Shasta Mom Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (sorry about the bold - I can't undo it?) I, too, have been worried about reading enough literature, and whether we are missing the boat. I admire the reading lists of SL and AO, although I don't completely understand how they are done and how people have enough time. Are the books discussed and analyzed formally? What I have been requiring as far as reading are: 1) the daily selection in the Elson Reader. Sometimes these are simply a poem, or a longer story that may take 15 minutes or so, and 2) SOTW (II), the corresponding UIHE selections, and usually some of the books mentioned in the AG. Lots of these AG-recommended books are very brief, and geared to kids younger than my almost 10 ds. I then let my son read what he wants (within my guidelines) to hopefully foster a love of reading. Then, I also read to him quality literature at bedtime (our read-alouds). I've listed our read-alouds and my son's self-read books below. We're about to start a new read-aloud (tonight) and I have Pyle's and Sutcliffe's King Arthur, and Beorn the Proud but I think the K.A.'s may take too much time. We only read for 1/2 hr at night, and looking at these two books, it looks like a couple of months. I'm also cautious about what one poster admonished about wasting a great book on someone too young. So, I guess I have 2 questions: Given that we're at a little over 1/2 way through grade 4, do I need to make ds read more required literature, and formally discuss/analyze it -at the expense of his choices? (or am I on the right track?) And, at almost age 10 is it necessary to slog through these heavy Pyle/Sutcliffe King Arthur books? (BTW - I love Sutcliffe's shorter novels, i.e., Black Ships Before Troy, Wanderings of Odysseus, Beowulf) Thanks for listening - I would love some advice.....I'm biting my nails.....:001_huh: Fourth Grade Read-Alouds to date The Railway Children by E. Nesbit Water Babies by Charles Kingsley - in progress Sir Gawain and the Green Knight by Michael Morpurgo Beowulf by Rosemary Sutcliffe Otto of the Silver Hand by Howard Pyle The Princess and the Goblin by George MacDonald Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH by Robert C. O'Brien Caddie Woodlawn by Carol Ryrie Brink Fourth Grade Self-Read Books to date Warriors - The New Prophecy - Midnight Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix - in progress Warriors Book 6 - The Darkest Hour Warriors Book 5 - A Dangerous Path Warriors Book 4 - Rising Storm Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets The Adventures of King Midas by Lynne Reid Banks Harry the Poisonous Centipede by Lynne Reid Banks Holes - Louis Sachar Jeremy Thatcher, Dragon Hatcher The Monster's Ring Warriors Book 3 - Forest of Secrets Warriors Book 2 - Fire and Ice Aliens Ate My Homework Danny Champion of the World Hardy Boys - Hunting For Hidden Gold Hardy Boys - The Ghost at Skeleton Rock Matilda George's Marvelous Medicine The Phantom Tollbooth Huckleberry Finn (Great Illustrated Classics) The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde (Great Illustrated Classics) - decided it wasn't for him The Time Machine (Great Illustrated Classics) Mutiny on the Bounty (great Illustrated Classics) Robinson Crusoe (Great Illustrated Classics) 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (Great Illustrated Classics) Bridge to Terabithia-decided midway to save as a read-aloud and discuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Given that we're at a little over 1/2 way through grade 4, do I need to make ds read more required literature, and formally discuss/analyze it -at the expense of his choices? (or am I on the right track?) And, at almost age 10 is it necessary to slog through these heavy Pyle/Sutcliffe King Arthur books? When you say "slog," does that mean that your son doesn't understand and enjoy these books? If so, then yes, you need to analyze and discuss it, at least enough for him to get these stories. They're very exciting stories that a kid who likes Warriors should love -- they have all the same character types and plot elements. If he doesn't like them, I'd guess that's because he doesn't understand them. You want to get him to a point where he understands, and to do that, you have to stop and say, "What does that mean?" when his eyes glaze over. So, yes, I guess, that would be analysing them. ETA - Analysing a book is not some mystical process that you do for it's own sake. It's like adding spices to cooking. It's simply stopping to get the most meaning out of each part of the book. You can use a dictionary, the internet, Cliff's Notes, the knowledge of a professor, the knowledge of a friend or parent, or your own logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shasta Mom Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 I guess by "slog" I meant that both Pyle's KA and Sutcliff's trilogy look very long, and I think at 1/2 hr a day it may take a couple months to finish them. As far as understanding them, I think he would, because we've read shorter Pyle and Sutcliffe before which we LOVED. (They are above his reading level, though). I'm concerned that if I chose either of these that could take a long time to finish, we'll sacrifice other great reads due to time constraints. Also, do you think I should give him more required reading, that we would discuss, and tell him only after those are read that he can read warriors, etc? I honestly don't know what to do......:bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I guess by "slog" I meant that both Pyle's KA and Sutcliff's trilogy look very long, and I think at 1/2 hr a day it may take a couple months to finish them. Oh! That's a horse of a different color. Do you have a long-term great books plan? My plans involves reading aloud and discussing: - in K-3rd, adapted or picture book versions of literary masterpieces that correspond to our history cycle - in 4th-7th, young adult versions of the same great books, this time from authors such as Sutcliff & Pyle - in 8th-12th, the same literary masterpieces in the original. I don't read aloud more than once a day because I have a totally messed up jaw that will hurt like mad if I do. I want to read aloud the books we're discussing/analysing/dissecting/studying so that I can see on their faces how the kids react. My kids listen to fun books (like Warriors or Judy Blume or the Railway Children, anything that's not a "Great Book" that corresponds to our history area) on audio CD, or read them independently as soon as they're able. I don't discuss those with my children, but my older two (11 and 8) have GoodReads accounts and review their fun books there. I don't edit their reviews, but sometimes I help with prompting questions like, "When did you understand the protagonist's goal?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) If you are talking about the thread that ballzy wrote, I just want to point out that she was talking about a 12yo in 7th grade. Your son is younger than that. I wouldn't worry too much! :D I don't know....my oldest is almost 11, so I'm not that much ahead of you. But my opinion is that lit. study at the younger ages does not have to be filled with guides and worksheets, etc.. And I read someone's notes online recently, notes that were taken during a lecture SWB did somewhere, about lit. study. It made me feel so much better, because the impression I got was that grammar stage is for introducing classic stories through adaptations (and writing short narrations about them - so in this process, you are "discussing lit." with your kids - not too hard, eh?). Then logic stage was for LEARNING to analyze stories, using a few questions that aren't too hard to use (translation in my mind is that it'll take me grades 5-8 to learn how to lead ds through thinking about the story a little more in depth, but four years is a good long time). And that rhetoric stage is where you *introduce* the originals of the Great Books and lead them through one, two, and maybe 3 stages of analyzing them via TWEM. The notes I read said that SWB said it's a time for a brief handshake with the Great Books - if you teach them the process of analyzing them, with books they enjoy, then ideally they'll go on through life to think more deeply about books they choose to read. I also don't think it's necessary to "slog" through books at this young age - there are too many good books out there to enjoy on lit./history lists. My kids have tried books and given up on them, only to come around again a few years later and absolutely adore them. Dd8 LOVES Doctor Doolittle books now, whereas a year ago, she had no interest in them - I tried ever so slightly to persuade her, but didn't push it. She went on our library website the other day and ordered them all, and I think it's just because she's older now. I admire all those reading lists, too, but I definitely do not have time to read aloud all those books to my kids. So, I get them out of the library, have the kids take piles of books to their rooms every afternoon, and have them read. Once a week, they do a narration of one of them (usually their choice within my guidelines) with me. And many times, they will come and tell me about the other books they are reading, and thus, a "discussion" happens as part of life. I do read aloud in the evening, but it's not every book. They have read WAY more books than I ever could have read aloud. And this is the habit I want them to have. I'll teach them through the years how to think about what they're reading, but they already have a good base of stories in their minds. hth Edited February 2, 2009 by Colleen in NS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shasta Mom Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Thanks, to Colleen and Dragon. I guess I feel somewhat reassured, although still wonder if I should force some easier classics. Earlier this fall I gave ds The Witch of Blackbird Pond and he outright rejected it! After all the posts I read where folks said it was their family's favorite book, I was quite surprised. I also punted last night, and started Beorn the Proud. I've got some shorter King Arthur and Robin Hood books on hold at the library, so maybe I can put off the decision to read Pyle/Sutcliff a litte longer..... I'm curious, how long does Pyle's KA or RH take to read? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIch elle Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Don't worry about reading Sutcliff's longer works - it's not needed if you feel you will not enjoy it. I have them and NEVER read them - too much. My dh read aloud Witch of Blackbird Pond when my oldest was in gr. 5 as part of SL 3/4 and they hated it (they did finish it). I do read & discuss literature but not every book. We also use CLE reading (16 wk program/gr.) which is a reader/ workbook series that does the literary analysis, voc., comprehension, & more, and that covers everything for literature for us. If you want a formal reading program, I recommend CLE reading. Here's what's included in grade 5: SUNRISE READING 500 – Open Windows LightUnit 501 Vocabulary words Cause and effect Identifying strong, active verbs Describing story characters Identifying similes Defining words from context Choosing facts to support a statement Writing progressive degrees of a concept Working with personification Proving or disproving statements about a story Identifying and interpreting figures of speech Completing analogies Inferring facts not directly stated Understanding circumstantial evidence and proof Defining and using homographs Understanding the term idiom Interpreting common idioms Answering five W questions Numbering story events in order Telling what story characters learned from the way God worked Listing traits of story characters Working with rhythm and rhyme scheme in poetry LightUnit 502 Working with vocabulary words Defining words from context Understanding a proverb Creating an alternate story title Identifying character’s feelings Identifying the most important event in a story Completing analogies that have more than one correct answer Understanding a nonverbal message Predicting what happened after the story Inferring facts not directly stated Marking poetic rhythm Using principle and principal Scanning for answers or topics Evaluating story characters’ actions Identifying a story’s main lesson Understanding the meaning of prejudice and its foolishness Identifying a biography Defining foot as used in poetry Identifying metrical feet in a poem Thinking about race prejudice Working with synonyms Marking rhythm in a poem LightUnit 503 Working with vocabulary words Inferring facts not directly stated Telling what could have happened Identifying main ideas and summaries Describing story characters Identifying a characters fears and hardships Learning about other inventions of Benjamin Franklin Marking poetic rhythm and meter Working with perfect and imperfect rhyme Numbering unstated events in order Identifying figures of speech Defining and identifying metaphors Finding evidence to support statements Outlining a simple story plot Explaining a figure of speech Identifying metaphors, similes, and personification Defining words from their context Suggesting others whom the sinking of the Titanic would have affected Comparing a poem and a story Identifying main ideas of paragraphs Explaining the meanings of sentences Understanding conflict, internal conflict, and external conflict Identifying areas of conflict in the story LightUnit 504: Out in Nature Working with vocabulary words Identifying cause and effect Identifying the story purpose and details that further the story purpose Working with guide words Using the dictionary Finding metaphors in the Bible Inferring facts not directly stated Defining biography Identifying a metaphor in a poem Scanning to locate facts Writing an essay imagining he is Peter walking on the water Identifying a metaphor from the story Defining words from their context Marking the rhyme scheme of a poem Writing another title for the story Making a prediction Categorizing natural resources Naming reference books needed to find answers to given questions Identifying hints of how a character will act Defining free verse Identifying main ideas, story lessons, and summaries of stories Completing a poetic couplet Reading about KJV Bible Rewriting KJV phrases in modern English Identifying characters, setting, external and internal conflict in the story Understanding a character’s actions Imagining what might have happened LightUnit 505 Working with vocabulary words. Understanding story characters’ actions and feelings Describing story characters Working with main idea, story lesson, and summary Thinking about idle words Working with personification Making a simple outline of a story Categorizing words Explaining an idiom Identifying emotions as shown by words Interpreting figures of speech Defining circumstantial evidence Scanning for answers Imagining details not given Imagining story characters’ feelings and explaining possible reasons for their actions Telling what might have happened Defining words from their context Inferring facts not directly stated Identifying similes Choosing exact, specific verbs to replace weak ones Learning the term epigram Join the CLE yahoo group to see sample of CLE reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 although still wonder if I should force some easier classics. Earlier this fall I gave ds The Witch of Blackbird Pond and he outright rejected it! Have you read the Witch of Blackbird Pond? I think it's too old for a 9yo. I don't even want my almost 11yo to read it yet. Anyway, about easier classics, do you use the WTM lists for the ages of your kids? I have found them to be very helpful and plentiful. I've seen some other lists (like Sonlight) that have books that I think are too old for grammar stage kids (although I still use these other lists for reference to pick and choose from). I pretty much stick to the WTM lists of books and authors (you can reap a lot more by searching your library by author!) and have gotten tons of good books from it them. Have fun with it, try not to stress! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I guess by "slog" I meant that both Pyle's KA and Sutcliff's trilogy look very long, and I think at 1/2 hr a day it may take a couple months to finish them. One more idea - you could look into audio books for these longer ones that they could listen to in their play time, during chores, during meals. Then you can use your read aloud time for other books. And still schedule required reading time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Perhaps you need to set aside more time than half an hour to read "for school" (not the fun stuff for escape and entertainment that they do on their own)? I think you are right and that is not enough time to read the harder stuff. As they get older, the time needs to increase. TWTM says 2 hours a day to read great books for high school, for example. I always customize the lists for my children, too. TWoBP, for example, deals with older subject matter and is for high school, in my opinion. I pick out ones I think my boys would have half a chance of enjoying, if possible. Edited February 2, 2009 by Nan in Mass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.