'm so sorry. We had to eliminate from consideration the "best" pre-school (and the most convenient) because of a teacher with the same kind of attitude. The children were learning, certainly. She was very organized, very "educating," but just cold. There was no way my busy little boy was going to get along with her style, even with helpers in the room. We actually chose a preschool that was much farther away, simply because the teachers were friendlier and the expectations were age-appropriate. Even on problem days, they found something good to say in addition to relating the concerns. If you can't get this worked out, is there a way out of the contract so you could switch preschools? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Do I DO anything? Ds4 does need to learn to work well with others in a group setting and he did very well while I was there. Do I comment to the director that a helper for the room would benefit everyone? Do I leave it alone? I already commented to the director that I feel this new teacher is a bit cold so I don't want to revisit that so soon, I'll mention it again later if I feel I need to. I know my own ds4 takes direct orders as a challenge, esp. after I've changed to a more positive discipline style- he's used to his choices! Open to suggestions, If this is a Montessori school, then you must be paying tuition. If you are paying tuition, then you should definitely bring your concerns to the Principal or equivalent. You are paying for your child to get an education, not for daycare. Also, why does he need to learn how to work in a group? Just curious why this is such an important life skill (not being snarky, but tone is really hard for me to convey online). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 There are several things in your post that make me question whether your school is really a Montessori school. It is true that Montessori school classrooms have a larger ratio than is typical. The idea is that the children benefit from seeing the works other kids do. It is also typical for them to be multiage. As this doesn't seem to be the case, perhaps the school is only using the Monti materials, and not the total philosophy? I would bring this up to the administration. A class with 3's, 4's (pre-K) and K would be a totally different story, and much more in line with standard Monti practice. The older children model high standards of behavior to the youngers, and conflict/disorder is rare. Another "suspect" practice is that of too much group interaction--Montessori schools rarely have the same amount of group time as other models of preschool. Some don't even do a morning meeting/circle time. Are there 3 or more group activities? I mean large group--Montessori teachers frequently meet with 2-4 kids to present new works, but rarely give large presentations--unless they are doing the Great Lessons, or an activity such as the birthday presentations or walking the line. Another indicator is whether or not they read fairytales and that sort of fiction (talking animals, etc.). I've seen top quality Monti programs that do, but it is more typical and more in line with Monti philosophy to stick to realistic fiction/nonfiction books. Also, as a preschool teacher myself (one enamored with, but not fully trained in, the Monti method), I can tell you that 18 boys in one room is also not in the least typical! Really, not typical of ANY preschool. The 5 schools in which I've taught preschool have always sought to provide balanced classes. If this school is only "posing" as a Montessori school, I would expect them to have an assistant, right now. Right. Now. If they claim that the nature of the childrens' work provides the necessary discipline and that the teacher is simply finding her feet, so to speak, then I'd expect the school to bring the other practices in line, too--quiet, calm interaction between teacher and children, few but deep group times, etc. Sorry it's been tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 I am pretty sure that the ratio in GA is much smaller than you mentioned. My dd's current pre K class has 8 kids and two full time adults. This is a mixed 3's and 4's class. My sons have never had more than 10 kids in a class with two full time adults. While I know these ratios are well below what is required by law, my guess is the law is around ten kids per adult at the age of four. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kfamily Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 I taught in a Montessori school that included 3,4 and 5 year olds in one class, grades 1-3 in another, grades 4-6 in another and then grades 7 and 8. Everything she posted is how a "good" Montessori school is run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumping In Puddles Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 I taught in a Montessori school that included 3,4 and 5 year olds in one class, grades 1-3 in another, grades 4-6 in another and then grades 7 and 8. Everything she posted is how a "good" Montessori school is run. I also agree with Chris in VA and your school is set up exactly the way my daughter's is - 3,4, and 5 (K) together, 1-3, 4-6, 7,8. The thing about Montessori is that you could call yourself a Montessori school with no training whatsoever, it is NOT the materials that make Montessori so great, it's the teachers and how they are trained! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 I know my own ds4 takes direct orders as a challenge, esp. after I've changed to a more positive discipline style- he's used to his choices! Open to suggestions, Anything I ever learned about Montessori I've forgotten, but I taught in a public school pre-k for 5 years. One teacher (moi), 22 kids in the am, 22 more in the pm, no bathroom, no water. We were in a portable building and had to walk to the next building get to the facilities. The first year we didn't even have an intercom system in the room. I never had discipline issues with any of the kids after the first week. {With the exception of Antwon who shot the finger at another child during circle time! But he didn't learn that from me.} (My arm is hurting now from patting myself on my back!:lol:) May I make a *friendly* suggestion on your above statement? I understand wanting to give your ds choices, but, imo, there are times and places that choices are more detrimental to our dc than a direct "order". You may do this already, but I would teach ds that sometimes he gets a choice, sometimes the 'choice' is mine or his teacher's. If he thinks 'orders' are a challenge now, how will he handle it when he's a teen? Like I said, just a friendly suggestion.:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiegirl Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 I am a pre-school teacher and the teacher/child ratio here in Canada is 1 teacher to 8 children. I would think those numbers would be similar in the States as well. If my child was in a classroom with 18 children and only one teacher, I would take my child out. Maybe discuss it with the director first but if there is not any immediate change, then I would suggest that you leave that school. That room is an accident waiting to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) We never a less favorable ratio than 18 children to two teachers, and there is always a floating aide available for backup, who moves from classroom to classroom. (We have a total of 5 classrooms; not all of them are always in use.) A more normal class for us is 1 teacher and 1 aide for up to 15 children. Our teachers are all warm with the children. It's an assumption that goes deeply into our preschool culture. Around here, commonly parent participation schools will have one teacher for 24 children, but there will be at worst a 1:3 ratio of participating parents to children at all times. I think that children need to bond to their caregivers and teachers, specifically--not generally. I believe in mothers and allomothers. I don't think that your son is going to learn to function well in a group from this kind of environment, because the lack of potential for bonding is so high. A cold, masterful teacher is borderline harmful until children are much older--say 8 or 10. I would never advocate leaving a child in a non-warm environment at age 4. There is nothing that he could learn from that that you would want him to know. I don't know how much choice you have in this, but if my child were in this situation, I would be looking for another one. Edited February 8, 2009 by Carol in Cal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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