"Delayed" academic curriculum

[Karen sn]

Perhaps we need to call it "Teaching in two years later what it would take five years done earlier."

 

Or we could call it "advanced" because the kids are so advanced when they are given the formal approach that they need a book geared to start at a higher level of functioning/intelligence/life experience...whatever.

 

I need books geared to older children.

 

We started using First Language Lessons for the Well Trained Mind.

And *for me* (no offense to those who love the book or find it works for *them*) I have to say that *I* could not imagine doing this with dd when she still needed to be reminded daily for several lessons what her family name is or means. That just isn't me. I don't need lessons for that.

 

And we wanted to do Right Start Math - but same problem.

 

So I want to know - what books are out there designed to teach the older child who has received an "informal" education and can start at an advanced place. We can skip all the things that some books teach because we have figured it out in our everyday living.

 

We received this recommendation of grammar. And I am excited about it.

http://www.analyticalgrammar.com/

 

What else can you recommend for this and other subjects?

 

We haven't YET found a need for any formal science lesson planning because we research EVERYTHING we find in nature and we have always utilized the homeschool offerings of our local museums, oceanographic institutes, state parks and preserves, etc....

 

But I would like your recommendations for a science program geared for older kids who are already exposed and are now ready for a formal course.

[dragons in the flower bed]

Karen, the Moore Formula is all about this, not starting academics before eight and then going through them more efficiently. They have a catalog that would be worth looking at. I believe they recommend Math-It for basic arithmetic. The TM is pretty dense but an older child should get it, and arithmetic, in a week or so and then will only need to practice. It's written for older children.

[Karen sn]

What is TM?

[dragons in the flower bed]

What is TM?

 

Oh, the Teacher's Manual for Math-It.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Perhaps we need to call it "Teaching in two years later what it would take five years done earlier."

 

Or we could call it "advanced" because the kids are so advanced when they are given the formal approach that they need a book geared to start at a higher level of functioning/intelligence/life experience...whatever.

 

I need books geared to older children.

 

We started using First Language Lessons for the Well Trained Mind.

And *for me* (no offense to those who love the book or find it works for *them*) I have to say that *I* could not imagine doing this with dd when she still needed to be reminded daily for several lessons what her family name is or means. That just isn't me. I don't need lessons for that.

 

And we wanted to do Right Start Math - but same problem.

 

So I want to know - what books are out there designed to teach the older child who has received an "informal" education and can start at an advanced place. We can skip all the things that some books teach because we have figured it out in our everyday living.

 

We received this recommendation of grammar. And I am excited about it.

http://www.analyticalgrammar.com/

 

What else can you recommend for this and other subjects?

 

We haven't YET found a need for any formal science lesson planning because we research EVERYTHING we find in nature and we have always utilized the homeschool offerings of our local museums, oceanographic institutes, state parks and preserves, etc....

 

But I would like your recommendations for a science program geared for older kids who are already exposed and are now ready for a formal course.

I had the same beef with FLL. My ds7 hated it and I hated teaching it. I basically skipped most of the book, just picked out some lessons that were fun (the poem or illustration ones) and some I thought he needed. It was basically a waste of money for me. I finally shelved it and we went to the FLL3. Now we're ditching that and trying Growing with Grammar. The FLL3 concepts were good for him (and my ds9 loves it), but the style doesn't fit. I understand the concept behind the endless repitition, but frankly, about the fourth time my ds said "Do you think I'm stupid? Why do you keep telling me this?" I figured out that he didn't need it in the manner presented in FLL1-3.

[Karen sn]

I had the same beef with FLL. My ds7 hated it and I hated teaching it. I basically skipped most of the book, just picked out some lessons that were fun (the poem or illustration ones) and some I thought he needed. It was basically a waste of money for me. I finally shelved it and we went to the FLL3. Now we're ditching that and trying Growing with Grammar. The FLL3 concepts were good for him (and my ds9 loves it), but the style doesn't fit. I understand the concept behind the endless repitition, but frankly, about the fourth time my ds said "Do you think I'm stupid? Why do you keep telling me this?" I figured out that he didn't need it in the manner presented in FLL1-3.

 

I like Growing With Grammar - but we started in 5th grade, and so missed alot of the stuff taught in previous grades. And trying to figure out what we have missed in order to procede is a real pain in the neck.

 

How far along in GWG are you? Where did you start? What do you think of it so far?

[Karen sn]

Raymond Moore seems like he was so far ahead of his time!

I can't even imagine the idiot who thought that stealing a baby not yet three years old out of their home to "school" them was a good thing? I have seen babies in school - they cry all day and learn nothing but how to be insecure. Stressed out kids don't learn.

Thanks for the website.

[Free Indeed]

Apologia for science- well they have now added elementary curriculum, but for years said it wasn't needed. Life of Fred for math.

[KristenS]

Now, that's a catalog I'd like to see. Books for kids who don't need the repetition, but that does introduce the basics just in case you did miss something (with skippable lessons).

 

We're going to try FLL next year ... I see it's very scripted, but I figured I'd do like I do with everything else and adapt it. I like that it's light and gentle.

[Ummto4]

I know exactly what you mean. I have a 7 year old (just turn seven) who was pretty delayed.... well, I'm not going to say delayed, but he certainly is a boy who tends to be at the end of the spectrum (KWIM ?).

 

For math, we've been with math on the level for 2 months, and at this point, we're still at the honeymoon stage. This math program allows us to mesh math with real life, and to teach math according to his maturation level. It's been fascinating to see the way his brain works.

 

And yes, it takes a short time to teach something when the brain is ready. It's so weird sometimes, that he does not understand math concept which is traditionally taught early on on the first grade, but is able to comprehend second grade math in less than a week !

 

With MoTL it's possible to do that. MoTL gives me a list of concepts to be mastered K-preAlgebra. So what I do is to try a concept. When it doesn't work, I try it in a couple of wks time. In the mean time, I work on other concepts. I think it's an efficient use of time, rather than getting stalled in lesson xyz in a traditional program. And no stress.

 

MoTL is designed to be used for K thru pre-algebra. I don't know how old your child is, but you may want to try MoTL. Just look at the list of concepts, and tick off the one you know your dc has mastered. Then teach the rest according to his/her maturation level. MoTL has a 60 day trial period, so you can try it for 2 months to see if it works.

 

HEre is the website: www.mathonthelevel.com

 

Hth

Edited February 6, 2009 by mom2moon2

[LadyAberlin]

I can imagine that FLL 1+2 would be boring for an older child. I started my ds in it when he was 4 and we love it. But he is little and likes the fact that he knows the answer because we have repeated it so many times. He is always so proud of himself. But he did need to learn his last name and stuff like that because he is a prek and so for us it has been perfect. As for curriculum suggestions there is Winston grammar and cozy grammar that might work for you. All About Spelling you could go through fast until you get to something that you don't know. Spelling Power you can start at whatever level as well. Maybe Key to series for math.

 

Just wanted to add that with science I think you could just start at grade level if your kids are late elementary or early jr high. Apologia is nice and very conversational. Sonlight is coming out with a new science program in April I think.

[Oakblossoms]

We did this for Math and I cannot say enough about Math U See.

 

I have him do one main page and one review page for each lesson. He doesn't feel behind because they don't have grade levels on the program. Alpha and Beta don't have babyish DVD's. They are just the same as the older levels.

 

I really wish more homeschool programs saw this type of labeling as a benefit. Just having Level 1, Level 2 and not mean Grade 1, Grade 2.

[EKS]

I'm not sure of the ages of your children but for kids ages 10ish and up these things might work:

 

Hake Grammar might be something to look at. Their books start at fifth grade level and assume very little previous knowledge.

 

Isn't Lial's Basic College Math a big review of arithmetic? If so, that might be good for math.

 

The Prentice Hall Science Explorer series doesn't assume a lot of science background. RS4K might be another place to start.

 

Getting Started with Latin is a wonderful way to jump start Latin.

[Oakblossoms]

How old are your children? Do you a religious preference? I think that would make it easier to answer.

 

I think the best advice I ever got was to skip anything they already know. I waited on a lot of academics because my oldest has Aspergers. What he really needed to work on was social skills. So, now that is all "better" he is ready for some more difficult work. We have always had a lot of education going on in our home. So, he has picked up an amazing amount such as being able to figure out math problems in his head which are way more difficult than his grade level. Yet, he is only to MUS Delta. If I tell him what a noun is, he knows the first time and it sticks. Done and end of story. But, when he was 6 it would just disappear somewhere.

 

I thought about that grammar program as well. But, since I have three more behind him that are catching up to their grade level, I want something I can use for them, too.

 

Next year he is officially a 7th grader. I would like to start grammar now. He will be doing Rod and Staff 5 alone OR I'm going to do FLL 3 with him and his younger brother. I will just adjust the lessons to fit him. That probably means he will work through them a lot faster, yet it will still sink in.

[buddhabelly]

I like Growing With Grammar - but we started in 5th grade, and so missed alot of the stuff taught in previous grades. And trying to figure out what we have missed in order to procede is a real pain in the neck.

 

How far along in GWG are you? Where did you start? What do you think of it so far?

 

 

Karen, I can't tell from your post whether you are using Growing w/ Grammar now or not. But I can tell you that if you start with GWG 5 you will not "miss" anything. It is all taught, just at a higher level of detail and comprehension than it was in GWG 3. We ended up skipping GWG 4 because it was too much repetition.

 

So, again, I can't tell if you are using it or not ("we started in 5th grade), but if you do begin with GWG you can start with GWG 5.

 

Hope that helps a little.

 

Julie

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I like Growing With Grammar - but we started in 5th grade, and so missed alot of the stuff taught in previous grades. And trying to figure out what we have missed in order to procede is a real pain in the neck.

 

How far along in GWG are you? Where did you start? What do you think of it so far?

I just started ds7 on GWG2. He was about halfway through FLL3. The first part of GWG2 is review for him. It really is set up quite differently from FLL3 so some stuff will be newish and other stuff is old hat. He likes the workbook feel of the GWG2 and I like that I get to sneak a little reading practice in there (he is a reluctant reader) by making him read the explanations/instructions to me. Also, GWG2 has much, much less handwriting. Ds7 has a fine motor delay which I think makes him not quite as ready for handwriting as perhaps he should be. I tend to forget about his fine motor delay until we're crying about certain things. I've eased up on the handwriting for all subjects and am encouraging him to draw (which he loves).

 

Just today I was debating on whether to actually have ds9 finish FLL3. I had him look through the GWG4 to see if he knew the material. All he said was, "great, another boring school book." The reason I'm thinking of moving him into GWG is that it looks to be very independent for the parts he knows from FLL3. And the book is written to the student. My ds9 is quite a good reader and has excellent comprehension, coupled with the fact that he prefers to do his work independently. FLL3 is very hands-on for the home teacher, which I think holds him back. His eyes start to glaze over from listening to me.

[angela&4boys]

I really wish more homeschool programs saw this type of labeling as a benefit. Just having Level 1, Level 2 and not mean Grade 1, Grade 2.

 

:iagree:

 

We use MUS, WWE, and FLL and I'm so grateful for the creator's insight. We have avoided a lot of tears and heartache thanks to them. They get the job done... and very well I might add!

[Karen sn]

How old are your children? Do you a religious preference? I think that would make it easier to answer.

 

 

 

My dd is 11 and we call it 5th grade.

I prefer no religion at all in my curriculum.

[rafiki]

.

[Karen sn]

I'm not sure of the ages of your children but for kids ages 10ish and up these things might work:

 

Hake Grammar might be something to look at. Their books start at fifth grade level and assume very little previous knowledge.

 

Isn't Lial's Basic College Math a big review of arithmetic? If so, that might be good for math.

 

The Prentice Hall Science Explorer series doesn't assume a lot of science background. RS4K might be another place to start.

 

Getting Started with Latin is a wonderful way to jump start Latin.

 

Hake Grammar looks awesome!!!!!

Here's a link if anyone is interested.

http://www.studygrammar.com/?content=about

[Maria/ME]

WOW!!! Great thread...this is a good topic for us, too, as I find it difficult to jump in on some subjects (Math, Science Grammar) for similar reasons...the material is either too simplistic or we've already been over it...

 

FLL didn't work for us well. Same reasons. Too much rep...we got through it really fast, but she wasn't comprehending it...even w/all the rep...so we waited...but I think my dd is more ready now at age almost 11.

 

I had no idea Moore had a catalog, and it's wonderful to know about some of these other options, Hake, GWG, Prentice Hall, Math on the Level. I don't have time know but will peruse further tomorrow....

 

I was planning on going with analytical grammar, but being a junkie when it comes to curriculum I'm open! I'd like to plug Bravewriter at this point. We've used the sample version of The Arrow and really enjoyed it! While it doesn't cover grammar extensively it does touch on some. You get literary elements, writing, some grammar, reading, spelling, punctuation and so forth in one lesson! My daughter doesn't feel talked down to by the format but very much involved in the lesson.

 

I'm checking out Galore Park Science. So You Want To Know About Science book 2. Much is review for her, but more in depth...but again looking forward to checking some of the other options mentioned.

 

We still have Right Start math, but I've been interested in looking over other curriculums, too....

 

Thanks again to all for these suggestions! I'm psyched!

[Sara R]

If you like the concepts of Right Start but don't want the whole scripted program, take a look at their Tutorial Program. The book "Activities for the AL abacus" teaches arithmetic through division. The table of contents and a few sample pages can be found here. Because the whole program is in the one book, you can go through it faster. I used this program with my kids in preschool and kindergarten, then switched to Singapore.

 

After working through that, your children could probably go on to Lial's Basic College Math.

[Sara R]

For Spelling, you could use the Spelling Plus lists (available here for free), or Spell Well, a one-year program for children ages 12 and up.

[LadyAberlin]

I think you can start Easy grammar in the middle.

[Karen sn]

:iagree:

 

We use MUS, WWE, and FLL and I'm so grateful for the creator's insight. We have avoided a lot of tears and heartache thanks to them. They get the job done... and very well I might add!

 

What is WWE?

[Oakblossoms]

WWE is Writing with Ease. It is from Peace Hill Press.

 

As for your Science question. The WTM has an outline for Science at that age level. You could jump into that. I think this was just mentioned http://www.pandiapress.com/real_science.htm. I haven't looked at it. But, people seem happy with it and I believe it's secular. People could correct me though:tongue_smilie:

[Maria/ME]

I just posted elsewhere how much I really loved REAL Science from Pandia. I have two problems with it, but they are minor and maybe a "just me" thing. The first is that there are labs/experiements in almost every lesson. Prep,though little is involved, but not everytime we do science do I want an experiment! And I can NEVER get them to work like they are supposed to so we get caught up in the "not working' part and miss the point. Sigh. The secondary problem has to do with the fact that now my daughter is almost 11 and find the books a bit too simplistic.

 

I would recommend these for kids between 6 and 9 or so. Kinda difficult if you've "delayed" science!:D

[St. Theophan Academy]

i can thank Dr. Moore for being the influence that made my parents choose to homeschool - one little audio tape by him changed my parents whole way of thinking, resulting in pulling me out of school and never sending my siblings - and I so agree with his idea that children are not ready to be put into a school situation until they are more mature!

[momma aimee]

:lurk5:

[poetic license]

Hake Grammar looks awesome!!!!!

Here's a link if anyone is interested.

http://www.studygrammar.com/?content=about

 

This is the first time I've seen this; I agree, it looks great. I never got with the idea of drilling itty bitty kids on what a noun is a million times when you can teach it to them at one go when they're a bit older.

[Gooblink]

How about Michael Clay Thompson's (MCT) Language Arts programs? Each level begins with a Grammar portion that can either serve as a review or an introduction and you move through it at whatever pace suits you. The Practice books are challenging - I'd say above grade level. The program was written for gifted students.

 

You can peruse the Royal Fireworks Press (rfwp.com) website for more information.

[Spy Car]

I would just like to suggest that there is an alternative to using methods that are stupefying, repetitive, and uninteresting vs delaying subjects all together.

 

These are both poor choices, but they are not the only choices.

 

There is a Third Way!

 

Bill

[Jen500]

I wonder how Karen sn is doing?

[Spy Car]

I wonder how Karen sn is doing?

 

Wow, I didn't realize how old this thread is :confused:

 

Bill

[Gooblink]

Oh, for heaven's sake. I fall for these all.the.time. :glare:

[DarlaS]

I had the same beef with FLL. My ds7 hated it and I hated teaching it. I basically skipped most of the book, just picked out some lessons that were fun (the poem or illustration ones) and some I thought he needed. It was basically a waste of money for me. I finally shelved it and we went to the FLL3. Now we're ditching that and trying Growing with Grammar. The FLL3 concepts were good for him (and my ds9 loves it), but the style doesn't fit. I understand the concept behind the endless repitition, but frankly, about the fourth time my ds said "Do you think I'm stupid? Why do you keep telling me this?" I figured out that he didn't need it in the manner presented in FLL1-3.

 

So level 3 is like this too? What is out there for a 3rd grader that moves a little faster? FLL4? Or is that also repetitive?

 

I ask because I can totally see my son asking me this. Only he'd do it the 2nd or 3rd time. :tongue_smilie:

 

Oh, and we've used GWG and was hoping for something less workbooky for gr, 3. Maybe I could just get the text. Hmm...

[DarlaS]

I wonder how Karen sn is doing?

 

Since it was two years ago, she's probably got it covered. :tongue_smilie:

[morosophe]

I think it's hilarious that threads can be resurrected after so long. I assume it's because someone else has the same question, but wants to make it clear that they've read the old thread on the subject and they want whatever additional information is available. Having it popped with a little more explanation would be nice, though.

 

So level 3 is like this too? What is out there for a 3rd grader that moves a little faster? FLL4? Or is that also repetitive?

 

I ask because I can totally see my son asking me this. Only he'd do it the 2nd or 3rd time. :tongue_smilie:

 

Well, I'm going to be doing Rod & Staff Grammar 2 (Preparing to Build) for my second grader next year. It's amazing how excited I am about this, even though it is an actual textbook. As far as I can tell, grammar, like the times table, is always going to be "textbooky." And also like the times table, grammar is always going to require repetition, in order to make sure basic knowledge is firmly held in a child's memory. (Hence the name "grammar stage" for the "repeat, repeat, repeat" portion of education, right?) The problem comes when the repetition is condescending (the teacher is repeating things the child knows, when it should be the child's turn to demonstrate that knowledge), or when it's of material that the child has in fact mastered but has been drilled repeatedly on... this week... yesterday, in fact. (Since we're talking about grammar, my kids love Schoolhouse Rock and don't seem to mind repeating that over, and over, and over. Just a thought.)

 

R&S does have a lot of busy work, but homeschoolers have pointed out that you can cut down on that, only doing it (maybe even orally) until it's clear that your child can identify a noun, etc. Then it's not so much "repetition" (although, of course, it is) as it is application. Only repeat something when it's clear your kid is floundering--"Remember, a noun is the name of a person, a place, a thing, or an idea," or whatever it is that they've forgotten.

 

And when the "repetition" is along the lines of "What is a noun, again?" for review or as preparation for further lessons in a topic, your child should be able to answer the question and feel confident in their knowledge instead of bored with repetition. Of course, this comes from the lady who catechizes her kids, so... take it with a grain of salt. :p

 

To get back to the topic of the thread, what I've read about Rod & Staff for older kids is that 1) the program is spiral, so presumably you don't have to worry so much about missing the older material, although you might want to spend a little longer on whatever topics your child isn't quite getting because he or she doesn't have the foundation of learning, say, the definition of a noun years ago; and 2) you could go back a ways (a year or two) and let your older kids cover it on their own, as quickly as they think it needs. Then they just have to get an acceptable score on either the reviews or quizzes/tests to demonstrate mastery, and they can move on.

[SorrelZG]

I would just like to suggest that there is an alternative to using methods that are stupefying, repetitive, and uninteresting vs delaying subjects all together.

 

These are both poor choices, but they are not the only choices.

 

There is a Third Way!

 

Bill

 

I am curious about this third way. I am personally torn in contemplating the first two ways.

 

 

On a side note, I almost resurrected a very old thread today myself. I merely wanted to subscribe to it so I could conveniently come back to it later. I figured out I could subscribe without posting, however, and am rather proud of myself. ;) :D

[Spy Car]

I am curious about this third way. I am personally torn in contemplating the first two ways.

 

 

On a side note, I almost resurrected a very old thread today myself. I merely wanted to subscribe to it so I could conveniently come back to it later. I figured out I could subscribe without posting, however, and am rather proud of myself. ;) :D

 

There are many ways to teach (or perhaps more rightly help children learn) subjects in ways that excite them, turn on their minds to learning, make them feel somewhat autonomous and competent. Ways that are "academic" in some sense--as in they are building skills and foundations for learning that set them up for a future of learning--but are developmentally appropriate to their age and individuality.

 

One need not force inappropriate methods on young children, nor does one have to "wait" to avoid the first condition. Often these two extremes are offered as a "false dichotomy" of the choices we have as parents. And it just isn't so.

 

Bill

[EmilyGF]

Thanks, Spy Car! It is so true!

 

I have positive memories of math from first grade - I felt that I couldn't deprive my son of those!

 

We have *so* much fun doing math and other things in age appropriate ways. My 4-yo would have a fit if we excluded her!

 

Emily

[SorrelZG]

There are many ways to teach (or perhaps more rightly help children learn) subjects in ways that excite them, turn on their minds to learning, make them feel somewhat autonomous and competent. Ways that are "academic" in some sense--as in they are building skills and foundations for learning that set them up for a future of learning--but are developmentally appropriate to their age and individuality.

 

One need not force inappropriate methods on young children, nor does one have to "wait" to avoid the first condition. Often these two extremes are offered as a "false dichotomy" of the choices we have as parents. And it just isn't so.

 

Bill

 

Well entangled in this false dichotomy is where I find myself. Can you point me in the direction of somewhere I can educate myself about how to accomplish the alternative?

[Guest]

Fascinating thread....

[momma aimee]

I think it's hilarious that threads can be resurrected after so long. I assume it's because someone else has the same question, but wants to make it clear that they've read the old thread on the subject and they want whatever additional information is available. Having it popped with a little more explanation would be nice, though.

 

 

 

Well, I'm going to be doing Rod & Staff Grammar 2 (Preparing to Build) for my second grader next year. It's amazing how excited I am about this, even though it is an actual textbook. As far as I can tell, grammar, like the times table, is always going to be "textbooky." And also like the times table, grammar is always going to require repetition, in order to make sure basic knowledge is firmly held in a child's memory. (Hence the name "grammar stage" for the "repeat, repeat, repeat" portion of education, right?) The problem comes when the repetition is condescending (the teacher is repeating things the child knows, when it should be the child's turn to demonstrate that knowledge), or when it's of material that the child has in fact mastered but has been drilled repeatedly on... this week... yesterday, in fact. (Since we're talking about grammar, my kids love Schoolhouse Rock and don't seem to mind repeating that over, and over, and over. Just a thought.)

 

R&S does have a lot of busy work, but homeschoolers have pointed out that you can cut down on that, only doing it (maybe even orally) until it's clear that your child can identify a noun, etc. Then it's not so much "repetition" (although, of course, it is) as it is application. Only repeat something when it's clear your kid is floundering--"Remember, a noun is the name of a person, a place, a thing, or an idea," or whatever it is that they've forgotten.

 

And when the "repetition" is along the lines of "What is a noun, again?" for review or as preparation for further lessons in a topic, your child should be able to answer the question and feel confident in their knowledge instead of bored with repetition. Of course, this comes from the lady who catechizes her kids, so... take it with a grain of salt. :p

 

To get back to the topic of the thread, what I've read about Rod & Staff for older kids is that 1) the program is spiral, so presumably you don't have to worry so much about missing the older material, although you might want to spend a little longer on whatever topics your child isn't quite getting because he or she doesn't have the foundation of learning, say, the definition of a noun years ago; and 2) you could go back a ways (a year or two) and let your older kids cover it on their own, as quickly as they think it needs. Then they just have to get an acceptable score on either the reviews or quizzes/tests to demonstrate mastery, and they can move on.

 

my fualt. :001_huh:

 

I was searching, found this, posted to it -- :lurk5: -- so i could find it again to come back and read it -- sorry -- next time I'll post more of why I am posting to such an old tread -- :001_huh::001_huh::001_huh:

[boscopup]

A handy feature... Go to the top of the thread and click on "thread tools", then subscribe to the thread from there. Later you can get to your subscribed threads via the userCP.

 

Another option is to just bookmark the thread with your browser's bookmark feature.

 

:)