Looking ahead to 3rd grade: WWE 3 or CW Aesop?

[Annabel Lee]

Now that I've recieved an answer to my question about whether WWE is a stand-alone writing program or not (it is, for anyone else new to it), I need to choose between it and CW for my older son entering 3rd grade this fall.

 

I've gone to the CW site and taken in as much info as is there, then joined the CW message board to ask this question. I've read "Why Writing Fails", "The Three Stages", and much more on the PHP site as well as searching "CW WWE" here and reading many of the results, including the question "What's the difference between CW and WWE?". Yet, I'm still left with that very question!

 

Someone please add to the comparison/contrast I've made so far with my limited research, if there is anything to be added:

 

WWE is more scripted, easier to use (more pick up and go), uses a wider array of literary examples, and is just a writing program (not a multi-language-arts inclusive program).

 

CW is more teacher intensive, draws mainly from ancient lit. in the earlier years, but there is a little more variety in types of writing exercises. It includes some grammar, spelling, and vocab.

 

Here are my considerations in choosing a program: I don't mind if it's totally scripted or teacher-intensive and I also don't mind if it's just a writing program or all-inclusive (I can always add another LA program for missing pieces). My son does enjoy the lit. selections in the WWE 2 workbook (I got the main book 1st so I have that too for understanding the larger scope of where it's going). I think he would enjoy the variety in types of writing exercises CW offers - although still limited, it's more than just narration/dictation/copywork. From what I've read, they have the child re-order things or imitate the model using little tiny tweaks. He may get bored if it's just 1 Aesop's Fable after another - he's heard many of them already.

 

Can anyone help me with this decision? At least I've narrowed it down to 2 now. :D

[arcara]

Actually, I've read that a lot of people prefer Writing Tales (WT) to CW in the beginning because it's more "fun". Now, don't take my word for this. The only writing program I've used is WWE.

 

My plan for my 4th grader next year is WWE 3 and WT 2. I figure that WWE doesn't take that much time, and I think my dd could use even more practice than WWE provides. I really want to work on her writing skills in preparation for the logic stage.

[Mallory]

Like arcara, I think that for 4th grade (next year) we are going to do both WWE and WT or CW Aesop.

[Jami]

I'm looking at the same situation. And I *think* we're going to do WWE with some of Matt Whitling's "Imitations in Writing" in 3rd grade and start CW (probably by itself without WWE) in 4th grade. One of my reasons is that my daughter works at the same level as my son and while she's a very strong writer for her age, I want to wait until I'm sure she's ready to handle CW too. My son certainly won't be hurt by waiting until 4th grade either. And I also want to be sure they're both ready to handle Homer when we get there, Aesop starts gently enough, but from what I know Homer ramps up pretty quickly and I don't want to get there too soon and crash and burn. ;)

[chai]

With Aesop you could use some of your own models. I added in some American Tall Tales, and Charlotte's Web (selections). It might make things more interesting.

 

FWIW, I love the whole CW series. I only used the Core for Aesop, but am using every book for Homer.

[Lovedtodeath]

CW is more teacher intensive, draws mainly from ancient lit. in the earlier years, but there is a little more variety in types of writing exercises.

 

I think he would enjoy the variety in types of writing exercises CW offers - although still limited, it's more than just narration/dictation/copywork.

 

So could you define more variety in writing exercises? Is this a "hole" in WWE, or does it come later (WWE5)?

[Zelda]

NFrom what I've read, they have the child re-order things or imitate the model using little tiny tweaks. He may get bored if it's just 1 Aesop's Fable after another - he's heard many of them already.

 

 

No, its not just Aesop's Fables. The first 4 or so are but there stories from James Baldwin and there are classic fairy tales and Bible excerpts. You can also select your own models.

 

I am using WWE 1 with my 1st grader and Aesop B with my 4th grader. I am very happy with both programs but I think I will shift my younger child to CW Aesop in third grade. It has just worked so well for us. I intend to continue on to Homer next year. It *is* teacher intensive (the workbook helped me a lot though) but I could see big results.

[Karen in CO]

How is your son's copywork and dictation? How are his narration skills? WWE really does a good job of helping you to teach these skills. I would want my dc to be comfortable in those before starting CW.

 

As an aside - I went through WWE 2 workbook and WWE 3 lessons this year with my dd8. She excelled and quickly grew bored with just doing that. My ultimate LA plans are for CW, but I wasn't ready to switch a second grader to CW. We are currently doing WWE type narration, copywork, and dictation in addition to a book from IEW (I have done IEW with my oldest so I was comfortable with it). Next year, I plan to do CW with her, but continue with the copywork, narration, and dictation as taught in WWE. But that assumes I know where she will be next fall.

[siloam]

It sounds like you could use either and be happy.

 

A few thoughts. First of all CW does use models from other than Aesop. Second in WWE you are tying to summarize the story, where with CW you are trying to re-tell it with close to the same length. Third if you have a creative child doing CW it is fine to change the setting, characters, ect...as long as the moral stays the same. For example instead of having a race between the Rabbit and the Turtle you can have an eating contest between a mouse and a bear.

 

CW seeks to build skills, like outlining, using a dictionary, a thesaurus. In Aesop they are working on breaking down sound in words for spelling, and basic grammar. In Homer it moves on to being able to change tense, and change the sentence type. The goal is to provide yourself with as many options as possible, so you can find the best one to express your thoughts. Now they don't have you doing this all at once. They build the sills over time in layers, but by the time you finish you are quite handy with them.

 

I am using WWE till 4th then moving over to CW, but I was using CW long before WWE came out, and really was inspired by it.

 

Heather

[Beth in SW WA]

In Homer it moves on to being able to change tense, and change the sentence type. The goal is to provide yourself with as many options as possible, so you can find the best one to express your thoughts. Now they don't have you doing this all at once. They build the sills over time in layers, but by the time you finish you are quite handy with them.

 

That is a fabulous explanation!! Now I get it!! :)

[Lovedtodeath]

Do you think WWE is more of a remedial program, and fills a need for 1-4, but is not needed for 5 and up b/c there are already great programs to choose from once you reach that point?

 

What would you say is the biggest difference between CW and WT?

[Karen in CO]

WWE isn't really remedial. It was designed for grammar stage kids. SWB said that she wrote it to give options for parents of younger kids and that there were many good options already out there for older kids.

[Lovedtodeath]

That answers my question! What I mean is that WWE is for 1-4 or remedial, but after they have mastered the basics in WWE 1-4 it is time to move on to something else, whether that is 3rd grade or 7th.

[Karen in CO]

Yep - that is my understanding - WWE says - maybe in chapter 3 (if only I could remember who I lent the main text to) that it is intended for beginning writers - the ones just learning the mechanics of how to put ideas to paper. SO once your student is comfy in longer dictation and can write the first few sentences of their own narration, then I would think it is time to move on to writing instruction.

[Lovedtodeath]

I was under the impression from reading WWE that there were going to be more levels made, or at least another how-to type book for WWE 5 and beyond, but from what you are saying, it doesn't sound like it?

[siloam]

That answers my question! What I mean is that WWE is for 1-4 or remedial, but after they have mastered the basics in WWE 1-4 it is time to move on to something else, whether that is 3rd grade or 7th.

 

 

I have the WWE book, and I am using the workbooks. I haven't read all of WWE through :D I do agree with her CD, how she sees the developmental stages of writing. Before WWE came out I did dictation starting in K, then narration in 2nd, and CW in 4th. WWE just made things a little easier.

 

If SWB writes books for older kids I will consider them, but given I already own CW and love it I doubt I would switch. KWIM?

 

Well CW and WT that is another can of words. Oh Elizabeth has used both, but from what she has said WT is scripted, where CW expects you the parent to understand what is going on. In fact CW was originally just a how to book, like WWE then they added workbooks later (again reminiscent of WWE). The models they choose are all public domain, and most of them use an older verbage, where the WT models are in today's language. In general WT was written for younger children and CW was written for older. While you can start Aesop in 3rd grade as written (with the workbooks) A is only a 18 week program and B is only an 18 week program-one year all together. Homer is recommended for 5th grade and up. Well you can see the problems lining the program up with the ages it is recommended for. It is just easier to wait till 4th to start. If you are using WT though it has two full year long programs for Aesop, so you can start in 3rd and then switch over to CW for Homer in 5th. It just works better for some people, especially where there has been a void of programs people really like for the younger years.

 

Heather

 

 

[Lovedtodeath]

Thank you Heather!

[Annabel Lee]

So could you define more variety in writing exercises? Is this a "hole" in WWE, or does it come later (WWE5)?

 

Oh I was just stating what I had gathered and understood so far, and asking people to chime in if they could see that I misunderstood or if there were anymore differences between WWE and CW that I missed.

 

What I meant by "more variety" was that I was under the (wrong) impression that CW A used all lit. excerpts from Aesop's Fables (which people have cleared up now) vs. the variety of lit. SWB has in WWE.

 

My son is not very strong in narration - we do OK sometimes but when he gets it 'wrong', it's hard for me to find words to tell him what I *am* looking for. Same with dictation. We started FLL and WWE in the middle of year 1 this year to meet him where his skill level was and plan to finish up year 2 by the end of June. So we've just barely begun dictation and after reading SWB's articles "Why Writing Fails" and "The Three Stages" (thank you, whoever recommended that!), I'm able to tell him to hold the sentence in his mind, to make a picture of the words in his memory to look at for while he's writing.

 

Since narration and dictation are new to him this year and it's not going smoothly yet, I think we'll stick with WWE for awhile longer.

Question: CW doesn't do the narration/copywork/dictation like WWE?

 

CW still intrigues me though! I'll revisit it when he's older, 4th or 5th like you all said. From the CW site and message boards, it sounds like CW A A and CW A B are meant to be done in separate school years, because I read something about there being time left to implement the skills learned in CW on a writing assignment on another subject like history, lit., etc. Did anyone else gather that? I should look under CW's "what to buy" section again, I'm sure that would clear it up. I think they split it into 2 years when you start them in 3rd grade, the schedule differs depending on what grade you start CW in. :confused::tongue_smilie: Oh well. Off to check other threads now!

[arcara]

I was under the impression from reading WWE that there were going to be more levels made, or at least another how-to type book for WWE 5 and beyond, but from what you are saying, it doesn't sound like it?

 

It was also my understanding that SWB is writing books for grades 5-12 to complete the series. It's unclear how they would compare to CW. The logic stage books are supposed to teach outlining, but I'm not sure what else. At least, that's my understanding...

Edited January 11, 2009 by arcara
typos

[Lovedtodeath]

It was also my understanding that SWB is writing books for grades 5-12 to complete the series. It's unclear how they would compare to CW. The logic stage books are supposed to teach outlining, but I'm not sure what else. At least, that's my understanding...

 

It looked to me like applying digramming to choosing the best words and structure for each sentence would be addressed in WWE 5.

[siloam]

 

 

Since narration and dictation are new to him this year and it's not going smoothly yet, I think we'll stick with WWE for awhile longer.

Question: CW doesn't do the narration/copywork/dictation like WWE?

 

Yes I would keep in in WWE for now, he needs those skills to be solid when he starts CW. On the first day when you read the story you do an oral narration before outlining the work. Then later in the week they have the child do dictation of a part of the model. The re-write is also similar to a narration, especially if you have a child who doesn't want to change the story in any way. You are just doing the same length instead of summarizing it (or tying to, my dd often still manages to make it shorter). :D

 

Heather

[Annabel Lee]

Yes I would keep in in WWE for now, he needs those skills to be solid when he starts CW. On the first day when you read the story you do an oral narration before outlining the work. Then later in the week they have the child do dictation of a part of the model. The re-write is also similar to a narration, especially if you have a child who doesn't want to change the story in any way. You are just doing the same length instead of summarizing it (or tying to, my dd often still manages to make it shorter). :D

 

Heather

 

Thanks for all the info, Heather. I don't mean to harp on it but I'm still confused a little. It sounds like CW goes over those skills but with additional things (outlining, rewriting, etc.)... So CW isn't meant for and couldn't be used for teaching narration/dictation?

[siloam]

Thanks for all the info, Heather. I don't mean to harp on it but I'm still confused a little. It sounds like CW goes over those skills but with additional things (outlining, rewriting, etc.)... So CW isn't meant for and couldn't be used for teaching narration/dictation?

 

I am one who asks LOTS of questions because I have to wrap my mind around something before I buy it, please keep asking!

 

Yes CW assumes a proficiency with certain things. You can use CW to teach them if you choose your own models and go at your own pace. If you want to use the workbooks that CW has put together those elements are going to move very quickly. It more uses those techniques. On the other hand they assume the child hasn't been doing outlining, so they spend more time dealing with it and explain how to teach it more in the core book.

 

It is my feeling that with narrations and dictation it takes more fequency to learn it than what CW has. CW does narration once a week and dictation once a week. The first model is only have a page long, but by week 6 they are two pages long, which is a lot for a child who isn't proficient to work with. I see it as moving ahead with a child who is proficient, but has only worked with shorter models. The dictation is also around a paragraph, so again it is moving into the area where you have proficiency, but you are increasing the volume.

 

I feel the same about the grammar. While it might be used as beginning instruction it moves pretty quickly (a new concept each week), and it works with a high volume, not just once sentence, but the whole dictation passage (paragraph or longer). If you use it as an instructional program you are probably going to have to slow it down, where if you use it with a child who has a good grasp, but just has only worked with it lightly, then volume is the next step.

 

Heather