Thanks

[Drama Llama]

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Edited May 2 by Drama Llama

[SHP]

A very close friend of mine was killed by a drunk driver so my kids know how serious drinking and driving is. 

My kids know that they can call either of us and any of several predetermined family friends at any time no questions asked to be picked up. They also have access to ride share if needed and can use it whenever no questions asked, I don't care how old they are or where they are, I will happily pay for it. 

I want my children, and possibly one day grandchildren, no matter how old, to refuse to get in a car with someone who has been drinking, to the point of calling 911. If they are 9 years old hanging with auntie doing something and auntie decides to drink, I encourage them to raise hell and refuse to go with them. Cops get called? Great, they can deal with the drunk auntie until I get there. Drunk auntie will prefer dealing with the cops to being the focus of my rage anyway.

 

[-----]

nm

Edited July 15 by kathyl

[Terabith]

This was actually a tricky subject for us, because my kids are pretty black and white thinkers, and when they were little, we had living in our house 1) me, who essentially doesn't drink (once in a very rare while will I have part of a drink), 2) my husband, who drinks a beer or a drink with a shot of whiskey or bourbon most nights but not every night, and 3) our housemate, who probably meets most standards for alcoholism but could go cold turkey when necessary so maybe not?  He didn't drink during the day or when he'd be driving, but when he was home for the night, he'd drink a truly prodigious amount.  We needed them to know that they did not get in a car with someone who is drunk, but we also needed them to know that because Dad drank a beer last Wednesday night, doesn't mean he was impaired on Friday morning.

So somewhere around age 5 or 6 I taught my oldest math.  My younger one couldn't handle this until way later, but she couldn't have handled confrontation anyway, and it was our responsibility to protect them from riding with people who might have been drinking.  So, for one thing, we very strictly limited who could transport them, which was simple because "you don't ride anywhere unless they have YOUR car seat."  But I also explained that for people over 21, for about each hundred pounds a person weighs (and almost all adults were at least a hundred pounds), they could clear one beer, a glass of wine (explained what constituted a glass of wine) or a shot of hard liquor per hour.  So if Dad drank a beer at 6 pm, and was driving you for ice cream at 8 pm, that was fine, but if Uncle Kendel had drunk twelve beers at 6 pm, you did not get in the car with him at 8 pm.  

I mean, if there was any doubt, I drove.  But if we had left it at "don't ride with anyone who has been drinking," the definition of "has been drinking" was going to be so nebulous in my older paladin's mind that anyone who had a sip of champagne at New Year's would be considered unsafe to ride with in March.  

[Drama Llama]

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Edited May 2 by Drama Llama

[SHP]

Just now, Drama Llama said:

That's pretty much what we have told our kids.  One of the kids in our extended family put out exactly that kind of crisis call, so we're dealing with the aftermath here.  

 

Go extended family kid! Buy them an ice cream or whatever kids these days like. Heck, tell them random person on the internet says they were brave and did the right thing. 

 

I hope the rest of the adults involved are supportive of kid

[Carol in Cal.]

I was fortunate that this was not an issue as we did most of the driving, and the only others who did were people we knew personally.  There was one friend of mine who was a fantastic mother EXCEPT that her mother was an alcoholic who did drive the kids around UTI and so DD was not allowed to visit there BECAUSE my friend was unable to stand up to her mother, something I found remarkable but quite clearly the case.

I explicitly told DD about people I knew or had observed who were messed up by drugs, and taught her how to turn them down.  (key!)

And I told her that no matter where she was or what time it was I would always come and get her, no questions asked, to help her be safe, whether that was because someone unexpectedly started drinking or whatever.  I only had to do this once or twice, but I kept my word and cheerfully got up, threw on clothes and went and got her.  We also had a code for “Do exactly what I say for safety reasons right now with no argument” and another one for “Mom, I need you to find me now.”  Those were both promised and understood to trump everything else.
 

[TheReader]

Our kids are also/were also pretty literal, so "don't go with someone who's been drinking" would also have meant if we were at a family party and Dad had a beer at lunch, and left at dinner, "well, Dad drank, so mom has to drive" (which, I mean, I would, but also, not necessary). 

So we told them similarly to Terabith. 

But also we told them things once they were driving that I haven't seen mentioned, maybe since we're talking about little kids riding with others, but throwing it out anyway -- we reminded them not to *drive* after a drink (again referring the drinks/hour thing), and not to let anyone in their car bring alcohol (open) with them. 

[Katy]

I’m so curious and nosy about who did what. 

[Drama Llama]

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Edited May 2 by Drama Llama

[SKL]

"Contact me any time for any reason and I'll come and drive you home."

Actually, when my kids were younger, this would probably have fallen under "don't ever get in anyone's car unless you have my prior permission."  I don't recall ever telling them "if you think the person who's about to drive you somewhere is impaired, give me a call."  Maybe I should have though.  (Or maybe I did ... I really don't remember.)

In practice, it's almost always been my car driving other people's kids around.  My kids have never reported a suspicion that a person driving them had been drinking.  I do know some people who have an alcohol problem, and there is no way I'd let them drive my kids (or me!) unless it was a dire emergency.  Of course it's always possible another kid's parent has a habit I don't know about.

Edited April 29 by SKL

[SKL]

Llama, I am proud of the kid who texted and I totally agree with what Grandpa did.

Maybe the drinkers weren't impaired, but no harm, no foul.  If they aren't impaired, then they should be logical enough to understand that kids can't calculate grownups' impairment levels.

Next time, if they MUST drink alcohol before driving kids, maybe there should be an advance discussion like:  "I'm going to have one glass of wine with dinner, which is not enough to make me an impaired driver.  If I drink more than one alcoholic drink, then I should not drive."  And then the kids can observe and decide.  Or better yet, maybe they could forego the wine when they're driving kids around.

[Arcadia]

My FIL would behave exactly like your family member. He would actually say rather loudly that he drink less than the DUI limit so he won’t get a ticket and he can hold a drink very well. 
 

ETA:

My kids are well aware from young because DUI fatalities are often in the news. So far they have never been a passenger without me being in the same car. My oldest took Uber for the first time last month by himself. If the driver or passenger is obviously drunk, he would have just rejected and call for another Uber. Luckily we have never encountered an obviously drunk driver or passenger. 

Edited April 29 by Arcadia

[BusyMom5]

I am very proud of this young teen- it is not their place to judge how much alcohol is too much to drive, so the best solution is one drink= don't drive.  

We haven't had much occasion for our younger kids to be out riding with anyone who does drink socially,  and the one family member who did drink around our kids when they were little passed away before we needed to have this conversation. 

Now- my teens and college kids get a much different conversation,  especially the college kids!  Be the designated driver, always be on the watch for alcohol poisoning, if you can avoid getting on the road at high risk times (after big football games, party days, etc), then do!  Alcohol= Uber or spend the night- no exceptions.  My oldest DDs first month at college was a total shocker- drunk kids everywhere, often puking, and sometimes in her dorm bathroom!  Puke in the elevator on the weekends.  Knowing people who had to call 911, ambulance and stomach pumped- it was like suddenly all those things I told her about were real, not just mom over-reacting and worrying.  

[SHP]

Kid was right.

Grandpa was right. 

Other family member was wrong. 

[Soror]

My younger kids never had an occasion to ride with anyone who was drinking. For my older kids they are are told we will pick them up any time and anywhere, no questions asked. Dh's uncle died at a young age due to drinking and driving. It was a huge deal in their family and drilled over and over, don't drink and drive. 

[73349]

The message kids get needs to be, "If you don't feel safe, reach out to us and we'll be there for you," not, "Trust the judgment of the person who's making you uncomfortable."

Even if the driver isn't impaired in a legal sense, a passenger with doubts is completely right to secure another ride.

I would be happy to go pick a loved one up.

[HomeAgain]

20 minutes ago, 73349 said:

The message kids get needs to be, "If you don't feel safe, reach out to us and we'll be there for you," not, "Trust the judgment of the person who's making you uncomfortable."

Even if the driver isn't impaired in a legal sense, a passenger with doubts is completely right to secure another ride.

I would be happy to go pick a loved one up.

This.

As a parent, I want my kids to call me any time they feel unsafe.  Full stop.  I want them to know they can do that and I will always be there.  We have code words that also give the kid an out, where I will drop everything, yell at him over text and make him come home so that I'm the "bad guy".

The scariest, and best text I ever got was from my then 18/19yo in the middle of the night, telling me thank you for insisting he never get into a car with someone who has been drinking.  His group of friends in college had decided around 2am to go somewhere other than the dorms.  DS pushed them to stay, some left anyway and he went back to his room.  He wasn't comfortable getting in the car even though they said they were fine to drive. That car was the drunk driver on the road that night and did get into an accident.  If he had been there he most likely would have been hurt.  Even if the car had made it to its destination, I am glad ds didn't question himself or what he had been taught.

Our family has a policy of the DD being fully sober.  The only time our children see both of us with a drink is if we are home or other transportation has been arranged.  I worry a little about youngest ds - he's not as level-headed as oldest ds was at the same age and tests the few rules we have a lot more.  He's getting to a point of understanding that these rules are there for really good reasons, but his logic and awareness are not there yet.

[Lecka]

With no other information or context, I would think this was a huge overreaction. 
 

However taking “one glass of wine” out of the picture, and changing it to, a grandchild is uncomfortable out with adults and calls to be picked up, and another adult thinks it warrants being picked up — and I am in favor of it.  
 

There are a million reasons or contexts a child could feel uncomfortable and want to be picked up, and for another adult to think it’s the right thing to do.  
 

For the other adult to make a big deal starting with “all I did was….”  I think is not great.  This adult has better ways to handle this situation I think, this one doesn’t give a great impression.  
 

Edit:  I think it seems like more information could make it come across differently… if the other adult has a history of undermining other people, that would be different, too.  
 

But just overall — I would assume there’s more going on in some way.  Especially because sometimes a person will try to “define the terms” of what happened in a way that there is no way to disagree, how could someone disagree with drinking one glass of wine?  And while I agree with that, personally, I would just think, what if there were other things going on but somehow it’s become about one glass of wine, because that person is setting it up that way.  I don’t think it’s on a child to explain perfectly why they are uncomfortable, or another adult to explain why they believed this child could be uncomfortable with this adult.  

Edited April 29 by Lecka

[Harriet Vane]

1 hour ago, 73349 said:

The message kids get needs to be, "If you don't feel safe, reach out to us and we'll be there for you," not, "Trust the judgment of the person who's making you uncomfortable."

Even if the driver isn't impaired in a legal sense, a passenger with doubts is completely right to secure another ride.

I would be happy to go pick a loved one up.

A thousand times, THIS.

Good for the kid. Good for the grandpa. The embarrassed adult needs to get over themselves.

[katilac]

Ideally, a preteen would have the knowledge already that one drink over the course of dinner is generally fine. If the text had come to me at the beginning of dinner, I probably would have replied that one drink with dinner should be fine, but text again if they felt uncomfortable regardless. 

As the person having the drink, it didn't cause me any extra trouble for someone to come pick them up and drive them, so it wouldn't be a big deal. However, I do think some of the replies on this thread show that a little nuance and context is a good thing that leads to better understanding, and preteen is old enough for that imo.  

One reason I think the nuance is important is because overemphasizing dangers usually leads to kids taking all of your cautions less seriously. If they understand the rule to be that one drink over the course of dinner means the person absolutely cannot safely drive, over time they are going to see for themselves that this is an exaggeration. And if mom and dad exaggerated the danger of that aspect of alcohol, maybe they exaggerated the danger of other aspects as well. Plus, I just think that accurate facts are important. 

 

[SKL]

I agree that one drink with dinner is probably fine, but it is individual.  I think it's unsurprising if a young teen doesn't know the ins and outs of how that works.  Or, maybe the teen knows someone who doesn't tolerate alcohol well, and understandably overgeneralizes that.

We don't drink in my household.  I'm not against people drinking, but I have no desire.  So that means my kids haven't had home exposure to learn the complexities of how much is too much for whom to do what.  And that, in turn, means that my kids don't know their limits, so I don't want them thinking that any amount of drinking followed by driving is OK for them.  (Personally, I get wiped out if I drink half a beer, and I'm an average sized woman.  My sister gets seizures from alcohol.  We're all different.)

I have intentions to give my kids that exposure, but it's easier said than done.  They want to either gulp it or spit it out.  😛  The one who gulped a half a beer became very giddy, but then denied that it had any effect on her.  Kuz drunk people often don't know they are drunk.

I grew up with parents who would just drink occasionally in moderation, and they'd let me try it.  I kinda wish I was like them, but I'm not, and it's not something I'm gonna force.

Edited April 30 by SKL

[Drama Llama]

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Edited May 2 by Drama Llama

[klmama]

People who have "just one drink" can be unaware that they are impaired.  Many years ago I knew a woman who took her dh's car keys away at a party because he was drunk, but while she was driving them home she caused an accident, injuring a child in another car.  Her blood alcohol from one drink was over the limit, and she had no idea.  If an adult who has one drink can't tell if they are safe to drive, why expect a child to know?  It sounds like your family's policy works well, Drama Llama.

[maize]

Err on the side of caution is always a good call when it comes to alcohol or drugs and driving. 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I think it's also important to know that certain medications can impact the metabolism of alcohol.

Just one drink over dinner can be too much.

And how is a child or teen to know this? 

I think your policy is sensible, and I think that it's great that these children have such a strong support system.

[frogger]

Well, my kids have never been stuck in this situation thankfully but they do know they can get a ride.  They also know their father lost his father at 5 years old  because of a drunk driver and my older siblings also lost their father at a young age due to drunk driving so you don't mess around with it.

They are also usually the drivers since I don't like other people's driving and neither do they.  

[Laura Corin]

We told them not to get into a car with someone who has been drinking and we would pick them up/pay for taxis.

Separately from safety ( I don't think that driving after any drink, or driving after a bad night's sleep, etc. is safe) driving after one drink in Scotland can be illegal, as the level is 0.05.

[teachermom2834]

I am unsure what to tell the kids exactly. It’s tough. The only people that really drove my kids around when they were young were absolutely non-drinkers though one ds got upset when Grandpa was drinking a root beer while driving. lol.

As for me, and I do drink on occasion, I just never have a drink when in charge of anyone else’s kid. Even if I know I will be fine and there is plenty of time, etc. I just don’t. I’m just not putting anyone in that position. I know others here will disagree but I almost feel like the adult putting the kids in that position is a lack of judgement even if they know they will be fine to drive. I just think you don’t even give people those worries. Just be beyond reproach. Now, even with my own kids, if I am the driver and say we go to a long show and I get a drink I would say hey I’m going to have a drink because we won’t be leaving for three hours etc. 

I’m of the belief, correct or not, that I could trip an over the limit BAC even when safe to drive and I’m just not fooling with that ever. 

[maize]

5 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

We told them not to get into a car with someone who has been drinking and we would pick them up/pay for taxis.

Separately from safety ( I don't think that driving after any drink, or driving after a bad night's sleep, etc. is safe) driving after one drink in Scotland can be illegal, as the level is 0.05.

That's the DUI level in my state as well.

[Lecka]

Here is my response now:

I personally think a lot of these posts are over-reactions.  
 

But if I was in this situation as the person who drank a glass of wine with dinner — I would not say that!  I would apologize.  I would promise never to do it again.  If I noticed I was not welcome to drive kids again, I would never say a word about it.  
 

Number one, I think it is totally acceptable to see things in this way.  

 

Number two, it’s really weird to send a message to a child “you were wrong to be concerned about drunk driving.”

I think if somebody responds in other ways it risks undermining the other adults plus undermining the child.  
 

I also think that if I was asked to take a side, I would just 100% come down on the side of, a child was uncomfortable and a grandparent on the phone thought it was right to pick up the child.  It doesn’t matter why.  
 

Edit:  if I was in the orbit of this, I am pretty sure I would lose a lot of respect for the adult who drank the wine, not because they drank the wine, but because they are not handling the situation in a mature way.  It just seems off.  

 

 

Edited April 30 by Lecka

[happypamama]

Regardless of what anyone's feelings are about alcohol or anything, I 1000% support a kid who was unsure who texted another adult, and I 1000% support Grandpa who then supported that kid and made sure they were safe. Kids who trust the adults to help them, and adults who show that they will help? As far as I am concerned, that was fantastic. 

 

That being said, we have talked with our kids about nuance and how it depends on how big the person is, how used to alcohol they are, how much food, and so on, while at the same time telling them that if they are unsure, they should not get in a car with someone and they can call Uber, us, whatever. (In fact, if they're ever unsure about any situation, alcohol or otherwise, even if we can't come, they can call us, and we will help them figure out a solution.) I think it's possible to teach kids about responsible alcohol consumption while also not making them decide who is safe to ride with. I would expect a preteen to see it as black and white -- that person drank and I shouldn't get in a car with them -- unless DH or I, or maybe a trusted grandparent or aunt/uncle or older siblings, maybe, were also there to explain. Maybe an older teen or young adult should have had a clue about alcohol processing in that situation, but also, maybe not; many are still very black and white in their thinking, and that seems like a lot for them to judge, especially in a not-everyday situation. For all we know, the adults who drank are lightweights (I am!) who were indeed tipsy after one glass of wine while painting. 

[Drama Llama]

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Edited May 2 by Drama Llama

[katilac]

On 4/29/2024 at 10:14 PM, Drama Llama said:

They weren't at dinner.  They had gone to one of those places where you paint things, with the plan to go to dinner after.  

I guess for me, I don't want my children, making the judgement as to whether someone is safe.  The calculations, of whether or not the adult is eating, and how long between drinking and driving, and how many glasses they've had, and how much they weigh, isn't for a 12 year old to figure out.  So, I do want them to call if they're with an adult that's not me, and they see the adult that's going to be driving them drinking.  That doesn't mean that I think or that I teach them that one drink is always dangerous, just that it's always something that I need to know about.   Having said that, I do think that my FIL's decision was influenced by the fact that he didn't know the driver, and so wasn't able to judge whether this person was someone who could be trusted to stop at just one drink.  It's easy for one drink to turn to too, and then another at dinner . . . 

I think that anyone who feels that strongly about adults not having a single drink over the evening while driving their kids, should simply say so ahead of time and save a lot of trouble. Thanks so much for offering to bring James with you! We do have a family rule about zero alcohol for anyone who is driving that day/evening, but I know not everyone does. Would it be better for me to drive him? 

If I trusted the family member to take my kid, it would be because I would also trust them to not let my kid get in a car when the driver let one drink turn into two, and then three, and so on. 

Those events are called paint & sip, so I really think they should have seen this one coming. 

[SHP]

13 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

I don't drink at all.  But my understanding is that alcohol with and without food effect people differently, so I did want to point out that this was wine without food before they got in the car to drive to dinner, and that the kids didn't know that they would stop at one glass.   The non-family member, who would have been the driver, didn't have more wine at the restaurant, but that might have been because they knew Grandpa was in the parking lot.  The family member had several more drinks, but she wouldn't have been the driver.  It's also possible that she drank more because she was angry, or she wanted to show that Grandpa didn't stop her.  

That family member made the choice to drink more after the kid expressed concerns doesn't give me confidence in their ability to make good decisions. It doesn't matter if she drank because she was angry or to show grandpa. If it had been me in their shoes I would have refrained out of respect for the kid's concerns. But then, I don't drink when I am out and about with minors. 

[katilac]

10 minutes ago, SHP said:

That family member made the choice to drink more after the kid expressed concerns doesn't give me confidence in their ability to make good decisions. It doesn't matter if she drank because she was angry or to show grandpa. If it had been me in their shoes I would have refrained out of respect for the kid's concerns. But then, I don't drink when I am out and about with minors. 

Family member wasn't the driver to begin with, and grandpa was now the driver for the kid, so it makes no difference if she had some drinks. The kid didn't have any further concerns about them drinking, because grandpa was in the parking lot waiting to drive. 

There's nothing to indicate she was nasty about it, it's not like she told grandpa to take the kid home. 

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited May 2 by Drama Llama

[SHP]

9 hours ago, katilac said:

Family member wasn't the driver to begin with, and grandpa was now the driver for the kid, so it makes no difference if she had some drinks. The kid didn't have any further concerns about them drinking, because grandpa was in the parking lot waiting to drive. 

There's nothing to indicate she was nasty about it, it's not like she told grandpa to take the kid home. 

It doesn't matter if she was nasty or not.

Kid wasn't comfortable. The reason kid wasn't comfortable was the drinking. Kid did solve the problem (go kid!) That adult was upset that Kid wasn't comfortable and called and grandpa came. Then adult drank more. In this specific case I think it would have been prudent for the adult to abstain while with Kid. Why? Because that shows she recognized that her having a drink upset the kid and is willing to forgo drinking that day with Kid. 

Maybe I come from a different view of things. If I was hanging with Kid and I did something that would be otherwise normal adult thing and Kid expressed concerns I would apologize to Kid for making them uncomfortable and refrain from that behavior. I would want Kid to know that I heard them and that I respect them enough to not continue. I, as the adult, feel it is important for me to set an example for listening, respecting their boundaries, and changing my behavior.

[SHP]

1 hour ago, Drama Llama said:

This was a 3 p.m. session with a kid friendly painting, targeted at families with children.  But yes, maybe people should have anticipated it.  

The relative absolutely knew people's feelings about drinking and driving.  The new person might not have.  

It sounds like new person picked it up pretty fast and had the decency to not drink anymore. 

 

 

 

[Terabith]

I think the fact that relative’s response to child being uncomfortable and calling Grandpa was to drink more and be angry is probably a good reason for child to be taught not to get in a car with anyone who has been drinking at all.  Relative doesn’t sound like a safe person, and when you have unsafe people in a child’s life, a hard and fast rule is easier for kid to deal with. It’s different than our family’s situation when someone might have had a beer an hour or two before driving but would absolutely not drink if someone was uncomfortable. This relative sounds like someone who might have a problem with alcohol.  

[katilac]

57 minutes ago, SHP said:

It doesn't matter if she was nasty or not.

Kid wasn't comfortable. The reason kid wasn't comfortable was the drinking. Kid did solve the problem (go kid!) That adult was upset that Kid wasn't comfortable and called and grandpa came. Then adult drank more. In this specific case I think it would have been prudent for the adult to abstain while with Kid. Why? Because that shows she recognized that her having a drink upset the kid and is willing to forgo drinking that day with Kid. 

Maybe I come from a different view of things. If I was hanging with Kid and I did something that would be otherwise normal adult thing and Kid expressed concerns I would apologize to Kid for making them uncomfortable and refrain from that behavior. I would want Kid to know that I heard them and that I respect them enough to not continue. I, as the adult, feel it is important for me to set an example for listening, respecting their boundaries, and changing my behavior.

I interpreted the story as the kid being uncomfortable that the driver had a drink, not that they were uncomfortable with anyone they were with having a drink. 

[katilac]

3 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

The relative absolutely knew people's feelings about drinking and driving.   

If the family rule for that kid is zero drinking for the driver over the afternoon/evening for the driver, and she knew that, then she has no standing to argue that she should have been trusted to know the correct amount. As the parent or person in charge of the kid, I wouldn't be discussing it. That person can complain all day long, I don't have to listen, and I cross them off the list of people who can take my kid places. 

[Drama Llama]

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Edited May 2 by Drama Llama

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, katilac said:

If the family rule for that kid is zero drinking for the driver over the afternoon/evening for the driver, and she knew that, then she has no standing to argue that she should have been trusted to know the correct amount. As the parent or person in charge of the kid, I wouldn't be discussing it. That person can complain all day long, I don't have to listen, and I cross them off the list of people who can take my kid places. 

Unfortunately, because the kids are caught in a complicated custody situation, it's not as simple as crossing people off a list.  

 

[Lecka]

Well then I think it’s even more important they can call to be picked up if they aren’t comfortable!  I think that is so valuable for kids.  

[katilac]

6 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

Unfortunately, because the kids are caught in a complicated custody situation, it's not as simple as crossing people off a list.  

Ugh, that sucks.