The trades and long term plans

[Scarlett]

If you are married to a man who made his living in the trades…..and especially if you are nearing retirement age….can we talk?  Many of the trades can be be physically hard on the body especially as we age. Did your husband just plow through until the end or did he transition in to something less physically taxing.  For instance my good friend was a welder for 20 years and then they trained him on the cnc machines and even though he still works in a hot welders shop he has skills that don’t require the physical work level of a welder.  My own husband was in construction  but I don’t think he would have willingly transitioned out of that if he had not broken his back when he was 33 years old.  
 

I am currently watching good friends of mine go through a really rough patch because he was a plumber with his own business and for whatever reason his business dried up….and they are struggling so so much plus he can’t even do the difficult jobs he once could due to his health.

I am all for the trades……but I definitely think we should be having some conversations with our young people about plans for when our bodies start to break down.

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

If you are married to a man who made his living in the trades…..and especially if you are nearing retirement age….can we talk?  Many of the trades can be be physically hard on the body especially as we age. Did your husband just plow through until the end or did he transition in to something less physically taxing.  For instance my good friend was a welder for 20 years and then they trained him on the cnc machines and even though he still works in a hot welders shop he has skills that don’t require the physical work level of a welder.  My own husband was in construction  but I don’t think he would have willingly transitioned out of that if he had not broken his back when he was 33 years old.  
 

I am currently watching good friends of mine go through a really rough patch because he was a plumber with his own business and for whatever reason his business dried up….and they are struggling so so much plus he can’t even do the difficult jobs he once could due to his health.

I am all for the trades……but I definitely think we should be having some conversations with our young people about plans for when our bodies start to break down.

The same goes for fields like nursing... if you don't switch to a desk job and you work bedside in a hospital or nursing home, your back will eventually go out, sometimes permanently. I remember being warned about that when I was young, but I rarely hear anyone discuss it anymore.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Katy said:

The same goes for fields like nursing... if you don't switch to a desk job and you work bedside in a hospital or nursing home, your back will eventually go out, sometimes permanently. I remember being warned about that when I was young, but I rarely hear anyone discuss it anymore.

Oh good example….my cousin was a nurse and so was his wife but they transitioned into accounting for medical….and later he became a PA….and she is a sahw 

[Scarlett]

Another example is my boss…..he went to vo tec for collision repair…..painted cars like a mad man for years….opened his own shop and had it for 20 years but early on he hired a painter and he just did the estimates and admin work.  Then he got into land development and he hasn’t  done physical work in at least 10 years.  

[Carol in Cal.]

My husband has journeyman papers as a tool and die maker (machinist) and has been telling me that he is a dinosaur since we met in the 80s.  But he got a teaching trades credential and also got some experience moving machine shops, and now he has a lab director job in the mechanical engineering department at a private college.  He uses his entire skill set but it adds up to being much less strenuous than machining metal all day long.  He's in his 70s.  It was absolutely key for him to keep learning and to figure out new ways to apply his knowledge.

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

My husband has journeyman papers as a tool and die maker (machinist) and has been telling me that he is a dinosaur since we met in the 80s.  But he got a teaching trades credential and also got some experience moving machine shops, and now he has a lab director job in the mechanical engineering department at a private college.  He uses his entire skill set but it adds up to being much less strenuous than machining metal all day long.  He's in his 70s.  It was absolutely key for him to keep learning and to figure out new ways to apply his knowledge.

Wow, that is amazing!  

[GoVanGogh]

My BIL recently retired after 40 years as an electrician. He plowed right through til the end, but when he retired he was in so much physical pain due to years of abusing his body in a trade. He is young 60’s and can barely walk. He has issues with his feet, knees and back. 
My dad was a lifelong firefighter/EMT. He talks about how bouncing around in the back of an ambulance destroyed his back. He also has a cancer that is known as an occupational cancer, due to toxins he was exposed to. I am glad to see that many firehouses now have decontamination areas so the firefighters can get toxins washed off immediately. 
One of my good friend’s husband has terminal cancer at age 45 and it is most likely tied to the toxins he was exposed while working in an auto body paint shop. (It was his dad’s business, so he was also exposed to it as a child.) 

I very much support vocational training but I also think that the pros and cons need to be openly discussed. I know young people think they are invincible and may not think the long term issues will affect them, but they do need discussed. 

[Carrie12345]

Are we talking trades as a specifically defined category or more of a labor-intensive general concept?

Dh started as manual labor within a corporation. He gradually positioned himself for various different work within that field, like management, sales, and marketing. Those were stepping stones to consultant and director. Now he’s transitioning to running the entire division of a large corporation that consults on the overall work he started doing 24 years ago.

Cons: corporations often suck and pay doesn’t always reflect effort or what the company earns from that effort.  And you always have to follow their requirements and goals.
Pros: corporations often have room to advance and move away from the physical aspects… but not enough room for every laborer to do so.

”Consulting” is a big deal in nearly every industry, whether labeled as such or not. I would encourage labor-focused people to create a reputation for themselves that can transition into teaching/consulting/report writing/etc.

[Heartstrings]

I think this is an important conversation that too often gets left out of the conversation about trades as a career.  Trades may make more money earlier in their career with far less debt, but that comes at a cost and often means not being able to work as long.  

[TexasProud]

Honestly, this is not just an issue for trades.  The toll of the job on physicians, especially ones that have demanding call schedules and surgeries is real. His specialty was very physically demanding with tons of tools.  And taking call at 30 is very different from taking call at 50.  And many hospitals require call. 

[Rosie_0801]

This point was stressed many times in my carpentry course. I don't know how much the young people listened, but it is a point I've also drummed into my budding lady tradie, who, of course, will have the added challenge of taking time off for babies (probably.) We've brain stormed future ways of pivoting, but time will tell how she eventually manages it.

[Bootsie]

32 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Honestly, this is not just an issue for trades.  The toll of the job on physicians, especially ones that have demanding call schedules and surgeries is real. His specialty was very physically demanding with tons of tools.  And taking call at 30 is very different from taking call at 50.  And many hospitals require call. 

I know two physicians who had to give up practicing because of medical issues by their early 40s.  One was an anesthsiologist with a degenerative bone disease.  The other was a a radiologist with a severe injury.  I also know a veterinarian who had to sell his vet practice after repeated foot injuries. 

[Scarlett]

So it seems to be common sense in a way.   @TexasProud husband did have to retire early but they were well positioned financially.  I guess that is the thing with all of us.  Have a back up plan. 

[Tap]

I think this is a complication tgat is becoming more prevalent with life expectancy being longer, and retirement being pushed off. Bodies still degrade and suffer health issues from illness, age and injury. Another side of this is that jobs that require a person to be fast, adaptable and require lots of new skills to be learned are also hard to do as we age, and the brain slows down.

 

Boyfriend is in the trades and will retire at 60. He planned his life that way and will be fine financially. He is up for a promotion that will reduce, but not stop the physical labor. He may continue working for a bit longer if he gets it. If he is still 100% in physical labor jobs, retirement will absolutely be about that age, whether he wants to or not, due to physical pain/injury.,

[Melissa in Australia]

My father has been working as an electrician since he was 14. He is now in his late 70s and still does the odd job.  

[wathe]

8 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Honestly, this is not just an issue for trades.  The toll of the job on physicians, especially ones that have demanding call schedules and surgeries is real. His specialty was very physically demanding with tons of tools.  And taking call at 30 is very different from taking call at 50.  And many hospitals require call. 

For some specialties absolutely.   There aren't very many old full-time actively practicing emerg docs either:   Nights, holidays, weekends; walking miles per shift (literally), physical procedures, sweating in PPE, chaotic environment, ED violence.   Surgeons get especially painted into a corner, though.  Most specialties are able to make lateral moves into less physically demanding roles: clinics or nursing homes or admin or medico-legal consulting etc.   We tend to tie our identities with our roles though, and making that sort of move can be hard on the ego.

I still think trades are more physically demanding:  I have more control over my work environment, and there is some attention to ergonomics (I can raise the bed or lower the bed etc).  I'm not bent under a sink or contorting myself to get behind appliances or through crawl-spaces and attics the way some trades are every day. 

PP about radiologist made me smile a little. They are literally the most sedentary specialty of all, sitting in the dark, looking at screens, dictating reports, often from home. (Interventional radiology excepted).  That's not to make light of a career-ending injury -- it's devastating no matter what you've trained for --  but not really comparable to trades who do physical labour, I don't think.

[wathe]

Also: good disability insurance with an own-occupation rider is a must, I think.

[Meriwether]

One of my kids is basically going into a trade, but an atypical one. His plan is to open his own business, work hard at it while he is physically able, and then  hire younger people to do the more physical stuff. He knows he can't do heavy physical work until retirement age. I think most people realize that. It isn't a new thought. I just think it is easy to get in a rut.

In some ways doing physical work keep you young, too, so it definitely isn't all negative. My dad announced recently that he is going to stop farming when be turns 80 (he is mid-70's). I thought that was a good idea and then found out that he isn't planning to sell the cows then. He helped put a roof on my house recently and is helping my sister with a building project this summer. He has a bad knee that causes him a lot of pain, but his muscle mass, bone density, and balance are great. And his mind is really sharp, partly due to his continued activity.

[Faith-manor]

Working beyond our bodies is such a reality for so many. My dad was in heating and cooling, and worked until he got cancer at 71 because he couldn't afford to retire. His body was busted up long before cancer, and his pain and exhaustion was palpable. I see this all the time in non sedentary jobs. Of course sedentary jobs have their own health issues because hours a day at a desk contributes to disease.

It is something we are not good at planning for or even talking about in this country, and no one wants to change anything at a policy and community level to make it better.

The single biggest issue in region is lack of benefits. There are only a handful of commercial, larger companies that employ tradespersons and therefore have health insurance, disability and life insurance, paid vacation. Most tradesfolks here are independent, without benefits, and the cost of doing business is high enough that even though the hourly wage on paper looks grand "trades people make huge money", the reality is their take home on it is NOT grand often landing them a net take home far less than my 2022 electrical engineering graduate made his 1st year straight out of college. It is a real problem, and we need trades persons very badly. There is the ACA but for our region, the deductibles are just huge, the out of pocket maximum is huge, and the number of practitioners accepting these plans is low so it ends up being a lot of premium to pay while being in practicality, uninsured except for something truly catastrophic.

We just need to be really honest with our kids, and help them create back up plans. One option might be obtaining a trades teaching certificate for the county tech centers that so many high schoolers attend. Is the pay great? Not at all. But the state benefits are excellent, and having that low premium, low deductible, every practitioner takes it health insurance and a pension program is a good long range plan. Work the trades for a while, get a bunch of experience, then do one of the shorter routes to a teaching credential before the body wears out. Another would be to do both college and trades licensing so the young adult has a project management degree (MSU has an amazing construction management program), but also is licensed for more than one trade. They can work a decade or two doing all the hands on work, and then transition to PM. My niece is a PM, graduate of MSU program, and oh my gosh does she make the bucks AND gets to have a hand in the whole construction process, AND, benefits up the wazoo, but no longer has to worry so much about her body giving out before she can retire.

I am hopeful that future tech innovations will allow medical professionals to work longer and better due to advances in patient care that mean they have far less lifting and standing to do. I have seen some things in the works like robots that can carry heavy gear, and rotate patients. If those are perfected, that could really extend the health of their bodies.

Edited June 6 by Faith-manor

[elegantlion]

Ex-dh was in the trades as a self-employed individual and would hire subcontractors when needed. He ended upon disability before he died at age 58. There were mitigating circumstances to his disability but he could no longer do physical labor. What might sideline the person (put them out of work for 6 to 8 weeks of recovery) who didn't do physical labor put ex-dh completely out of work. 

Another issue in our area is that some sole proprietor type trade businesses are such because they enjoy being self-employed in a non-corporate type job. Ex-dh hated working for someone else and had issues, at times, when he tried to transition to an employee. He's not the only person I saw in that situation. Also, there are people skilled in the trades who really don't have business acumen to be self-employed. While not everyone wants their own business, the seasonal aspect can be hard on larger construction companies that have limited work available off-season. So, when you're in charge of your scheduling, it can be a plus.

Ex got caught up in the good and easy money in his 20s. He tried to transition in his 30s but back then there were no online classes available. Everything was in the evening and he was too exhausted to attend classes after working all day. 

DS has no desire to go into trades because of what he saw his dad going through. If I were going to advise someone interested in trades, I would suggest a secondary field, plans to transition in 30s or 40s to something non-physical and save, save money throughout your career. 

 

 

[Faith-manor]

9 minutes ago, elegantlion said:

Ex-dh was in the trades as a self-employed individual and would hire subcontractors when needed. He ended upon disability before he died at age 58. There were mitigating circumstances to his disability but he could no longer do physical labor. What might sideline the person (put them out of work for 6 to 8 weeks of recovery) who didn't do physical labor put ex-dh completely out of work. 

Another issue in our area is that some sole proprietor type trade businesses are such because they enjoy being self-employed in a non-corporate type job. Ex-dh hated working for someone else and had issues, at times, when he tried to transition to an employee. He's not the only person I saw in that situation. Also, there are people skilled in the trades who really don't have business acumen to be self-employed. While not everyone wants their own business, the seasonal aspect can be hard on larger construction companies that have limited work available off-season. So, when you're in charge of your scheduling, it can be a plus.

Ex got caught up in the good and easy money in his 20s. He tried to transition in his 30s but back then there were no online classes available. Everything was in the evening and he was too exhausted to attend classes after working all day. 

DS has no desire to go into trades because of what he saw his dad going through. If I were going to advise someone interested in trades, I would suggest a secondary field, plans to transition in 30s or 40s to something non-physical and save, save money throughout your career. 

 

 

Yes. Save save save.

It is what my father did not do. But, to be fair to him, up front costs combined with the need to keep reinvesting to upgrade equipment, vehicles, advertise the business, and get it settled and stable meant that for many years, there wasn't a dime to be saved. Many young adults have no idea this is often the way of things when establishing a small business. They hear what the plumber charges per hour, and think they can just take that all home. I am a big fan of encouraging graduates who want to establish a small business to attend college for a two year business degree with an emphasis in accounting. I am also a big fan of making them attend a trades conference for their intended speciality, and listen to the special speakers, talk to the wise owls who have been doing it for decades. 

They need to understand that overhead is a small business killer. They need to know how to manage this. According to the small business bureau, 20% of all small businesses fail in the 1st 2 years, 45% within 5, and 65% within 10. 

One of the biggest mistakes my father ever made was maintaining a storefront and fireplace displays. Sure people liked to walk in and see options and possibilities. But the cost of that was astronomical. The rent/ownership of a storefront is not for the faint of heart even in rural areas, the commercial taxes are big, the overhead is terrible. If he had simply put up a small office space in a small workshop/pole barn on his home's property, and worked out of that with a photo gallery of completed jobs for potential customers to see, I think he would have saved $50,000-100,000 a year. When he died, his store and office space on main street of that town, valued at $250,000 sold for $43,000 at auction. The realtor had tried for 12 months to sell and never had a bite. My old mother living on social security and a small military pension could not keep insuring it, and paying utilities, winter heat. She would have gone bankrupt. In the 7 years since it sold, 4 different start up businesses have set up shop and gone out of business. That is less than 2 years each! The coffee shop lasted at most 6 months.

There are ways to do it and make it reasonably profitable, but the business plan has to be spot on. This is often not the case, just a dream, and a jump in with both feet kind of thing.

[wintermom]

Great topic area! My dad (natural gas tech), my mom (nurse), a good friend (general contractor), and apparently a ton of Canadian vets are finding the daily physical labour really tough on the body. My parents advized us kids from entering a really physically demanding career. I ignored it and went into physical education. 😀 Fortunatly I was able to homeschool for years and be physically active without wrecking my body. Now I'm far too sedentary and 'wrecking' my body. 😉 

[fairfarmhand]

Its interesting that we have 2 categories of people. Those who are physically asking "too much" of their bodies for too many years, and that we have those who do too little and are wrecking themselves through being sedentary. 

[SounderChick]

Planning and doing so early.  Our friends circle is in their early 40's and basically all the trade guys have already transitioned to be the boss/admin position already. I think by 30 you have to have a plan. We have 1 friend who isn't really capable of moving to admin his boss also friend encouraged him to meet with a finicial planner, they set him up the best they can and he will work as long as humanly possible.  Our friend/dentist has had to plan and transition because he has developed terrible arthritis and will probably not be able to work past 50.  

[kbutton]

I highly recommend getting into a good PT periodically to work on making sure you move well—sometimes people use the wrong muscle groups or use their muscles the wrong way for any task. I am on the “hypermobility spectrum” but don’t have an actual diagnosis, and my body/brain connection had to be retrained for certain things, including walking. Some bodies just default to a feeling of stability at the expensive of joints and such, and there are better ways and less better ways to achieve this.

Also, some repetitive tasks leave you with one set of muscles overworked and a complementary set underworked (probably not the right terminology), if I understand things correctly.

I think good PT and such is similar to making sure you change the oil in your car and do your x number of miles preventive maintenance if you intend to drive your car into the ground.

[KungFuPanda]

23 hours ago, Scarlett said:

If you are married to a man who made his living in the trades…..and especially if you are nearing retirement age….can we talk?  Many of the trades can be be physically hard on the body especially as we age. Did your husband just plow through until the end or did he transition in to something less physically taxing.  For instance my good friend was a welder for 20 years and then they trained him on the cnc machines and even though he still works in a hot welders shop he has skills that don’t require the physical work level of a welder.  My own husband was in construction  but I don’t think he would have willingly transitioned out of that if he had not broken his back when he was 33 years old.  
 

I am currently watching good friends of mine go through a really rough patch because he was a plumber with his own business and for whatever reason his business dried up….and they are struggling so so much plus he can’t even do the difficult jobs he once could due to his health.

I am all for the trades……but I definitely think we should be having some conversations with our young people about plans for when our bodies start to break down.

I do think all the dirty jobs rhetoric glosses over how you’re supposed to eat if you get injured doing a very physical job with a higher chance of injury. DH broke his back in the military. He retrained as a mathematician. It’s not a physical hardship to do that work when you’re turning gray. 

My last job was with a landscaper who is still working with the crew every day in his mid sixties. He believes the reason he can still work that hard is that he spends time outside of the job working on strength and fitness. He runs and lifts weights. How many people are doing that? Who has the time? That guy is a divorced workaholic.

I think we desperately need skilled trades workers but it would be nice if they could be incentivized with a lower retirement age or if they went in expecting to have a second career beginning in midlife. I like to think the younger generations are more educated about having multiple income streams. 

[wintermom]

I'd like to see more research and reality checks for women in or considering going into the trades. There was one excellent presentation by a doctor at a Women in the Trades conference I attended last year. With the added physical burden of women-specific health issues, including pregnancy and ongoing childcare, there's a lot of gaps in the marketing information out there trying to attract underrepresented groups into the trades. 

Edited June 7 by wintermom