Quiver0f10 Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I am planning for my Dd's high school years and planned a GB study. We are currently using TOG, but I was thinking of either Omnibus or following WTM guidelines. In preperation I checked out Confessions and Sir Gawain from my library so I could see a few of the books we would be using. Confessions looks way above my Dd's level and the Sir Gawain book about did me in.( I have the version by Tolkein). How do we go from reading the dialectic level books in TOG to tackling the great books? I'd love to simply stay with TOG but I don't know if I will have the $ to do so. Should I just chuck it all and go with textbooks? I really regret not taking my own education seriously when I was in high school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merry Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I'm using online classes for the literature. But if I couldn't get the online classes, I would have used a textbook and supplemented it with a few great books. There are great study guides for some ancient literature that are put out by the Memoria Press. Also, Hewitt has a study guide for the medieval literature. I think Beowulf and Sir Gawain are covered. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 You might try a shorter list of books. Maybe read aloud together through parts or get some of the books on tape. Plaid Dad recommends reading a summary or children's retelling before reading the Iliad. It helps to have all your characters in place. This would help with some of the other books as well. Look through the book lists in TWTM in both age groups. Do some from each list and take your time. I think you'll do better than you think you will! :) If you go the textbook route I'd still pick a few books from the Great Books to read in entirety. Study guides are also helpful. I'm sure someone has more specifics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 In preperation I checked out Confessions and Sir Gawain from my library so I could see a few of the books we would be using. Confessions looks way above my Dd's level and the Sir Gawain book about did me in. Cliff Notes will take you through it line by line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Augustine is tough going and Gawain is bit peculiar (in my opinion). May I suggest that you examine a few other things? One idea may be not to do all of the Confessions, but just a taste to sample this kind of work. How about Seamus Heaney's translation of Beowulf? Consider the Mabinogion. Maybe a study of the Koran? I would also look at Fierce Wars and Faithful Loves, the first book of the Faerie Queene that has been editted for high school students (published by Canon Press) with very helpful footnotes and additional material. Have you studied Ancients with this student? Jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 (edited) We gave up after a few pages of Confessions, too. Plato's Republic, on the other hand, is a whole lot easier to read. Not all the great books are difficult. I'm just picking the ones that we can manage and skipping the rest GRIN. I'm surprised at how well we've done with some of them. And others are either too dense for me to feel were worth our time wading through, or I don't have the background to do justice to, or something. I was able to read and understand Tolkein's Sir Gawain fairly comfortably. It sounds like you would need to raise your reading level to be able to read some of these? Maybe? You can do this by working on grammar and vocabulary. If your children have been doing grammar, perhaps they can detangle the more unusual sentence structures of poetry better than you can? In which case you don't need to raise your own. Before I gave up on doing great books, I think I'd check to see if your children can understand them better than you. I know mine are better educated than I am, at this point, even the 8th grader. As we read things, they have to explain allusions and the plot to me. Having been through TWTM grammar and logic lists they have the necessary background. I just handed them the books to read, mostly, rather than reading them myself, so I don't. For example, when we read Beowulf, my children kept me straight about the plot because they had read it before, and in the Greek literature, they had to explain about the various gods and subplots. It worked fine this way. Can you read Shakespeare? I'd try getting The Republic out of the library and if you can understand that and Shakespeare, I think you'd be fine. You just have to pick the easier books on the list. And then, as you go along, you'll get better at it. What happens when you read Sir Gawain now? Can you understand it better rereading it? I think the great books became great books because they could be read multiple times and every time a person reread them, they learned somehting new. That means you can't expect to fully understand them the first time round, or even the 10th, even if you are an extremely experienced, well educated person. We spend lots of time discussing what we think the author meant, or what we think is going on. I think doing it together with the children helps them learn how to read great books. I don't think it is a bad thing that I can't tell them the answer right away. It is my ignorance that makes them think. If I knew everything, I don't think we'd have much discussion. TWTM questions help lead you to understand the books. HTH -Nan, another badly educated person GRIN Edited January 17, 2009 by Nan in Mass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Great post, Nan. So true!! Jean, I understand your angst about the GB's. I'm going to "cheat" and use audio books where available, utilize Dr. V's TTC lectures, as well as study guides. You can do it! Give Sir Gawain another try. It is such a fabulous tale. Beowulf read by Seamus Heany is fantastic. It should be at your library. Just take it slow. Also remember Drew's advice: Slower/Deeper. That is my saving grace! Our kids need to be able to read these books. It might be tough going at times, but I'm sure they will thank you for it later. Keep us posted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karenciavo Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 As others have said, you could simply read fewer books, discuss, and move on. Cliff Notes will take you through it line by line. I agree, I let my ds15 read SparkNotes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 Thank you for the encouragement everyone! I knew we could skip books but I see these two on every list so I figured we should tackle them. I am going to look into audio books and am going to try to sift through Sir Gawain again as I admit I only gave it a brief look through. It's good to know that we can pick and choose and still have a sucessful GB study even if we don't read all of Susan's list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 As others have said, you could simply read fewer books, discuss, and move on. I agree, I let my ds15 read SparkNotes. So you allow them to use the guides as they read? That could really help my Dd and me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I am going to look into audio books and am going to try to sift through Sir Gawain again as I admit I only gave it a brief look through. Jean, I panicked when I first picked up Sir Gawain. I literally cried. I thought, "Who am I to teach this?" As I got a handle on the language and the symbolism I was sucked in and there was no turning back. I can honestly say that is one of my favorite books ever! This thread might help you. It sure helped me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karenciavo Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 (edited) So you allow them to use the guides as they read? That could really help my Dd and me. Yes I do. Somebody I respect in homeschooling circles suggested it, I think it was Andrew Kern. My son doesn't always refer to Sparknotes, but after he's read a chapter and he feels he wants to, I let him. P.S.: If the alternative to using Cliff or Sparknotes is to skip a book entirely why not use the aid. As long as she still reads the book, the notes are simply a tool to help pick the work apart and gain understanding. I think as she gains confidence and she sees a pattern to literary analysis she would lean on the notes less. Edited January 17, 2009 by Karenciavo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in AL Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I would highly suggest using sparknotes. I read the summary to the kids out loud for each chapter. It has helped them tremendously in comprehending the books. I tried Confessions too and couldn't do it. I loved Beowulf by Heany though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 Thanks again! I am feeling much better about our ability to do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 This thread might help you. It sure helped me. Thank you for the link and for sharing. It helps to know I am not alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicheleinMN Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Try the Sir Gawain and the Green Knight by Burton Raffel. Ds and I read it first and then used the Tolkien version with the High School Greenleaf Medieval Guide. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Based on the recommendation of my oldest ds's philosophy professor we are going to use City of God rather than Confessions. He and my ds developed a wonderful relationship during the class time and he knew of other students who had taken my WVWW class. I asked ds to get a list of recommendations from the professor so I could tweak my GB study and this was one of the recommendations. In addition, we aren't covering the complete work of City of God, rather selected books. I think we can totally overwhelm many kids with some of the reading lists put out by classical educators. But if we tweak it, cut it down, and study selected works, our kids can do well. And I fully support the use of SparkNotes or other helps. Why not make the material as accessible as possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Jumping in late with a couple more suggestions. Logos' Grammar of Poetry is an excellent intro to trope and meter. We have found that a basic understanding of these 2 literary elements gives us deeper understanding in reading some of the more difficult GB. Logos also has a Shakespeare study that we are doing this spring- same concept. I also wanted to suggest getting the narrative version of some of the readings rather than the originals. Behtleham books has a narrative of Beowulf that gave us a much greater understanding of the epic tale. Lambs' Tales of Shakespeare intros the stories without having to muddle through the Middle English. (I'm basically reiterating Rose's post of checking out children's lit first. SWB recommends this as well). I would also like to recommend reading aloud C.S. Lewis and Tolkien, Shakespeare, D'Aulaires Greek Myths for fun, as part of your read-aloud time. We have done this for years. Tolkien has a book of poetry that is lovely and gets the reader used to complex sentence structure. C.S. Lewis has so much in his writings. Try the Space Trilogy (we don't read all 3 to the littles- too graphic), Till We Have Faces-some of the fiction first and then go on to the non-fiction. By the non-fiction you are used to his style and your brain is more ready to handle the depth of his writing. And, I have, for years, allowed myself to muddle along with my kids. I'm no expert and certainly had a mediocre education in many regards. But I have admitted to my kids (and otheres when I've taught co-op classes) when I don't know and asked what they thought. It's amazing how much the kids know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen in CO Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Jean - I am certain SWB didn't intend for us to read ALL of the list. And if it helps any - by the time we were through the early Medieval period, I was happy if I never read another thing that rhymed. It seemed that everything on the list for that period rhymed. By the time were were through with Shakespeare and Milton I was way more gray, much more literate, and certain that we'd read no more poetry ever. We were relieved to get to Frankenstien - it was like a breathe of fresh air. ;) And we read all the hard stuff outloud and slowly. It helped us to understand it. A few books read slowly that you understand is much better than dropping the whole GB ideal. There is a great satisfaction in conquering a big, hard book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Elliot Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Jean, Everyone else has given great answers. I don't know where I'd be without Cliff's Notes. Just an additional thought: Have you looked at the Greenleaf Guides to Ancient Lit and Medieval Lit? At $14 for the download they are a bargain and a half. Cyndy does an excellent job of guiding the student step by step through each book, giving background information and questions to help dig out the important information. Her schedules are quite reasonable and nearly every work she includes (at least in the first two guides) is on the WTM lists. She is planning on two more guides to cover Reformation and Modern soon. The only thing I dislike about them is she doesn't include answers. I recently used her guide to get myself through Beowulf and was surprised by how much more I understood from using her questions to help me pay attention. Best wishes, Luann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 :iagree:with the Greenleaf guides. We did some of Ancient Lit again this summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 OK, so do less books, use guide such as cliff notes, greenleaf, TtC and audio books. I think we can do this! I really would like to study them together with my Dd because I never had this type of education and I will be one step ahead of the other kids coming up after her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CherylG Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 (edited) I signed our math/chess headed 14 year old up for a Classical Christian on-line writing course because I wanted him to know how to write. This online class is never getting out of our schedule-he gets a chance to discuss with peers from all over the world, what he thinks the author means via the microphone on the computer. What a blessing to NOT have to drive somewhere but to have that good discussion (Our family actually all took parts in Macbeth and read together) Get more than one book-it's easier to get comfy and keep the reading smoother-if you like to read in a chair and they are floor floopers as all mine are. The good thing is he is reading more that he has ever read. He's read Macbeth, Sense and Sensibility, Ivanhoe and Tale of Two Cities the first half of the year...I let him use the Sparknotes and Cliff notes so he wouldn't feel like he was drowning with his writing. I went over the "cheat sheets" with him, since up to this year all he ever read were almanacs, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and chess books. This was an intro course and there are other meatier choices available-I just wanted to whet his appetite and for him to want more. blessings... Edited January 18, 2009 by CherylG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 You definately have to narrow down great books lists. TWTM gives guidelines on how many works to aim for, so obviously, you aren't supposed to read them all. It also says that if you try something and don't like it, you should try something else. The list is a life-time list, not a 4-years-of-high-school list. It makes sense to read the easiest things on the list at the beginning of one's life, so you shouldn't feel guilty about not reading the more difficult works now. I think some people choose to have their children read the more difficult works because they are afraid they won't read them later, as adults, or because they think they should read them while someone is around to help them. I chose not to take this approach because it seems like it backfires; forced to read something they haven't lived enough to appreciate, the children decide that they don't like literature and are never going to read anything great again, if they can help it. The great books lists usually have lots of different sorts of works on them, ones that explore political history, philosophy, church history, government, poetry, plays, stories, religion, science, and so on. When you choose from the lists, you can choose an emphasis or two, ones that will suit your child. For example, my children are at a stage when they find most poetry annoyingly whiny in its self-absorbtion. They aren't terribly interested in history. Church history seems totally irrelivent to them. They do appreciate a little philosophy, one is a political activist, and they adore stories, so we're reading a little philosophy and government and a lot of stories - Sir Gawain, Beowulf, Shakespeare, Canterbury Tales, The Mabinogeon, Shakespeare plays, Homer, Greek plays, a few 19th century novels, etc. In between, we've read some more difficult things like The Republic, The Prince, and the US Constitution. We're all allergic to depressing literature, so my son (on his own during the summers because his brother was too young) read scifi instead of the normal 20th century things like The Great Gatsby. He can read those later, when he has lived enough to appreciate them. A different family might want to read lots of religion and church history, or might love the theatre and read mostly drama, or might be history buffs and read lots of the histories and biographies, or be scientists and read Aristotle and Newton and Darwin. By picking an emphasis, you can use past works to help you understand the new one, and see the development of ideas over time. TWEM genre histories helps you to make sense of this, too. So my advice is to pick the easier things that you think your children will like, and ones in which your children have some experience and interest, and keep hopefully repeating to them that the list is a lifetime list that they are supposed to keep working through the rest of their lives. HTH -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 (edited) Thanks again everyone. Nan, your last post was very helpful! Thank you! Edited January 18, 2009 by Quiver0f10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) Jean, this link was reassuring to me. Maybe it'll be useful to you. There are someone's notes on SWB's version of GB study. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=730003#post730003 Edited January 19, 2009 by Colleen in NS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halftime Hope Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I signed our math/chess headed 14 year old up for a Classical Christian on-line writing course ... which course was this that you had him take and how is he liking it? TIA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) Jean, this link was reassuring to me. Maybe it'll be useful to you. There are someone's notes on SWB's version of GB study. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=730003#post730003 Thank you. I can't open the document though, it's a .odt, which I have no clue what that is LOL! Edited January 19, 2009 by Quiver0f10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebeccaC Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) Thank you. I can't open the document though, it's a .odt, which I have no clue what that is LOL! IT is an Open Office doc and you can get Open Office for free as a download or get a download that will allow Word Office to read and open it. http://www.openoffice.org/ Edited January 19, 2009 by RebeccaC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holly IN Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 As we read things, they have to explain allusions and the plot to me. Having been through TWTM grammar and logic lists they have the necessary background. I just handed them the books to read, mostly, rather than reading them myself, so I don't. HTH -Nan, another badly educated person GRIN Can you explain this to me? What logic list are you talking about? I looked at my WTM and can't figure out what you mean. Sorry, just another badly educated person!! Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 The grammar stage and logic stage history and literature reading lists. Sorry. I was hurrying in the end and didn't really say what I meant. TWTM has tons of lists GRIN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Can you explain this to me? What logic list are you talking about? I looked at my WTM and can't figure out what you mean. Sorry, just another badly educated person!! Holly Hi Holly, I believe "grammar" and "logic" lists here are referring to the the 3 stages of the trivium: - grammar stage (gr. 1-4) list of books - logic stage (gr. 5-8) list of books - rhetoric stage (gr. 9-12) list of books You will find those a list of classical books and literature for each of those 3 stages in "The Well Trained Mind". A number of them are also listed on this website: - go to: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/convention.php - click on the heading "Academic Excellence" for whichever of the 3 stages you're interested in - scroll down the lengthy page until you get to either the History or Reading heading, and you'll find a list of book suggestions Hope that helps! Warmest regards, Lori D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.