a PS friend has shocked me today/reason I HS #36(deserves to be #1 today!)

[Peek a Boo]

I really don't like to argue with anyone about this sort of thing. I know too many caring parents on both 'sides' -- hs and school --to make generalizations of this nature. I see plenty enough bad parenting in both 'camps'.

 

Hsing works for us. I don't need to see most schoolers as sufferring for this to be right for us. I also know plenty of children with loving parents who are thriving in schools. And when my older chiclren were in school, I never thought badly of hsers. I feel terrible about children being harassed & disrespected anywhere -- and that happens more in children's own homes than anywhere else.

 

where's the argument? --it is what it is. The numbers are what they are. That's not an ignorant generalization, it's plain fact and substantiated by the school system's own reports and studies. The only argument would be if we wanted to question what the schools report.

 

I don't have to "see" schoolers as suffering for homeschooling to be right for us, and I don't have to "think badly" of kids in schools to know that type of social atmosphere is not ideal. I certainly don't giggle w/ glee everytime we see/ hear Yet Another Story about some nasty little occurrence in a group setting -park, co-op, or school. I just realize on a practical level that the exposure rate to negative social interactions is higher there, and i don't want that for my kids.

 

ETA: I'll reference my post above --#49-- in that this is NOT about whether/how kids are abused, but the fact that exposure rates to results of abuse are higher in group settings, thus why many of us choose to homeschool.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Peek a Boo

[mktyler]

Originally Posted by LaurieNE

If we are looking at statistics, most children are abused in their own homes, by people who are related to them, not in schools or by schools. Even if we look at some hsing communtities, for instance, LDS compound raids this past year, and yes I get that they are not representative of LDS, we can see abuse. Does that mean that most hsing families abuse their kids? Of course not.

 

We know it's not because they are hs'd. Public school children do not get to choose their parents any more than hs'd kids can choose theirs.

 

I agree that many public schools are not working well. But I see so many families that are simply not working well or at all.

 

 

 

 

Just a quick correction--it was not an LDS compound, but a Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints compound (FLDS). There is a BIG difference between these two groups, even though the names are similar. The LDS Church put out this information to help clarify the distinctions: http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/church-seeks-to-address-public-confusion-over-texas-polygamy-group

 

Melissa

Minnesota

Reading Program Junkie

[tibbyl]

... But I do know people who think water play in underpants is equal to nakedness. My parents would have thought so, which is why I swam in cullottes and a shirt and full underclothes well into my teens. They did describe beach and pool going as promoting nudity. So while certainly they would not be lying, I can see them describing their own reality and interpreting what they saw according to their own mores. I can see them having a problem with the local lakes and pools, what with the naked preschoolers running around without anyone blinking an eye. .

 

Do public and private schools today still have male students swim in the nude? At Forsythe Junior High in Ann Arbor, Michigan in mid 1960s, nude swimming for males in gym class was the norm.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Do public and private schools today still have male students swim in the nude? At Forsythe Junior High in Ann Arbor, Michigan in mid 1960s, nude swimming for males in gym class was the norm.

 

I've not heard of that nowadays. But in my son's all-male high school, the senior class had (has still, I guess) an annual event where they streak naked through the library. :D

 

In cultures all over the world, people of the same gender swim in the nude.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Pam "SFSOM" in TN

[LibraryLover]

I remember when my brother (40) was in preschool and the teachers had a rash of children 'playing doctor' and some parents were more freaked than others. One little girl was always trying to give birth in the housekeeping area, taking off her undies or tights, and lots of kids were 'helping'. I am not sure nakey bodies and curiosity or touching, even, means children are being abused at home. I think a lot of this 'play' is totally 100% natural.

[LibraryLover]

[Just a quick correction--it was not an LDS compound, but a Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints compound (FLDS). There is a BIG difference between these two groups, even though the names are similar. The LDS Church put out this information to help clarify the distinctions: http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/church-seeks-to-address-public-confusion-over-texas-polygamy-group

 

Melissa

Minnesota

Reading Program Junkie

 

Yes. Thank you. I knew I was not typing that correctly. I meant to check and change it.

[Joanne]

I remember when my brother (40) was in preschool and the teachers had a rash of children 'playing doctor' and some parents were more freaked than others. One little girl was always trying to give birth in the housekeeping area, taking off her undies or tights, and lots of kids were 'helping'. I am not sure nakey bodies and curiosity or touching, even, means children are being abused at home. I think a lot of this 'play' is totally 100% natural.

 

I completely agree. Normal, expected and of course, not appropriate.

 

It's one reason "zero tolerance" policies (which have emerged from many institutional settings in response to political correctness and other issues) are......stupid.

[Cricket]

And no, it is not okay for little boys to engage in this behavior just because they are curious. Can you say spread of disease? We would swat a pet dog for making advances toward someone's leg. Why can we not expect to train young humans to overcome their inappropriate sexual urges also?

 

The fact that children are engaging in inappropriate sexual behavior in public school indicates a failure in all of us, our whole society. We have allowed a society where children are exposed to such things via the media and poor parenting is commonly shrugged off as not "my problem". We have permitted an educational system to exist that does not quickly and effectively address such issues. Our apathy merely opens the path for this kind of outrage to happen. Removing my dd from such a system is my first step in acting against this system. Prayer, education of other parents, and political activism are other options.

 

I couldn't agree more! I think a lot of this behavior has more to do with what children are allowed to see on TV and in movies and on the internet than it has to do with widespread sexual abuse. An 8 yo boy my kids know has more knowledge of sex than my kids do. All because his 12 yo stepbrother shows him videos on the internet and his grandma shrugs it off. We aren't prudes and we don't have a problem with nudity. The kids are well aware that Daddy is very attracted to Mommy. :) We do have a big problem with the notion that sex is fine whenever and however you feel like doing it with no consequences or responsibility attached. My daughters are growing up in a world where these boys will one day become men. It's very frightening. You can better believe my girls will take martial arts and self-defense and know how to handle a gun. If these boys think this kind of behavior is okay to do in front of their entire classroom and no one corrects them, what happens next?

[LibraryLover]

I completely agree. Normal, expected and of course, not appropriate.

 

It's one reason "zero tolerance" policies (which have emerged from many institutional settings in response to political correctness and other issues) are......stupid.

 

 

Yeah. I get crazy reading about so many normal, lovely little children being thrown to the curb because of this. Parents and teachersd alike don't seem to have an understanding of basic developmental issues. Plus, our US provincal craziness has done so much harm. Whenever I read about some little 5 yr old being arrested for his/her curiosity, I think "Oh. My, God. We have totally lost our minds."

 

It's not unlike little perfectly normal 6 or 7 yr old little boys being given a Special Needs/Learning Disability label because they don't 'read fluently' and/or because they actually like to *move*. It's a crying shame so many kids are punished so young, and for no rational reasons. I feel so sad when I see lovely hsing families thinking it's right to push reading etc in children to small to get it. It's a terrible cycle-- and I know it happens even more in schools.

Edited January 5, 2009 by LibraryLover

[Zelda]

Do public and private schools today still have male students swim in the nude? At Forsythe Junior High in Ann Arbor, Michigan in mid 1960s, nude swimming for males in gym class was the norm.

 

You know, my dad, who has had a major stroke that has severely limited his memory and communication, was visiting me over the break and was trying to tell me about swimming lessons/class when he was a kid and kept insisting that it was nude. I thought one of us must be very confused or that he was saying nude but meant something else. I'm going to call him now.

[LibraryLover]

You know, my dad, who has had a major stroke that has severely limited his memory and communication, was visiting me over the break and was trying to tell me about swimming lessons/class when he was a kid and kept insisting that it was nude. I thought one of us must be very confused or that he was saying nude but meant something else. I'm going to call him now.

 

 

I have heard that from various ederly uncles, one who attended a 'good' boarding school. My dh;s brothers, who served in the army when they lived in Europe, say that nothing at all was private. Nothing.

 

Which reminds me of the ancient Romans sitting around in the spas with their robes about their waists taking dumps together.

 

I can't imagine the stench, or the children who witnessed it all, plus the stench. lol

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I have heard that from various ederly uncles, one who attended a 'good' boarding school. My dh;s brothers, who served in the army when they lived in Europe, say that nothing at all was private. Nothing.

 

Which reminds me of the ancient Romans sitting around in the spas with their robes about their waists taking dumps together.

 

I can't imagine the stench, or the children who witnessed it all, plus the stench. lol

 

Um, well, I grew up with a two-seater outhouse. So.

 

:auto:

 

ETA: And you know, all this nudity stuff is but a spinoff from the original scenario, which frankly I find disturbing and appalling. (The event itself, not the fact that it was posted or deplored.)

Edited January 6, 2009 by Pam "SFSOM" in TN

[LibraryLover]

Um, well, I grew up with a two-seater outhouse. So.

 

:auto:

 

ETA: And you know, all this nudity stuff is but a spinoff from the original scenario, which frankly I find disturbing and appalling. (The event itself, not the fact that it was posted or deplored.)

 

No, that is bad.

 

Although we have no sense of what those ancient/classical Roman children saw and/or acted out.

Edited January 6, 2009 by LibraryLover

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I feel ill. :(

 

It's not just schools.

 

 

 

Yeah. Everything I learned, I learned at church. Pretty much, anyhow.

[Joanne]

FTR, I don't put nudity on the same level as unsolicited or inappropriate interaction.

[6packofun]

A couple of statements to let you know where I am coming from:

 

My DH is a public school bus driver for elementary and middle school students.

 

I work in a public school (before and after school, taking care of 25+ average public school kids).

 

I am usually one of the first to jump on the "anti public school" bus on this board.

 

That said......

 

It's not uncommon or unexpected for elementary males to show their parts. Boys stay in a long "potty" fascination stage.

 

 

I tend to agree with that aspect of it. When I was in Kindergarten in 1976, we had to change for gym class IN the classroom--not enough bathroom space to take turns, it took too long--boys and girls together. That would be UNHEARD of today. The girls created barriers to undress/dress behind with chairs and tables while the boys practically danced around in their undies and sometimes a few flashed everyone. I never believed that the changing clothes thing was found in typical classrooms (and my mom was PISSED), but the boys' behavior? Pretty much so. LOL Inappropriate, but not surprising and it just should have been redirected and taken care of.

 

(Obviously the sexual overtones in the OP's story here is quite another thing.)

[LibraryLover]

Yeah. Everything I learned, I learned at church. Pretty much, anyhow.

 

 

I have a good friend who has shared that his drunken teen sexual experiences happend in the basement of his church during church gatherings. He says it was the best cover. Admittedly, his father, a minister, was basically an alcoholic and never knew what he was doing and his mother was too worried/busy with/about the congregation to keep an eye on him.

 

He has no bad feelings about his familiy, despite it all, he realizes his parents are mere humans. Stuff happens, & houses of worship are not so terribly immune to human frailties.

Edited January 6, 2009 by LibraryLover

[Joanne]

I have a good friend who has shared that his drunken teen sexual experiences happend in the basement of his church during church gatherings.

 

Some of my most wild drinking times involved the bell choir trips I went on with the 12 or so other teens from my church.

[Peek a Boo]

Yeah. Everything I learned, I learned at church. Pretty much, anyhow.

 

attending youth groups pretty much turned me off letting my kids ever attend w/o me because of that.

[SonshineLearner]

Are cases like this across the board? And, maybe kids should just ALWAYS be supervised. That's what I assume happens when we send kids to school; adults are present when their are children in the classroom.

I'm glad that my children are kept unsocialized at home:-)

Carrie:-)

Whose children do ballet, drama, and other interactive activities...with an adult present.

[texascamps]

In First Grade, my son was sent to the Principal for peeing on a tree during recess.....This was just one of those "Ooops" situations where we forgot to inform ds that in the world, even boys need to use the facilities. He did not really get in trouble, just a talking to about appropriate toileting in school.

 

He was devistated and begged forgiveness from me. I, of course, told him he wasn't in trouble and that I'd just forgotten to tell him the rules in school.

 

We are often in the woods, or playing in our backyard, and it seems silly to make the boys always find a toilet.

 

 

I've got to say that there is not a big expectation of privacy in our house. ( My lawyer dh tells the kids this all of the time...its a legal thing) When friends are over, the kids bedrooms need to stay open. Close the doors when you are dressing, open when you are done, but doors are to remain open. ( I have many reasons for this rule... most are practical)

 

For the longest time they kept the bathroom doors open when doing their business, and friends and family come and go. Thankfully, they find that age when they need that kind of privacy.

 

And it seems that when the kids are younger they flock to whatever bathroom dh is sitting in doing his business. Some of my most humorous memories are of dh reading a stack of books to three little kids sitting in front of him while he sits on the potty. They know daddy is going to be there for at least 30 minutes.

(During those first few years of parenting he and I wondered if that was wierd not to shield the kids from nudity and toileting....but after a while it became impractical and counterintuitive to "shield" them from this kind of stuff)

 

(As far as hanging out with Dad in the potty, hey wise up as they get older, the smell usually scares them away)

 

How many of us remember the series of kids we had sitting on our lap as we are on the toilet, reading books to them......I'm always getting visitors in the bathroom.

 

But, I am off topic I guess... the wierd sexual behavior displayed by these young children is almost animalistic....If I'd heard about it in my area, I would make inquiries and maybe call the news to have them investigate...Sometimes it takes a loud voice.....I certainly wouldn't shrug my shoulders and just overlook it.

 

I agree that we all have different standards as to appropriate behavior...

[brewer13399]

My son is going into 2nd and this a HUGE reason why I want to homeschool. THANK YOU for reminding me.

[OrganicAnn]

This is an old thread. 18 months old.

Edited June 7, 2010 by OrganicAnn

[MariannNOVA]

Does someone have the responsibility to report this to Child Services? That's a huge red flag of something very bad, very wrong happening in those children's lives that they would do that.

 

I know it's shocking that kids would do that, but what lies beneath it? All I can think is that someone needs to help those kids. Now.

 

 

AGREED! It is my understanding that an employee/teacher in a school system is bound to report this -- particularly in light of the fact that your friend mentioned she believes it is happening in the home of the child.

[RamonaQ]

Does someone have the responsibility to report this to Child Services? That's a huge red flag of something very bad, very wrong happening in those children's lives that they would do that.

 

I know it's shocking that kids would do that, but what lies beneath it? All I can think is that someone needs to help those kids. Now.

 

:iagree:

I couldn't agree more.

[Wheres Toto]

The initial scenario is appalling and I certainly hope all the parents were informed and the ones of the kids involved were checked out.

 

I have one who has been in public school for 11 years now and never had anything like this happen (and unfortunately at one point she was not in a good school district). I do agree that children are more likely to be exposed to inappropriate behaviour in school, just because its a large number in one place. BUT, it's hard to say how much more likely it is since in schools it's being reported. Most of the time these things are made public in one way or another - we seem to look for the most outrageous examples and, of course, the media also spreads them around.

 

In contrast, the things that only happen at home, or in small, private group situations - at camps, at church groups, at playgrounds - are less likely to get widespread publicity.

[TXMary2]

This is sad and maddening, but surprisingly not the first time I have heard about something like this. A few years ago at one of our town's elementary campuses one boy sexually assaulted another boy in the school bathroom. There is a lawsuit because the school did NOTHING after the victim's parent reported the incident to the principal. Ultimately the principal was moved to another school and the superintendent resigned over it.

 

The victim's parent also bears some responsibility for the aftermath because she continued sending the child to school!!!!! That is something I have a huge problem with. I don't understand how she kept sending him knowing the other boy was never disciplined and was still at the school. It is mind blowing.