Another funny directions story

[Scarlett]

Dh and I got to a State Park in AR late last night.  This morning it was completely overcast and I was completely disoriented.  We had a  lovely waitress named Lindsey. We told her our plan for the day which was to hike to a waterfall in the park. She was very knowledgeable about the park and gave us some great pointers. as we sat in the dining room with a gorgeous view, I ask her which way is north. She said I have no idea. Sorry I am a millennial.  But as I said, she was very friendly and very helpful in other ways.

I stewed on this through breakfast and then when she came back around, I asked her, “where is the sunset“?  She looked pleased as punch to tell me, “right here.” I asked her what she meant and she said the best sunset on the mountain is from this spot and she pointed out the window. Then she continued to tell us that the best sun sunrise on the mountain is in such such place.

I was completely amused that she knew exactly where the sun set annd exactly where the sun rises, but she did not know which way north was.

We did our hike and then came back for a late lunch, completely exhausted. She again was giving us all kinds of very informative tidbits and she was a great waitress overall.  She took us to the window and showed us below a family of groundhogs.

I expressed my gratitude for her being so helpful and informative. And then told her that since she knows where the sunsets and sunrises on that mountain, then she also can easily know where north is. I reminded her of the acronym ‘never eat sour worms’. She knew it because she recited it along with me. I saw the lightbulb come on and she blinked a few times and then pointed north and said oh I guess I just never put it together.

Anyway. That is my cute story for the day. Another millennial saved by Scarlett.

Edited May 7 by Scarlett

[wintermom]

I'm not grasping why it's crutial to know at any random moment which way is north. If you know where all the key landmarks are and can describe them to others from a specific location, that's way more useful IME. 

[regentrude]

11 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I'm not grasping why it's crutial to know at any random moment which way is north. If you know where all the key landmarks are and can describe them to others from a specific location, that's way more useful IME. 

When you hike, it's pretty important. Because otherwise,  which way do you hold the map?

[Laura Corin]

12 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I'm not grasping why it's crutial to know at any random moment which way is north. If you know where all the key landmarks are and can describe them to others from a specific location, that's way more useful IME. 

I've often found on here that people who come from grid-based cities stress the importance of knowing where north is. That's the way their brains are trained. I don't know if this applies this time. I grew up in a city of 7 hills and two rivers, so no grid. 

[Laura Corin]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

When you hike, it's pretty important. Because otherwise,  which way do you hold the map?

I orient the map based on landmarks.

[Scarlett]

14 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I'm not grasping why it's crutial to know at any random moment which way is north. If you know where all the key landmarks are and can describe them to others from a specific location, that's way more useful IME. 

If you know all of that then you should know which way is north.  And it was important to me to know which way north was since we were about to go hiking.   

[Scarlett]

And I think everyone should know the directions from where they live and work.  Honestly I think people usually know more than they think they do……for some reason hearing questions about north, south, east and west freezes people up. 

[Scarlett]

24 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I've often found on here that people who come from grid-based cities stress the importance of knowing where north is. That's the way their brains are trained. I don't know if this applies this time. I grew up in a city of 7 hills and two rivers, so no grid. 

My home town was built on the diagonal in line with the railroad.  As time passed and the town grew new streets were laid out north south east west.  It is a small town still, in the middle of an AR national forest at the base of a mountain.  I can get around there easily of course but I often can’t tell where north is because of the confusing way the town is laid out. 

[regentrude]

35 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I orient the map based on landmarks.

That works if the topography is straightforward. If there are many similar landmarks (canyons, hills, ridges), you need to know direction in order to tell one from the other. The brain does a good job "matching" the features to what you *think* they should be. A quick way to get totally lost by going down the wrong ravine....

Edited May 7 by regentrude

[Faith-manor]

46 minutes ago, regentrude said:

When you hike, it's pretty important. Because otherwise,  which way do you hold the map?

This. It is crucial when you sail, when you kayak, when you get stuck on a dirt road and your gps/phone has no cell phone reception because if your head remembers that Google maps showed the last town was south of you, it is good to know which way to walk. I would imagine that for those who do not get much off the beaten path, sense of directionality isn't commonly used. For those of us down staters known to hike the wilds of the upper peninsula here with cell phone plans that have no reception up there, we follow trail maps, and have to keep our wits about us. When Mark and I are five miles from shore in the sailboat, we need to know what way we have to go to get back to shore, and there is ZERO cell phone reception on Lake Huron. We have a marine radio and fresh batts for it, but that is something we only want to use in emergencies and to get weather updates. If we were not good with charts, maps, and sense of direction, we would never get very far from shore.

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

When you hike, it's pretty important. Because otherwise,  which way do you hold the map?

 

2 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

I orient the map based on landmarks.

Compass and landmarks, because compasses sometimes get a bit cranky. 

[SKL]

Doesn't your phone have a compass?

[TexasProud]

LOL, well you would never be able to save this... (what generation am I, boomer maybe?  Born 1967.)  I will never be able to tell north from south. Ever.  The way that I face is north. Period. 

[SKL]

I try to tell north/south based on where the sun is, if it's not noon or dark.  Otherwise, if I'm not near home, I'm pretty hopeless.  But my phone compass is there to save me!

[Scarlett]

17 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

LOL, well you would never be able to save this... (what generation am I, boomer maybe?  Born 1967.)  I will never be able to tell north from south. Ever.  The way that I face is north. Period. 

Do you know which way your house faces?

[Arcadia]

19 minutes ago, SKL said:

Doesn't your phone have a compass?

For telling where North is, the phone compass is good enough. However, its not very accurate for hiking.

Black case is 13 pro, blue case is 6s, compass is a very entry level Coleman compass that we use for fun.

[regentrude]

I would imagine any gardener would know where North is, since they have to select plants based on how much sun or shade they want. How could one not know which side of the property is north?

[Harriet Vane]

I only knew directions when I lived in Chicago. The lake is east. I always knew where the lake is. Everything else can be oriented to that.

In my current city I know directions only if I am on one of two specific highways, one of which runs north-south and the other runs east-west. Put me on a regular street and all bets are off. 

As for the wilderness, thank God when I hike dh or ds are usually hiking too, because otherwise it's a solid bet I will be lost forever.

[wintermom]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

When you hike, it's pretty important. Because otherwise,  which way do you hold the map?

Wouldn't the placement of the trailhead (parkinglot, road, etc.) and the direction it runs give you a big clue? You can orientate a map that way, and then use a compass to verify. 

[wintermom]

4 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

I've often found on here that people who come from grid-based cities stress the importance of knowing where north is. That's the way their brains are trained. I don't know if this applies this time. I grew up in a city of 7 hills and two rivers, so no grid. 

Definitely, this is crutial for me. My current city is not really grid-based, though it lays beside a river that runs roughly east/west, but there are big bends in the river. Depending where you are in the city, the river could be north, west or east of you. Neighbourhood roads are designed to curve around in quasi-circles off of major roads, but these main roads don't always run east/west or north/south. Landmarks are much more useful to me than caring about which way is actually north at any given location I might be.

[SKL]

As for hiking ... I'm pretty sure I would be dead by now if I didn't hike in small areas surrounded by roads.  😛

[wintermom]

4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

If you know all of that then you should know which way is north.  And it was important to me to know which way north was since we were about to go hiking.   

Seems like the safest option for you, particularly since you were disorientated by overcast sky, that you pre-plan to have a compass when you travel. Were you planning on going hiking without a compass? Or did you really just need to get yourself to the trailhead and then follow well-marked trails? 

[regentrude]

46 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Wouldn't the placement of the trailhead (parkinglot, road, etc.) and the direction it runs give you a big clue? You can orientate a map that way, and then use a compass to verify. 

That trailhead will be many turns, canyons, ridges, and creek crossings away. And you'll have packed up the map since then. Nobody is hiking with an unfolded map in front of them. 

[TexasProud]

49 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Wouldn't the placement of the trailhead (parkinglot, road, etc.) and the direction it runs give you a big clue? You can orientate a map that way, and then use a compass to verify. 

Yeah, I don't know my directions, but I can follow a trail map as you describe. 

[TexasProud]

Just now, regentrude said:

That trailhead will be many turns, canyons, ridges, and creek crossings away. And you'll have packed up the map since then. Nobody is hiking with an unfolded map in front of them. 

You must go on harder trails.  And yes, one of us is holding the map the entire time and checking when we come to forks to make sure we are where we think we are.   We go on 3 to 4 mile hikes and constantly check the map to make sure we are where we think we are. 

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

You must go on harder trails.  And yes, one of us is holding the map the entire time and checking when we come to forks to make sure we are where we think we are.   We go on 3 to 4 mile hikes and constantly check the map to make sure we are where we think we are. 

Yeah, that's not what I was thinking about.

What would you do if you happened to get lost?

Edited May 7 by regentrude

[Scarlett]

32 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Seems like the safest option for you, particularly since you were disorientated by overcast sky, that you pre-plan to have a compass when you travel. Were you planning on going hiking without a compass? Or did you really just need to get yourself to the trailhead and then follow well-marked trails? 

I don’t know why but it feels like you are wanting to argue.  Yes I have a compass on my phone but as others have pointed out they aren’t that reliable. Also I don’t think it was too much to presume the young lady who was so knowledgeable about the park would know. 
 

It is a popular hike and I wasn’t too worried about getting lost but I don’t like the feeling of not knowing where I am going directionally speaking. 
 

 

[TexasProud]

Just now, Scarlett said:

t I don’t like the feeling of not knowing where I am going directionally speaking. 
 

 

LOL.. just walk around in my body for awhile.  you will get used to it.  🙂 

[TheReader]

4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

My home town was built on the diagonal in line with the railroad.  As time passed and the town grew new streets were laid out north south east west.  It is a small town still, in the middle of an AR national forest at the base of a mountain.  I can get around there easily of course but I often can’t tell where north is because of the confusing way the town is laid out. 

 

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Do you know which way your house faces?

Interestingly, my neighborhood is aligned on some diagonal (why, I don't know....), but my house is oriented so that sunrise/sunset are on a diagonal over my house.  Which makes my front door face NE-ish.  (sunrise is about 45* to my right if I"m standing in my front door facing forward, sunset about 45* left of my left shoulder if I'm standing in the front door facing forward). It's the oddest orientation, but makes for some lovely sunsets in the backyard. 

[TexasProud]

Just now, regentrude said:

Yeah, that's not what I was thinking about.

What would you do if you happened to get lost?

Stay in place and blow a whistle.  But we only do well marked trails, so I doubt that would happen. 

[wintermom]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t know why but it feels like you are wanting to argue.  Yes I have a compass on my phone but as others have pointed out they aren’t that reliable. Also I don’t think it was too much to presume the young lady who was so knowledgeable about the park would know. 
 

It is a popular hike and I wasn’t too worried about getting lost but I don’t like the feeling of not knowing where I am going directionally speaking. 
 

 

Well it felt you started this thread to laugh at a helpful girl who gave you directions, but she didn't fit into your definition of helpful. I can only imagine the story she'd be telling her coworker, "This lady didn't appreciate all the good information I provided. She only needed to drill into my head that I should have known where north was."

[TheReader]

I have to admit, direction takes me a lot of thinking, as far as the cardinal directions go. I think in my case it comes partly from the fact that I live down "such & such hwy south" which intersects, at a perpendicular, "such & such other hwy south" -- BOTH of these highways are labeled as N/S highways. Clearly only one of them can be correctly going in a N/S direction.  I can drive up one such highway and then cross another N/S interstate.  So, when the highways/interstates can't even get it right....or are the things by which you navigate your area, and they conflict with one another....it can make that sense of knowing where you are a little difficult. 

[wintermom]

15 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That trailhead will be many turns, canyons, ridges, and creek crossings away. And you'll have packed up the map since then. Nobody is hiking with an unfolded map in front of them. 

Yes, I do. There are map holders to use so that you don't have to carry the map in your hand. This is what all the outdoor ed teachers did in Norway, myself included. I also run with the map in hand when doing orienteering races. It's a combination of map-reading and compass work that's the key. If you get lost, tiangulating with visible landmarks is helpful in finding out exactly where you. When you don't have visibility due to fog or snow, you can use other strategies. 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, wintermom said:

Wouldn't the placement of the trailhead (parkinglot, road, etc.) and the direction it runs give you a big clue? You can orientate a map that way, and then use a compass to verify. 

Most trails wind around and do not have markers every little bit because it is expensive, and disruptive to nature. DNR only do minimal maintenance to trails that are not ADA accessible. So in the spring the way can be obscured by mud, branches downed during the hard winter, new growth, etc.  Also, a lot of hikers are not on mapped trails either. Depends on what level of hiking you are doing. If you hike through Porcupine Wilderness Stare Park which is huge and dense, and leave the ADA accessible walkways, you can get lost quickly if you don't have a good sense of direction. Ask me how I know! 😠😠😠 Stupid 16 year old brother to 12 year old me, "Let's take a hike. I know the way." Nope. 2 years in Boy Scouts did him NO good. 3 hours of turning circles later I was the one that said camp was on the northeast side of the lake, and I would be the one taking the lead. I looked at the sun, determined the direction we needed to go, and got us back to camp though his bruised little ego couldn't handle it so before we came in sight of our parents (just coming back from fishing), he had to run ahead of me so it looked like HE had been Mr. Responsible. 

[Scarlett]

26 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Well it felt you started this thread to laugh at a helpful girl who gave you directions, but she didn't fit into your definition of helpful. I can only imagine the story she'd be telling her coworker, "This lady didn't appreciate all the good information I provided. She only needed to drill into my head that I should have known where north was."

She served us both breakfast and lunch and we had great conversations. I am not sure why you think I did not show appreciation for her helpfulness. 
 

She is the one who laughed and said she had no idea where north was because she is a millennial. I told her that she did indeed know a lot about the park and I was sure if she thought about it she would also know where N is. If she is annoyed by a customer pointing out where N is when she,  as part of her job is giving directions to people well I wouldn’t  know what to say to that . 
 

My experience is that people of all ages do not know their directions. She was the one who mentioned millennials. 

[Scarlett]

Every time we talk about this subject people always chime in to say they don’t know directions either. I am not saying that it is something everyone needs to know at every second of their life but for Pete’s sake if you know the direction the sun sets then you should for sure know where N is. 
And I think people should know which direction their house faces. And if their business is in the north side of the street or the south side. 

[Scarlett]

I also think it is likely she will tell that story and be like, ‘hey look what I learned today’. 

[TexasProud]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Every time we talk about this subject people always chime in to say they don’t know directions either. I am not saying that it is something everyone needs to know at every second of their life but for Pete’s sake if you know the direction the sun sets then you should for sure know where N is. 
And I think people should know which direction their house faces. And if their business is in the north side of the street or the south side. 

Why?  Who cares.  I don't care. i don't have a clue what direction my house faces. It doesn't impact my life.

[wathe]

Ways of Navigating is super interesting to me.   Especially how one's hometown influences this

I grew up in a grid city, and totally grew up using NS/EW relational model to navigate.  The lake was south (and generally downhill).  I would expect directions to include cardinal directions: Take such and such route east, then north on such and such.  Absolute, and easier to get unlost if you get turned around because north is north no matter which way you are facing.

DH grew up in a city with a street layout that was a delightful spaghetti noodle mess.  He navigates by landmarks, and expects directions to be turn left/turn right at the XYZ.   (and even worse, by landmarks that aren't there anymore:  eg "Turn left where the Reddi Chef used to be").  Relative, and harder for me to get unlost, because L or R turn changes depending on which way you are facing

This caused some friction early in our relationship, especially on road trips.  Most memorably when I was sure we were going the wrong way (and we were) because the river was on the wrong side -- did not compute for him at all.  This is all in the pre-GPS era.

Another example:  My kids and I participated in a youth exchange to the far north (north shore of Baffin Island) exchange a few years ago.  We spent a lot of time on the land, both in the north, and in our home community back south with our Inuit exchange partners.  Navigation by cardinal direction is much less useful in the high arctic: compasses don't work; and the sun is also useless for much of the year as it is either absent, or just circles straight overhead 24/7.  I had some fantastic conversations about this with our Inuit guides.  They told us that they navigate primarily by landmarks (hence the importance of navigational inukshuks, which we used) and close familiarity with their land which they know intimately.  Interestingly, while hiking in our home community back south (in large groups, on well marked, short, "easy" trails), our Inuit guests got lost multiple times; because of the trees, they "could not see".  Different ways of knowing.

Edited May 7 by wathe

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Why?  Who cares.  I don't care. i don't have a clue what direction my house faces. It doesn't impact my life.

You don't know if you can see a sunset or a sunrise from your window or whether the porch gets afternoon or morning sun or which side of the house you can only plant shade plants? 

Fwiw, my mental health dramatically improved when I moved to an office on the South side of the building at work, and when I swapped the guest bedroom and my study at home in order to have the South room. Knowing which rooms face south has been life-changing for me. I'm not exaggerating.

[Laura Corin]

28 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

And I think people should know which direction their house faces. And if their business is in the north side of the street or the south side. 

I know which way my house faces - West - but I would have to calculate north. Sunset and sunrise are important to me but north is not.

I've never lived anywhere where people identified businesses as on the north or south side of the street. No grid, no idea.

[TexasProud]

17 minutes ago, regentrude said:

 

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, regentrude said:

You don't know if you can see a sunset or a sunrise from your window or whether the porch gets afternoon or morning sun or which side of the house you can only plant shade plants? 

Fwiw, my mental health dramatically improved when I moved to an office on the South side of the building at work, and when I swapped the guest bedroom and my study at home in order to have the South room. Knowing which rooms face south has been life-changing for me. I'm not exaggerating.

Too many trees to see sunrise or sunset from anywhere.   No, I don't have a clue about those things. None at all.  But  my husband handles all the outside stuff. 

[wintermom]

51 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

She served us both breakfast and lunch and we had great conversations. I am not sure why you think I did not show appreciation for her helpfulness. 
 

She is the one who laughed and said she had no idea where north was because she is a millennial. I told her that she did indeed know a lot about the park and I was sure if she thought about it she would also know where N is. If she is annoyed by a customer pointing out where N is when she,  as part of her job is giving directions to people well I wouldn’t  know what to say to that . 
 

My experience is that people of all ages do not know their directions. She was the one who mentioned millennials. 

Your ending quote of the OP "Another millennial saved by Scarlett" is hard to gage the intent via text. It sure comes off as sounding smug, but whatever. You do you, and I'll learn that I shouldn't take people so literally. 

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Your ending quote of the OP "Another millennial saved by Scarlett" is hard to gage the intent via text. It sure comes off as sounding smug, but whatever. You do you, and I'll learn that I shouldn't take people so literally. 

It was meant to be tongue in cheek but I can see where it wound sound smug. 

[TexasProud]

20 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Your ending quote of the OP "Another millennial saved by Scarlett" is hard to gage the intent via text. It sure comes off as sounding smug, but whatever. You do you, and I'll learn that I shouldn't take people so literally. 

Yeah...that made me mad.

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yeah...that made me mad.

Really? I mean how in the world would I possibly be saving a girl by imparting one bit of info to her.🤔 And me saying I was just telling a cute story? 
oh well I guess at least 9 people saw the humor in my remark. 

Edited May 7 by Scarlett

[TexasProud]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Really? I mean how in the world would I possibly be saving a girl by imparting one bit of info to her.🤔 

You were insulting her ( and triggered me) that I am stupid for not knowing.  And feeling stupid is a huge trigger for me. 

[Scarlett]

Just now, TexasProud said:

You were insulting her ( and triggered me) that I am stupid for not knowing.  And feeling stupid is a huge trigger for me. 

Wait do you feel stupid for not knowing or do you have no interest in knowing? 

I have learned that not everyone has the same curiosity about the same things. 

[Indigo Blue]

53 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Really? I mean how in the world would I possibly be saving a girl by imparting one bit of info to her.🤔 And me saying I was just telling a cute story? 
oh well I guess at least 9 people saw the humor in my remark. 

You were just trying to be funny. 

[TexasProud]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Wait do you feel stupid for not knowing or do you have no interest in knowing? 

I have learned that not everyone has the same curiosity about the same things. 

making a derogatory comment like "saving her" from her lack of knowledge made me hark back to what my dad did to me all the time. Little bitty comments like that can make you feel incredibly stupid.  They just can.  They ( you, which I realize you may not have meant) want to show how superior in knowledge you are and us poor little ignorant people need to be saved with your special knowledge.  That is what I heard, though I understand not what you meant.