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Please share how you "do history" ala WTM Great Books...


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I don't mean so much what your dc does - that is in WTM. But, how do you know that your child is actually learning (and, learning the important stuff)?

 

I am just about ready to purchase TOG *just* for my high schooler *just* because it will hold my hand and help me hold ds accountable for actually learning history, not just creating a list of happenings that he can turn in before he reads a book. I'm afraid without a "cheat sheet", I won't know what to discuss and what to expect him to learn.

 

But, golly, with my dh having to make *so many* cuts at his office, I hate spending THAT much money just to have someone holding my hand for really one subject. (I love WEM and really don't have qualms about doing the lit - it is really the history that has me flummoxed!)

 

Does anyone use the Spielvogel less as a reference source, and more as an actual textbook to be studied? Do you use the Teacher Edition and give tests, etc.? (I know - that's not really "classical education", is it?)

 

Maybe I should just give in and do SWB's Ancient History book? (I really hate the lack of color! And, knowing the series won't be finished by the time we are done with high school.)

 

Openly "Quaking and Quivering" ;)

and hoping you guys will show me something I haven't thought of!

 

Thanks!

Edited by Rhondabee
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Does anyone use the Spielvogel less as a reference source, and more as an actual textbook to be studied? Do you use the Teacher Edition and give tests, etc.? (I know - that's not really "classical education", is it?)

 

 

Good morning,

Spielvogel's Human Odyssey can be found used w/ a TM for about $40-50 depending on edition. I will test also. It really is a beautiful text w/ great pictures. SWB's book would be more for the narrative of history -- not so much facts & figures, as with HO.

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Hi Rhonda,

 

I bought a $12 Human Odyssey from amazon used books about 3 years back. No teacher manual; we just read it aloud together and discuss, discuss, discuss all along the way to help the information "stick" and to make connections (e.g.: "what happened last time we read that led up to this?"; '"what do you think will be the consequence of this?" "that sounds like the same thing that happened __ years earlier -- what does it remind you of?" "who was instrumental in setting this scene earlier?")

 

I also constantly point to a map to show where countries are, how close/far apart events were taking, etc., etc. (e.g.: mountain ranges, seas, and wide rivers really do make effective boundaries in earlier history!)

 

We read other history resources. For example, this year we're doing 20th century, so we're reading about 400 pages in the Spielvogel, plus SOTW4 for a simplier, more story-like version for the connections, plus we "review" at the end of a decade by dipping into parts of Our Century in Pictures for Young People, and The Visual History of the Modern World -- which also gives us a much more "visual" approach to the history.

 

I also have the boys solo read historical fiction (a lot checked out from the library, or bought used -- and selecting a lot of Sonlight book suggestions means we can more easily resell) to have a better sense of the times, the culture, and the impact of historical events on people.

 

We watch documentaries (the library or Netflix) which do a *great* job of making connections and telling the story of history visually. We watch historical feature films (the library or Netflix), which give us a feel for the clothing, the culture, the mindsets of the times in which they are set. I figure between pictures, movies, and discussion -- *something* has to stick! :tongue_smilie:

 

And then we do some of the Great Books (some in that history time frame, some not) along with lit. guides, which also sometimes prompts references to the history.

 

 

re: your worries about retention

 

I'm not a big test-giver, but I do (sometimes) have them write out the answers to the "in the chapter" section review questions in Human Odyssey for quizzes, and write out answers to the "end of the chapter" review questions as tests. I allow most of it to be "open book" so they can practice looking up things in a textbook -- and get a sneaky solo review having to skim the text looking for a specific answer. :D

 

The other thing we're doing is an idea I'm borrowing from Brenda in MA:

 

20 Time Line Entries per Decade (or Century)

I made a form for each boy to fill out in which they have to jot down 20 significant events of that decade. The entries do not have to be complete sentences, but they do have to start with the year and the city/country in parentheses -- and the entries have to be *significant*, and have to come from a range of things: political events/people; war; explorers/discoveries; sports; the arts; inventions; scientific or medical breakthroughs; church events/people of note; natural disasters; etc.

 

Decade (or Century) Reports

They pick a person or event (and again, throughout the year, these have to be from different categories so they're not all sports or war!) and research and write a paper -- depending on what the rest of our schedule is like, anywhere from 1-3 paragraphs, to 5 paragraphs, to 3-6 pages.

 

In the original idea, Brenda combined the 2 ideas and also had her student include relevant maps. Here's the link to that thread, in case you'd like to see how she did it: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24521

 

 

Does all of this work? Do they retain the information? Frankly, a lot of it boils down to the child. Older son remembers *everything* we cover with ease, and makes connections and references on his own and enjoys it. On the other hand, if it wasn't information of interest to younger son, he gives me a blank stare and says, "we read about this?" However -- I do find that all the discussion -- plus reinforcing with documentaries and constant "review" through other history resources, plus actually having to research/put together a paper -- *does* help this younger son with retention. No way he'd get anything out of just reading the textbook and trying to take a quiz/test on it.

 

 

What we do is very time-consuming, since so much of it is done all together, and not everyone has that luxury. Certainly TOG would save you some time, having already made the connections and thought of the discussion questions, and having pulled together resource lists. But you can certainly get a lot out of a textbook and some "on the fly" discussion, too! BEST of luck, whatever you decide Rhonda! Warmest regards, Lori D.

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We're going to do SWB's Ancient History as our spine because dd likes her writing style and hates history (but liked reading SOTW when she was younger.) She's going to major in science, and history is something she feels forced to do. I think it will work well, and I'll tailor it to each of my dc depending on their focus of interest in high school.

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Hi Rhonda,

 

I bought a $12 Human Odyssey from amazon used books about 3 years back. No teacher manual; we just read it aloud together and discuss, discuss, discuss all along the way to help the information "stick" and to make connections (e.g.: "what happened last time we read that led up to this?"; '"what do you think will be the consequence of this?" "that sounds like the same thing that happened __ years earlier -- what does it remind you of?" "who was instrumental in setting this scene earlier?")

 

I also constantly point to a map to show where countries are, how close/far apart events were taking, etc., etc. (e.g.: mountain ranges, seas, and wide rivers really do make effective boundaries in earlier history!)

 

We read other history resources. For example, this year we're doing 20th century, so we're reading about 400 pages in the Spielvogel, plus SOTW4 for a simplier, more story-like version for the connections, plus we "review" at the end of a decade by dipping into parts of Our Century in Pictures for Young People, and The Visual History of the Modern World -- which also gives us a much more "visual" approach to the history.

 

Okay! This sounds familiar, though I'm probably more anal about it - LOL! But, seriously, this year we're doing SOTW-4 with maps, KIHW, discussions guided by the SOTW-AG, and we're dipping into the Golden History of the World books and a pictorial guide to the 20th century, too. Unfortunately, I have gotten away from doing it all together (other than a brief discussion).

 

But, I think what I'm taking away from this is that I don't really *have* to change what we are doing that much. We'll just be using "older" materials. And, that's encouraging!

 

I also have the boys solo read historical fiction (a lot checked out from the library, or bought used -- and selecting a lot of Sonlight book suggestions means we can more easily resell) to have a better sense of the times, the culture, and the impact of historical events on people.

 

I agree that the historical fiction really does make history "come alive". I use those as our read alouds now, and will probably keep that up!

 

We watch documentaries (the library or Netflix) which do a *great* job of making connections and telling the story of history visually. We watch historical feature films (the library or Netflix), which give us a feel for the clothing, the culture, the mindsets of the times in which they are set. I figure between pictures, movies, and discussion -- *something* has to stick! :tongue_smilie:

 

Sounds great! And, in case anyone wants to know, you can read about Lori's movie selection here:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=619889#poststop

 

And then we do some of the Great Books (some in that history time frame, some not) along with lit. guides, which also sometimes prompts references to the history.

 

Did you plan your lit books to coincide (sp???) with the history? For example, did you plan for them to read the Egypt historical fiction while you were studying Egypt?

 

Or, did you just do the history as it came, as you worked on reading the books in order? (Kind of like what we've been doing in logic stage - we work through SOTW, and we work through lit, a little of both every day; and sometimes our lit is way behind the history and sometimes it's a little ahead.)

 

 

 

re: your worries about retention

 

I'm not a big test-giver, but I do (sometimes) have them write out the answers to the "in the chapter" section review questions in Human Odyssey for quizzes, and write out answers to the "end of the chapter" review questions as tests. I allow most of it to be "open book" so they can practice looking up things in a textbook -- and get a sneaky solo review having to skim the text looking for a specific answer. :D

 

The other thing we're doing is an idea I'm borrowing from Brenda in MA:

 

20 Time Line Entries per Decade (or Century)

I made a form for each boy to fill out in which they have to jot down 20 significant events of that decade. The entries do not have to be complete sentences, but they do have to start with the year and the city/country in parentheses -- and the entries have to be *significant*, and have to come from a range of things: political events/people; war; explorers/discoveries; sports; the arts; inventions; scientific or medical breakthroughs; church events/people of note; natural disasters; etc.

 

Decade (or Century) Reports

They pick a person or event (and again, throughout the year, these have to be from different categories so they're not all sports or war!) and research and write a paper -- depending on what the rest of our schedule is like, anywhere from 1-3 paragraphs, to 5 paragraphs, to 3-6 pages.

 

In the original idea, Brenda combined the 2 ideas and also had her student include relevant maps. Here's the link to that thread, in case you'd like to see how she did it: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24521

 

Actually, it is not so much "retention" I am worried about as it is not letting my extremely phlegmatic son always get by with a minimum of effort while I am pulled in 4 other directions. It will help me with my doubts about myself as a teacher, I think, to have *something* - even if it *is* busywork - to have him check off as done.

 

Having concrete ideas like this will help. (Researching all those syllabus threads might help, too, huh?)

 

Does all of this work? Do they retain the information? Frankly, a lot of it boils down to the child. Older son remembers *everything* we cover with ease, and makes connections and references on his own and enjoys it. On the other hand, if it wasn't information of interest to younger son, he gives me a blank stare and says, "we read about this?" However -- I do find that all the discussion -- plus reinforcing with documentaries and constant "review" through other history resources, plus actually having to research/put together a paper -- *does* help this younger son with retention. No way he'd get anything out of just reading the textbook and trying to take a quiz/test on it.

 

Our boys sound so much alike!!! I know that stare, and I do pity my younger son. So much of my effort goes to the older one!

 

 

What we do is very time-consuming, since so much of it is done all together, and not everyone has that luxury.

 

Yes, unfortunately I am continuing to find that in spite of all my prayers and curriculum decisions otherwise, that if I'm not heavily involved, learning just doesn't happen in this house!

 

Certainly TOG would save you some time, having already made the connections and thought of the discussion questions, and having pulled together resource lists. But you can certainly get a lot out of a textbook and some "on the fly" discussion, too! BEST of luck, whatever you decide Rhonda! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

Thanks, Lori! You have really encouraged me.

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I thought about just pm'ing you and begging for your plans for next year!!!

 

Could you please tell me more about the TM for Human Odyssey (I have the student text here... and Western Civ... and Western Civ: a Brief History for high school!!!)

 

Is the TM basically just the answers to the (many) questions found in the text and the Review sections. Or, does it help you with discussions, have suggestions for further study or projects, etc.?

 

I have SWB's book here, too. (blush!) How are you thinking of using it? Will you try to have ds read the whole book? I would be tempted to plan on just using it when ds "wants to go deeper in a subject", but frankly I'm afraid that day may never come!

 

Thanks, Beth!

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Did you plan your lit books to coincide (sp???) with the history? For example, did you plan for them to read the Egypt historical fiction while you were studying Egypt?

 

Or, did you just do the history as it came, as you worked on reading the books in order? (Kind of like what we've been doing in logic stage - we work through SOTW, and we work through lit, a little of both every day; and sometimes our lit is way behind the history and sometimes it's a little ahead.)

 

 

 

Well, yes and no. LOL.

 

 

History/Literature/Great Books last year:

I made all the decisions about what to use, figuring we'd start high school by starting the history cycle over again.

 

- Great Books = world ancients

I picked the works that seemed most accessible to us, and that I could find guides to go along. (6 classic ancient works aloud/discussed together, most with lit. guides, most with some writing about it)

1. Epic of Gilgamesh (abridged version by Westwood)

2. Iliad (Fagles)

3. Odyssey (Fagles)

4. Oedipus Rex (Fitzgerald)

5. Antigone (Fitzgerald)

6. Aeneid (abridged version by Church)

7. Till We Have Faces

 

- History = ancients

Spielvogel, plus various other resources (most done together; some solo)

 

- Historical Fiction = most from SL6 (read solo by the boys)

I gave them a list with some choices on it, loosely coordinating with the historical time frames of the ancients that we covered:

1. Golden Goblet -- or -- Shadow Hawk

2. God King or Hittite Warrior

3. Archimedes and the Door to Science

4. various Greek myths

5. Ides of April -- or -- Bronze Bow

6. Eagle of the Ninth

 

 

- Literature = Literary Lessons from the Lord of the Rings

(which, being an epic written by a man educated in the ancient classics and teaching the medieval classics, felt like it fit right in) (done all together)

 

 

History/Literature/Great Books this year:

 

- Great Books = mix

How did I arrive at this mix? Well, the boys desperately wanted to do Beowulf from exposure previous year in LLftLotR; I wanted us to do at least one Shakespeare play; I wanted to mix in some of IEW's Windows on the World annotating/literary analysis program throughout the next 3 years, and since we were doing 20th century, I figured we'd better do a few modern works. I narrowed it down to this:

1. Beowulf

2. Macbeth

3. "The Most Dangerous Game" - short story; IEW Windows on the World (done together)

4. All Quiet on the Western Front

5. Diary of Anne Frank

6. To Kill a Mockingbird

(if we have time: Shakespeare's Much Ado About Nothing)

 

- History = 20th Century - Spielvogel, plus various other resources (most done together; some solo)

I let the boys pick what time frame, figuring I'd get more buy-in; I gave them the choice of: world Medieval; US History; or world 20th century.

 

- Historical Fiction = most from SL6 (read solo by the boys)

It loosely matches up with the history decades we're studying; I found books set in various decades and let them choose; many are SL books. I'll do a similar thing next year doing US History, so I skipped some decades to focus on the world, and save some decades next year for US focus.

- 1900-1910 = The Great Brain -- or -- Little Britches

- WW1 = The Road From Home

- 1910-1920 = Albert Einstein -- or -- The Endurance

- 1920-1930 = Cheaper by the Dozen

- WW2 = Winged Watchman -- or -- Escape From Warsaw -- or The Endless Steppe

- 1940-1950 = selected short antecdotes from Amazing True Stories

- 1960-1970 = Tramp for the Lord -- or -- God's Smuggler -- or -- I Am David

- present = The Cay -- or -- View From Saturday -- or -- The Pushcart War

 

- Literature for 9th grader = Lightning Lit. 8

 

- Literature for 10th grader = made our own: Worldviews in Sci-Fi & Gothic

(mostly done together) He'd already done LL8; I didn't really see a LL that matched up with 20th century that we wanted to do; and I *really* didn't want to do all the depressing 20th century works. DS enjoys sci-fi, and he's really interested in worldview right now, and sci-fi is a fairly "modern" genre, so it all gelled together nicely to give us the following list:

1. Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde (Christian); Progeny Press guide

2. Frankenstein (romanticism; gothic) Progeny Press guide

3. The Time Machine (socialism; evolution) guide found online

4. Animal Farm (communism) Sparknotes guide

5. The Giver (utopia/distopia) Garlic Press guide

6. Brave New World (utopia/distopia) Progeny Press guide

7. Farenheit 451 (utopia/distopia; apocalyptic) Progeny Press guide

8. A Canticle for Leibowitz (apocalyptic; self-destructive cycle of the state; role of the church) no guide

9. short stories from CosmiComics (evolution; humanism; existentialism) no guide

10 Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy (evolution; absurdism) no guide

 

 

This spring I'll start the process of pulling together our US history/lit/Great Books by (of course, covered in prayer, and discussing with DH and DSs):

- combing this board for past threads

- posting questions

- researching history book options

- going through the Sonlight, Ambleside Online, Well Trained Mind and other lists for Great Book ideas and historical fiction ideas

- include works the boys want to do

- do another 1-2 Shakespeare plays

- do another 1-2 units of the Windows on the World

 

That will probably take me a month or so later this spring. And that's how I do it. :001_smile: Hope that helps! Warmly, Lori D.

Edited by Lori D.
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Is the TM basically just the answers to the (many) questions found in the text and the Review sections. Or, does it help you with discussions, have suggestions for further study or projects, etc.?

Yes to all the above -- and a fair amount of Geography.

 

I have SWB's book here, too. (blush!) How are you thinking of using it?

 

We'll use it sporadically. I wish ds was a faster reader and could read it all as well as the ancient chapters in HO.

Thanks, Beth!

You're welcome! Others here will have more info than me. Mine is collecting dust until this Fall. Others have used it already and could explain from first-hand experience.

.

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Lori,

I enjoyed reading through your syllabus!

 

I used Smarr literature courses for 9th and 10th grades. That took care of literature, grammar and composition. Then I used Spielvogel Western Civ, A Short History of Western Civ, Notgrass World History, Notgrass American History and just sort of made all of the pieces fit as we went along. In 11th grade we did not use Smarr, but we did use their lit list as a guide.

 

We did end up condensing the last two years of world/American history into a long, long one year course to free her up for dual credit classes in 12th grade.

 

Sometimes I wrote up tests. Sometimes I quizzed her orally. Sometimes I relied on her papers to give me a glimpse inside her head. With the exception of the Notgrass books, which were chosen to use as a summary before hitting the tougher books, we had no teacher manuals. I won't deny that it has been a challenging way to homeschool!!! I anticipate doing it mostly the same way with my next high schooler.

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... hearing your US History year, as your method is very similar to what we've been doing and which has (so far!) worked pretty well here. I esp. found the occasional test, paper to see in her head helpful, as that's what we've done, but I sometimes worry I should have more "required" kinds of things to get them more prepared for test taking, text reading, paper writing for college...

 

I'll be posting again in about 2 months asking for specific US resources, and hope you'll pipe up with specifics of what your US history year looked like at that time! :D

 

Warmest regards, Lori D.

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I had forgotten you were using LLfLoTR. I guess I always imagine you guys bundled up with hot chocolate and blankets and doing that one "just for fun"! =)

 

Thanks, Lori. I'm really intrigued by the idea of considering "Lit" as a separate entity from Great Books/History at least during Ancients and Middle Ages. I'll be chewing on this awhile...

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I had forgotten you were using LLfLoTR. I guess I always imagine you guys bundled up with hot chocolate and blankets and doing that one "just for fun"! =)

 

Well, actually, that pretty much IS the way we did LLftLotR! :001_smile: We didn't do the fill in the blank worksheets, nor the writing assignments, and we read the books at night as fun family reading time. And, yes, as I recall, blankets and hot chocolate were involved at times... (LOL)

 

 

 

I'm really intrigued by the idea of considering "Lit" as a separate entity from Great Books/History at least during Ancients and Middle Ages. I'll be chewing on this awhile...

 

 

Okay, true confession time: that separation is more for counting credits for transcripts; there really is a lot of interwovenness between the way we do the Great Books and the Lit. and the History. Really, it all boils down to this is my sly way of indulging MY love of literature! (And film, because we watch and analyze a lot of films, too.) The boys aren't that into sports, and when I give them about 50 options to choose from for an elective and even say "what ARE you interested in -- we'll make an elective out of it", and both respond with: "ho hum... I dunno...", then I say, "Okay, then *I* get to make the decision, and I decide your elective is Great Books". Which conveniently translates into a double dose of literature for me. BWA HA HA HA! [insert maniacal laughing here]

 

Warmest regards, Lori

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This is the main reason we do CLEP's. I love doing history as it is outlined in WTM, but I sleep better having a piece of paper with a score on it that tells me we have no big huge gaping holes. When I think about it, it's silly feeling that way, but that's how it is. I figure the CLEPs back up the courses and scores I put on the transcripts.

 

The boys like doing CLEP's because it gives them a tangible goal with a definite reward (college credits). Somehow, doing it "cuz Mom said so" or "cuz it's good for you" isn't very motivating for a teenage boy. :tongue_smilie: And, they like knowing they won't have to spend time on certain basic subjects in college. My science buffs are happy to be heading to college knowing they won't have to take history and my history buff is happy to be heading there knowing he won't have to mess with science.

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Do you use CLEP Study Guides to, well..."guide" your choices of what to study and when? Something like a spine?

 

I had never heard of CLEP before getting on this board (maybe they don't do them in Georgia?). I'll have to google...(tomorrow!)

 

No, we don't use the guides to guide our choices of what to study and when. After we have finished studying a time period or a subject, they take the practice test in the guide and have always found they're ready or nearly ready for the test. Then they use the guide if they need to brush up on a few things. We generally follow WTM and use the guides as a safety net. They would make terrible spines, IMHO.

 

I'm sure Georgia has CLEPs. They are administered by the College Board (same organization that gives the SAT). Every college we have been interested in accepts them as college credit, but I know there are some out there that don't. I took them way back when I was in college in VA. You can find out where in GA you can take them at www.collegeboard.com

 

HTH!

Edited by Luann in ID
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