Someone to talk to me about teaching cursive

[oliveview]

Our boys have great handwriting, dare I say beautiful. They are anxious to start cursive. I bought a New American Cursive book. It's okay, but it is just one double page on each letter. Is that how most of the cursive books are? Where do I go from there? Also, I'm not sure this if the right one for us. What have others used? We used HWOT for printing but I really do not like the look of their cursive.

[Avila]

I like the 3rd grade Abeka cursive book for practice, but not for the initial teaching of the letters. The reason I like it is that is has the kids practice on real information, like about the states, different animals and birds, etc., so they are learning something interesting while they practice. Unlike most of the other books I have seen, it is a huge book that I am sure you could stretch over more than one year if you wanted to. I am sure you could pull this together on your own, but I appreciate the convenience!

[hsmomof2boys]

I used "A Reason for Handwriting" for my sons. We liked the bible verses each week.

 

In addition to that, my son had trouble learning cursive, so I purchased templates from School Rite. There were the same size as the Kindergarten lined paper, so I just used the template and wrote a whole page for my son to trace whenever he had trouble with a certain letter. It really reinforced what he was learning.

 

Their website (on the template is) www.school-rite.com.

 

School-rite also has templates for learning manuscript letters. There are very large ones for pre-schoolers, too.

[bookmomma]

I have used the HWT program. It's not very fancy, but quite easy to follow and I like the way they use the lines--just two not three. I usually supplement that workbook by showing my son, "this is the way I learned to write it," and I show him a more fancy way than the HWT model.

 

I started with my ds with some printed pages from kidszone.com, they start with "rockin' round letters" a,c,d,g,q,o, which all begin with what HWT calls "magic c." You can print out a page for each letter, there is practice with the individual letter (a a a), then the letter connected to more letters (aaaaaaa), then words with that letter (dad--after the first two letters are introduced). I thought it was a nice transition into cursive.

 

Another simple idea--just use a notebook or sheets of paper, model the letters, and have him practice each day. When writing sentences that go beyond one line, skip a line to allow space for him to copy below yours. I remind my son to copy my example--not his previous examples--because he will make mistakes over and over.

 

Beyond that, the key is to provide them with daily practice until they can recognize the cursive letters, and produce them without looking at a model. We went from--individual letters, to simple words, to sentences, to paragraphs in cursive. He can now read in cursive as well.

 

Good luck:)

[AnnetteB]

:iagree:We use this with all the children. It is written intelligently enough for an older student to use. If they practice with this book they will not need another handwriting text.

 

I like the 3rd grade Abeka cursive book for practice, but not for the initial teaching of the letters. The reason I like it is that is has the kids practice on real information, like about the states, different animals and birds, etc., so they are learning something interesting while they practice. Unlike most of the other books I have seen, it is a huge book that I am sure you could stretch over more than one year if you wanted to. I am sure you could pull this together on your own, but I appreciate the convenience!

[Spy Car]

Hey Sherri,

 

I hope you don't mind me sharing my *obsession* of the moment which is learning to write cursive with a fountain pen.

 

With-in the past half-hour I was discussing the whole fountain pen thing with my wife. And I mentioned how people who grew up with fountain pens, like my grand-parents and parents, all have such beautiful writing, and I speculated that ball-points might have been at least partially behind the ruination of penmanship skills.

 

But then I said, of course you learned with ball-points and your handwriting is beautiful (it truly is lovely). And then she said: "No I didn't, my father had a fountain pen from the bank (he was a banker) and I would practice my handwriting by signing checks and filling out ledgers, and it's how I learned to write well."

 

You could have knocked me over with a feather.

 

There are a number of inexpensive options, including a "disposable" fountain pen called a Pilot Varsity that you can get at Staples. They only run around $3 a piece and are shockingly good.

 

Just a thought. I don't want to hijack the thread.

 

ETA: I'm looking at a program called SmithHand. I have no experience with it, nor have seen much real-world feedback about it, but I'm intrigued.

 

Bill

[oliveview]

Okay there is some really good stuff here! Thank you everyone. I just love this group and it's collected wisdom.

 

Now, I'm off to do some searching!

[oliveview]

Hey Sherri,

 

I hope you don't mind me sharing my *obsession* of the moment which is learning to write cursive with a fountain pen.

 

With-in the past half-hour I was discussing the whole fountain pen thing with my wife. And I mentioned how people who grew up with fountain pens, like my grand-parents and parents, all have such beautiful writing, and I speculated that ball-points might have been at least partially behind the ruination of penmanship skills.

 

But then I said, of course you learned with ball-points and your handwriting is beautiful (it truly is lovely). And then she said: "No I didn't, my father had a fountain pen from the bank (he was a banker) and I would practice my handwriting by signing checks and filling out ledgers, and it's how I learned to write well."

 

You could have knocked me over with a feather.

 

There are a number of inexpensive options, including a "disposable" fountain pen called a Pilot Varsity that you can get at Staples. They only run around $3 a piece and are shockingly good.

 

Just a thought. I don't want to hijack the thread.

 

ETA: I'm looking at a program called SmithHand. I have no experience with it, nor have seen much real-world feedback about it, but I'm intrigued.

 

Bill

 

This is also a GREAT idea! My boys would love this!

[ElizabethB]

Hey Sherri,

 

I hope you don't mind me sharing my *obsession* of the moment which is learning to write cursive with a fountain pen.

 

With-in the past half-hour I was discussing the whole fountain pen thing with my wife. And I mentioned how people who grew up with fountain pens, like my grand-parents and parents, all have such beautiful writing, and I speculated that ball-points might have been at least partially behind the ruination of penmanship skills.

 

Just a thought. I don't want to hijack the thread.

 

Bill

 

Hijack away! That's really interesting, I'm tempted to try it out myself. I'm already in the 1700's/1800's with my use of Webster's Speller, I may as well add a fountain pen thing. In fact, Don Potter and I joking tell each other that we'll be writing with fountain pens soon. I sent him one I got in Colonial Williamsburg as a joke!

 

He's a big fan of teaching cursive, I'll tell him your theory, and I may try it out myself.

 

I taught myself calligraphy in Middle School, the pens that wrote the nicest, smoothest flowing calligraphy once you got used to them were fountain type calligraphy pens.

[oliveview]

Yes, by all means, hijack away!!

 

Bill-Would you use the SmithHand to teach the cursive writing? It looks like they are very specific about the choice of pen they would like for you to use. Not that I have a problem going against the "rules"! :D

 

Elizabeth-Today, I spent an extended period of time on your website and I think you may have MANY ansers that I have been looking for. I am spending the weekend wrapping my brain around how I am going to do remedial work with my sons using your website and Webster's. Thank you so much!

[Spy Car]

Yes, by all means, hijack away!!

 

Bill-Would you use the SmithHand to teach the cursive writing? It looks like they are very specific about the choice of pen they would like for you to use. Not that I have a problem going against the "rules"! :D

 

 

Sherri, Dr Smith (Bruce) recommends a Pentel Sharp or Sharplet ) .9mm HB lead mechanical pencil (I believe for manuscript) and a Sanford Expresso extra fine pen for cursive (I think).

 

I've not discussed using a fountain pen with him. Nor have I decided with absolute certainty this is the program I'll use. But he is sending me some materials, and thus far SmithHand is the leading contender.

 

I do know fountain pens are used in Europe with children, and were once used here. And where used, handwriting flourished. Is there a one-to-one relationship? I don't know.

 

I do know I'm finding it a lot more fun to write with my newly acquired "Varsity", and I've got my eye on some other children's fountain pens. You mentioned your sons have nice writing, so I thought a fountain pen might really inspire them. And a $3 a pop, you could give the idea a low cost whirl.

 

Bill

[Snickerdoodle]

Oh my goodness, how would you have a kid learn cursive with a fountain pen? THere is no eraser! I'm just imagining my son making a mistake and all the crying and flipping out that would happen. In our house every pencil is flanked by at least 5 erasers. :001_huh:

 

Ok, maybe the pen would help him learn that mistakes aren't the end of the world.

 

I need to do some thinking on this one...

 

 

Hijack over. Please return to your regularly scheduled thread.

[hmschooling]

BJUP also has students copying information and includes more practice. I think the idea with NAC is to get them writing quickly then they now have book 2 to move to after the initial introduction. With others that take more time per letter, your child can only write a few letters in cursive until the end of the whole book! So, he only gets to really practice it in the handwriting book. With NAC, I can see it crossing over to different subjects as soon as all the letters are introduced instead of at the end of the year. This provides for much more real practice instead of single letters and some with connections. They also have a StartWrite CD with just the NAC font on it so you can provide individualized copywork pages. That' just my two cents!:001_smile:

[Spy Car]

Oh my goodness, how would you have a kid learn cursive with a fountain pen? THere is no eraser! I'm just imagining my son making a mistake and all the crying and flipping out that would happen. In our house every pencil is flanked by at least 5 erasers. :001_huh:

 

Ok, maybe the pen would help him learn that mistakes aren't the end of the world.

 

I need to do some thinking on this one...

 

 

Hijack over. Please return to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

The "correct" form (I'm learning) when making an error with a fountain pen is to simply strike a single line through the word, and to move on. Gentlemen (and Ladies) are not to dwell on these mistakes, or to judge them in others work or writings, but they serve to remind us that we can improve.

 

That's the "theory" anyway :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill (who really has dragged the thread off-topic)

[oliveview]

Yes Bill, I do think the boys would delight in using a fountain pen. I am going to head out to Staples in a bit and see what I can find. As far as going ot, not to worry, I have learned so much today about cursive styles and pens. I need to hop over to the math thread from about 2 weeks ago so I can tell you all that I am learning from the Liping Ma book that you've got me reading! :lol:

[Spy Car]

Yes Bill, I do think the boys would delight in using a fountain pen. I am going to head out to Staples in a bit and see what I can find. As far as going ot, not to worry, I have learned so much today about cursive styles and pens. I need to hop over to the math thread from about 2 weeks ago so I can tell you all that I am learning from the Liping Ma book that you've got me reading! :lol:

 

I can't wait to hear your impressions of the Liping Ma book. I know it gets a bit "thick" at times, and I wish she took things one step further and taught us "the readers" what we need to know, but with-in it's scope, I hope...

 

Well I'll wait to see what you think :001_smile:

 

Bill

[Tabrett]

Sherri, Dr Smith (Bruce) recommends a Pentel Sharp or Sharplet ) .9mm HB lead mechanical pencil (I believe for manuscript) and a Sanford Expresso extra fine pen for cursive (I think).

 

Bill

 

I have been following all your post on handwriting. Do you think the Sharp Mechanical pencil is recommended so a child won't hold their pencil so close to the lead. My dd (5yo) holds her fingers very close to the tip of the pencil; as close as she can before the pencil starts to cone out. It looks like the Sharp has a long cone and the lead sleeve extends the cone out even farther which would force a dc hold the pencil farther back.

 

I have to tell my dc every time she forms a letter to put her thumb down (She wants to tuck it under her first finger, which is the same thing I do. Although I try to write correctly in front of her:-O) I have been working on her pencil grip from the start. I have done all the things HWT has suggested (golf pencils, HWT flip crayons, little chalk pieces and sponge cubes) to no avail. She simple does not hold the pencil the correct way unless prompted every time she picks it up (which is every letter she makes). I must tell her to put her thumb down at least 30 times a day.

 

I'm willing to try about anything to get her to hold the pencil correctly and am looking forward to your review.

[Spy Car]

I have been following all your post on handwriting. Do you think the Sharp Mechanical pencil is recommended so a child won't hold their pencil so close to the lead. My dd (5yo) holds her fingers very close to the tip of the pencil; as close as she can before the pencil starts to cone out. It looks like the Sharp has a long cone and the lead sleeve extends the cone out even farther which would force a dc hold the pencil farther back.

 

I have to tell my dc every time she forms a letter to put her thumb down (She wants to tuck it under her first finger, which is the same thing I do. Although I try to write correctly in front of her:-O) I have been working on her pencil grip from the start. I have done all the things HWT has suggested (golf pencils, HWT flip crayons, little chalk pieces and sponge cubes) to no avail. She simple does not hold the pencil the correct way unless prompted every time she picks it up (which is every letter she makes). I must tell her to put her thumb down at least 30 times a day.

 

I'm willing to try about anything to get her to hold the pencil correctly and am looking forward to your review.

 

I'm looking at the pencil now Tabrett, and you are quite correct about the set-up. I'm not sure if "hand position" is a reason this pencil is recommended (to be honest). But it is true that you could not grip it too low, and that does seem a plus.

 

Dr Smith did mention that the big "learners" pencils were not advised (by him) of course we laid in a supply of these recently :001_huh:

 

The size lead .9mm and hardness hb are important to him (Smith).

 

I wish I could offer more practical help on your daughter's grip, but sadly I'm no authority on teaching handwriting. You might try a "Varsity" FP too, as she can't write with she's holding it wrong (kind of).

 

Bill

[ElizabethB]

Elizabeth-Today, I spent an extended period of time on your website and I think you may have MANY ansers that I have been looking for. I am spending the weekend wrapping my brain around how I am going to do remedial work with my sons using your website and Webster's. Thank you so much!

 

You're welcome! If you need help figuring something out, let me know. I'm now in my 16th year of teaching phonics to remedial students, and I've found that they generally have the same types of problems, so I can answer most questions.

 

Just this last fall, I did have a student do something new, though--I had a student try to guess nonsense words! When informed that the word is not real, the rest of my students have given up and sounded it out. He kept trying to guess them, either not realizing how many possible word there were to try to guess or just so ingrained in his guessing habits that he could not help himself.

 

I had to resort to making him sound out every letter of every word for a while before allowing him to say the complete word.

[Alicia]

Hi Tabrette, I have also been following the handwriting threads lately. Your daughter is only 5. She has time to really set the style of pen hold she will have. There is a range of normal. How are her fine (small muscle) and gross (large) muscle skills?

Fine muscles are the ones in the hands/fingers themselves. Can she sew, crochet, knit, tie her shoes, do small buttons, butter toast, work with small lego, make paper airplanes, braid her dolls hair? All of those things and more, develop fine motor skills and can be worked on to improve a child's penmanship. The connection between the brain and the hand has to be such that the child does not need to look at the hand to make it do what she wants.

Gross motor skills would be developed by things like climbing trees, walking a dog, wheelbarrow races, baseball, dance classes, tennis, gymnastics, vacuuming, gardening. Strength and coordination at the shoulder and elbow allow the hand to do its work without getting tired or placing the body in an awkward position.

The stronger the child is in the above types of activities, with endurance of course, the better they will be able to develop handwriting skills, other things being in place. So many kids seen in OT (occupational therapy) for handwriting are lacking the strength and endurance they need to keep up with the work being asked of them. Then again she IS just 5 and may need a little time. She has you to watch and redirect her so she should be just fine.

 

I switched my daughter to a fountain pen at 6 because her penmanship was terrible. I am an OT, her penmanship was horrific. It was a total embarrassment to me. Irrational but i'm being honest. I gave her a fountain pen I bought in Spain for about $3, students there use them all the time and so they are cheap. It made all the difference. I switched from HWT to Classical Cursive/Cursive First where all the lower case start at the bottom and that was also a big help. She was learning so many "rules" in other subjects it was nice that penmanship just had one, start at the bottom. From there on to the Varsity fountain pens SpyCar mentioned in shades of purple and pink inks. I also have short ones about the size of the HWT pencils/golf pencils.

 

Hope something helps in all that. She has you and you're on the case so she will be fine.

 

Regards,

Alicia in New Zealand

[Alicia]

Cross Post on fountain pen online source:

 

This is the company I use the most. I have never had a problem with billing, shipping or sending the wrong product.They ship very quickly and everything has always been well packaged. Please let me know if I can be of any more help, also send PM that way I will find it quickly, the board moves so fast sometimes!

 

http://www.jetpens.com/ the homepage

I would suggest buying one of each, not the multipacks to start. Fountain pen selection is VERY personal, kind of like backing a football team. People are very opinionated. Try a variety for cheap and see what works. Buy nice ink colors, they are cheap and makes grammar work look happy.:001_smile:

 

I use these for myself but also for the kids, they are the ones mentioned by SpyCar: Pilot Varsity & Vpen Disposable Fountain Pens

 

These are shorter and easier on the hand. I like them for small hands as the physics of it just makes sense. HWT also uses small pencils for small hands. Not too skinny or heavy, nice colors, not juvenile. Pilot Petit1 Mini Fountain Pens

 

I found these to be a waste after buying the others. The quality is "lesser" maybe because it is a youth pen? Not worth it for the cost savings, just buy the regular in this line. Pelikan Pelikano Junior Fountain Pens

 

 

 

Rregards,

Alicia in New Zealand

[myfatherslily]

I, too, have been reading all the cursive threads lately. I just LOVE the idea of using a fountain pen! I used to have one myself and felt so old fashioned when I wrote with it:)

 

I was just looking at jetpens.com. In other threads, it's been mentioned that lefties should have quick-drying ink and pens specifically designed for the left hand. Are any of these pens appropriate for lefties? Which ones? Or is there something better? Someone please tell me what pens you use!! lol:) I am DEFINITELY working fountain pens into next years school budget!! :D

[myfatherslily]

Never mind - I see the other thread on the very same topic!!:)

[Jumping In Puddles]

 

I use these for myself but also for the kids, they are the ones mentioned by SpyCar: Pilot Varsity & Vpen Disposable Fountain Pens

 

These are shorter and easier on the hand. I like them for small hands as the physics of it just makes sense. HWT also uses small pencils for small hands. Not too skinny or heavy, nice colors, not juvenile. Pilot Petit1 Mini Fountain Pens

 

I found these to be a waste after buying the others. The quality is "lesser" maybe because it is a youth pen? Not worth it for the cost savings, just buy the regular in this line. Pelikan Pelikano Junior Fountain Pens

 

 

 

ok, I haven't had my coffee yet, but are you recommending the Pilot Petit1 Mini AND the Pelikan Pelikano Junior Fountain Pens AND the Pilot Varsity & Vpen Disposable Fountain Pens?

[Spy Car]

Are any of these pens appropriate for lefties?

 

There is a pen make especially for lefties. I don't believe it is sold here in the USA, but there is a "fountain pen underground" that helps people get pens from over-seas (I'm learning).

 

Scroll down below the right handed pen:

 

http://www.staedtler.com/learners_fountain_pen.Staedtler?ActiveID=113642

 

ETA: The website Alica linked to shows there is a Pelikano "left-handed" FP.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Spy Car

[Alicia]

Jumping in Puddles I worded that badly. I am recommeding as cost effective, worthwhile to try for kids, for everyday use, dont cry if you loose them: the Pilot Petit1 Mini AND the Pelikan Pelikano AND the Pilot Varsity. The Pelikan Pelikano Junior Fountain Pens is not a good buy but if you like the Pelikan line or would like to try that line just get the standard Pelikan Pelikano.

Ok you may need coffee to read straight but I obvioulsy dont do so well at 1am !

 

Alicia in New Zealand

[Spy Car]

Jumping in Puddles I worded that badly. I am recommeding as cost effective, worthwhile to try for kids, for everyday use, dont cry if you loose them: the Pilot Petit1 Mini AND the Pelikan Pelikano AND the Pilot Varsity. The Pelikan Pelikano Junior Fountain Pens is not a good buy but if you like the Pelikan line or would like to try that line just get the standard Pelikan Pelikano.

Ok you may need coffee to read straight but I obvioulsy dont do so well at 1am !

 

Alicia in New Zealand

 

I'm still learning about pen options, and have been hearing from the "experts". The pens mentioned by Alicia are highly regarded as children's pens (or even reasonable adult starter pens).

 

Here are a couple "euro-kinder" style pens with wood handles. The Lamy ABC is widely used as a first pen in Europe, but is difficult (but not impossible to find here). The Greenfield pen is similar, and more readily available.

 

http://www.mercurius-international.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=24&products_id=3770&amsid=3dff31eb0d6c80484b4cd91a89f8f4e1

 

http://www.lamy.com/eng/b2c/abc/010

 

Bill

[Jumping In Puddles]

Jumping in Puddles I worded that badly. I am recommeding as cost effective, worthwhile to try for kids, for everyday use, dont cry if you loose them: the Pilot Petit1 Mini AND the Pelikan Pelikano AND the Pilot Varsity. The Pelikan Pelikano Junior Fountain Pens is not a good buy but if you like the Pelikan line or would like to try that line just get the standard Pelikan Pelikano.

Ok you may need coffee to read straight but I obvioulsy dont do so well at 1am !

 

Alicia in New Zealand

 

Got it! :lol: (and thanks!)

[oliveview]

Here are a couple of US companies that sell the Lamy ABC. I have no experience with any of these companies, but I an thinking of ordering from one of them! You guys have talked me into fountain pens for me and my kids!!

 

http://www.redfingerprint.com/Lamy/Lamy_ABC

 

http://www.artsuppliesonline.com/catalog.cfm?cata_id=12498

 

http://www.fahrneyspens.com/Item--i-20058S

 

Now if I could just decide on what style of cursive to teach them! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Alicia]

SpyCar and Oliveview thank you so very much!!! I have been looking for this pen for the last 10 years. I used it one summer in Spain and forgot to get more on my way out. I returned twice and never got another one. It's light and holds up to much usage. Nib is not to thin or too scratchy. It is a great everyday pen. I use fountain pens all the time due to carpel tunnel syndrome. I wanted to stop it from developing but needed to do LOTS of documentation in the hospitals. Fountain pens are great for those that need to write alot. Off to find a reseller here or using oliveview's links. Thanks guys.

 

Regards,

Alicia in New Zealand

[oliveview]

I ordered a sample of pens including the Pilot Varsity and the Lamy ABC. I will report back and let you all know how it goes.

 

I am still unsure what to do with the cursive.

[FriedClams]

We started with HWT cursive and then moved to Christian Liberty Press. CLP 2nd grade is a great book - instructive with appropriate sized lines. It's great and it's really cheap. From there we'll move to Abeka 3 as I've heard so many great things about it. For what it's worth - we're using the CLP 2 with a lefty and her handwriting is great (though it totally didn't start out that way!).