Will the progymnasmata really be enough?

[Alana in Canada]

As I read non-fiction constantly--I left the traditional five paragraph essay long, long ago.

 

So, I do know that a good writer, no, an excellent writer can be born from following the progymnasmata. I know it in my bones.

 

But can it also produce a "good enough" writer--you know, one College Professors will fall in love with?

 

The latest crises in confidence has come from looking at the curriculum guide for Logos elementary school. According to them, the third grader should be writing four point paragraphs, using descriptive writing, using quotation marks and commas properly. We're good for all of it except the four point paragraph.

 

My fifth grader should be writing 3 paragraph essays. Three paragraph essays? Three paragraph essays?

 

I have decided to put the kids and I through the challenges of Classical Writing--but I am constantly nagged by the rudimentary requirements of the "basic essay."

 

Help.

[Cornerstone Classical]

Funny you should say that, we're going to be doing BJU English 3 next year and I was going to skip the writing portion, which is every other chapter, and do CW. After looking at the BJU writing portion, I thought my ds should do it as well, because there are some very useful writing assignments in BJU, like how to write friendly letters, writing those paragraph you spoke of, and book reports,etc.

 

Now I'm wondering if doing both BJU and CW would be doable, because the BJU looks so fun!

[Alana in Canada]

CC--Might you do both, perhaps? Use BJU as back-up? Or would that be too burdensome?

 

I do have back up for CW: we do use Rod and Staff. Currently, my son is in R&S4, and today he was supposed to write a paragraph on how to do something.

 

It was horrible.

 

I really feel I should probably do both right now: though our plates are too full already. I don't know. I'm just drowning in doubt.

[Lovedtodeath]

:lurk5:

[angela in ohio]

A three-paragraph essay is just three one-paragraph essays on the same topic. With only three paragraphs, you aren't dealing with an introduction and conclusion. Just have your fifth grader write three different paragraphs and put them together, and it is not as daunting.

 

We have chosen not to do progym only, so I can't talk about faith in that. We are also using IEW, which covers every type of academic writing dc will need.

[Hannah]

I agonise about this as well. The learning outcome for Writing for Grade 4 in our national curriculum says:

 

The learner will be able to write different kinds of factual and imaginative texts for a wide range of purposes.

 

Assessment standards

 

We know this when the learner:

• Writes different kinds of texts for different purposes and audiences:

o writes for personal, exploratory, playful, imaginative and creative purpose (e.g. letters, descriptive paragraphs, limericks);

o writes informational texts expressing ideas clearly for different audiences (e.g. short reports , instructions);

o writes and designs various media texts for different audiences (e.g. poster, cartoon strip, simple brochures);

o converts information from one form into another (e.g. written text into tables).

 

• Develops and organises ideas through a writing process:

o chooses and explores topic and brainstorms ideas using mind maps, flow charts and lists;

o organises ideas into paragraphs using simple and compound sentences;

o produces a first draft with appropriate language and conventions for the specific purpose and audience;

o revises work using own awareness of appropriate language, organisation and style, and feedback from classmates and/or teacher;

o proofreads final draft for grammar, punctuation, and spelling, incorporating feedback from classmates and teacher;

o ‘publishes’ final draft by sharing with relevant audience and/or teacher.

 

• Presents work using neat and legible handwriting and proper form, such as headings, spacing for paragraphs, indentations, etc., as appropriate.

 

• Applies knowledge of language at various levels:

o word level:

 selects and uses a wide variety of words drawn from language experience, activities, literature, and oral language of classmates and others;

o sentence level:

 extends sentences by adding adjectives, adverbs, qualifying phrases and clauses,

 shifts from one tense to another consistently and appropriately;

o paragraph level:

 uses topic and supporting sentences to develop a coherent paragraph,

 uses appropriate grammar, spelling and punctuation.

 

It's pretty daunting and I don't know that we're going to achieve this with the progymnasmata program that we're using.

[Beth in SW WA]

 

I have decided to put the kids and I through the challenges of Classical Writing--but I am constantly nagged by the rudimentary requirements of the "basic essay."

 

Help.

 

Have you seen JackieinAR's blog? Her son has writing samples of essays posted. Scroll down and read them.

 

CW Maxim introduces the essay (meant for 7th-9th grade'ish).

 

SAT prep will include lots of essay writing. A necessary evil. Your dc will have lots of time to fine-tune the dreaded essay.

 

I decided that learning to think is prerequisite to learning to write. CW teaches students to think -- skill by skill.

[Beth in SW WA]

It's pretty daunting and I don't know that we're going to achieve this with the progymnasmata program that we're using.

 

What are you using?

[Kimber]

I have used CW up through Homer A and I own Diogenes. I have my daughter doing outlining and rewriting, sort of like IEW. I'm thinking of adding in Writing Strands 4 for her as well.

 

Classical Writing is good, but in my opinion it has gaps. They all have gaps, although I bet when SWB gets hers done, there won't be many.

 

7th grade is too late to be focusing on how to write an original paragraph. It's so easy to do and easy to teach, I don't understand why it isn't covered in Homer (maybe it is in B and I missed it?). Anyway, I won't have my daughter doing 3 paragraph essays in 5th grade, but she will next year in 6th.

 

I think Writing Strands looks good because it is more complete. It covers the intermediate steps that students have to go through to get their ideas on paper. I have seen The Lively Art of Writing recommended on the High School board several times, and it is a fantastic book. Well, Writing Strands actually teaches many of the elements that are in The Lively Art of Writing. I've never looked at WS levels 2 and 3, so I don't know about them.

 

BTW, I'm not recommending WS. I'm just saying CW doesn't cover it all. In fact, when I used CW with my daughter, I actually taught her how to organize her stories via IEW and my own personal preference, because it wasn't explicitly taught in CW. CW is good at what it does, but it does not, IMO, have an intermediate step at the appropriate time of teaching children to write original paragraphs.

 

Maybe, I'm wrong and I just missed something, but I remember looking and looking for the section in the book that covered how to actually write as opposed to what to write.

 

I think if you use CW, your child will get there eventually in all those areas mentioned in those national standards, but I think, as the teacher, the parent will be adding some of that instruction to the curriculum or students will pick up those skills from their other classes. I'd personally rather use a curriculum right now that teaches those skills. It's just hard to find one.

[Beth in SW WA]

Great post, Kimber. Thanks!

[Hannah]

What are you using?

 

We're using Writing Tales.

[Beth in SW WA]

We're using Writing Tales.

 

I can see how looking at that national 4th grade writing list is a a bit scary when WT has you rewriting fables. You are planning early and are setting some great groundwork. I wish I had WT when my older kids were younger. My little girls will do WT & CW when the time comes.

 

Perhaps you could stick w/ the progym but add some IEW structure & style. Just a thought. :)

 

Jackie in AR has only used CW with her kids and they write beautiful paragraphs and essays.

 

Trust me, I understand your angst.

[Cindy in NY]

I heard SWB speak at our convention last summer on the topic of teaching writing. I don't have my notes in front of me but what I took away from it was not to worry about producing essays in the early years. That teaching writing is more a baby-step process and all the emphasis on quantity in the early grades doesn't produce better writing later on when it really counts.

 

I remember people asking her, "Johnny's friends at public school are writing this or that, shouldn't Johnny be doing the same?" Her response was not to worry about what they were doing and to trust the process of teaching writing in small steps.

 

I hope I am representing her views correctly, like I said, it is what I came away from the workshop with. I personally use CW and feel it does a fabulous job of the incremental instruction of writing. I have no plans to send my children to a traditional school so I am not worried about the age they can produce this or that kind of paper. I am content to work toward the end result of producing a good (hopefully great) writer in the end.

[Kimber]

I think WT does a little better job of explaining the format of the written story than Aesop B does. Since WT2 covers fiction writing, the paragraphing she does is really good and thorough.

 

But some of those skills are referring to report type writing. And I think it's definitely age appropriate to begin that type of writing prior to the 7th or 8th grade. But you don't necessarily need a curriculum to do it. Just having logic stage students writing across the curriculum in science or history would cover those skills, I think. I'm sort of thinking out loud. I hope this helps.

 

Kimberly

[Kimber]

For me, I think CW doesn't do a great job of laying out for parents how those incremental steps are leading up to those end skills. I guess I'm either not trust worthy enough or too simple minded and I need the plan laid out for me so that I can see each of the skills that my children will have.

 

I have purchased about 5 writing curriculum this year--mostly used, I'm no rich fool--and most of them are written so that you can see clearly what skills your child will come away with. I got lost in CW, and I couldn't see any of that clearly. I guess I'm just too much of a control freak and I didn't want to give that control over to the CW people.

 

We may go back to Diogenes in 7th grade the 5 paragraph essay, or we may do Jensen's or IEW or something else.

 

And I'm not forcing my students to do essays in 3rd or 4th grade. But I don't see the difference between writing a 1 page paper for a CW Aesop or Homer assignment and a 3 paragraph descriptive paper on the metamorphosis of a caterpillar to a butterfly. I think a 6th grader should be able to do both.

 

I don't mean to be contrary, CW is a good program. You won't go wrong using it. For me, I have just decided it is not the one complete program that will help my child become a good writer. I don't think there is such a program. So as far as CW goes, it's as good as public school or any other program.

[Hannah]

Perhaps you could stick w/ the progym but add some IEW structure & style. Just a thought. :) .

 

Would I need to get the full DVD course, or would just the seminar workbook suffice?

I can get Writing Strands locally and have considered it too.

 

Trust me' date=' I understand your angst.[/quote']

I appreciate that!

[Cindy in NY]

I certainly don't think CW is the only or even the best program out there, only that it works for us the best. CW fits my teaching style and I find that is the best indicator for success in our homeschool. I like the hand holding it gives me and I love the fact that it folds so many aspects of language arts into one package.

 

I don't have a lot of experience with other writing programs, only a few that I didn't like, but I am sure there are many that would get the job done.

 

Aesop B does start writing across the curriculum, doing a paper in science or history each week in addition to the assigned model for the week. Aesop B is typically done in 4th grade so that is covered. I just dislike the notion that just because it is 4th grade it is the year to write this type of essay or that type of report. I realize that isn't what you were saying, but for the OP who is concerned about that state standards.

[Beth in SW WA]

Would I need to get the full DVD course, or would just the seminar workbook suffice?

I can get Writing Strands locally and have considered it too.

 

 

I appreciate that!

 

I love Andrew Pudewa. He is so engaging to watch. I watched the TWSS twice. Dc watched them once. Could you borrow a set?

 

The section on dress-ups is my favorite because dd had such writing phobia. It helped her to have a checklist.

 

IEW & CW go very well together.

 

CW suggests varying your sentence types. Don't do subject-verb every time. IEW suggests the dress-up sentence openers, vss, etc.

 

Similar ideas w/ different terminology.

 

IEW has great things to offer but I would not want years of IEW exclusively. As I said before, CW teaches students to think -- and build skill upon skill.

 

Can someone else chime in on the IEW/CW tie-in?

[frogpond1]

Part of it is having students learn to follow the simple organization of a 5 paragraph essay or the like. I'm using http://www.amazon.com/Four-Square-Writing-Method-4-6/dp/B000F8XA8Q/ref=pd_bbs_sr_9?ie=UTF8&s=office-products&qid=1232820314&sr=8-9 to make my kids and students grades 4-5 walk though a quick way to write a modern essay. We've used it a couple times this year and the plan is to make them able to sit down and bop out a 5 paragraph essay from a simple essay prompt, just in case they should ever need to do so. I've had friends have to put their children into public school for health reasons, friends apply to private school for other reasons, and it is standard for a child to have to write an essay. I know the essays sound dull and aren't beautiful, but I just look at them as an exercise. DH is using the Lost Tools of Writing with the Middle School kids and that covers persuasive essays in a much better way, but it really works well with the 6-8th grade brain too, so I don't mind just doing a few 4 square essays with the youngers and then having a blast with the Progymn.

[Kimber]

Hi Hannah,

 

I feel as if I've been too opinionated. It's just that I'm actually researching writing programs for our co-op for middle school. I've spent the last few weeks comparing programs and I'm sort of stuck in that mode. I hope to have a sequence for our directors by Monday. So I'm in an opinionated state of mind right now on this very topic. :tongue_smilie:

 

I tried to recommend CW and WT to our directors. Parents looked them over and were immediately intimidated by CW. WT was a hit. I hope they decide on it.

 

But from the many hours that I've spent looking at this very thing, here are some ideas I hope you find useful.

 

If you want to add in more report type writing, you have many choices--

 

 

Jensen's Fortmat writing, unit I only, covers different types of paragraphs, and they give examples of what those paragraphs should look like as well as sample topics to write about. I picked this up used years ago.

 

You could purchase The Lively Art of Writing for about 6.00 to 10.00 that lays out really well how to write paragraphs and transition between them and how these paragraphs build up to the 5 paragraph essay. Then you could pass this info on to your student and use the appropriate level material across the curriculum. I am going to recommend that 8th graders read this book as assigned reading for our co-op.

 

You could follow SWB's example and simply have your student outlining across the curriculum as a pre-cursor to report writing. Then occasionally have him or her rewrite the material from the outline. This is the jest of IEW and also how Benjamin Franklin taught himself to write.

 

You could look at the Wordsmith review that SWB has posted on her site. She lists three alternative middle school writing plans that are combinations of IEW, Wordsmith, and Writing Strands. Writing Strands, imo, is more of a complete program and it teaches to the students directly. IEW, uses all of those dress-ups which I teach to my co-op class, but I don't like them. I do love the structure. I bought TWSS myself and then purchased another program used for about 25.00.

 

At our co-op my daughter's language arts class was using Total Language Plus and I thought there would be writing assignments in that. But there weren't. So they've incorporated some IEW writing in her class. I don't think it's enough, though. So I went through her zoology book and picked an outlining assignment from each lesson for her to outline and maybe rewrite. And I'm picking material from MFW Geography for her to outline as well. Turns out, lucky for me, she loves outlining.

 

I'm thinking of adding Writing Strands because I like the way it teaches to the student and the material that level 5 covers. But we're not ready for level 5, so she has to start with level 4. I'll skip us through it and cover what I think is necessary until we get to level 5.

 

I feel like we lost a lot of time because I kept waiting for her TLP class to present a writing assignment. It didn't happen and now the fall semester is gone. We've still done narrations, dictation, and copywork, but that is not enough for a middle school student.

 

So, anyway, sorry if I've been to "know it all" on this topic. I'm just stressed out about this very topic and seeing those national standards you posted didn't help my state of mind. I'm going to pass those national standards along to our co-op directors; that should get them in a panic.

 

Hope this helps.

[Kimber]

I think you're right Beth. I've used both and I really like them together. TWSS does such a good job of teaching parents how to teach writing. That was such an eye opener for me, much more so than the material itself.

 

Andrew Pudewa does an excellent job of meeting children where they are and giving the skills and resources they need to move ahead with their writing. I think that is why some people don't like it. For some parents, they're already there. For me, I needed a lesson on how to teach writing. It's been invaluable.

 

CW presents parents with the idea of where the student should be. Some parents know how to get there. (That's those intermediate skills I was referring to earlier.) It's not, imho, clear on how to get there. But the combination of the is really good. And when I did use CW with my daughter, I combined the two. I think it was effective. But now she's almost 11 in 5th grade and I don't want to burden her with Diogenes without giving her skills and confidence to write from within herself rather than from a rewrite. So we're doing the outlining thing to help with that.

 

Kimberly

[Kimber]

Gotcha, that makes sense.

 

Kimberly

[Hannah]

So, anyway, sorry if I've been to "know it all" on this topic.

...

 

Hope this helps.

 

You've not been a know-it-all at all, you've been extremely helpful - thank you very much!

 

Good luck with your presentation to the co-op directors!

[Haiku]

I read about people here using IEW, but when I go to their website, it's about as clear as mud. I can't find anything and it seems to me like all they are offering is videos of writing classes. There has to be more to it than that, but I have found their website to be less than helpful.

 

Can someone explain in clear terms what it is that IEW offers?

 

TIA!

 

Tara

[Hannah]

Can someone explain in clear terms what it is that IEW offers?

 

Tara,

 

I'm hoping that someone else answers your question, but in the meantime, I've been searching and this thread might be helpful.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

 

In the WP LA 5

 

 

 

 

 

Paragraph Writing Made Easy | LA5-04 | $12

Students will learn writing skills like planning, word choice, organization, paragraphs, and short essays.

 

 

 

 

What do you think??

 

 

Edited January 24, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Kimber]

I actually purchased this at Currclick for my daughter because we of the TLP stuff at coop. Anyway, I really like it. I'm not using it as written. What I like is that it teaches outlining in its entirety. I'm a big picture person, meaning I don't do well with incremental steps. I guess this is my major beef with CW--too many steps.

 

This little book helped me to see that it's okay to jump into outlining and teach it all at once. I understand the benefit of summarizing paragraphs by their main ideas. But, I know that for me, I can't see the main ideas unless I see what details are covered. Having the whole picture helps.

 

This look book teaches key words, traditional outlining, and it even has suggested answers in the back. Most of the paragraphs that the students are outlining are report writing type paragraphs. Overall, it's very much like IEW in how it teaches structure. But it only addresses 1 paragrap at a time, different types, and no dress-ups and sentence openers. I'm using it now. I think it's perfect for 5th grade.

 

How convoluted was this response? :D

 

Kimberly

[yvonne]

This thread is so timely for me. Let me throw Shurley into the mix! :)

 

I've been struggling with the same writing issue. My boys are 8 and we're using R&S 3. I am totally confident with R&S as a grammar program, but I wanted to get more writing in.

 

I bought WWE. We like WWE, and we do dictations and narrations, but I still worried that we weren't doing enough "real" writing.

 

I bought CW & IEW. IEW has been a godsend as far as doing more "real" writing. We've been writing IEW-style paragraphs as part of our science. Two birds with one stone--"real" writing and subject area content.

 

But we still weren't doing writing that was anywhere near the quality of what my 3rd grade nephew was doing in his private Core Knowledge school using Shurley. I bought Shurley English 3 (used, fortunately.) There it was...... spelled out, _scripted out_, how to teach a 3rd grader to write a three point paragraph, a three point essay, a 4 point essay, a descriptive essay, and more! In 3rd grade!

 

Shurley makes it look so easy, I wonder why IEW and WWE don't teach these paragraph and essay formats at this level?? Is it that IEW and WWE don't explicitly teach these things at this level because it's such basic information that it's assumed that I should already know it and teach it in the course of teaching the IEW or the WWE material? Or, maybe a three point paragraph, essay, etc. just naturally grow out of IEW or WWE at some point and it's a waste of time/effort to teach it now?

 

Bottom line, I, too, continue to struggle with the question of how much writing is enough at the third grade level? Is the progym (a la CW) or any other single writing program, as taught by someone who hasn't had the experience of successfully teaching writing before, enough to ensure success by the end?

 

yvonne

[Lovedtodeath]

I actually purchased this at Currclick for my daughter because we of the TLP stuff at coop.

How convoluted was this response? :D

 

Kimberly

 

Thanks! I was planning on doing WT 1 (and maybe a theme from IEW) and then using this for 5th. I am glad to have a review. Whew! It wasn't a bad plan. :tongue_smilie:

[Alana in Canada]

Shurley makes it look so easy, I wonder why IEW and WWE don't teach these paragraph and essay formats at this level?? Is it that IEW and WWE don't explicitly teach these things at this level because it's such basic information that it's assumed that I should already know it and teach it in the course of teaching the IEW or the WWE material? Or, maybe a three point paragraph, essay, etc. just naturally grow out of IEW or WWE at some point and it's a waste of time/effort to teach it now?

 

This is an excellent question! Are we somehow just supposed to know?

 

And Kimber--I think you have diagnosed my problem with CW! I am a whole picture first person, too. Tell me what I'm doing and where I'm going first--then I can settle down and listen to the instructions and follow the steps. But if I have to follow steps "blindly" to figure out where I'm going--well, I balk.

 

I bought the TWSS "Syllabus & Seminar Workbook." We only have one local home school supplier here in the city (and only one distributer of IEW materials in Canada) and she just started carrying it--so I've actually had a chance to physically see everything now! I think it is excellent--though, now, of course, I'm thinking I'll need the workshop to get going. AND I'm thinking of using it to follow the "Essay Writing" stream--I, II, IV, V! and VIII--and then use CW for narritive writing. Maybe. I'd be interested in hearing more about combining the two programs. Perhaps I'll start another thread.

 

I forget who asked what it is about but there are two "methods" with IEW, correct me somebody, if I'm wrong!

 

1) TWSS--a course/ workshop I mentioned above taught to the teacher so she/he can turn around and use any content at all and teach the children how to write with it and from it. This is absolutely fabulous, in my opinion.

 

2) Is a "stand-alone" writing course with selected passages, a workbook, etc. for the student. This, too, comes with videos--but these are meant for the student to watch and to learn from while Mom attends to important things like matching socks and making dinner (or teaching someone else! :)) This looks wonderful too.

 

As far as I can tell, the content is the same. The student learns the same things, progresses through the same units on structure and learns and practices the same stylistic "techniques" and gizmos.

 

Excellent discussion--thank you all so much. I appreciate all your thoughts and responses. I had no idea I had so much company!

[Kimber]

Is it that IEW and WWE don't explicitly teach these things at this level because it's such basic information that it's assumed that I should already know it and teach it in the course of teaching the IEW or the WWE material? Or, maybe a three point paragraph, essay, etc. just naturally grow out of IEW or WWE at some point and it's a waste of time/effort to teach it now?

 

I think that the 3 paragraph paper is a natural outcome of outlining. At least that is what I understand. IEW teaches paragraph writing via outlining. So when teaching outlining to my daughter, I'm teaching her how to organize her information into basic paragraph form.

 

I don't know if Shurley does that. Those two point paragraphs are a little different. They work, but they tend to have two threads of thought at the same time. I'd actually think that would be confusing, but I guess not if the student learns it that way from the beginning. I do like the look of those jingles, though. I might invest in those in the future. And also, I don't know enough about Shurley. I have to look into too. If Veritas Press uses it, it must be good.