Weird question about paying landscaper

[EKS]

We are looking to hire a landscaper to do some initial planting and then maintenance of the garden.  This person is not licensed or insured, which brings up one set of issues (that I understand and have mostly resolved in my own mind).  But just today she tells me that for payment she would prefer that I either send a cashier's check or make a personal check out to a family member (with a different last name, don't know if that's relevant or not).

ETA: The person I'd be making the check out to is not involved in the business.

What's your take on this?

Edited June 6 by EKS

[Katy]

She’s had financial trouble and either cannot put money in the bank because it would be seized, or perhaps she’s committing some sort of fraud. Unemployment, workmen’s comp, insurance fraud, etc. 

A less likely scenario is that she’s in hiding for some reason like domestic violence. 

[Pawz4me]

My gut reaction is that I'd find someone else.

But I'm interested in what other people think.

[EKS]

2 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

My gut reaction is that I'd find someone else.

That's my reaction too.  But I was wondering if I was being too harsh.

[Forget-Me-Not]

I would find someone else. Get someone bonded and insured with a legit business. If this person makes a mistake or does a poor job you will have no recourse. 

[TechWife]

I would find someone else. The insurance issue is pretty big for me, as is needing cash payment. 

[fraidycat]

My take: do not hire this person. Too many red flags and no insurance if they wreck your stuff.

[TheReader]

What they said. 

It sounds like she doesn't have a bank account of her own, &/or doesn't want to have to use her bank account to cash the check.  I'm drawing a blank on valid reasons that a business owner wouldn't have a bank account, which would make me prefer to cancel that appt and work with someone else. 

[Tap]

Will they not take cash? If not, then I would wonder if she was being trafficked or in a forced labor situation. 

I would not hire someone to use tools in my yard without their own insurance.  There is definitely something illegal going on, and I wouldn't want to be in the middle of it. 

[EKS]

1 minute ago, Tap said:

Will they not take cash?

Yes, she will take cash, but that is not an option for us because the payment needs to be mailed.  

[Martha in GA]

Trying to avoid paying taxes?

[Tap]

I know some people have a hard time getting a bank account due to previous legal issues or lack of legal ID. They may be having someone else handle this for them so they can still take payment. 

 

Personally I would avoid them due to them not having a legal business, but I know you said you resolved that. 

[Faith-manor]

This is common here because the locals do not want to pay taxes. They also don't want to pay for insurance, and then if they get hurt on your property, hit up your homeowner policy. 

It is a bad situation for you. 

[QueenCat]

35 minutes ago, EKS said:

Yes, she will take cash, but that is not an option for us because the payment needs to be mailed.  

She won't let you hand it to her when she's finished the job? That's even more red flags.

[EKS]

2 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

She won't let you hand it to her when she's finished the job?

No, the mailing thing is due to our situation, nothing to do with her.  Sorry, I should have mentioned that!

Edited June 6 by EKS

[pinball]

3 hours ago, EKS said:

We are looking to hire a landscaper to do some initial planting and then maintenance of the garden.  This person is not licensed or insured, which brings up one set of issues (that I understand and have mostly resolved in my own mind).  But just today she tells me that for payment she would prefer that I either send a cashier's check or make a personal check out to a family member (with a different last name, don't know if that's relevant or not).

ETA: The person I'd be making the check out to is not involved in the business.

What's your take on this?

Id ask her.

Say you like her work or whatever the reason is you want to hire her but want to know what’s up with the unusual payment request.

[Eos]

3 hours ago, EKS said:

We are looking to hire a landscaper to do some initial planting and then maintenance of the garden.  This person is not licensed or insured, which brings up one set of issues (that I understand and have mostly resolved in my own mind).  But just today she tells me that for payment she would prefer that I either send a cashier's check or make a personal check out to a family member (with a different last name, don't know if that's relevant or not).

ETA: The person I'd be making the check out to is not involved in the business.

What's your take on this?

Wants to get paid under the table? Doesn't want to pay taxes or make too much on paper, possibly to do with losing her health insurance is my take.  Not a red flag to me personally, just someone who lives outside the legal world. She'll get more jobs and eventually need to come out into the open.

[Annie G]

I’ve been burned by enough contractors to be wary of red flags like this. 

[wintermom]

I'd probably just say that I need a paper trail for this work, so unless she (her business) can receive a cheque or e-transfer it's a no go. 

Edited June 6 by wintermom

[gardenmom5]

Zero paper trail.  I'd say that's a red flag there is (at least potential) fraud going on.  I would just fire her and move on.

eta: the not licensed, bonded, or insured  would give me pause. . . . 

Edited June 6 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, fraidycat said:

My take: do not hire this person. Too many red flags and no insurance if they wreck your stuff.

 And no insurance if *they* are injured so they go after your homeowner's insurance.

[KungFuPanda]

Get a real landscaper if you can’t afford to have it redone. The landscaper I worked for had insurance, workman’s comp for the laborers, and a year long guarantee for the plants (provided you watered them/no drought guarantees).  If something died, the crew replaced the plant at company expense. He did only take cash or checks, but the customer paid 10% down and the rest when the work was complete. A receipt was written for cash, but most paid by check. 
 

You should get a written estimate AND a method of payment that creates a paper trail. There ARE other landscapers

[SHP]

Is she an adult or a teenager? 

 

[EKS]

21 minutes ago, SHP said:

Is she an adult or a teenager? 

She is an older adult--as in age 60+.

[AmandaVT]

We ended up with a painter who had a similar request - we ended up either giving him cash or writing the check out to his family member. He had multiple aliases and apparently either didn't have a bank account or it was under a different name. He was cheap and happily removed our ancient, very stuck-on wallpaper and painted 2 1/2 rooms for us. Then his "old stabbing wound" started acting up, and he completely disappeared. He left a bunch of painting stuff here, too - ladder, vacuum, bright lamp. We tried getting in touch with him for a while but were not able to. He did a great job, though!

As long as you're not pre-paying and nothing really bad could happen (we figured the worst that would happen is he'd do a crappy job taking off the wallpaper, which we could fix), you may luck out. Unless her past comes back to haunt her - we haven't finished the half done room still and it's been more than a year. This summer....

[KungFuPanda]

If you go with this person’s payment methods, make sure she at least has insurance. 

[TheReader]

11 hours ago, EKS said:

She is an older adult--as in age 60+.

This makes me wonder if this is a gig she does on the side while trying to keep her social security benefits or income based rent or something. I don't know if other income can impact your actual SS benefits, but for ex my mom was living in an apt that was for 65+ and had rent based on their income (mostly folks on SS); if income was too high, she would no longer qualify for her apt at all, but any shift would also raise her rent. 

With her age, I'd lean more towards this being the issue than anything else, but it is still an odd situation and only you can determine the comfort level you have with it.  From the sounds of things, you aren't geographically in the same area as her (having to mail the check) which means also you won't be able to be around and present while she's doing the work, so I'd be more cautious, not less cautious, not being able to keep tabs so easily while the work is happening. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, TheReader said:

  I don't know if other income can impact your actual SS benefits,  

No.  SS benefits are based on what you paid into SS during your working life. (there is a minimum you must have paid into SS to receive benefits)  The more you paid, the more you get.

[EKS]

1 hour ago, TheReader said:

With her age, I'd lean more towards this being the issue than anything else...

Her age (in general) was another problem for me.  Both in terms of reliability (because she might retire, for example, or have health problems requiring taking time off) and in terms of being more easily injured on the job (which gets back to the insurance issue).

Someone above suggested that it could be she is trying to keep her income below a certain threshold for health insurance discounts.  If she is below 65 (so not eligible for Medicare yet), this is definitely a possibility.  Health insurance is ridiculously expensive between ages 50 and 64.

Edited June 7 by EKS

[wintermom]

9 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

No.  SS benefits are based on what you paid into SS during your working life. (there is a minimum you must have paid into SS to receive benefits)  The more you paid, the more you get.

Yes, but if you make too much money it can affect the amount of SS you receive once you are old enough to start receiving it. At least this is the set up in Canada.

Edited June 7 by wintermom

[gardenmom5]

8 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Yes, but if you make too much money it can affect the amount of SS you receive once you are old enough to start receiving it. At least this is the set up in Canada.

That's not how it works in the US.  SS- is not a welfare plan (that is affected by outside income.)

SS is based on how much a person paid into it during their working life.  It's not something given to every person (only people who worked and paid into it), so the amounts vary.  
Dh gets SS, and he still has the same business he's had for twenty years with an income that goes up every year.  Hasn't affected his SS benefits.

Edited June 7 by gardenmom5

[pinball]

Where are the people who are always speaking up for those who have to live on the edges of society and are just scraping by?

Like the hiring movers thread…so many excuses and accusations.

Another variation of NIMBY bc a worker wants cash or a check made out to another person…

[EKS]

8 minutes ago, pinball said:

Another variation of NIMBY bc a worker wants cash or a check made out to another person…

I honestly wouldn't mind paying her in cash (and will be doing so for the work she has done so far), but that isn't feasible long term.

[pinball]

4 minutes ago, EKS said:

I honestly wouldn't mind paying her in cash (and will be doing so for the work she has done so far), but that isn't feasible long term.

That’s good. In your shoes, I’d just write the check to the family member when cash isn’t an option anymore.

[TechWife]

39 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

No.  SS benefits are based on what you paid into SS during your working life. (there is a minimum you must have paid into SS to receive benefits)  The more you paid, the more you get.

The amount of money earned does affect SS benefits for a great number of people when combined with their age. It also affects eligibility for Medicaid, food assistance and housing assistance. 
 

“The earnings limit for workers who are younger than "full" retirement age (see Full Retirement Age Chart) will increase to $22,320. (We deduct $1 from benefits for each $2 earned over $22,320.)

The earnings limit for people reaching their “full” retirement age in 2024 will increase to $59,520. (We deduct $1 from benefits for each $3 earned over $59,520 until the month the worker turns “full” retirement age.)

There is no limit on earnings for workers who are "full" retirement age or older for the entire year.“

https://www.ssa.gov/cola/#:~:text=The earnings limit for workers,2024 will increase to %2459%2C520.
 

[EKS]

1 minute ago, pinball said:

That’s good. In your shoes, I’d just write the check to the family member when cash isn’t an option anymore.

Thank you for your input.

[gardenmom5]

15 minutes ago, pinball said:

Where are the people who are always speaking up for those who have to live on the edges of society and are just scraping by?

Like the hiring movers thread…so many excuses and accusations.

Another variation of NIMBY bc a worker wants cash or a check made out to another person…

That's not what this is.  There's the concern of fraud.  
there's the concern that is she's "injured" - and doesn't have insurance for her business, she'll go after your homeowner's policy.

do you say the same thing when people have judgments owed against them that will garnish their wages, so they work under the table to avoid paying those debts?

It is unknown why she's working this way, people are coming up with suppositions and running with them.

[gardenmom5]

3 minutes ago, TechWife said:

The amount of money earned does affect SS benefits for a great number of people when combined with their age. It also affects eligibility for Medicaid, food assistance and housing assistance. 
 

 

Those things are NOT SS.

[TechWife]

Just now, gardenmom5 said:

Those things are NOT SS.

I agree, hence the use of the word “also.”

 

[pinball]

38 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

That's not what this is.  There's the concern of fraud.  
there's the concern that is she's "injured" - and doesn't have insurance for her business, she'll go after your homeowner's policy.

do you say the same thing when people have judgments owed against them that will garnish their wages, so they work under the table to avoid paying those debts?

It is unknown why she's working this way, people are coming up with suppositions and running with them.

Sorry, I’m not buying all this about a woman nearly old enough to get the senior citizen’s discount at Denny’s who wants cash for planting some geraniums.

[Annie G]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

No.  SS benefits are based on what you paid into SS during your working life. (there is a minimum you must have paid into SS to receive benefits)  The more you paid, the more you get.

I thought she might be referring to the income limits you can earn while collecting SS before full retirement age. If you earn more than allowed, you lose $1 in SS benefit for every $2 you earn over the limit.  $22,320 is this year’s limit. 
But the landscaper could set up a business and run all the money through that and pay herself a salary that falls below the threshold if she wants to avoid losing any early SS she might be getting. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Annie G said:

I thought she might be referring to the income limits you can earn while collecting SS before full retirement age. If you earn more than allowed, you lose $1 in SS benefit for every $2 you earn over the limit.  $22,320 is this year’s limit. 
But the landscaper could set up a business and run all the money through that and pay herself a salary that falls below the threshold if she wants to avoid losing any early SS she might be getting. 

yep.  and then she would require a business license, and insurance, etc.  
I've done cash 'discounts' with businesses - even my kids ped would do a cash discount. (he later joined a practice to handle the business side of things.)  but they were legit businesses with business licenses.

[QueenCat]

The not being insured is what would trouble me the most. If she gets hurt on your property, which does happen, it's going to be your homeowners insurance that she will go after. If she destroys your property, you won't be able to go after her for repairs without small claims court because she isn't insured. 

[Bootsie]

42 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

yep.  and then she would require a business license, and insurance, etc.  
I've done cash 'discounts' with businesses - even my kids ped would do a cash discount. (he later joined a practice to handle the business side of things.)  but they were legit businesses with business licenses.

In my state no business license (or insurance) would be needed.

[Bootsie]

I am curious as to what types of work people make sure the worker has insurance?  Does anyone hire a neighborhood kid to walk the dog?  A college student to house sit while on vacation?  Someone to walk the dog?  A local teen to rake leaves?  Wash your car?  Babysit your kids?  A handy man to repair a fence?  Do you make sure they all have insurance?  Do you not pay any of them cash? 

[EKS]

Just now, Bootsie said:

I am curious as to what types of work people make sure the worker has insurance?  Does anyone hire a neighborhood kid to walk the dog?  A college student to house sit while on vacation?  Someone to walk the dog?  A local teen to rake leaves?  Wash your car?  Babysit your kids?  A handy man to repair a fence?  Do you make sure they all have insurance?  Do you not pay any of them cash? 

This is a good question.  I'd be interested to hear people's answers.

[bolt.]

18 minutes ago, EKS said:

This is a good question.  I'd be interested to hear people's answers.

For me, I'm pretty comfortable hiring non-insured folks for short-term low-risk things like babysitting, raking leaves, or washing cars. I don't really see those as 'businesses' so it bothers me less that they would be an uninsured business. For a larger project (like when we had our porch enclosed as a screen room) or for more of an ongoing professional thing (like professional house cleaners) I prefer insurance. When someone is running a business, I expect them to run it in a businesslike way, vs someone who is taking odd jobs.

(I'll also mention that it's less common that people would take legal action for an accident or injury here in Canada -- because there aren't any hospital bills. So an injured person would have to have had other significant losses (permanent injury, significant loss of income, etc.) to motivate them to think it might be 'worth it' to hire a lawyer and sue someone. Therefore I worry less about the types of injuries that a worker might sustain, that might become a problem for my home insurance.)

[Katy]

5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

No.  SS benefits are based on what you paid into SS during your working life. (there is a minimum you must have paid into SS to receive benefits)  The more you paid, the more you get.

SS can absolutely be reduced because of income if you're on social security disability.  That's also a possibility.

[Annie G]

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I am curious as to what types of work people make sure the worker has insurance?  Does anyone hire a neighborhood kid to walk the dog?  A college student to house sit while on vacation?  Someone to walk the dog?  A local teen to rake leaves?  Wash your car?  Babysit your kids?  A handy man to repair a fence?  Do you make sure they all have insurance?  Do you not pay any of them cash? 

We verify insurance when we hire people to work on our property- painters, landscape work, roofing, etc.  Anything where an accident could cause US to be on the hook for medical bills or errors and omissions costs.  We learned that when we hired a roofer who had a legit business but let his worker’s comp and errors and omissions insurance lapse between when we hired him and he started the job weeks later. 

Since then we always ask for proof, and several times have had to cancel work because there was no insurance. Our umbrella policy is there for our protection, but I’m not willing to take that risk. 

[KatieJ]

6 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

That's not how it works in the US.  SS- is not a welfare plan (that is affected by outside income.)

SS is based on how much a person paid into it during their working life.  It's not something given to every person (only people who worked and paid into it), so the amounts vary.  
Dh gets SS, and he still has the same business he's had for twenty years with an income that goes up every year.  Hasn't affected his SS benefits.

Income does not affect your SS after you reach full retirement age. For my DH that was 66+3months. 
Everyone’s full retirement can be  different. 

If you file for SS at 63, which is Prior to full retirement age, you are limited on how much income you can earn until you reach full retirement age. DH opted to work at his career job until he reached full retirement age.