The "professionals" critique the math programs: link

[Annabel Lee]

I found this while looking for discounted/used math books. I read quite a bit as I found it interesting. I'm not in any way endorsing what these sites or the links within links contain, but it is interesting info on math programs used in public schools - many of which people use for homeschooling as well. However, I do agree with most of the articles on EDM - I still would not recommend Everyday Math (Chicago math) to anyone. They use that up here in the public schools so I've experienced it 1st-hand. :glare:

 

http://www.illinoisloop.org/math.html#spiral

 

Also, if you scroll down just below halfway, there is a link to "Mathematically Correct", which has reveiws of many math programs used in public schools, although many of these are used by homeschoolers as well:

http://mathematicallycorrect.com/

 

It lists out strengths and weaknesses of programs, assuming the program levels are intended for matching grade level. It's helpful for me to see exactly where to supplement. :D My eyes are bigger than my belly when it comes to the proverbial full plate!

[oliveview]

Wow. Now I feel like I need to go back and rethink math some more. What a wealth of information is in those links. Thank you.

[Alessandra]

Neat link!!!!! I watched a few videos & will go back for more. Thanks!

[Spy Car]

While I won't begin to defend not teaching standard algorithms for solving multiplication and division problems, the "movie" "Math Education: An Inconvenient Truth" appears to support a very limited view of math education, one with an eye only to "solving" a "problem".

 

This type of math education, learning an algorithm (without really understanding the why behind it) is why most Americans are "math dunces". It's sad to see this unfortunate tendency to teach math as if we only want the "correct" answer reinforced on this website. It is deeply troubling, as it's a sure-fire road to math mediocracy.

 

An eye-opening book on the subject is Liping Ma's comparison of Asian and "American" math education methods. I wish every math teacher (parents included) would read this book. Algorithm-only math is simply inadequate for math education in the 21st Century.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Teaching-Elementary-Mathematics-Understanding/dp/0805829091

 

Bill

[nmoira]

An eye-opening book on the subject is Liping Ma's comparison of Asian and "American" math education methods. I wish every math teacher (parents included) would read this book. Algorithm-only math is simply inadequate for math education in the 21st Century.

:iagree:

I cannot recommend this book too highly.

[St. Theophan Academy]

love the remarks on "the death spiral" - this is why we ditched our first math program, it was so annoying to my K child to not learn the whole concept (for example, telling time) before having to be thrown into a new topic or idea!

[fractalgal]

I found this while looking for discounted/used math books. I read quite a bit as I found it interesting. I'm not in any way endorsing what these sites or the links within links contain, but it is interesting info on math programs used in public schools - many of which people use for homeschooling as well. However, I do agree with most of the articles on EDM - I still would not recommend Everyday Math (Chicago math) to anyone. They use that up here in the public schools so I've experienced it 1st-hand. :glare:

 

http://www.illinoisloop.org/math.html#spiral

 

Also, if you scroll down just below halfway, there is a link to "Mathematically Correct", which has reveiws of many math programs used in public schools, although many of these are used by homeschoolers as well:

http://mathematicallycorrect.com/

 

It lists out strengths and weaknesses of programs, assuming the program levels are intended for matching grade level. It's helpful for me to see exactly where to supplement. :D My eyes are bigger than my belly when it comes to the proverbial full plate!

 

Here is another good link from http://www.nychold.org/#curr-rev about rigorous college prep programs.

 

Rigorous College Preparatory Programs

 

The California Department of Education has a careful content-based adoption process for K-8 curricula. Reports may be found through the CDE site for Mathematics Frameworks and Curricular Materials. David Klein at CSU Northridge also has links to Content Review Panel reports on middle school mathematics programs.

Saxon

 

Grades K-8 approximately.

Saxon Publishers.

Mathematically Correct has a Comparative review of Sadlier, Saxon, and McGraw-Hill K-6 mathematics.

Singapore Primary Mathematics

 

Grades K-6 Singapore.

Singapore Textbooks.

Sadlier

 

Grades K-5? The series seems not well known in New York City. Mathematically Correct has a Comparative review of Sadlier, Saxon, and McGraw-Hill K-6 mathematics. We also note a review, Progress in Mathematics research base, done on behalf of the program publisher.

Prentice Hall Algebra

 

P-H Middle School Algebra

 

Structure and Method

 

Published by McDougal-Littell. There is a two-volume middle school component under the title Mathematics: Structure and Method, Course 1 and Course 2, by Dolciani, Sorgenfrey, and Graham; and a high school Algebra component in two volumes: Algebra I by Brown, Dolciani, Sorgenfrey, and Cole, and Algebra II and Trigonometry by Brown, Dolciani, Sorgenfrey, and Kane. Don't confuse it with Concepts and Skills of the same publisher.

The Middle School texts (Course 1 and Course 2) and the Algebra I text of the Structure and Method series were reviewed for the California Textbook adoptions in 2002. There is also a Mathematically Correct review of an earlier (1994) edition of the Algebra I text.

Singapore New Elementary Mathematics

 

Grades 7-10 Singapore.

Singapore Textbooks.

(Back to Top of Page, to the Site Outline, to the NYC HOLD News page, or to the NYC HOLD Letters and Testimony Page)

[oliveview]

 

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Teaching-Elementary-Mathematics-Understanding/dp/0805829091

 

Bill

 

Thank you for this resource. I have ordered it and it will be here tomorrow.

[ElizabethB]

 

An eye-opening book on the subject is Liping Ma's comparison of Asian and "American" math education methods. I wish every math teacher (parents included) would read this book. Algorithm-only math is simply inadequate for math education in the 21st Century.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Teaching-Elementary-Mathematics-Understanding/dp/0805829091

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

 

It's a great, must read book. It has given me several good ideas for my daughter and how to better teach her. (I can tutor algebra, can explain it different ways and explain it in simple English, I was shocked to discover that without practice or really knowing and understanding how to explain things several ways, I wasn't that great at teaching elementary level math.)

 

I also recommend Hung-Hsi Wu, especially his fractions and the math K-12 teachers need to know. I'll be re-reading more about fractions in a few years when we get there. (scroll to bottom for his latest papers)

 

http://math.berkeley.edu/~wu/

Edited January 27, 2009 by ElizabethB

[fractalgal]

:iagree:

 

It's a great, must read book. It has given me several good ideas for my daughter and how to better teach her. (I can tutor algebra, can explain it different ways and explain it in simple English, I was shocked to discover that without practice or really knowing and understanding how to explain things several ways, I wasn't that great at teaching elementary level math.)

 

I also recommend Hung-Hsi Wu, especially his fractions and the math K-12 teachers need to know. I'll be re-reading more about fractions in a few years when we get there. (scroll to bottom for his latest papers)

 

http://math.berkeley.edu/~wu/

 

Dr. Wu recommended Saxon K-3. He and Gerald Beer reviewed the

Saxon program for K-3, and strongly recommended approval.

 

Here is the conclusion written by Beer and Wu about Saxon K-3.

"The Saxon K-3 program is an unconventional yet effective means

to meet the state standards for the early grades. There are no

textbooks for the program; rather students are supplied

individual lesson folders that contain handout sheets devoted to

drill problems, guided class practice, and homework, even in

the first grade. Occasionally, there will be some special

in-class project in the folder. These handouts contain neither

explanations nor definitiions; in essence, they are worksheets."

"Despite the unusual format which makes it difficult for the

Program to explicitly meet some of the content criteria, we are

in fact recommending it enthusiastically. This program,

thoughtfully written by Nancy Larsen, does an extraordinary job

of guiding students, anticipating pitfalls, developing

mathematical reasoning appropriate to these grades, and

automatizing computational skills. The Program not only gives a

balanced treatment of the strands, but frequently covers areas

that should have been more explicit in the standards but weren't.

The Saxon program somehow succeeds at being minimalist and at the

same time humanistic; it has something for visual/kinesthethic

learners and is not just mathematics for left-brainers."

If the other summary is going to be forwarded widely, this

should be added and sent as well.

[Hannah]

Thank you for this resource. I have ordered it and it will be here tomorrow.

 

This is completely off-topic, but I'm just soooo jealous that you can order something today and have it tomorrow!!

If I get something within 3 weeks, I think it was quick!

[Spy Car]

Thank you for this resource. I have ordered it and it will be here tomorrow.

 

Wonderful. I hope it proves as valuable to you as it was to me.

 

While Dr Ma's focuses more on cross cultural comparisons of how math concepts have traditionally been taught in public schools in the United States vs Asia, and, while it does include numerous "examples", it is more descriptive that proscriptive. That is to say this book won't teach you all you need to know in order to teach math. It points the way, but it is not a math "curriculum".

 

Her book did , however, solidify in my mind what I wanted from math programs. As well as clarifying the sort of approaches I want to avoid.

 

I'm concerned about the articles I read on "Illinois Loop". There may very well be "fuzzy math" books used in the public schools these days. But the answer is not to return to the flawed approach of the public schools of the 1960s, and use an analogue-only "solutions based" texts as the alternative.

 

And see "manipulatives" lampooned in the comic on their webpage [as in a boy can't solve a problem because he can't find his scissors] makes me think this group has an agenda that is "wrong-headed," and that they are doing a disservice to math education.

 

I think as a "hive-mind" we know how many great math programs both use manipulatives, and teach math concepts, while at the same time giving students the ability to "calculate" solutions.

 

Liping Ma's book makes the case far better than I ever could. I hope it proves valuable to you and your children.

 

Bill

[oliveview]

Wonderful. I hope it proves as valuable to you as it was to me.

 

While Dr Ma's focuses more on cross cultural comparisons of how math concepts have traditionally been taught in public schools in the United States vs Asia, and, while it does include numerous "examples", it is more descriptive that proscriptive. That is to say this book won't teach you all you need to know in order to teach math. It points the way, but it is not a math "curriculum".

 

Her book did , however, solidify in my mind what I wanted from math programs. As well as clarifying the sort of approaches I want to avoid.

 

I'm concerned about the articles I read on "Illinois Loop". There may very well be "fuzzy math" books used in the public schools these days. But the answer is not to return to the flawed approach of the public schools of the 1960s, and use an analogue-only "solutions based" texts as the alternative.

 

And see "manipulatives" lampooned in the comic on their webpage [as in a boy can't solve a problem because he can't find his scissors] makes me think this group has an agenda that is "wrong-headed," and that they are doing a disservice to math education.

 

I think as a "hive-mind" we know how many great math programs both use manipulatives, and teach math concepts, while at the same time giving students the ability to "calculate" solutions.

 

Liping Ma's book makes the case far better than I ever could. I hope it proves valuable to you and your children.

 

Bill

 

Thank you again. I am looking for an understanding of why and what. I guess I thought I really researched math and I think on some level I did, but I see now there is so much more. I look forward to reading the book and the other articles that were listed.

 

You are right to always have a critical eye about bias. It can be right in front of your face or hidden down deep. Math is an area that I am out of my comfort zone and I am glad to do the background reading now with the hope that knowledge will make this journey somewhat easier and help me meet the needs of my children.

 

My gut huntch is that this will not change our currnt curriculum choices but you never know! :001_smile: Our children are still you and we use both Saxon and Singapore and I have been pleased so far with how they have been progressing.

[oliveview]

This is completely off-topic, but I'm just soooo jealous that you can order something today and have it tomorrow!!

If I get something within 3 weeks, I think it was quick!

 

Well, as things go, I got an email from amazon that my shipment is delayed due to an ice storm!! :D

[oliveview]

(Some background about our math journey. We are using Saxon as our spine. Both sons (8 and almost 7) are working in Saxon 3. I have used Singapore as a "sometimes" supplement. Saxon has been a struggle as of late and I'm not really sure why. The last couple of weeks I have gone back to Singapore and the boys have been moving quickly through their books. Ds 8 is finishing 1B and ds 7 is finishing 1A. These are below the level of Saxon but I had thought this was a better place to start when I got these books about 9 months ago. I had also bought the RS math games box about 6 months ago. We just started using them in the past few weeks.)

 

Well, I got my copy of Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics, and what I am struck most by is how little I know and how much I need to learn.:lol:

 

I have read the section on Subtraction and regrouping twice now and I think I will read it again before going any further.

 

We have been very inconsistent with Singapore until the last few weeks. While working with Singapore I was frustrated with how it was presented to the student. I couldn't understand why they wanted to teach all of the subtraction that required regrouping without memorizing math facts first. It seemed to me like it was forcing them to count on their fingers to get the answer and I didn't like that.

 

Now I get it!! What they are teaching is the decomposition of the number and multiple ways of regrouping. If they knew the math facts too well before teaching this concept then they would know the answer and not be forced to look at the different methods of regrouping. I see that my level of knowledge in elementary math is more on the line with the pseudo-conceptual understanding and at times is almost just procedural. My "knowledge package" needs to increase. I loved the discussion about giving the children the manipulatives and how the teacher just "discussed" with them the different methods they could use to come to the same result. I am a well educated person by most normal standards and I had no idea there was so much to regrouping! :lol: I was also intrigued by the idea that you are decomposing not borrowing. It seems trivial but it makes all the sense in the world now that I think about it.

 

What I have learned is that my knowledge of elementary math is very low and can have a huge impact on the kiddos. I now plan to go back and go through Elementary Math for Teachers by Singapore.

 

We are going to take a break from Saxon, and I don't know when or if we will go back. I am going to use Singapore as our spine from here on out. This week they will go up to 2A and 1B. I already have them doing the IP and CWP books. I wanted them to "think" about math in different ways and have a rich foundation in math. That was the reason I had them in both Saxon and Singapore. I guess I just had no idea how little I knew, and how much my background and abilities would impact them.

 

I still want to find anothe program to help is develop a righ background in math. I see now the value in going slower and thinking deeper. I want to check out MEP and Miquon. Oh how I wish there were more hours in the day!!

 

Thank you for the suggestion on the book. It has turned my thinking upside down and there is much more to read!:D

[Retired]

I really enjoyed the articles on dumping down Algebra.

 

Thanks for the great links.

[cathmom]

I don't understand why Saxon would be recommended when it spirals. That is why I had to stop using it with my second daughter. We quit halfway through Saxon 2 because she wasn't understanding ANYTHING. They would introduce something, she wouldn't get it, it would go on the next lesson, she wouldn't get that, then it would go on to something else and she wouldn't get that. She was completely lost and confused!

[myfatherslily]

I don't understand why Saxon would be recommended when it spirals. That is why I had to stop using it with my second daughter. We quit halfway through Saxon 2 because she wasn't understanding ANYTHING. They would introduce something, she wouldn't get it, it would go on the next lesson, she wouldn't get that, then it would go on to something else and she wouldn't get that. She was completely lost and confused!

 

I am about to go read the original links, but wanted to add that this was the exact problem that *I* personally had with Saxon, as a student. I was homeschooled all my years, beginning with A Beka in K (at least, my mom thinks it was A Beka... she's not sure and I don't remember either!!), then Saxon starting with... 7th grade I guess (Saxon 87, I think). By Algebra 2 I was completely, utterly lost. We went through it again the next year and I was still lost. I covered the SAME ground again in college and managed to get B's, but still felt completely lost. I've always felt like there has been something missing in my overall math comprehension. As mentioned in previous posts, I could always memorize short-term what I was supposed to do for problems in THAT LESSON, but I never understood WHY. Then we'd be on to something new.

 

Obviously Saxon is working wonderfully for alot of people (my homeschooled husband included), but *I* was not one of them!

 

I do believe that comprehension should be sought after much more than memorization. It's something I'm still seeking!!:)

[Spy Car]

Well, I got my copy of Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics by Liping Ma], and what I am struck most by is how little I know and how much I need to learn.:lol:

 

I have read the section on Subtraction and regrouping twice now and I think I will read it again before going any further.

 

We have been very inconsistent with Singapore until the last few weeks. While working with Singapore I was frustrated with how it was presented to the student. I couldn't understand why they wanted to teach all of the subtraction that required regrouping without memorizing math facts first. It seemed to me like it was forcing them to count on their fingers to get the answer and I didn't like that.

 

Now I get it!! What they are teaching is the decomposition of the number and multiple ways of regrouping. If they knew the math facts too well before teaching this concept then they would know the answer and not be forced to look at the different methods of regrouping. I see that my level of knowledge in elementary math is more on the line with the pseudo-conceptual understanding and at times is almost just procedural. My "knowledge package" needs to increase. I loved the discussion about giving the children the manipulatives and how the teacher just "discussed" with them the different methods they could use to come to the same result. I am a well educated person by most normal standards and I had no idea there was so much to regrouping! :lol: I was also intrigued by the idea that you are decomposing not borrowing. It seems trivial but it makes all the sense in the world now that I think about it.

 

What I have learned is that my knowledge of elementary math is very low and can have a huge impact on the kiddos. I now plan to go back and go through Elementary Math for Teachers by Singapore.

 

Hurray!

 

Liping Ma's book seems to be doing for you the same thing it did for me. That is, opening my eyes to what I don't know, and how I could have easily passed on "procedurally correct" but never-the-less very limited math skills to my child.

 

This work has really motivated me to "teach" math differently. I'm so happy that I discovered this book. And I'm very pleased you are having the same experience. I said it before, but I wish every teacher/parent would read this work, because it would change math education in a highly positive way.

 

The Miquon/Cuisenaire Rod work we've done with my son has really brought home the "re-grouping" part of math. For him it now seems second nature. It's these types of insights that make home education so exciting.

 

I'm happy :001_smile:

 

Bill

[oliveview]

Hurray!

 

Liping Ma's book seems to be doing for you the same thing it did for me. That is, opening my eyes to what I don't know, and how I could have easily passed on "procedurally correct" but never-the-less very limited math skills to my child.

 

This work has really motivated me to "teach" math differently. I'm so happy that I discovered this book. And I'm very pleased you are having the same experience. I said it before, but I wish every teacher/parent would read this work, because it would change math education in a highly positive way.

 

The Miquon/Cuisenaire Rod work we've done with my son has really brought home the "re-grouping" part of math. For him it now seems second nature. It's these types of insights that make home education so exciting.

 

I'm happy :001_smile:

 

Bill

 

Yes, this is an excellent way to state what I am experiencing. I really do have somemore decisions to make from here but I am excited about where we are going. I lack confidence in teaching math. I have never felt like I "understood" math even though I have taken math up to PhD level statistics. I think I always had this idea that I would just get the basics in the kids and then somewhere in the middle, or so, my dh would take over. Ugghhh! What was I thinking? Now I really have my eyes opened to jsut how important the basics are and it's more than procedural!

 

Thank you so much for this push! I needed it. It's a great book and I highly recommend it to anyone teaching their children or anyone else's children!

[MSherman]

So, Bill, what Math curriculum did you settle on? I am going to order the book you mentioned, but am curious as to which direction it led you?

 

Thanks, for what looks like a great resource.

 

Michael

[Spy Car]

So, Bill, what Math curriculum did you settle on? I am going to order the book you mentioned, but am curious as to which direction it led you?

 

Thanks, for what looks like a great resource.

 

Michael

 

My son is still pre-k. But we are doing a very eclectic mix strongly influenced by Miquon and Cuisenaire Rods, but including Singapore Earlybird Standards Edition, MEP (Hungarian/British math), and a Japanese math program, plus we are just started adding some Right Start elements (and hope to add more soon), base-10 blocks, geo-board, and a number of home-made manipulatives.

 

So it's a wild mix.

 

Some of the things we've been discussing in this thread, it may interest you.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81236

 

Bill

[cathmom]

I'm going to have to order this book, but it's awfully expensive. I began rethinking math education in 2001 at a homeschool conference. I heard someone from HSLDA speak, and he gave statistics showing that homeschoolers were doing tons better than public schoolers at language arts, and only a little better at math. Then I went to a session by Susannah Scheffer, who used to work for Holt Associates, about unschooling, and she said that many unschoolers use text books for math. Those two things connected in my head and a light bulb went off! Homeschoolers do slightly better in math probably because of the individual teaching. So I knew I wanted something different in math, but didn't know what that could be, until I began researching Montessori. Children who went to Montessori schools in elementary do much better with math. But since I can't send my dc to a Montessori school, and I can't afford all the materials and don't have time to get trained in it, I was stuck. That's what led me to Right Start, since it was written by a Montessori teacher who studied how they teach math in Japan. We're only on Lesson 11 in A, but I like it a lot. My three older dc all do not like math - I think that might be the "Saxon effect." And I am not sure that my oldest ever understood fractions.

[WTMindy]

While I won't begin to defend not teaching standard algorithms for solving multiplication and division problems, the "movie" "Math Education: An Inconvenient Truth" appears to support a very limited view of math education, one with an eye only to "solving" a "problem".

 

This type of math education, learning an algorithm (without really understanding the why behind it) is why most Americans are "math dunces". It's sad to see this unfortunate tendency to teach math as if we only want the "correct" answer reinforced on this website. It is deeply troubling, as it's a sure-fire road to math mediocracy.

 

An eye-opening book on the subject is Liping Ma's comparison of Asian and "American" math education methods. I wish every math teacher (parents included) would read this book. Algorithm-only math is simply inadequate for math education in the 21st Century.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Teaching-Elementary-Mathematics-Understanding/dp/0805829091

 

Bill

 

This is true, Bill. The problem lies in the fact that in a classroom there is simply NOT enough time to teach the algorithms AND the why. So, the math pendulum swings back and forth between these two extremes. When we were kids, we just memorized the algorithms and kids had no idea what they were doing or solving. Now, the kids are so constructivist in their math education that they don't know the basics. Different problems, but either way they can't solve a problem. The answer lies in doing both well, but there just is not time in a public school classroom. But, that is one of the reasons why we homeschool. And one of the reasons that I use two math curriculums. (I'm using MUS and Singapore NEM) because I feel that MUS teaches the basics and algorhithms (although makes an attempt at problem solving) and Singapre does a GREAT job of teaching mathematical thinking skills and is very rigorous.

 

Just my random thoughts!

 

Thanks to the OP for linking that site.

[Spy Car]

I'm going to have to order this book, but it's awfully expensive. I began rethinking math education in 2001 at a homeschool conference. I heard someone from HSLDA speak, and he gave statistics showing that homeschoolers were doing tons better than public schoolers at language arts, and only a little better at math. Then I went to a session by Susannah Scheffer, who used to work for Holt Associates, about unschooling, and she said that many unschoolers use text books for math. Those two things connected in my head and a light bulb went off! Homeschoolers do slightly better in math probably because of the individual teaching. So I knew I wanted something different in math, but didn't know what that could be, until I began researching Montessori. Children who went to Montessori schools in elementary do much better with math. But since I can't send my dc to a Montessori school, and I can't afford all the materials and don't have time to get trained in it, I was stuck. That's what led me to Right Start, since it was written by a Montessori teacher who studied how they teach math in Japan. We're only on Lesson 11 in A, but I like it a lot. My three older dc all do not like math - I think that might be the "Saxon effect." And I am not sure that my oldest ever understood fractions.

 

Cathmom, you could try your library. I'm not sure Liping Ma's book is a work one necessarily needs to "own". It's not really a "how to". Rather it clarifies the ways a procedural and "math fact" education is inadequate. And will keep you from ever hearing the word "borrowing" again without cringing. While it is (to my mind) a "must read", I read it as a library book.

 

The good news is leading you to choose a program like Right Start would likely be the end result of reading Liping Ma's book. If you feel like firing up your confidence in that path, reading this book will provide inspiration and validation for your new path.

 

All the best,

Bill

Edited February 11, 2009 by Spy Car

[Alana in Canada]

Love threads like this, thank ou all.

 

I just requested the Liping Ma book from Interlibrary Loan. The local University's Education dept. library has it.

[myfatherslily]

Oooh, excellent idea! Our county library doesn't have it, but you gave me the idea to check the university my husband attends. They do have it! Now to just talk him into picking it up for me....:)

[Christie_P]

Just ordered Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics: Teachers' Understanding of Fundamental Mathematics in China and the United States.

 

Glad for this thread and I am excited about reading it! \

 

Oldest DD is going into 1st grade.

Just finished Saxon Math K, received Saxon 1 and was overwhelmed by the amount of review required every day! I can already tell that The Meeting in Saxon K was killing her excitement about math - I was getting rolling eyes and slumped shoulders because, come on Mom - she already has mastered this stuff and was B-O-R-E-D! So I finally listed to my DH who has concerns about Saxon all along, and started researching Math Mammoth. About ready to buy it, but I want to hear from others any negative critiques. All I can find so far are positive reviews online and there HAS to be SOME negative reviews out there somewhere!

 

Any help? Thanks!

[Joyofsixreboot]

I have read the Liping Ma book. We use Singapore, RS, MM and CLE. The fact I wanted Asian style mastery math has been over-ruled by my kids love of spiral, non-Asian CLE. :001_huh:

[grace'smom]

If you look on the Amazon page for Liping Ma's book you can click "other editions" in the formats box, and there is a copy of her 1999 edition for 3.00 (plus 3.99 shipping). That's the one I purchased and I'm fairly certain the basic info is the same...

[mymonkeybug]

love the remarks on "the death spiral" - this is why we ditched our first math program, it was so annoying to my K child to not learn the whole concept (for example, telling time) before having to be thrown into a new topic or idea!

 

Exactly why our ds, now 11, was failing horribly at math while in ps. We pulled him two years ago and man what a difference in him with math. It has taken this entire two year period, but he is finally(I think)out of that, "I HATE math" phase and the crying phase when that dirty four letter 'M' word is mentioned.

:thumbup1:

[....]

I have read the Liping Ma book. We use Singapore, RS, MM and CLE. The fact I wanted Asian style mastery math has been over-ruled by my kids love of spiral, non-Asian CLE. :001_huh:

 

You sound just like us. We use Singapore + CLE. I'm also going to check out the Liping Ma book.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

:glare: I finally gave in and bought the Liping Ma book thanks to this old thread.

 

Sometimes I don't like you guys. I'm never going to have money to buy decent clothes with which to replace these rags I'm wearing at this rate. :glare:

 

 

 

 

 

:lol:

[Spy Car]

:glare: I finally gave in and bought the Liping Ma book thanks to this old thread.

 

Sometimes I don't like you guys. I'm never going to have money to buy decent clothes with which to replace these rags I'm wearing at this rate. :glare:

 

 

 

 

 

:lol:

 

Today seems like the day for old math threads. I hope you find the Liping Ma book as enriching and eye-opening as it was for many of us!

 

Bill

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

Today seems like the day for old math threads. I hope you find the Liping Ma book as enriching and eye-opening as it was for many of us!

 

Bill

 

I will let you know. I had been thinking that because I wasn't educated in the United States and a lot of the issues are unfamiliar to me that I haven't been touched by them at all and therefore didn't need to read the book but after reading this thread and the complete change of heart a previous poster had I was encouraged to not be presumptuous. ;)

 

Also, I read some of that original article and your comment about their comment regarding the use of manipulatives. This quote didn't sit right with me (theirs), "the use of a particular set of manipulatives usually did not transfer into faster or greater proficiency in the symbolic, written worlds of math and language." I'm wondering if I'm right here in thinking that "faster or greater proficiency in the symbolic" isn't even necessarily the point unless I'm misunderstanding and "faster or greater proficiency" includes depth in understanding of what the symbolic is symbolic of.

 

I realize this was from 2 years ago :D but if you return to this thread I'd appreciate a clarification on what you meant by "wrong-headed".

[boscopup]

For those whose libraries use NetLibrary (http://netlibrary.com) for ebooks and audio books, they have this book as one of their ebooks. I have it open in my browser right now, for free. :D

[Spy Car]

I will let you know. I had been thinking that because I wasn't educated in the United States and a lot of the issues are unfamiliar to me that I haven't been touched by them at all and therefore didn't need to read the book but after reading this thread and the complete change of heart a previous poster had I was encouraged to not be presumptuous. ;)

 

Also, I read some of that original article and your comment about their comment regarding the use of manipulatives. This quote didn't sit right with me (theirs), "the use of a particular set of manipulatives usually did not transfer into faster or greater proficiency in the symbolic, written worlds of math and language." I'm wondering if I'm right here in thinking that "faster or greater proficiency in the symbolic" isn't even necessarily the point unless I'm misunderstanding and "faster or greater proficiency" includes depth in understanding of what the symbolic is symbolic of.

 

I realize this was from 2 years ago :D but if you return to this thread I'd appreciate a clarification on what you meant by "wrong-headed".

 

You are clear :001_smile:

 

I think they are missing the point about the purpose of manipulatives. They (with the exception of the abacus in some cultures) are not intended to be calculators. They can help children understand concepts (especially when young).

 

Bill

[Annabel Lee]

I had forgotten about this thread; thanks for resuscitating it. Rereading it, I see that my own math knowledge was weak by my assessment of the sites I linked in my OP. Good eye, Bill. Today is one of our bi-weekly library days and I'll be getting Dr. Ma's book... finally. I utilize some Singapore math in our homeschool, but I run into the same thing mentioned above - kids who already have facts memorized and don't see the point in going through demonstrative steps or playing with the numbers any further. My ds9 has slowly declined from being a bright-eyed, hungry-for-math-knowledge boy in pre-K through 1st to an "Ugh, math? Why do we have to do MATH?" kid now. This, despite me jumping through hoops and changing programs (only after considering it for a looooong time). I suppose this just goes right along with what I always come back to about other subjects, literature being the most recent: it won't matter what curriculum I use if I don't have enough knowlege on that subject to properly discern what I want to know about it, or to properly utilize it, knowing it's ins and outs, vs. checking off the boxes and reading from a script (not that scripted is bad... I actually like scripted). I'm not looking to switch math programs, but it's time I got on top of math and really know it before it overwhelms me in logic stage (next year!). Hopefully I can reinspire my son by sharing things I find exciting in Ma's book.

[In2why]

For those whose libraries use NetLibrary (http://netlibrary.com) for ebooks and audio books, they have this book as one of their ebooks. I have it open in my browser right now, for free. :D

 

 

Thanks I am able to read Ma Lipings book this way too. I just finished the chapter on subtraction and find it fascinating.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

You are clear :001_smile:

 

I think they are missing the point about the purpose of manipulatives. They (with the exception of the abacus in some cultures) are not intended to be calculators. They can help children understand concepts (especially when young).

 

Bill

 

That's good news - for me I mean, not so much for them.

 

I had a lightbulb moment today and finally have an appreciation for the abacus so I'm having a good math day all around.

 

 

Arcticmom, it's neat to hear back from you on this after all this time. I'd love hear back from you again after you read Liping Ma and to hear how things go with your son.

[cholderby]

I just ordered the Ma book too. I am really hoping that it helps me recover from my own death spiral in the choosing of math curriculum. Probably because I am least comfortable with math as a subject, I just can't seem to get a handle on the right path.

 

We own RS A, but my K'ner finds it to be too slow. And I don't like th almount of prep. I ordered a couple of CLE wkbks just to get us through the end of the year.

 

The only upside I can see at this point is that my oldest is in K so we haven't gone far down any path yet.

[Christie_P]

Got my used 1999 edition of Liping Ma and excited! plus overwhelmed and a bit intimidated (now it means I have to re-learn math!!)

 

But I am seriously concerned with the state of homeschooling math in my local circles... I can't find anyone who is getting into any serious math in the high school level. Yes, I know not everyone will be inclined to go past algebra - but somebody, somewhere in our homeschool social circles has to be getting into trig and calculus!

 

it won't matter what curriculum I use if I don't have enough knowlege on that subject to properly discern what I want to know about it, or to properly utilize it, knowing it's ins and outs, vs. checking off the boxes and reading from a script (not that scripted is bad... I actually like scripted). I'm not looking to switch math programs, but it's time I got on top of math and really know it before it overwhelms me in logic stage (next year!). Hopefully I can reinspire my son by sharing things I find exciting in Ma's book.

 

 

I absolutely agree! I used to wonder if other phonics programs are better, but now after teaching my daughter just 1/3 of OPGTR plus supplemental online reading on my part, I understand teaching phonics so much better and know that I could teach anybody to read with any phonics program, simply because of what I have learned. It's the teacher-knowledge and understanding, not the curriculum.

 

So to hear of a student that has been Saxon-bred all the way to 7th grade, and is now floundering as it begins to introduce Algebra material, and the mother just wants to blindly switch curriculums because she is so math-phobic that she never even sits down and goes over the material with her daughter - she has no idea which concepts her daughter is struggling with - all she knows is her test scores are going down... it makes me want to cry! You don't need to switch curriculums - you need to find out what she understands, what she doesn't and work with her! But the momma doesn't want to touch math with a 10 ft pole! UGH!

[strawnfam]

I have always hated/dreaded math for myself, and was looking forward to doing math with my kids so I could learn more about it now that I am older. This thread inspired me to check out the Liping Ma book from the library. It is on the way, so I have high hopes to have my eyes opened, and blinders removed by reading it. Thanks so much for the recommendation!

 

Jenna

[Spy Car]

I have always hated/dreaded math for myself, and was looking forward to doing math with my kids so I could learn more about it now that I am older. This thread inspired me to check out the Liping Ma book from the library. It is on the way, so I have high hopes to have my eyes opened, and blinders removed by reading it. Thanks so much for the recommendation!

 

Jenna

 

Welcome to the forum Jenna!

 

I hope you benefit from reading Dr Ma's book as much as I did.

 

Bill

[bry's-gal]

Just found this thread and am so excited to get the book! I LOVE math and love to teach it to older kids! I'm having such a hard time with teaching the basic math stuff to my kids though! I don't know if this has been addressed but would love some feedback on it. What are thoughts on memorizing the basic math facts and what is the best way to do that?

[RahRah]

An eye-opening book on the subject is Liping Ma's comparison of Asian and "American" math education methods. I wish every math teacher (parents included) would read this book. Algorithm-only math is simply inadequate for math education in the 21st Century.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Teaching-Elementary-Mathematics-Understanding/dp/0805829091

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

 

I highly recommend this book too!

[RahRah]

love the remarks on "the death spiral" - this is why we ditched our first math program, it was so annoying to my K child to not learn the whole concept (for example, telling time) before having to be thrown into a new topic or idea!

 

:iagree:

 

We switched math programs for the same reason....DS hated the repetition without enough "meat"....

[Dana]

Just found this thread and am so excited to get the book! I LOVE math and love to teach it to older kids! I'm having such a hard time with teaching the basic math stuff to my kids though! I don't know if this has been addressed but would love some feedback on it. What are thoughts on memorizing the basic math facts and what is the best way to do that?

 

I want to be sure that my son has his basic math facts memorized.

At his age, IMO, that includes addition facts 0 - 10, multiplication tables 0-12.

 

We haven't started by straight memorization. We spent time on understanding (number bonds for addition/subtraction, multiplication as repeated addition (we'll look at other models as a scalar quantity (think enlarging or shrinking on a copy machine) later)). But once he's got the "understanding", we do drill to get the memorization. Flashcards, drill on the DS, watching Schoolhouse Rock, quizzes.