s/o Entitlement these days!

[SKL]

What's happening to create these trends?

Untrained pets in grocery stores ...

Numerous students demanding grade inflation to fix their failure to study ...

And a whole list of other things that may or may not be "politically incorrect" to list ....

As an employer, there's emotional blackmail such as "I'll lose custody of my kid!" in efforts to get preferential treatment.  It's often BS, but that doesn't make it easy to deal with in the moment.

What do you think?  Other examples?  Causes?  Solutions?

[teachermom2834]

I don’t have any answers other than that your children can be wildly successful if you manage to buck these trends. My kids in school and the workplace report outperforming their peers (who they report to be smarter than themselves) by just taking care of their stuff. I know that doesn’t help on a large scale but I can influence my own kids.

My dd will complain about kids in school whose parents do the squeaky wheel thing and it does work more often than not to get grades fixed, exceptions made, etc. I won’t do those things but as I was just discussing with her this morning, eventually they all have to walk into ACTs, or APs or someday the bar exam or whatever and stand on their own. 
 

 

[Indigo Blue]

I was just discussing with ds about the entitlement of “therapy” dogs on planes. We both love dogs but are surprised at the entitlement of people. There are supposed rules but but they don’t seem to be enforced. I personally have no problem at all with a pet on a plane, but I agree that entitled people take advantage. 

[Indigo Blue]

My neighbor just lets her large dog loose daily to roam around and do her business, usually in my yard. We live on a busy road, too. The dog jumps all over me as I’m coming down my sidewalk with my arms full, trying to go inside. She gets dirt and snags on clothes that I’d prefer to not have dirt and snags on. I like the dog….still. But the owner is completely oblivious and it is just so astounding. She would live in a whole different world of neighbor wars if I were a different person. But the entitlement…..she actually sees me having difficulty with her dog’s bad behavior and doesn’t care. I have coaxed the dog back to her many times and enticed her to follow me as I walk the dog back home, as she is completely untrained and will not come on command. The lady doesn’t care and is absolutely unfazed. I have had the worst luck for years now with having neighbors who let their badly behaved dogs into my yard. Once I was cornered in my own yard by a growling mastiff. Neighbor just shrugged and said she’s friendly. SMH. 

Edited July 28 by Indigo Blue
Typo

[teachermom2834]

2 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

My neighbor just lets her large dog loose daily to roam around and do her business, usually in my yard. We live on a busy road, too. The dog jumps all over me as I’m coming down my sidewalk with my arms full, trying to go inside. She gets dirt and snags on clothes that I’d prefer to no have dirt and snags on. I like the dog….still. But the owner is completely oblivious and it is just so astounding. She would live in a whole different world of neighbor wars if I were a different person. But the entitlement…..she actually sees me having difficulty with her dog’s bad behavior and doesn’t care. I have coaxed the dog back to her many times and enticed her to follow me as I walk the dog back home, as she is completely untrained and will not come on command. The lady doesn’t care and is absolutely unfazed. I have had the worst luck for years now with having neighbors who let their badly behaved dogs into my yard. Once I was cornered in my own yard by a growing mastiff. Neighbor just shrugged and said she’s friendly. SMH. 

I had a similar situation with a large golden doodle living next door at my last house. A couple times I had people knock on my door and try to return him to me because they thought it was my dog so the dog was bothering the whole neighborhood. 
 

A couple times I pulled up in my driveway and was afraid to exit my car because he was standing at my car door barking his head off at me. 
 

I tried to talk to the lady and she just shrugged. Literally. Shrugged. Too bad so sad. I can’t understand it at all.

[Indigo Blue]

6 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I had a similar situation with a large golden doodle living next door at my last house. A couple times I had people knock on my door and try to return him to me because they thought it was my dog so the dog was bothering the whole neighborhood. 
 

A couple times I pulled up in my driveway and was afraid to exit my car because he was standing at my car door barking his head off at me. 
 

I tried to talk to the lady and she just shrugged. Literally. Shrugged. Too bad so sad. I can’t understand it at all.

Good grief.

[Corraleno]

I think over the last decade in particular there has been a big cultural shift, in part pushed by the pervasive "angertainment" industry, to recast privileges as rights and to convince people that anything that benefits someone else must also, by definition, take something away from you — and you should be mad about it.

So if that seeing eye dog gets to go to the grocery store but my little Fifi can't come with me, then I'm being discriminated against and my right to have my dog with me at all times is being violated. The argument that we shouldn't take dogs into grocery stores for reasons of hygiene and to protect those with allergies doesn't carry any weight, because why should I be deprived of the right to have FIfi with me just because other people are allergic? That's their problem, not mine.

I have the right to not cover my face just because I don't wanna, even if that means other people get sick and die. I have the right to sit wherever I want on a plane even if other people reserved those seats first. I have the right to drive however I want and if any other driver does something I perceive as disrespectful, then I have the right to get out and scream at them and wave the gun that I also have the right to carry everywhere in case someone pisses me off. I have the right to pass this class by putting in whatever effort I feel is warranted, and if I don't get the grade I want then you, the professor, are depriving me of the ability to graduate/keep my scholarship/feed my kids/etc. 

[Jaybee]

43 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I don’t have any answers other than that your children can be wildly successful if you manage to buck these trends. My kids in school and the workplace report outperforming their peers (who they report to be smarter than themselves) by just taking care of their stuff. I know that doesn’t help on a large scale but I can influence my own kids.

My dd will complain about kids in school whose parents do the squeaky wheel thing and it does work more often than not to get grades fixed, exceptions made, etc. I won’t do those things but as I was just discussing with her this morning, eventually they all have to walk into ACTs, or APs or someday the bar exam or whatever and stand on their own. 
 

 

My ds going into a trade field, always gets offered jobs from internships/summer jobs, because he shows up on time and every day! (I'm sure that's not all, because he is a hard worker and just has a "feel" for what he should do next, but those things are definitely positives in his favor.)

[KungFuPanda]

I work at a CC and I’m told the sheer number of registration appeals has skyrocketed in the last 10-15 years. In the past, people filed a registration appeal (which can gain you a refund or remove a class from your transcript) because of extreme circumstances. Maybe you got in a car accident, were hospitalized, and missed your drop dates while going through this. You could file an appeal and be retroactively dropped to the refund date. Now kids will file an appeal because they stopped going to class, didn’t bother to drop or withdraw, didn’t know about drop dates, and just don’t want to pay the bill or have an NA grade on their transcript. We see kids every day who sincerely believe that being too disorganized to read is grounds for an appeal. They’re not thinking “I just learned that the hard way.” They’re absolutely conditioned to try to find a way to avoid responsibility for their actions.  They sincerely believe things should be set up for them so that there are no friction points and everything is easy. 
 

This does not represent the vast majority of students. Most of them figure out what they need to do and do it. However, something has shifted to embolden the students who drop the ball. A kid can get a physical stamp on their paper schedule and an email with their drop dates on it and still insist they were never told these dates exist.  They’re so confident. 

[-----]

nm

Edited August 3 by kathyl

[Carrie12345]

I think parents who let children run amok are some of the most entitled.   
Ages and locations may have different expectations, and I 100% have always understood that kids will challenge boundaries (I do have 5!) But, no, it’s not okay for elementary kids to run around a non-kiddie-specific store. And it isn’t okay for teens to disrupt museum tours.

It sucks dragging misbehaving kids out of a public space. Again, I understand because I have 5! BTDT. They were not thrilled with my behavior rules when they were younger, but now they stare at rude parents in shock.

[HomeAgain]

Bear with me, but I'm going to say it's the lack of front porches.

Years ago, there was a much bigger community focus.  It was about the need to rely on each other, the need to connect in small groups, the need to have a thriving community to get anything done.  Think about the pledge of allegiance, literally making a promise to the nation.

We don't have community.  We have neighborhoods where doors don't face each other.  Children don't play outside.  There's no time at schools for recess.  Companies screw over workers and try to keep them from talking to each other.  There's 50 churches in every town instead of 1-3.  There is a lack of public transportation, public services, public parks, public gatherings where people interact in different areas but with the same people

Of course it's going to be more looking out for yourself, your needs, and advocating for yourself because the needs of the community are not nearly as transparent.  The lessons that used to be instilled in children in their play and working together are replaced with singular lessons and games. 

We have reduced society to moments of interpersonal connection, not having society require the sheer existence of it.

[Ottakee]

28 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Bear with me, but I'm going to say it's the lack of front porches.

Years ago, there was a much bigger community focus.  It was about the need to rely on each other, the need to connect in small groups, the need to have a thriving community to get anything done.  Think about the pledge of allegiance, literally making a promise to the nation.

We don't have community.  We have neighborhoods where doors don't face each other.  Children don't play outside.  There's no time at schools for recess.  Companies screw over workers and try to keep them from talking to each other.  There's 50 churches in every town instead of 1-3.  There is a lack of public transportation, public services, public parks, public gatherings where people interact in different areas but with the same people

Of course it's going to be more looking out for yourself, your needs, and advocating for yourself because the needs of the community are not nearly as transparent.  The lessons that used to be instilled in children in their play and working together are replaced with singular lessons and games. 

We have reduced society to moments of interpersonal connection, not having society require the sheer existence of it.

I remember reading a book once on the tearing down and then rebuilding of some housing projects and how that disrupted the neighborhood so much and that the new ones didn’t have front porches or gathering spaces so they lost that neighbor connection.

[Terabith]

Also the rise of air conditioning led directly to the balkanization of American society.

[SKL]

42 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

They were not thrilled with my behavior rules when they were younger, but now they stare at rude parents in shock.

My 17yos are of the opinion that kids these days, from middle school on down, are almost completely undisciplined.  As in, they don't think they should have to listen to teachers / coaches etc. unless they want to.  They will out and say, "I don't have to listen to you."

I don't know, I don't really spend much time with those age groups any more.  Maybe my kids have precocious "get off my lawn" syndrome.

I wonder if it's related to the downtrend in births, and particularly of young parents with a bunch of kids.  My folks ran a tight ship because otherwise, 4-6 kids would get out of control, and people would get hurt.  I remember that my folks were way more chill with their two youngest kids, partly because they were older & had a much smaller ratio of little kids to teens/adults.

When the Chinese one-child policy took effect, there was a phenomenon of "little emperors," and I wonder if we're edging toward that with our declining birth rate.

[Jaybee]

3 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I work at a CC and I’m told the sheer number of registration appeals has skyrocketed in the last 10-15 years. In the past, people filed a registration appeal (which can gain you a refund or remove a class from your transcript) because of extreme circumstances. Maybe you got in a car accident, were hospitalized, and missed your drop dates while going through this. You could file an appeal and be retroactively dropped to the refund date. Now kids will file an appeal because they stopped going to class, didn’t bother to drop or withdraw, didn’t know about drop dates, and just don’t want to pay the bill or have an NA grade on their transcript. We see kids every day who sincerely believe that being too disorganized to read is grounds for an appeal. They’re not thinking “I just learned that the hard way.” They’re absolutely conditioned to try to find a way to avoid responsibility for their actions.  They sincerely believe things should be set up for them so that there are no friction points and everything is easy. 
 

This does not represent the vast majority of students. Most of them figure out what they need to do and do it. However, something has shifted to embolden the students who drop the ball. A kid can get a physical stamp on their paper schedule and an email with their drop dates on it and still insist they were never told these dates exist.  They’re so confident. 

Ah, this is so helpful to know for those nightmares I still have of never being able to find the room, or completely forgetting I had a class, etc. I'll try to pull it up next time and see what happens!

[Terabith]

52 minutes ago, SKL said:

My 17yos are of the opinion that kids these days, from middle school on down, are almost completely undisciplined.  As in, they don't think they should have to listen to teachers / coaches etc. unless they want to.  They will out and say, "I don't have to listen to you."

I don't know, I don't really spend much time with those age groups any more.  Maybe my kids have precocious "get off my lawn" syndrome.

I wonder if it's related to the downtrend in births, and particularly of young parents with a bunch of kids.  My folks ran a tight ship because otherwise, 4-6 kids would get out of control, and people would get hurt.  I remember that my folks were way more chill with their two youngest kids, partly because they were older & had a much smaller ratio of little kids to teens/adults.

When the Chinese one-child policy took effect, there was a phenomenon of "little emperors," and I wonder if we're edging toward that with our declining birth rate.

It's not universal, but there is some evidence that the behavior of Gen Alpha is worse at a societal level than Gen Z.  It's a combination of ready access to screens, making it a lot easier to shove a screen in a kid's face to occupy them at times that might otherwise be uncomfortable (running errands, sitting at a restaurant, etc), gentle parenting being misconstrued as not parenting, and parents being overwhelmed by impossible situations making it so that parenting gets neglected.  Parents are held to an impossible standard.  They aren't allowed to kick kids outside.  They are expected to enrich their children's lives at every moment, and they certainly can't leave them alone, even well into middle school years, but parents are also being asked to work impossible hours (because cost of living), often with far less societal support and an incredibly judgmental culture.  Factor in a couple years during the pandemic where kids were basically locked in the house while parents tried to work from home, and it is pretty much impossible.  So kids are not being raised by either extensive adult interaction and they aren't being raised by other kids, the way a lot of Gen Xers were, because there is no "kid culture," since there is no such thing as free play anymore really.  

[KungFuPanda]

7 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

Ah, this is so helpful to know for those nightmares I still have of never being able to find the room, or completely forgetting I had a class, etc. I'll try to pull it up next time and see what happens!

The kids who actually worry about stuff aren’t really the problem. It’s the kids who come in saying “I accidentally signed up for a class without knowing it. I never checked my schedule or went to class. Why do I have this bill and how do I get out of it?” Sir, it’s like you purchased a concert ticket and never attended. Additionally, they would have had to accidentally confirm this purchase . . . twice. 

[Frances]

5 hours ago, SKL said:

My 17yos are of the opinion that kids these days, from middle school on down, are almost completely undisciplined.  As in, they don't think they should have to listen to teachers / coaches etc. unless they want to.  They will out and say, "I don't have to listen to you."

I don't know, I don't really spend much time with those age groups any more.  Maybe my kids have precocious "get off my lawn" syndrome.

I wonder if it's related to the downtrend in births, and particularly of young parents with a bunch of kids.  My folks ran a tight ship because otherwise, 4-6 kids would get out of control, and people would get hurt.  I remember that my folks were way more chill with their two youngest kids, partly because they were older & had a much smaller ratio of little kids to teens/adults.

When the Chinese one-child policy took effect, there was a phenomenon of "little emperors," and I wonder if we're edging toward that with our declining birth rate.

I don’t think it has anything to do with the number of children. Most people are going to parent the same way whether they have one child or ten. Chinese culture is very different from American culture, especially in that children are expected to provide and care for their parents in their old age.
 

I agree with everything @Corraleno said plus I think helicopter and over involved parents who try to constantly shield their children from natural consequences whether it’s poor grades, being bored, not getting a job/team/award they wanted, etc. that lots of kids just don’t have much experience dealing with failure. Also, most kids are so hyper scheduled and hyper monitored (constant phone, text, etc. contact with parents) these days that many don’t really know how to function in an appropriate, mature and independent way in the real world.

[busymama7]

I have 9 kids ages almost 10-27.  I have discovered by accident that *most* but not all parents whose oldest kid is around 14 have no idea how to parent and their children are not fun at all to be around. I've seen a wide variety of things over the years of raising my large family and am in a religious community that has larger than average families and I've homeschooled for going on 21 years and homeschoolers also tend to have slightly larger families. I'm saying this to say I've been around a lot of kids. And I expect kids to act like kids.  I expect fits etc. But I have never seen anything like I'm seeing now. 8-10 year olds being coddled for throwing a screaming, hysterical fit over dumb stuff like the tv being turned on while they were in the bathroom and missing a few mins of a movie they've seen many times.  They are not corrected for this behavior but rather consoled and often given in to.  

It's *weird* and I was an attached parent who leaned gentle parent. BUT I corrected bad behavior. I didn't encourage it.  It's just strange. 

[Ausmumof3]

I think there’s a distinct generation divide and it kicks in about when iPads became common for kids. That’s correlation not causation because I’ve noticed even in non iPad screen families. I have no idea what it is but my oldest two are 15+ and my youngest is 12 and families with kids my youngest age and down are totally different to those around my older kids ages. That said we still have some great friends and it’s not all… but there’s definitely a change.

[Rosie_0801]

19 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think there’s a distinct generation divide and it kicks in about when iPads became common for kids.

Well, the internet seems to be full of us v them generation vids, and that has to influence people's thinking.

My personal favourite is a woman making vids complaining about her boomer parents, as if a nice young lady in what looks to be her early 20's even has boomer parents. She probably doesn't even have boomer grandparents.

[Pawz4me]

3 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Well, the internet seems to be full of us v them generation vids, and that has to influence people's thinking.

My personal favourite is a woman making vids complaining about her boomer parents, as if a nice young lady in what looks to be her early 20's even has boomer parents. She probably doesn't even have boomer grandparents.

My youngest is 25 and I'm a Boomer. There are Boomers slightly younger than me, and I wasn't all that old when I had youngest DS. So yes, it's entirely possible for a Boomer to have an early-20's kid. I think people often forget what a vast range the Boomers cover. Goodness, we haven't even thought about grandkids yet, and if we have any we hope it's years down the road!

I totally agree that there's way too much us versus them as far as the "generations" go. It's just another way to divide people, or to be tribal or whatever. And of course nowadays (and for quite a few years now) there's been money to be made and fame to be had by bashing Boomers.

[Hyacinth]

4 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Well, the internet seems to be full of us v them generation vids, and that has to influence people's thinking.

I see a lot of these lately. Young adults lamenting the trauma caused by their awful parents and their decision to go no contact. Or the need to set harsh boundaries with the in laws who might be having a hard time navigating the new family structure. 

Of course, some people ARE toxic and these boundaries and even no-contact decisions are vital to everyone’s well-being in those cases.

But I can’t help wondering if many of the people watching and hearting and sharing these videos and memes would be better off having the hard conversations, working on compromises, and, I don’t know, just plain giving some grace for the older generation’s imperfections.

To the point of this thread, the vibe of these messages is that every relationship (marriage, friendships, neighbors, parents, in-laws) is about what you can get, how you feel, and your comfort. There’s little to no room for extending grace, mercy, love, patience, empathy, acceptance, or even tolerance. Me, me, and more me. 

[HomeAgain]

13 hours ago, Ottakee said:

I remember reading a book once on the tearing down and then rebuilding of some housing projects and how that disrupted the neighborhood so much and that the new ones didn’t have front porches or gathering spaces so they lost that neighbor connection.

We felt this happen at our last home.  New builds. The houses were designed so that the garages faced the left of every one and the neighborhood was not walkable. What this meant was that people would drive home, into their garage, and never see their neighbors.  They'd let their children play in the shade of the garage/driveway, but you couldn't see if your friends were home in their driveway.  The mailbox was a collection point at the end of the block that people drove up to.  The experience ended up being so isolating that it was one of our factors in finding a home when we moved. We either needed a house that was community friendly or an apartment building with common areas and doors that faced each other.  It worked out to buy an older home.  My street now has 5 houses that all face each other in a circle.  We have a group chat for the adults and the kids all play in a grassy green area between us.  I know my neighbors, they know us.  We help each other.  It's not quite the same as when I grew up in a small town, but we just couldn't live like we did in our last place.  We got very lucky here. 

[Indigo Blue]

50 minutes ago, Hyacinth said:

I see a lot of these lately. Young adults lamenting the trauma caused by their awful parents and their decision to go no contact. Or the need to set harsh boundaries with the in laws who might be having a hard time navigating the new family structure. 

Of course, some people ARE toxic and these boundaries and even no-contact decisions are vital to everyone’s well-being in those cases.

But I can’t help wondering if many of the people watching and hearting and sharing these videos and memes would be better off having the hard conversations, working on compromises, and, I don’t know, just plain giving some grace for the older generation’s imperfections.

To the point of this thread, the vibe of these messages is that every relationship (marriage, friendships, neighbors, parents, in-laws) is about what you can get, how you feel, and your comfort. There’s little to no room for extending grace, mercy, love, patience, empathy, acceptance, or even tolerance. Me, me, and more me. 

I agree with this, yet as I, myself, feel that I had/have a completely messed up family. 
 

There are so many people who truly need to set boundaries, but, at the same time, the new “trend” of blaming everyone but yourself and going no contact when, actually, your family is healthy enough to work through differences has muddied the waters for all. 
 

As an aside, (and slightly related) I was recently made aware of a counselor that lives close to me who counsels suicidal teens. She was asked if she works with adult people regarding their childhood trauma. Her response was no, I don’t. “I think adults shouldn’t be upset over things that happened thirty years ago. It’s time to get over it and move on at that point”. 
 

Well, at least some of those poor teens are surely suffering because of trauma being inflicted in their home. I can’t imagine that they will be over it as adults. What an ignorant and uninformed counselor. 
 

I have a family member who had such difficulty as a teen who is now doing much better. My toxic mother is adamant that his difficulties stemmed from “being bullied at school because he’s Asian” even though the person has never indicated any such thing. The truth is this person has much to be traumatized from in their home life because I have seen these things with my own eyes. My mom doesn’t want to admit it could possibly be from family (generational) trauma, that also includes and implicates her. 
 

Anyway, I see your point, and I agree. Sorry it turned into a rant. 

Edited July 29 by Indigo Blue
Wanted to include another detail

[alisoncooks]

14 hours ago, SKL said:

My 17yos are of the opinion that kids these days, from middle school on down, are almost completely undisciplined.  As in, they don't think they should have to listen to teachers / coaches etc. unless they want to.  They will out and say, "I don't have to listen to you."

I don't know, I don't really spend much time with those age groups any more.  Maybe my kids have precocious "get off my lawn" syndrome.

Mine are 16 and 18, and they definitely have that “get off my lawn” syndrome, lol.  They’ve worked several kid camps this summer and have come home, appalled, by the behavior they’ve seen. TBH, it’s given me a little hope for how they’ll raise their future children.  

[Bambam]

About 12 years ago, our homeschool group went on a field trip (limited to teens) to a local major company place of business for a tour - to learn about what they did, what different kind of employees did, etc. At the end, they fed us lunch and talked about scholarships and employment opportunities there.  They offered a very nice scholarship and then offered the winners a summer intern job at this site after they had completed the first year of college. They came out and said they wanted to know four things A. Would the person show up daily at work. B. Would the person show up on time C. Would the person actually do work D. Would the person get along with their co-workers.  
And I'm over there like ??? Shouldn't those things be a given? But apparently not. 
I'd sorta like to go on that field trip again and see what that final talk is like now, but unfortunately, no teens! 

[fairfarmhand]

As far as parenting...

IMHO many younger parents wanted to move away from punitive, harsh parenting but had nothing good to replace it with. They are ignorant of age appropriate parenting (Like you treat a tantruming toddler completely different from an 8 year old who is just mad they're not getting their way) They don't understand that you can be firm and kind, you can be stern and serious without being mean. They don't get that kids crave boundaries and need the adults to be  a firm place they can bounce off of. And a kid is NOT An adult. You can't put adult decisions on them. It's actually unfair to do that.

What we're asking of kids is not appropriate right now and many parents have no clue how to dial that back. Kids are exposed to too many adult things by way of the internet and they SEEM sophisticated and adultish, but they're really just kids because their brains aren't developed yet. I also think that kids are also just physically worn out.  Kids need lots of sleep. If you have them in sports, because of the insanity that sports has become, they're not getting that.  Or they're up late staring at a screen. They're not getting nutritious food by and large.  They're not meant to sit quietly in a chair for 7 hours a day. 

So for parenting, there's lots of things.

As far as people in general, screen time makes folks self focused. They watch videos that encourage them to thikn about feeeeelingsssss. Constantly. There's so much "I've got a chip on my shoulder" content out there. People don't consider they their behaviors impact others.

Remember back when we had to take turns listeening to the radio station of our choice in the car? We don't have to do that thanks to cell phones and earphones. Remember when the family had to fight it out to watch a movie/TV show each evening? There would be compromises and taking turns. That doesn't have to happen any more because anyone with a phone or laptop can watch what they like. 

[fairfarmhand]

3 minutes ago, Bambam said:

About 12 years ago, our homeschool group went on a field trip (limited to teens) to a local major company place of business for a tour - to learn about what they did, what different kind of employees did, etc. At the end, they fed us lunch and talked about scholarships and employment opportunities there.  They offered a very nice scholarship and then offered the winners a summer intern job at this site after they had completed the first year of college. They came out and said they wanted to know four things A. Would the person show up daily at work. B. Would the person show up on time C. Would the person actually do work D. Would the person get along with their co-workers.  
And I'm over there like ??? Shouldn't those things be a given? But apparently not. 
I'd sorta like to go on that field trip again and see what that final talk is like now, but unfortunately, no teens! 

My dh helps with hiring. They want attitude (good) and work ethic before anything else. Aptitude they can train for. They also have a hard time just finding people who will pass a drug screening for their entry level (still good with excellent futures and benefits) jobs.

[LinRTX]

6 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

nice young lady in what looks to be her early 20's even has boomer parents

Well, I found this very funny, especially since we are boomer parents and our youngest just turned 24 (and looks even younger). But I know she is not making videos complaining. 

[marbel]

10 minutes ago, LinRTX said:

Well, I found this very funny, especially since we are boomer parents and our youngest just turned 24 (and looks even younger). But I know she is not making videos complaining. 

👋 Boomer parent of a 25-year-old here! 💗 

[wintermom]

I think observing behaviour in others that seems as if they feel entitled can possibly open up the door for misunderstanding - there is a possibility that the demeaner is a reflection of a slightly different cultural context and a method of 'fitting in' or having to behave a certain way to not look different.

When I lived in Norway in the early 1990s, I got a sense that most of the young adults I met in my classes had an attitude of entitlement. I had come to Norway directly from a big university in Canada where I was a blip in a big institutional machine. I was a nobody. I went to Norway and as a Canadian I was definitely a nobody. Had I been American, it would have been far more exciting to most of the people I met as most of them watched US TV, listened to US music, or had dreams of travelling in the US. Most of the young Norwegians came from small families, were financially secure, and through their nurturing parentling and school system, they were used to being 'somebody of value' from a very young age. 

However, after living in Norway and getting to know the young generation better, I learned that they have all the same fears, self-confidence issues, mental health issues, stuggles to find work, etc. that most people in the western world have. The superficial behaviours that seemed like entitlement were just their learned behaviours from their time in school and attention from their parents. They knew full well that they'd have to struggle like everyone else to make it in the world. Even the Royal family faced struggles and seemed more 'real' after living in the country for a few years. 

Edited July 29 by wintermom

[Jaybee]

7 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Well, the internet seems to be full of us v them generation vids, and that has to influence people's thinking.

My personal favourite is a woman making vids complaining about her boomer parents, as if a nice young lady in what looks to be her early 20's even has boomer parents. She probably doesn't even have boomer grandparents.

Ummmm...I'm a boomer and have two kids in their early 20s.😬

[Soror]

In my job, I worked a lot with parents that lacked parenting skills. Way too many of the younger parents think "iPad" kid is a compliment. As others mentioned, they have no concept of age-appropriate expectations. They stick the kid on a device and they are zombies and that makes things easy. So, when the kid isn't on a device they don't know what to do with them. Part of the problem is that they are on the devices so much to begin with that their behavior and sleep and everything else is screwed up. Then you have parents on devices not paying attention to the kids and wanting them to leave them alone. So, many times toddlers are doing perfectly normal toddler behavior but the parents don't want to deal with it so they give them a device. Toddlers and young kids are a lot of work and a lot of hands-on parenting. Add to that the kids do not get the activity they need. There are overblown concerns on the parent's end about dangers. There are concerns with charges of neglect for what would have been normal independence a couple of decades ago. We have become accustomed to air conditioning. There are more kids on devices and less outside to play with, even if they do go out (and community changes that exacerbated all of these).

100% on gentle parenting= no parent these days- I've said that before on this forum multiple times.

Just a few weeks ago we were at an event and the kids went to play on the playground there was a kid there who was around 5-6 years old throwing rocks. One parent standing right beside her (her parent wasn't present), but not saying or doing anything. I came up and clapped my hands for attention and used my stern Mom voice and told her that was unacceptable and to stop right now. She stopped and calmed down. Afterwards, my kids told me that the other parent had told her to stop but she didn't listen and she just gave up. The kids say it is the same with her kid, she lets him do all kinds of things and goes on about being a gentle parent (to be fair her parents were overly punitive and harsh but there is a middle ground). I don't yell. I hate yelling. I do not hit. However, that doesn't mean there aren't behavior expectations and rules.

re: dogs in stores I see this more in older people, not in younger ones

Edited July 29 by Soror

[TechWife]

3 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

…

But I can’t help wondering if many of the people watching and hearting and sharing these videos and memes would be better off having the hard conversations, working on compromises, and, I don’t know, just plain giving some grace for the older generation’s imperfections.

…

One of the things about social media that  isn’t often discussed is the false sense of intimacy it creates. People feel seen & heard based on how many people watch their videos. People watching begin to think they know someone based on a limited amount of selected information. I think this has led to a lack of discernment, not just about sharing intimate details about your life, but about what is typical and what is not. 
It is typical for teens & very young adults to realize how they were/are being parented affects them. It is typical to recognize parental flaws. It is typical to struggle with normal developmental stages and life events. 
When a “drama queen” posts about typical experiences in an exaggerated fashion, then it kind of feeds the fire, so to speak. Typical gets blown out of proportion. Previously, people would have no more than a handful of friends that they might confide in. But more importantly, they would live everyday life together, doing much more together than hearing one another’s confidences. The “one another” aspect is important for learning what is typical, even when it seems like it isn’t, because situations and emotions are new to the teens experiencing them. It really helps to be in community and realize you aren’t alone, others are experiencing the same things, realizing the same things, feeling the same things. 
Community is really important, and we need embodied community to learn about ourselves, about others, and how to live life well together. 

Edited July 29 by TechWife

[saraha]

For me, as a kid who grew up in trailer parks in the 80s which was basically the Wild West of kiddom, I didn’t have an example of parenting done well, and with all I had seen, experienced, survived, and knew kids not as lucky as us, knew one thing for sure, my kids were never leaving my sight. I was absolutely a helicopter parent. But it was reactionary.  I did not want my kids to live through some of the situations I found myself and my younger siblings in that were directly caused by lack of supervision. I do not feel like going through those experiences made me a better/smarter/tougher/savvy adult, except it taught me what to look out for to prevent it for others, and made me distrustful and paranoid about the world.

I homeschooled my kids as a reaction to my school years. I married a farmer so my kids could grow up free from the pressures and dangers of the “neighborhood”. We didn’t do sleepovers that weren’t cousins so that my kids never had to be scared of someone’s dad walking around in his underwear in the middle of the night “checking on us”.  My parenting style was intentional, engaged and flawed. But I didn’t devise this parenting style in a vacuum. Parents who spend so much energy smoothing their kids lives out, entitling them, aren’t doing it in a vacuum either. They are reacting or “correcting” something from their childhood.

I see a lot of reels on Facebook were generation x-ers are scoffing and dismissive of the following generations and I don’t understand them. Why do they scoff and make fun rather than feel ashamed or responsible? Why do they glorify the crazy way some of us grew up? The sentiment “Well I survived, what’s wrong with you that you want it differently?” Doesn’t make sense to me at all, and blaming people younger than myself would say a lot more about me I would think than the kids I’m pointing out. 
Now don’t get me wrong, having to deal with people’s entitlement is 100% frustrating, no matter how old they are because we all know olders that feel entitled to all kinds of stuff, but grace and patience coupled with hard boundaries and consequences are the way I hope I respond. My young adults working in food service and retail will tell you, it’s not young people that mistreat them and have outsized expectations to perceived slights, it’s people old enough to know better, and in their customer service jobs have learned a level of grace and patience backed up by strong backbones.

Parenting styles and their outcomes change generation to generation as each successive generation tries to do better. The trouble is, we don’t see those results for like 20 years or more, and by then it’s too late to course correct. I’m sorry that the outcome here is now this sense of entitlement, and I’m sorry for all of you dealing with an increased amount of it. Humans have an uncanny ability to both be sympathetic and empathetic and incredibly selfish and self centered at the same time.

[saraha]

50 minutes ago, Soror said:

As others mentioned, they have no concept of age-appropriate expectations. They stick the kid on a device and they are zombies and that makes things easy. So, when the kid isn't on a device they don't know what to do with them. Part of the problem is that they are on the devices so much to begin with that their behavior and sleep and everything else is screwed up. Then you have parents on devices not paying attention to the kids and wanting them to leave them alone. So, many times toddlers are doing perfectly normal toddler behavior but the parents don't want to deal with it so they give them a device.

This accurately describes my mom and friends moms parenting in the 80s except instead of screens it was tv

[pinball]

You know when people get reallllly mad…when you bring your dog to the Kitty Café

[SKL]

I wonder if this is somewhat related to the importance some put on their kids "winning."

I loved that my kids were in sports, but they were not incredibly athletic.  Their teams would win some and lose some.  I thought both experiences were equally good and important.  I recall some other parents seeming annoyed that I celebrated a "good game" regardless of whether we won or lost.

I have facebook friends who go on and on about how amazing their kids are in sports and academics.  Even though these kids are now high school seniors / college freshmen, apparently this never gets old.  Even on birthdays, "you have always been a straight A student, we love you so much."  It makes me wonder if the kids feel like they need documented achievements in order to be loved or accepted.  Maybe these kids are just amazing all-rounders, or maybe they are giving up some part of youth in order to keep those straight As & win those medals.

And yes, the loss of free-ranging plays a part, because when our kids are under constant supervision, they don't feel free to try and fail as much.  They look to be entertained, and we give them something "enriching" to do ... usually something within their ability level, so they don't experience the important cycle of try - fail - try - fail again - think - tweak the experiment - try again - fail - think, tweak, try - learn.

As for community - IME neighborhood kids are few and far between.  The ones who aren't in organized activities are also not allowed to play in the neighborhood.  This is one of the reasons I put my kids in activities - because that was where the kids were.

One thing I liked about my kids' school was that its aftercare program was pretty old-fashioned.  They still played all the neighborhood games we played as kids ... taught to the little kids by the older ones.  There wasn't much structure.  The lady in charge was about 100 years old and walked with a cane, so she wasn't micromanaging things.  And, surprise, the place wasn't rife with bullying or violence.

And I still think family size is a factor too.  I was the 3rd of 6 kids in a working class family.  What chance did I have to feel entitled?  I rarely asked for anything, because I didn't enjoy hearing "NO."  Everything was a compromise, from who got to sit on an actual seat, to which show we watched after school, to whose turn it was to change the baby's diaper.  (I remember thinking my brothers were damn entitled for taking up more space in the car's backseat for anatomical reasons.)  The last time my folks gave me spending money, I was 10yo (and it was 50c/week).  "Entitlement" never had a chance.  😛

My kids won't benefit from my un-entitled upbringing.  😛  They benefit materially from being raised by a mom who was already financially secure.  Their aunties also spoiled them a lot.  But since puberty, they've also had to learn how to live with challenging people.  And their jobs have helped them to see the other side of many aspects of life (and they appreciate that).  Hopefully it will all even out in the long run.  We'll see.

[SKL]

54 minutes ago, saraha said:

My young adults working in food service and retail will tell you, it’s not young people that mistreat them and have outsized expectations to perceived slights, it’s people old enough to know better, and in their customer service jobs have learned a level of grace and patience backed up by strong backbones.

Yes, and to be clear, my OP wasn't meant to be age specific.  The dog-in-the-store people are often older, and the employee I referenced is around my age.  Though she might just be an outlier vs. a sign of the times.

[SKL]

57 minutes ago, saraha said:

For me, as a kid who grew up in trailer parks in the 80s which was basically the Wild West of kiddom, I didn’t have an example of parenting done well, and with all I had seen, experienced, survived, and knew kids not as lucky as us, knew one thing for sure, my kids were never leaving my sight. I was absolutely a helicopter parent. But it was reactionary.  I did not want my kids to live through some of the situations I found myself and my younger siblings in that were directly caused by lack of supervision. I do not feel like going through those experiences made me a better/smarter/tougher/savvy adult, except it taught me what to look out for to prevent it for others, and made me distrustful and paranoid about the world.

Yes, I too had some experiences that I didn't want my kids to experience.  I drilled into their head that they are not ever allowed to go into anyone's car, house, or backyard unless I gave explicit permission in advance.  They were also to inform me where they were going in case I needed to go look for them.  But their auntie used to say, in their presence, "how can you let them walk to the park, they could be kidnapped!"  So my kids were more afraid of the world than I wanted them to be.

One thing I didn't want my kids to experience was hearing "no" and "don't" all the time.  So I would try to choose a positive way to correct or defer.  "Mom, can I get a tattoo?"  "YES, after you're 18, if you earn the money to pay for it."  😛

[saraha]

Not wanting to say no was a big reason I was anxious to raise children on a farm. I can’t say no to things that aren’t a possibility anyway. And no arguements about “where have you been?!?” Because there was nowhere on our or their grandads place they were not allowed to go.

[Clemsondana]

I also wonder if fewer people with kids, or people being unaccustomed to kids being present, affects how we all interact with kids.  When mine were little, we lived across the country from family, spouse traveled a lot, and I was in a church where many of the people were grandparent-aged.  I did my best to keep the kiddos well-behaved, and they were incredibly helpful.  If there was a meeting or activity, they'd encourage me to come and then, if the kids were willing, they would help.  I remember one lady handing my kids the M&Ms out of the scoop of snack mix she'd put on a plate.  If a kid wandered over to one during the meeting, they'd pull the kid onto their lap, or point to a spot beside them where the kid could sit on the floor.  My kids viewed them as extended family.  I also remember one of the older ladies bending over and asking my 3 year old to please walk in the crowded room because if an older person didn't see them and tripped they could get hurt.  It was a wonderful environment that I am still thankful for, more than a decade after we moved. 

While I don't expect this level of interaction from strangers, I know that these people would also respond similarly to kids in public, and they'd respond to moms who looked overwhelmed with words of encouragement.  This is completely different from the experience of a friend.  She had a toddler who wouldn't quit screaming in the car.  She did what I also did several times - she said that it wasn't safe for her to drive while kid was screaming, so she'd pull over and wait until kid could calm down and stop.  She stood beside the car with the door open so that she could communicate with the kid, who was not in any danger.  Somebody called the police on her.  I think some fraction of parents are raising their kids with this sort of thing in their minds.  While I'm all in favor of watching out for kids, if I saw something and was concerned I'd ask 'Is everything OK?' before I'd call the police.  

Differences like these make me wonder if we are bringing these situations on ourselves by how we as a society interact with families and kids.  Do parents give in just to keep them quiet and avoid the judgement of others?  Are people so quick to involve police or say 'abuse' that parents are afraid to say no (and, this is only in some situations, because I know in others actual abuse is ignored)?  Do kids spend so much time on screen that they've come to see bad behavior as normal?  I had to ban some of the Disney tween shows because kid was starting to mimic the bad attitude.  I've had good luck with raising my kids in something of a bubble of likeminded-enough people.  In our case, I think sports and academic competition help, too, since there is very much an attitude of 'learn to win and lose gracefully, be on time, do the work of practice when nobody is watching, and don't let your teammates down by not trying'.  Those are all great life skills.  The kids also have to learn teamwork and at least some degree of conflict resolution.  With less free play in groups, kids don't learn to do that on their own, to everybody's detriment.  

And, as I posted in the college forum, it's been fascinating to watch the discussion on the facebook group for my kid's entering freshman college class.  I love that people can get practical info - What is the best way to get from the airport to campus?  Are there towel hooks in the bathroom of the suite-style rooms or do we need to bring over-the-door hooks?  But, I'm seeing parenting extremes.  There is one group that says that they bought sheets, towels, and an air purifier and their kids can figure out anything else that they need.  There are also parents asking if there are others in their home location with kids in the same major so that they can get them together before move-in.  Surely there is some middle ground between 'My kid will figure out what they need when they go to do something and don't have what they need' and arranging playdates for people who have already graduated from college.  I feel like there is too much parenting at the extremes, which probably isn't good at any age for most people.  

[Frances]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

I wonder if this is somewhat related to the importance some put on their kids "winning."

I loved that my kids were in sports, but they were not incredibly athletic.  Their teams would win some and lose some.  I thought both experiences were equally good and important.  I recall some other parents seeming annoyed that I celebrated a "good game" regardless of whether we won or lost.

I have facebook friends who go on and on about how amazing their kids are in sports and academics.  Even though these kids are now high school seniors / college freshmen, apparently this never gets old.  Even on birthdays, "you have always been a straight A student, we love you so much."  It makes me wonder if the kids feel like they need documented achievements in order to be loved or accepted.  Maybe these kids are just amazing all-rounders, or maybe they are giving up some part of youth in order to keep those straight As & win those medals.

And yes, the loss of free-ranging plays a part, because when our kids are under constant supervision, they don't feel free to try and fail as much.  They look to be entertained, and we give them something "enriching" to do ... usually something within their ability level, so they don't experience the important cycle of try - fail - try - fail again - think - tweak the experiment - try again - fail - think, tweak, try - learn.

As for community - IME neighborhood kids are few and far between.  The ones who aren't in organized activities are also not allowed to play in the neighborhood.  This is one of the reasons I put my kids in activities - because that was where the kids were.

One thing I liked about my kids' school was that its aftercare program was pretty old-fashioned.  They still played all the neighborhood games we played as kids ... taught to the little kids by the older ones.  There wasn't much structure.  The lady in charge was about 100 years old and walked with a cane, so she wasn't micromanaging things.  And, surprise, the place wasn't rife with bullying or violence.

And I still think family size is a factor too.  I was the 3rd of 6 kids in a working class family.  What chance did I have to feel entitled?  I rarely asked for anything, because I didn't enjoy hearing "NO."  Everything was a compromise, from who got to sit on an actual seat, to which show we watched after school, to whose turn it was to change the baby's diaper.  (I remember thinking my brothers were damn entitled for taking up more space in the car's backseat for anatomical reasons.)  The last time my folks gave me spending money, I was 10yo (and it was 50c/week).  "Entitlement" never had a chance.  😛

My kids won't benefit from my un-entitled upbringing.  😛  They benefit materially from being raised by a mom who was already financially secure.  Their aunties also spoiled them a lot.  But since puberty, they've also had to learn how to live with challenging people.  And their jobs have helped them to see the other side of many aspects of life (and they appreciate that).  Hopefully it will all even out in the long run.  We'll see.

I agree with everything you say here, except the part about family size. I know plenty of entitled young adults who had multiple siblings. And my younger sister most definitely fits the description, nothing was ever enough for her. Some came from well off families with lots of resources, and others, like MFO, did not. In fact, I would say because my sister felt deprived due to having the same type of childhood you describe is a big part of what feeds her sense of entitlement. My other siblings and I have a very different view of things, though.
 

My son and two of my nieces are only children and I think entitled is just about the last word anyone would use to describe them. It is possible to raise an only child, even when you are upper middle class, without them ending up entitled, ungrateful, and oblivious to their privilege. Yes, it takes mindful work, but it is possible.

[Terabith]

Our society has become dramatically more unfriendly towards children even in the last 10-15 years.  When my kids were little, it was easy for us to take them to play in play spaces in fast food restaurants and the mall, at parks and playgrounds, and we were welcomed with open arms taking our children into church.  San Antonio especially was extremely child friendly.  We had a waitress offer to hold our baby while we ate when it was very slow at Denny's.  Nobody thought twice about kids in restaurants or on planes.  The child free movement has come to mean "I want to exist in a world where children do not."  There's an expectation that children SHOULD NOT EXIST in public.  Reddit is full of people calling for them not to allowed in restaurants or on airplanes.  Child free weddings are the norm.  There is an expectation that kids should only be at home or school and never in public.  

I am so glad that I don't have small children in the current ethos, to be honest.  

I actually wanted a free range childhood for my kids, but it was pretty much impossible for me to arrange that because kids want to be where other kids were, and there simply weren't kids playing in neighborhoods.  Like @SKL, my kids did more activities early on than I would really have preferred, because that was where the kids were.  We did get lucky in that my in laws' neighborhood, there was much more of a free range kid environment, and while my kids were never close with most of the neighbor kids, as adults now, their best memories are of being alone with other kids there, playing cops and robbers and exploring the drainage tunnels.  I think kids spending time in free play, figuring out things on their own and with other kids, with very light adult supervision and intervention, is important to development, and I think the lack of both free play and independence is hindering the development of kids and contributing to the anxiety epidemic.  

Edited July 29 by Terabith

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I think kids spending time in free play, figuring out things on their own and with other kids, with very light adult supervision and intervention, is important to development, and I think the lack of both free play and independence is hindering the development of kids and contributing to the anxiety epidemic.  

I think there is research showing an inverse relationship between anxiety and free[er] range parenting.

And you're right, I've spent much of the past 17 years manufacturing or purchasing little bits of developmentally appropriate childhood.  And I don't think this reality is likely to change for our kids' kids.  Though, there are small movements trying to point in that direction.

[GracieJane]

The older I get, the more I see the Adam/Eve dynamic as the cause of most modern miseries: “the snake lied to me, so I did x” “the woman You gave me did x so I did y”. Among parents I know, it’s almost reflexive to blame the child’s teacher/diagnosis/poor sleep/sugar/everything-under-the-sun, before taking a pause and considering how they or their child contribute to the issue. Trust me, I literally catch myself all the time about to blame *anything but myself* for behavior failures in work, school, marriage or my children. But it’s totally freeing when you finally accept even if you have only 1% of the blame in any given problem, *you can actually solve that* and make it at least 1% better (and usually it ends up much better than you anticipate).

Sorry for the long text, I just get super excited  people working hard to solve their own problems!

[teachermom2834]

3 minutes ago, GracieJane said:

The older I get, the more I see the Adam/Eve dynamic as the cause of most modern miseries: “the snake lied to me, so I did x” “the woman You gave me did x so I did y”. Among parents I know, it’s almost reflexive to blame the child’s teacher/diagnosis/poor sleep/sugar/everything-under-the-sun, before taking a pause and considering how they or their child contribute to the issue. Trust me, I literally catch myself all the time about to blame *anything but myself* for behavior failures in work, school, marriage or my children. But it’s totally freeing when you finally accept even if you have only 1% of the blame in any given problem, *you can actually solve that* and make it at least 1% better (and usually it ends up much better than you anticipate).

Sorry for the long text, I just get super excited  people working hard to solve their own problems!

Yeah along those lines I have even found other people not letting me put any responsibility on my own child for situations she may be in. I think my dd is awesome but in any pickle she may find herself in I start with what she might have done to contribute to the situation (because that is the part we can most easily solve and avoid next time) yet when addressing situation with other adults and I try to own my dd’s even partial responsibility it pains other people to allow that even a little. It’s immediately “that’s not her fault blah blah blah” 

Even if it isn’t her fault per se there is nearly always some agency she has to take responsibility and make things better even if the fault is 90% someone else’s.

[SKL]

1 minute ago, GracieJane said:

The older I get, the more I see the Adam/Eve dynamic as the cause of most modern miseries: “the snake lied to me, so I did x” “the woman You gave me did x so I did y”. Among parents I know, it’s almost reflexive to blame the child’s teacher/diagnosis/poor sleep/sugar/everything-under-the-sun, before taking a pause and considering how they or their child contribute to the issue. Trust me, I literally catch myself all the time about to blame *anything but myself* for behavior failures in work, school, marriage or my children. But it’s totally freeing when you finally accept even if you have only 1% of the blame in any given problem, *you can actually solve that* and make it at least 1% better (and usually it ends up much better than you anticipate).

Sorry for the long text, I just get super excited  people working hard to solve their own problems!

I find myself realizing my mistakes after I have quiet time to reflect, rather than in the moment.  I try to learn from them for the future.

I have no problem calling out my kids' mistakes, but that is somewhat frowned upon these days.  You're only supposed to say uplifting things, even when a kid is being violent.  Total aside, but this is a thing with modern dog training too.  "Positive reinforcement only."  It's a nice thought but it isn't always enough.

My kids may or may not have developmental "excuses," but my usual comment in the moment has been "we're working on that," which is true.  I've often been frustrated and embarrassed with their behavior.  Being a mom has taught me that if another's child is annoying me, the child's mom probably feels 100x worse than I do.  At least that's what I choose to believe.  🙂