Alcoholism UGH

[DawnM]

Last night I went out with a friend.    She had a family member visiting who joined us.   That person just finished 30 days in a residential rehab facility.   My friend even brought over all her alcohol to my house to have it out of her house while her relative was visiting.

She needn't have.   The relative is back to drinking again.   At dinner she ordered THREE drinks!   On the way home, they stopped at the grocery store and she bought bottles of wine since there was no alcohol in the house.

She claims she just needs to cut down, but we don't see any signs of cutting down at all.   

I realize we can't make her, but it is hard to watch.   She just left rehab less than 2 weeks ago.

[Innisfree]

Yes, it is hard to watch. I’m sorry. We’ve been watching this for years in a relative.

[Ginevra]

I’m so sorry. Yes it is hard to watch, as it is with any self-harming addiction. I always wonder why the person does not see the problem. 

[Kassia]

Addiction is so sad and destroys the lives of the addict and their loved ones.  😞 

[Bambam]

I have a distant relative like this. Already spent time in prison due to number of DUIs. DL taken away permanently unless they pays major $$$$s to get it back (which, btw, I don't agree with). Bikes to liquor store now. It is sad the hold this has on some.  But, no, they don't think they have a problem. 

[MEmama]

I was once in a serious and complicated relationship with someone with an addictive personality. It's so much more complex than "they don't see it".

[Ginevra]

14 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I was once in a serious and complicated relationship with someone with an addictive personality. It's so much more complex than "they don't see it".

Can you expand on this? I really want to understand why people do things like this. To me, it does look like “they don’t see it”. 

[EKS]

Standard rehab is notorious for its failures.  If they would simply add naltrexone and then counsel clients in its appropriate use, their failure rate would go way down.  But my theory is that they are not interested in actually helping people because that wouldn't be nearly as lucrative.  See The Irrationality of Alcoholics Anonymous and One Little Pill.

ETA: I've was told below that the Atlantic article is behind a paywall, so here's an alternative: How the Sinclair Method Changed My Mind About Naltrexone and Alcohol Recovery.

Edited May 31 by EKS

[pinball]

12 minutes ago, EKS said:

Standard rehab is notorious for its failures.  If they would simply add naltrexone and then counsel clients in its appropriate use, their failure rate would go way down.  But my theory is that they are not interested in actually helping people because that wouldn't be nearly as lucrative.  See The Irrationality of Alcoholics Anonymous and One Little Pill.

The Atlantic is a pay to play website. That first article is only available to subscribers or if you want to start a “free” trial AKA we hope you’ll forget to cancel so we can charge you.

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, Ginevra said:

Yes it is hard to watch, as it is with any self-harming addiction. I always wonder why the person does not see the problem. 

They do but alcohol isn’t the real issue most times. The issue is that it is a coping mechanism and as long as the emotional triggers and underlying problems are there they will seek out alcohol (cigarettes, vape, etc). 
My FIL drank lots of beer because that was the stereotypical manly behavior at his workplace. He quit when he retired and didn’t have fun money to spend on beer. A few of my cousins used to drink beer at weddings in excess because competing on drinking volume was a thing 🤦‍♀️

The people that I know who are really alcoholics have emotional issues troubling them. If they aren’t drinking, they would likely be chain smoking. It really is more of a “drown your sorrows” mechanism. 

[EKS]

14 minutes ago, pinball said:

The Atlantic is a pay to play website. That first article is only available to subscribers or if you want to start a “free” trial AKA we hope you’ll forget to cancel so we can charge you.

I'm sorry you weren't able to access the article.  I believe that The Atlantic gives non-subscribers access to five articles per month, but perhaps that doesn't apply to this article.

Here's an alternative article:  How the Sinclair Method Changed My Mind About Naltrexone and Alcohol Recovery

Edited May 31 by EKS

[pinball]

10 minutes ago, EKS said:

I'm sorry you weren't able to access the article.  I believe that The Atlantic gives non-subscribers access to five articles per month, but perhaps that doesn't apply to this article.

Usually, sites that do that have a countdown of sorts…you have 2 free articles left this month.

There was no such message.

[EKS]

54 minutes ago, pinball said:

Usually, sites that do that have a countdown of sorts…you have 2 free articles left this month.

There was no such message.

Again, here's an alternative: How the Sinclair Method Changed My Mind About Naltrexone and Alcohol Recovery

Edited May 31 by EKS

[pinball]

13 minutes ago, EKS said:

Again, here's an alternative: Here's an alternative article:  How the Sinclair Method Changed My Mind About Naltrexone and Alcohol Recovery

My sincere apologies. I must have quoted you before you edited your post to include the above article. I am so sorry to have done that. 

[MEmama]

8 hours ago, Ginevra said:

Can you expand on this? I really want to understand why people do things like this. To me, it does look like “they don’t see it”. 

Deleted for privacy

Edited May 31 by MEmama

[BeachGal]

William Miller and Stephen Rollnick's book, Motivational Interviewing: Helping People Change and Grow, has been used to help addicts devise their own sobriety plans. Key ideas are to recognize ambivalence, not remove autonomy and offer empathic support.

Miller has been very successful in helping addicts move through the process of change and his methods can be used in situations beyond addictions.

[EKS]

17 minutes ago, pinball said:

My sincere apologies. I must have quoted you before you edited your post to include the above article. I am so sorry to have done that. 

I'm glad you've now seen that there is an alternative article 😊

[Ginevra]

@MEmama, do you know anything about what this person would call the turning point? 
 

Someone I know who started to go down that road said that they looked at a bunch of college friends, saw where their lives were headed (nowhere good), and decided that was not the direction they wanted to go anymore. Also sited parental unfailing support as an assist. 

[Kassia]

@MEmamaI'm so glad he turned his life around.  That is very hard.  My friend's ds - probably one of the worst addicts I've ever known - got clean (heavy drug addict) when his girlfriend got pregnant.  The baby is a year old now and this is the longest he's ever been clean.  My friend is so relieved - they had been through so much for a long time to the point where he almost died many times - and he's doing great.  Fingers crossed that he never relapses.  I agree that some people are more prone to addiction than others, plus there's always nature and nurture involved.  I wouldn't wish it on anyone, that's for sure.  

No one wants to be an addict.  

Edited May 31 by Kassia

[marbel]

Yeah I watched my father die of alcoholism; it had nothing to do with him not seeing it. He told me he simply did not feel "right" if he wasn't drunk. But he never missed a day of work due to it (retired at age 67 with accolades from his employer of 50 years - the only company he ever worked for), never had an accident, DUI, etc. Bills were paid on time. He abused no one. He just got quietly, embarrasingly drunk every night. He went to residential rehab (I took him), came back after his 30 days, spent some time toying with NA beer, and then was right back at it till his liver and kidneys failed. 

Mental illness, chemical problem, who knows? He was sick, not simply weak or careless. 

[El...]

23 minutes ago, Kassia said:

 

No one wants to be an addict.  

This. Yes.

And this statement of fact creates a baseline philosophy for helping people escape addiction. I think this is the missing baseline in a lot of policy  discussions. 

[regentrude]

Re: crucial event and AA
A very dear friend of mine was an alcoholic for 25 years. They hit rock bottom when, blackout drunk, they said something deeply hurtful to a loved one. The next day they stopped drinking. cold turkey They are now five years sober.
They joined AA after being a year sober and credit the AA system for being able to learn how to live sober: having a sponsor, being required to make amends, i.e. examine their previous life and take responsibility. They say it was this work that helped them overcome the mental illness.
 

Re naltrexone
I guess it's not popular because historically alcoholism and addiction have been considered not as illness that needs to be treated but as sinful moral failing that has to be overcome, and a medical solution doesn't fit that picture.
However, since many alcoholics self-medicate using alcohol because of other underlying issues, I can see a therapeutic value in the AA approach to address those other issues that led to the alcohol abuse in the first place. 

 

Edited May 31 by regentrude

[JennyD]

This book changed how I think about alcoholism.  

 

Edited May 31 by JennyD

[Ginevra]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Re: crucial event and AA
A very dear friend of mine was an alcoholic for 25 years. They hit rock bottom when, blackout drunk, they said something deeply hurtful to a loved one. The next day they stopped drinking. cold turkey They are now five years sober.
They joined AA after being a year sober and credit the AA system for being able to learn how to live sober: having a sponsor, being required to make amends, i.e. examine their previous life and take responsibility. They say it was this work that helped them overcome the mental illness.
 

Re naltrexone
I guess it's not popular because historically alcoholism and addiction have been considered not as illness that needs to be treated but as sinful moral failing that has to be overcome, and a medical solution doesn't fit that picture.
However, since many alcoholics self-medicate using alcohol because of other underlying issues, I can see a therapeutic value in the AA approach to address those other issues that led to the alcohol abuse in the first place. 

 

What seems so strange to me about Naltrexone, though, is I only have ever heard about it on here. 
 

While I think therapy can surely help many people who struggle with harmful behaviors, I have been hearing some interesting things about another drug that influences craving behavior: Ozempic. (Whatever the drug name is; ozemiprone or something.) Because, while there are a multitude of reasons why people overeat/choose food in harmful manners, and people who struggle with obesity may benefit from therapy, the action of Ozempic (as I understand it) is that you just don’t think about food much. 
 

I remember hearing on a news program Nestle and Mars food companies are trying to brainstorm how to keep people snacking in the face of Ozempic. Literally out there trying to find a way to continue creating intense desire for their unhealthy trash “food” in the face of so many people taking a medication that reduces desire for food. 
 

It’s taking me forever to get there, but my point is that, if Naltrexone works like this against alcoholic cravings, why aren’t “we” just starting with that? I mean sure, get your therapy and a sponsor is sure to help but if a medication changes the body/brain so reliably, why aren’t we starting there? 
 

In the heartbreaking book, “A Beautiful Boy,” the author says his son could not really embrace the steps of his drug rehab program because the first step was to acknowledge “A Higher Power.” He was an atheist; his dad was too. He kept feeling stuck to move forward with it because he did not believe in a Higher Power, so the rests just felt like kidding himself. 
 

I wonder how many people have not continued with programs for this reason, or for other similar reasons. For one thing, might it not be easier to quit something if it were *not* so huge in their lives to begin with? Like, suppose I had to go through 12 steps to reconcile my over use of ice cream. Doesn’t that just make it *harder* for me to quit ice cream entirely forever? Because I’m bound to say, “What’s so bad about an ice cream ever now and then?” 
 

I don’t know; just spit-balling here. I don’t have much experience with substance abuse but I think as a society we should be trying other ways. 

[Kassia]

9 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

 

While I think therapy can surely help many people who struggle with harmful behaviors, I have been hearing some interesting things about another drug that influences craving behavior: Ozempic. (Whatever the drug name is; ozemiprone or something.) Because, while there are a multitude of reasons why people overeat/choose food in harmful manners, and people who struggle with obesity may benefit from therapy, the action of Ozempic (as I understand it) is that you just don’t think about food much. 

 

 

I've heard Ozempic gets rid of the "noise."  That's why I'd love to try it.  I'm constantly thinking of food and have had a lifetime of disordered eating and eating disorders.  Even though I've never had a drug or alcohol addiction, I think I can relate to the feeling of constantly trying to avoid doing something harmful and failing over and over and over again (either eating "forbidden" foods, eating over my calorie allotment for the day no matter how reasonable it is, binge eating, etc.)  My entire life revolves around food and eating, not eating, counting calories, feeling good for sticking to my plan, feeling bad for not sticking to it, etc.  What a waste of a life.  The difference between food and alcohol/drugs is that you have to eat and can't abstain.

[Kassia]

23 minutes ago, JennyD said:

This book changed how I think about alcoholism.  

 

She was a great writer.  I read this one and Appetites.  I have her collection of essays too, but haven't read it yet.  

[Ginevra]

22 minutes ago, Kassia said:

The difference between food and alcohol/drugs is that you have to eat and can't abstain.

Yes, that is a difference, but I think that “noise” you’re talking about is experienced by alcoholics, too. Even though I’m sure nobody thinks they have to drink to survive (as you do with food), I believe there is still a lot of chatter about why one “should” have a drink. Everything from, “I work hard! I deserve to have a few beers/a glass of wine/a gin & tonic at the end of a day!” to “Well the Blue Zone guy says all the Blue Zone groups except Loma Linda have a form of alcohol they drink regularly, so alcohol is good.” 
 

And, I’m sorry you have had this struggle all your life. I remember you saying that before. 

[EKS]

44 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

It’s taking me forever to get there, but my point is that, if Naltrexone works like this against alcoholic cravings, why aren’t “we” just starting with that? I mean sure, get your therapy and a sponsor is sure to help but if a medication changes the body/brain so reliably, why aren’t we starting there? 

Good question--because it does work when used correctly.  By "correctly" I mean that it is taken an hour before the person intends to drink.  Its use must be coupled with drinking, because you want the brain to unlearn the problematic behavior.  This unlearning can take many months (usually 6-9, IIRC).  So it isn't like you pop a pill and your alcoholism is fixed, though many people discover that they can normalize their drinking behavior from the very first dose.

One of the reasons given for not trying it first is that the abstinence-only folks don't like the fact that you not only are adding a drug (the naltrexone) but that you also have to drink alcohol for it to work.  If they incorporate its use at all, they simply tell the client to take one pill every day and to also abstain.  This will not work.

Alcoholism is treated as a moral issue in this country.  To accept that something like naltrexone works, you need to reject the moral piece.  

And as for the idea that people become alcoholics because they are using alcohol to deal with mental distress--when you take naltrexone before drinking, the effects of the alcohol are attenuated to a point that one way or another you're going to need to figure out a different way to deal with it.

And as I said above, I also think that having people fail at rehab over and over is good for the rehab industry.  Routinely trying naltrexone first would likely eliminate a lot of that.

Edited May 31 by EKS

[EKS]

46 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

What seems so strange to me about Naltrexone, though, is I only have ever heard about it on here. 

Are there other people besides me who mention it on here?

[Ginevra]

12 minutes ago, EKS said:

Are there other people besides me who mention it on here?

Until @regentrude above, I’ve only seen it mentioned by you. 

[EKS]

1 minute ago, Ginevra said:

Until @regentrude above, I’ve only seen it mentioned by you. 

I am kind of on a mission to disseminate information about it.  It really bugs me that it isn’t a frontline treatment.

[Ginevra]

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

I am kind of on a mission to disseminate information about it.  It really bugs me that it isn’t a frontline treatment.

I might just take up that mantle and be a co-disseminator. 

[MEmama]

6 hours ago, Ginevra said:

@MEmama, do you know anything about what this person would call the turning point? 
 

Someone I know who started to go down that road said that they looked at a bunch of college friends, saw where their lives were headed (nowhere good), and decided that was not the direction they wanted to go anymore. Also sited parental unfailing support as an assist. 

Deleted for privacy

Edited May 31 by MEmama

[pinball]

16 minutes ago, EKS said:

I am kind of on a mission to disseminate information about it.  It really bugs me that it isn’t a frontline treatment.

I’ve passed on info about naloxone on this board to a particular person and they later said they heard tell of a drug that helped ODs but didn’t know anything about it, even forgot the name.

Lead a horse to water and all that…

[Kassia]

48 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

Yes, that is a difference, but I think that “noise” you’re talking about is experienced by alcoholics, too.

Oh, absolutely.  I'm sure it's that way with any addiction or compulsion.

[Arcadia]

@MEmama near death or serious illness, and something to live for are often turning points for people with addictions. I know chain smokers who stop when they have illness (e.g. internal bleeding) that makes them think that quitting chain smoking would go a long way towards ensuring that they get to live to see their children become young adults. I have a late paternal uncle that is very self centered and he never did care about his wife or children. He was happy being drunk and couldn't care less if he died of alcoholism. Luckily he never drove because he would not have spared a thought about DUI. We just hoped while he was alive that he never walked in front of a vehicle while drunk and cause the poor driver who knocked him down emotional damage.

[TechWife]

13 hours ago, pinball said:

The Atlantic is a pay to play website. That first article is only available to subscribers or if you want to start a “free” trial AKA we hope you’ll forget to cancel so we can charge you.

Here’s the Atlantic article gifted: 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/?gift=Cmf2ErfCGOrul9UWQF1XBenenclt6aryfkD4SdiEcEk&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

[EKS]

11 hours ago, TechWife said:

Here’s the Atlantic article gifted: 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/?gift=Cmf2ErfCGOrul9UWQF1XBenenclt6aryfkD4SdiEcEk&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

Thank you!  I'm glad someone was able to figure out how to do that!

[TechWife]

5 hours ago, EKS said:

Thank you!  I'm glad someone was able to figure out how to do that!

I have several subscriptions that allow me to gift a limited number of articles each month. 

You can ask me for: 

The Atlantic 

The New York Times

Washington Post

Christianity Today

Plough

ETA: If you want a link to an article, please ask in a related thread & I'll put it there so everyone can benefit (make sure to tag me so I see it), or message me if it's off topic. 

Edited June 1 by TechWife

[Halftime Hope]

4 hours ago, TechWife said:

I have several subscriptions that allow me to gift a limited number of articles each month. 

You can ask me for: 

The Atlantic 

The New York Times

Washington Post

Christianity Today

Plough

 

@TechWife  Could I request this please, if you have left over articles to gift? Please don't feel obligated at all. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/31/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-d-graham-burnett.html?campaign_id=39&emc=edit_ty_20240601&instance_id=125066&nl=opinion-today&regi_id=109590944&segment_id=168422&te=1&user_id=e67ee956aa3b1095cd090d92e8fc307d  And thank you; I found the Atlantic article very helpful.

 

Edited June 1 by Halftime Hope

[TechWife]

47 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

@TechWife  Could I request this please, if you have left over articles to gift? Please don't feel obligated at all. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/31/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-d-graham-burnett.html?campaign_id=39&emc=edit_ty_20240601&instance_id=125066&nl=opinion-today&regi_id=109590944&segment_id=168422&te=1&user_id=e67ee956aa3b1095cd090d92e8fc307d  And thank you; I found the Atlantic article very helpful.

 

I messaged you!

[DawnM]

On 5/31/2024 at 4:17 PM, Kassia said:

I've heard Ozempic gets rid of the "noise."  That's why I'd love to try it.  I'm constantly thinking of food and have had a lifetime of disordered eating and eating disorders.  Even though I've never had a drug or alcohol addiction, I think I can relate to the feeling of constantly trying to avoid doing something harmful and failing over and over and over again (either eating "forbidden" foods, eating over my calorie allotment for the day no matter how reasonable it is, binge eating, etc.)  My entire life revolves around food and eating, not eating, counting calories, feeling good for sticking to my plan, feeling bad for not sticking to it, etc.  What a waste of a life.  The difference between food and alcohol/drugs is that you have to eat and can't abstain.

I sent you a PM, I can relate to some of what you are saying.  But it isn't a waste of a life, it is a learned behavior that needs some tweaking.   That's all.

[TravelingChris]

My dh's family had addiction issues.  My b-i-l flunked out of college because of excessive drinking and not going to classes.  He was 2 years ahead of my dh.  When dh and I moved up our plans to get married because my mom got ALS, and it didn't look like she would make it if we waited for him to graduate college, we had to do a cheap wedding.  We decided to have a non-alcoholic reception at our apartment.  We didn't own a car so we just hauled all the food, cake, drinks, etc to our apartment.  It didn't work.  B-i-l left and went to get some beer.

Also, a long time ago, my dh's first boss's boss was a functional alcoholic.  He discovered it when traveling with him and others on tdy's.  He drank to excess every evening.  We have no idea if he ever stopped- all we know is that when we lived in the DC area about 15 years ago, we found out that he was in the area, too, though we never ran across him.

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

I sent you a PM, I can relate to some of what you are saying.  But it isn't a waste of a life, it is a learned behavior that needs some tweaking.   That's all.

Thanks, I'll reply in a bit.  

It is a waste of a life when I have spent 90% of my life (from when I was a young child) obsessing about my weight/food/calories/body size/exercise.  It ruins everything I do and experience.  It has affected my relationships.  Many years ago, one of the books I read about eating disorders described a woman struggling who said that she didn't want her headstone to say, "Wanted to be thin" when she died.  That is me.  Everything in my life revolves around that and I have lost so much.  

Edited June 2 by Kassia

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, Kassia said:

Everything in my life revolves around that and I have lost so much

I don’t know if this would work with regards to weight perception issues but when my friends are able to stop worrying about how their parents perceive them, they could look back at old photos and see joy and other happy feelings that they missed because they were viewing through their parents lenses. For example, class photos; what they used to see is that they were not good enough. Now they could see the happy times, the camaraderie, the facial expressions of their classmates.