Help me figure out what to do about visiting my family, like in general

[Terabith]

This isn’t urgent.  We aren’t going for Christmas, but I need to figure out what to do, because I can’t in good conscience never visit my family again.  
 

My family (both parents, my sister and her husband and children, two aunts and an uncle, and several cousins) all live in a small city in what Google says is a bit over 8 hours away but which I have never been able to make in less than ten hours with traffic and stuff.  And in our family, I am the only person who can drive on the interstate, and driving that distance is genuinely physically painful for me for a long time.  
 

My parents love us a lot. They are not bad people.  They mean well.  But my entire life, we’ve been a terrible fit.  We’re not good for each other.  My mother is anxious and ocd and obsessed with what other people think and cares a lot about appearances, and I simply have always been unable to meet her expectations, which sound reasonable but it’s just all awful.  We are just a terrible mismatch and growing up with her was emotionally horrible for me but I have always known she meant well. She has always cared a lot about extended family and wanted us all to be close.  Frankly, I don’t hate my extended family, but I don’t like many of them very much.  I’m not close with my cousins.  I am friends with them on facebook, though I’ve unfollowed at least one cousin. One aunt has Alzheimer’s and probably will die relatively soon.  My sister is six years younger than me, and I admire her and love her but we’re not close at all and have almost nothing in common.  We interact on facebook and send each other’s kids birthday and Christmas presents. Nobody is a narcissist. There have been many deeply hurtful interactions between my mother and I growing up, and I find interacting with her to be hard and fraught and frustrating and filled with drama, and I don’t know what I would do if I had to be solely responsible for her in her old age, because our mismatch is so emotionally challenging for me.  But it isn’t really abusive, and it’s like 90% innocuous interactions to ten percent interactions that cut me to the quick.  When my kids were preschool age, she would come and spend a couple weeks at Christmas and a month to six weeks in the summer with us, and she was helpful and it was okay, but that didn’t really work once we moved to Virginia when my kids were 2 and 4.  We visited a couple times a year for many more years.  There’s tiptoeing and a ton of relational stress between us, but also a lot of kindness and she 100% loves us all.  My father, frankly, doesn’t really interact with any of us much but in a benign, he’s just always in the other room watching tv sort of way.  Five years ago, my parents moved to be near my sister (as in less than five minutes away), and our family interactions got much harder because visiting is no longer just visiting my parents but also my sister and her kids and all the aunts and uncle.  
 

My sister is a lovely person.  I like her.  I like her kids.  Her oldest kid is ten years younger than my oldest and eight years younger than my youngest, and her twins are five years younger than her oldest.  
 

My kids don’t like children.  At all. They find them incredibly stressful to be around. My youngest is autistic, and my oldest is both trans and neurodivergent and my oldest has EXTREME sound sensitivity.  They struggle to exist in our house with noise canceling headphones.  Barking dogs down the street can give them a panic attack.  Three boisterous children is sensory hell for both my kids but especially my oldest.  (My kids are 18 and 20.) There is also never fewer than one and usually two televisions on in my parents’ house (often turned to Fox News) at full blast because neither of them hear well.  

My oldest is non binary, changed their name, uses they/ them pronouns, and has had top surgery and has a non binary marker on their ID.  My family lives in Tennessee, which has laws on the books that make me anxious about them being there.  The odds of real danger are low but not nonexistent.  My family is very good about oldest’s new name but terrible about pronouns, and they’ll rant about trans issues, how awful refugees are (an issue deeply personal for our family; my husband started a nonprofit to help asylum seekers), and other political issues.  
 

The family culture is such that not staying at my parents’ house and getting a hotel would be deeply hurtful.

We went to see my parents for Christmas two years ago, and it was hell. My sister uses my mom for childcare a lot, which my mom loves.  There’s never any schedule given for when my sister will drop one or more kids, who love and desperately want to be with their older cousins all the time, off at my mom’s house.  When children are present, we all have to be playing and interacting with them 100% of the time.  The twins are only five.  My kids tried so hard to keep it together at my parents’ house for a week, but my oldest, in particular, couldn’t and spent a ton of time in one of the two guest rooms we get there with noise cancelling headphones, and my mother was deeply hurt about how rude my oldest was for not interacting enough with their cousins. My youngest, who hates children, tried gamely to pick up the slack and play games and socialize, but it was just never enough.  There’s never car seats left, so taking whatever cousin has been dropped at my mom’s house, sometimes for ten hours, to a park or somewhere out so that there’s something else to focus on isn’t an option.  One horrible day after we had all spent ten hours or so interacting with kids and my parents and existing with the TVs and meeting with extended family my kids don’t know at all, we were exhausted and at the end of our ropes, and had been counting down the minutes to bedtime when everyone would leave, and my oldest nephew asked to stay and spend the night too. I said no.  My mom said yes.  My kids went to their room and put on headphones and I “went to bed” at 8 pm, and my husband stayed up and interacted with my nephew for a couple more hours and my mom went ballistic about how rude we were to our blood kin and how he’s not any trouble and just wants to be with us and how awful we all were.  And we were rude, but we were all so beyond exhausted, and my oldest has had a genuine mental health crisis that made them nonfunctional for two years because of too much noise.  No matter how much attention we lavish on these kids, it’s never enough for my mom.  And there’s no way to pace ourselves or manage expectations, because things like sudden sleepover can get sprung last minute.  At the end of that visit I swore that I would never subject my older kid to that again.  We went for spring break last year, when my oldest was at college and “couldn’t come”, and when the kids had school/ day care for a large portion of the day (because their spring break schedules didn’t align), and it was hard and awful but survivable.  This year spring break isn’t going to work for us.  
 

My dad is 80 this year, and my mom is three years younger.  All of their parents died around 80.  Both of my parents seem to be doing relatively fine health wise, but you never know.  What do I do?  Do I literally never have my parents see my oldest kid again?  But how do I subject my oldest to that?  

I just don’t know how to navigate this in a way that doesn’t cause extreme pain to anyone.  My parents don’t guilt trip us about not visiting, but I know they’re hurt that we no longer come the twice a year we did when they didn’t live near my sister. Just dealing with my parents was hard and exhausting but we could manage it, but navigating my sister’s family and the aunts just makes it impossible. I don’t know what to do. 

[Terabith]

Oh, I forgot to mention the two not at all trained dogs my parents have that bark all the time.  
 

I can’t imagine telling my parents that I could meet them somewhere halfway without my sister and her kids.  
 

And I would like to see my sister (and I guess her exhausting, very intense kids) in smaller doses.  But my kids just can’t handle it.  My husband “works remotely” when we go. (He genuinely does work, but my parents are under the impression that he’s far less able to get time off than he is.)

Edited December 17, 2023 by Terabith

[Terabith]

My parents don’t know about my oldest’s top surgery, and I don’t know how they’ll react if they wear a suit instead of a dress to whatever funeral we inevitably wind up going back for. 

[El...]

I'm sorry. That's a lot. 

It may not be workable for your situation, but #1, I'd be staying in a hotel. You've got to be able to leave for an hour long nap, and at night.

[SKL]

Since your kids are adults, I think it would be very understandable to just say you can only stay a day or two as a result of everyone's work schedules.  There will even be times when someone can't come at all.

Rather than travel there every year, I'd save for plane tickets to travel there about half as often.  That way it won't be more driving than visiting.

As for hating kids or having different politics, I'm sorry, but those are not excuses for not visiting close family.

[Chris in VA]

Hi Terabith

I just popped in with my own question, and thought I'd take a stab at yours. 

First, my eldest is autistic, functios well in the world but can't stand conflict or too much noise. My youngest identifies nonbinary but "girl" is fine. My husband's extended fam are conservative in GA. 

Just saying I see some surface similarities. 

I might try the "we are passing through and would like to see you for an afternoon" type visit, just with parents. "On the way back" see your sister for an afternoon and dinner. 

Make it part of a vacation elsewhere. Or maybe you are attending a conference? Idk what you can say. Split up the drive, don't visit upon arrival (sleep first), plan a couple days elsewhere. It sucks taking a week for a two afternoon visit and  minimal fun elsewhere, but it would be a way to see them, minimize trauma, and incorporate at least some fun. 

I think you may just need to be very honest about what your kids can handle, set some very firm boundaries, choose to focus on helping your kids have a decent time over trying not to hurt your mom...

Sorry it stinks

 

[Pawz4me]

How about just you and your DH go for a quick visit? Invent a reason that your kids can't come. And a reason you need to stay in a hotel, if you think you do.

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Since your kids are adults, I think it would be very understandable to just say you can only stay a day or two as a result of everyone's work schedules.  There will even be times when someone can't come at all.

Rather than travel there every year, I'd save for plane tickets to travel there about half as often.  That way it won't be more driving than visiting.

As for hating kids or having different politics, I'm sorry, but those are not excuses for not visiting close family.

Airport locations mean that even flying, drive time wouldn’t cut down travel time enough to make sense.  My kids have never had a job yet.  (Sound sensitivity related.)

[Laura Corin]

I think it's fine for your kids to make very short visits - measured in hours. Granny won't be happy, but the kids have their own lives and needs as adults. Zoom visits are fine too if they 'can't make it'.

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Airport locations mean that even flying, drive time wouldn’t cut down travel time enough to make sense.  My kids have never had a job yet.  (Sound sensitivity related.)

Well if not a job, then some peer group event.

Even if it's a long trip, you need to visit your folks.  Your kids can come less often, but they shouldn't wait until the grandparents' funeral either.

[Drama Llama]

I think that your kids are adults, and they can make their own decisions about whether and how they will visit.  They don't have the same obligation to your parents, and if their decision is not to come, I think that's reasonable.  So, I'd focus on figuring out how you can visit, or you and your husband, rather than the whole family.

My mother is similar, in that she isn't a bad person, she just really doesn't get me and the choices I've made, and the judgment and her constant attempts to change me is hard, and now complicated by grief.  Our situation is different, though, in that my siblings don't see her that often.  Your mother has your sister, and it seems like their relationship benefits both of them.  As someone in a relationship where I get a lot of help from the older generation (on DH's side), it seems reasonable to me that I would also give a lot of help.  If there was a sibling who wasn't getting the same help, I'd think it reasonable for me to provide more help than they would.  

In our family what works are very short structured visits that are optional for the kids. I hear you that you don't want to drive 8 hours, and then turn around and drive 8 hours back.  But could you drive somewhere sort of close by, have a short vacation there, and then drive to your mom's town for a day or two?  Or maybe the reverse, so that you can recuperate?  Or meet halfway and all stay in a hotel, so you can retreat to your own rooms?

[City Mouse]

There is no way to manage this situation without pain for someone or several someone’s. It is going to be hard no matter what you do, soy You are just going to have to pick your hard.

My kids did stop visiting the extended family much after they finished high school. Don’t think that is a terrible situation. I have posted many times that I started a new family tradition of going camping on Thanksgiving for the purpose of avoiding extended family holiday obligations, and I have intentionally avoided visiting my parents on Christmas Day for a long time. - just too many unrealistic expectations.

There is nothing wrong with your kids visiting less often and/or for shorter periods of time. 
Split the drive up into 2 days. That way you can stay in a hotel a couple of hours away. Then spend only 1 night at grandmas house if you feel that you must. Then head home the next day or head to somewhere else. If you feel you need an excuse, you can always use the “I’m getting older and my eyes are getting worse. It is harder to drive so long in one day.”  
 

Plan things to do out of the house and share those plans in advance with everyone. If sister or grandma wants to bring the cousins in a separate car, that’s on them. Or plan things to do for your kids that aren’t for younger kids. For years, I would go get my hair done somewhere while visiting my parents. Go shopping for shoes, or what ever was needed. I even would go out to play Pokemon Go. Anything just to get out of the house for a while. I would even invite my mom to go do things I knew she would refuse to go do, but it got the rest of us out of the house and made the lack of participation her choice. 
 

As much as your mom and sibling “means well”, that is just making excuses for their poor behavior. It isn’t on you and your kids to entertain the rest of the family all day long, and I don’t think it is good to have your kids think that your extended family’s behavior is ok, but I am still coming off a bad situation, and I may be over-sensitive. Even if you don’t feel that you can confront the relatives, I would have a conversation with your kids and remove any unspoken obligations. It isn’t on you or them if grandma or the cousins get upset. 

[Katy]

If/when you go, fly to cut butt in seat time. With airport security and delays it may still be a 10-hour trip, but it will be physically less painful. Rent your own car. Since I’ve never been in a not-noisy hotel, I’d see about renting a nearby house on VRBO. Kiddults can drop you at Grandparents but feel free to go back to rental when needed.

 Grandma’s  complaints about rudeness would be met with a sharp correction about disability and a note that if she didn’t stop complaining and make an effort to understand, that person might never visit again.  Frankly as a straight white woman, I don’t have sensory issues and I’d still be overwhelmed with Fox News blaring lies and twisted anger from every TV. Ouch. 

I’m trying to imagine 5 year olds that seem noisy and chaotic to a preschool teacher and am wondering if they’re going to be neurodivergent too. I doubt they are too old to explain that their cousins are much more sensitive to sounds than they are and need quiet. 

[almondbutterandjelly]

So I also come from a family culture where it can be hurtful to not stay with family.  However, at some point somebody started getting a hotel, and although it was initially shocking, now nobody minds.  You can do it!

Also, I never make my adult age daughter go anywhere she doesn't want.  She's an adult and entitled to her choices.  Relatives will deal with it however they choose.  We are not responsible for their feelings.

Boundaries!  You are allowed to have them.  🙂 

[Longtime Lurker]

Shorter visit. It may seem like it's not worth driving that far for a 2-day stay instead of a week, but if it's easier on everyone, then it is worth it. Long drives are a pain but can be very quiet and peaceful and, thus, not too hard on anyone.

[Jaybee]

I'd probably fly there by myself for a visit, in spite of it not being lots shorter. When I visit family members by myself, I fly, because I don't want to do the long drive by myself; I'm afraid I would fall asleep once it is over 4-5 hrs. The other family members "just couldn't get away this time, so I decided to come on by myself rather than wait any longer." That's a pretty normal stage of life anyway.

This Christmas, our two youngest who are young adults but still living at home, are doing their own thing. One is traveling with us and visiting a few days, then flying out Christmas Day to spend time with another sibling. The other is staying at home to work and spend Christmas Day with a friend's family. Ideally, I'd really like that one to go with us. Realistically, it gets boring for him after a day or two, and he will probably be a lot happier with his plan.

My kids do like kids and are good with them, so it's okay for our family's circumstances (in this case, it is the nieces/nephews). But in your situation, to expect the cousins to be best buds with the differences in ages and personalities seems very unrealistic. Even if your kids loved little ones, it's a lot being around them constantly, especially when you aren't used to it, and my kid-loving kids would at some point say something like, "I'm going to go to my room to read by myself now. No, you can't come this time." And my kids are neurotypical.

As much as I love my kids and grandkids, when we are together, I take little breaks by going to my room for a rest here and there. When we used to stay at my in-laws, with the cousins coming and the TV blaring, etc., I'd slip upstairs for breaks. It was just a lot, and I am neurotypical.

[kirstenhill]

I'd visit without the kids, and not at a holiday.  I think it's ok to say that the kids don't prefer to travel, don't have time, etc.    I think as an adult I rarely saw grandparents any more, and probably would have even more rarely had they been ten hours away.  I think it's awesome if some families are closer and so far my adult DD is still finding time for grandmas, but if she moves further away after college I don't think visiting them will honestly be her priority. 

[Miss Tick]

I might revisit the idea of a hotel or Airbnb. People were hurt when you all went to bed, perhaps the injury of a bedroom in a separate facility would be worth the pay off of having some control over the space. The outrage might fade more quickly than you expect, especially if you are able to lay some ground work ahead of time. It would give you *so* much more control over how your tone is spent.

[lmrich]

It is perfectly ok for you to go by yourself. Look into flights or break the long drive into two days. My adult children rarely visit out of town relatives because of obligations with school, work, and relationships.  

Another hint... be busy and out  of the house while you are there. Is there a nice trail nearby  to hike? Or a great coffee shop to chill  out in? A used  bookstore could occupy a few hours. 

[Innisfree]

Do your parents and sister know about the misophonia? Would your eldest mind having them know?

It sounds to me like having the adults understand that this is a genuine medical issue is half the battle. They need to be prepared to accommodate it to the same degree that they would accommodate any other medical condition. That means they need to choose between having your family stay with them and having their other grandchildren over, just for the few days of your visit. If that’s not possible, what a shame. You understand, so you’ll stay in a hotel because seeing them is so important to you. When they can arrange some quiet time, your kid(s) can visit briefly.

A refresher course on autism might help also, plus some frank talk (if acceptable to your kid) about trans issues and their family. Your kids are entitled to expect basic respect for their selves. Surely loving grandparents, given thinking time and information, can decide to postpone ranting until their grandchildren have left town.

[Innisfree]

Plus, of course, everything that everyone else has said about letting your kids, who are adults, choose how much to expose themselves and under what circumstances. 

Maybe some trips that are just for you would help, along with planning short visits “on the way to/from this other thing.”

[SKL]

Another thought - could you couch it as "I feel bad creating more work / disturbance for the folks as they're getting older, so I'm going to stay at a motel nearby"?

This might be easier if you planned it so you drove up in the middle of the night.  You're just being courteous in taking a motel room rather than bothering people.  And then, there's no point moving your bags again, might as well stay put.

[KSera]

49 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

It sounds to me like having the adults understand that this is a genuine medical issue is half the battle. They need to be prepared to accommodate it to the same degree that they would accommodate any other medical condition. That means they need to choose between having your family stay with them and having their other grandchildren over, just for the few days of your visit.

This is where I would lean heavily as well. Your mom sounds like she’s not suffering from any kind of mental decline that would make this an impossible task? I would just be very direct about sounds being physically painful to your oldest, both when things are loud and when there are multiple sounds happening at the same time. And that between that and dd18 being autistic, they just really can only handle a busy household for short periods of time. If that can’t be understood, then that’s unfortunate as dc won’t be able to join for visits anymore.  

[Carol in Cal.]

If it were me, I would go by myself once per year, and I would look for things to do with the young cousins locally that would make me ‘the fun aunt’.  I would be as warm and cheerful as I reasonably could, but I would not sit in that one house all the time.  Having some ‘away time’ included in my plans would help me to STAY warm and cheerful.  I’d bring along some easy knitting to do if TV is going to be the main activity at home.  

Then also I would try to plan another trip with my whole family along, but be quite mindful of the need to protect my children on that one.  I would have private talks with my sister and my mother about my kids’ medical needs, and say that in order to take good care of them we are going to need to stay in our own place, and not be dropped in on there.  And I’d make that stick.

[Terabith]

Everyone understands about the misophonia in theory, but they don’t really believe or understand it in practice.  In spite of a family full of mental illnesses, nobody really believes that mental illness is anything other than willpower and laziness.  They also don’t really believe my younger is autistic because they don’t act anything like autism is portrayed on television.  
 

My sister’s twins were only three the last time my oldest saw them and four when I saw them last.  They don’t seem abnormally loud or chaotic to me as a preschool teacher, but they are WAY louder or more chaotic than my kids can cope with, and honestly ANY preschooler who is cooped up inside all day is wild and loud.  And we were trapped in the house with them because of the no car seats and the yard isn’t really childproofed (small, busy street, weather that wasn’t cooperative).  When we used to visit my parents when they lived in Georgia, we did lots of sightseeing. A big part is that because there are three kids who are divided and conquered, there was no time we didn’t have at least one kid.  The nine year old got sent with us when we went out to play Pokemon Go, and that was a huge help but still being “on duty.”  My parents are convinced that it’s not safe for anyone to leave the house really, even to walk in the neighborhood.  Part of that is a Fox News fueled paranoia,  but there was someone going around shooting joggers in their suburban neighborhood the last time we went, so I don’t think they’re completely nuts. The last visit was much more manageable, because one, I didn’t take oldest, two we went when kids had school/ daycare (though at least one day a twin came for the day to my mom’s instead of going to daycare, and three I said I had to swim every day for my health and got a week long membership to an athletic club.  We are going three hours away for the eclipse in April and could swing by for a few hours or a night maybe, but we have a hard stop obligation to be home on Tuesday and I’m worried eclipse traffic will make a three hour trip much longer.  I suggested they come see the eclipse, but they claim to be too old.  But that is a genuine possibility.  

[Terabith]

Neither of my parents have any mental decline issues at all.  

[Terabith]

Every time I talk to my mom, she harasses me about how we all dress and the fact that I haven’t done my job as a mother by ensuring my kids present themselves nicely, and what would they wear that’s appropriate to their funeral.  We are all painfully aware that our appearance doesn’t pass muster.  And I have no idea what drama will hit the fan when they realize my oldest has had top surgery.  Crap SERIOUSLY hit the fan when I told my parents ten years ago that I’d had a breast reduction without telling them.  I didn’t tell them because mom had repeatedly told me that she would never abide by my desires for her not to physically show up for my surgery whether I wanted her to or not.  She was worried about what people would think about the fact that she wasn’t there at my bedside when I had surgery.  Because of her frequent declaration that what I wanted about her presence was something I had no choice over, I didn’t tell her until it was over.  
 

And that doesn’t even have the trans issues to grapple with.  

[katilac]

Be responsible for your own actions and emotions, and let everyone else do the same. 

This means you don't tell your nephew 'no' to sleeping at your mom's house, because it's not your place to say yes or no to that.

This means you stay in a hotel. Any negative responses to that are the responsibility of the person having them. You might give an explanation one time, we need to have a certain amount of alone time, and then future questions are met with because that's what we want to do. 

Then you can easily take breaks throughout the day. 

You can do things outside of the house. If you invite others to join and they refuse, that's on them. If you don't invite others to some event and they get offended, that's on them. 

If car seats are never left, specifically ask for car seats to be left. 

How is telling your parents you're staying at a hotel harder or more hurtful than your oldest never visiting? 

If you're parents are able to meet you somewhere halfway, then everyone is automatically in a hotel. Much easier than going there, even if your sister and her kids come. 

Don't worry about future funerals; if oldest decides not to visit now, there is no sense in visiting for a funeral.

The way to not have everybody be shocked at oldest wearing a suit and having had top surgery is to tell them about it ahead of time. Give them a chance to be shocked privately, give them a chance to act right. If they don't, that's on them. Your response to it is on you. You might decide that you will be the only one who visits, and that would be legit. 

You are placing potential problems (parents will be hurt if we stay at a hotel) over actual problems (we lose our minds at their house, and mom gets hurt feelings anyway). 

Decide what works best for you and ANNOUNCE it. 

I'm not making light of it; these things are very difficult to do! But your parents can survive very hurt feelings, and they will get over it and let it go if the relationships are important to them. Do the hard thing in the short-run so that things improve in the long run.

My in-laws once wanted to pay a large portion of a vacation they wanted all of their kids' families to go on. There were a ton of reasons we didn't want to go, including issues with certain family members, but we knew they would find it deeply hurtful if we declined. 

We declined. They were deeply hurt, and I'm sure certain family members were deeply offended, because they ain't stupid, lol. 

Everyone got over it. We remain completely happy with out decision. 

Oh, yeah, at some point we also told them they had to stay at a hotel when visiting. They got over that, too. 

 

[Terabith]

I think my mother also imagines that when they die, my sister and I will talk on the phone daily and go on vacations together and be super close, and the reality is that isn’t likely to happen.  I love my sister.  I like my sister.  But she has two kids who play travel baseball, and all of their travel is baseball related. We might text each other a few times a year when my parents are gone.  There’s no bad feelings.  But we have honestly never been close. 

[katilac]

13 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Everyone understands about the misophonia in theory, but they don’t really believe or understand it in practice.  In spite of a family full of mental illnesses, nobody really believes that mental illness is anything other than willpower and laziness.  They also don’t really believe my younger is autistic because they don’t act anything like autism is portrayed on television.  
 

My sister’s twins were only three the last time my oldest saw them and four when I saw them last.  They don’t seem abnormally loud or chaotic to me as a preschool teacher, but they are WAY louder or more chaotic than my kids can cope with, and honestly ANY preschooler who is cooped up inside all day is wild and loud.  And we were trapped in the house with them because of the no car seats and the yard isn’t really childproofed (small, busy street, weather that wasn’t cooperative).  When we used to visit my parents when they lived in Georgia, we did lots of sightseeing. A big part is that because there are three kids who are divided and conquered, there was no time we didn’t have at least one kid.  The nine year old got sent with us when we went out to play Pokemon Go, and that was a huge help but still being “on duty.”  My parents are convinced that it’s not safe for anyone to leave the house really, even to walk in the neighborhood.  Part of that is a Fox News fueled paranoia,  but there was someone going around shooting joggers in their suburban neighborhood the last time we went, so I don’t think they’re completely nuts. The last visit was much more manageable, because one, I didn’t take oldest, two we went when kids had school/ daycare (though at least one day a twin came for the day to my mom’s instead of going to daycare, and three I said I had to swim every day for my health and got a week long membership to an athletic club.  We are going three hours away for the eclipse in April and could swing by for a few hours or a night maybe, but we have a hard stop obligation to be home on Tuesday and I’m worried eclipse traffic will make a three hour trip much longer.  I suggested they come see the eclipse, but they claim to be too old.  But that is a genuine possibility.  

I would 100% buy two car seats for a week versus being stuck in the house with preschool twins and Fox news, lol. 

Do something else close-ish and make a quick visit is a great strategy. Do yourself a favor and don't invite any of them to the something else. 

5 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Every time I talk to my mom, she harasses me about how we all dress and the fact that I haven’t done my job as a mother by ensuring my kids present themselves nicely, and what would they wear that’s appropriate to their funeral.   
 

Shut this down. "How we dress is up to us, mom, and I'm not going to listen to you complain about it. If you do, I'm going to hang up." 

And then follow through. I had to do the hang up and/or walk away thing with a sibling and a parent, and it worked very well in the long-term (and, in the short-term, they weren't aggravating the shit out of me). It might seem impossible to think of doing so, but it's actually pretty easy once you do it the first time. If they wanted to complain about my rudeness, I hung up then as well, lol 

[SKL]

A thought about the car seats - consider buying a couple of cheap inflatable booster seats to keep at granny's house.  That way they're always there.

[SKL]

I had these for my kids when they were that size.  This allowed others to drive them around as needed.

https://www.amazon.com/BubbleBum-Backless-Inflatable-Booster-Black/dp/B00AQYZCXK

[Clarita]

My suggestion is to get a separate place to stay while you are there. 

7 hours ago, Terabith said:

The family culture is such that not staying at my parents’ house and getting a hotel would be deeply hurtful.

So was my family culture. For my mom and I we simply said that we can't handle it, took full brunt of the blame for not being able to live up to the family's standards of being able to stay at grandmas. Grandma was absolutely offended, and for a while complained about how we weren't living up to her standards and what a disappointment my family was to her. For one entire 2 week vacation that's what we heard from her. Thing is it really only happened for one vacation. (I mean we were told by some of her friends and other family members that she continued to talk about that later but whatever she lives far away.) Other vacations the issue slowly got dropped because it really is more convenient. 

[teachermom2834]

In know you said a hotel isn’t an option and it drives me batty when I post something and lay out parameters in the OP like “a hotel isn’t an option” only to have posters tell me to get a hotel. So I hesitantly say…you should get a hotel.

I realize that is offensive to your parents and it is one more thing making the trip difficult if you offend your parents but there are so many things going on here that there is no good solution. Something has got to give here that is not ideal and the least of all evils here with the biggest payoff is the separate lodging accommodations. It gives you so much flexibility and control that it really minimizes some of the other issues. Even stuff like criticizing your clothing choices isn’t so bad if you can say you are going to go back to the hotel for a rest if it doesn’t stop now. Or just do it without announcing. And just knowing you have that “out” should put everyone at ease a bit. 
 

We had to make my MIL stay at a hotel when she would visit. It was the only way to survive visits. She was furious. But it was the only way to have a visit and it was better than never visiting. So we got over that particular hump and it made alot of other things a bit more manageable- because she would eventually leave at the end of the night. Or if she didn’t like our pillows or bed or shower or whatever she had her own to go to. It cut down on the number of things to have conflict over and gave some space and yes there was the initial conflict of broaching the hotel issue but once that storm passed we had years of the benefit of the arrangement.

Edited December 17, 2023 by teachermom2834

[SKL]

Yeah, I was afraid to tell my folks the first time I planned to be out of the country on Christmas.  (We used to all gather at my folks' house every Christmas.)  It was an unwelcome surprise at first.  But nobody died.  Now my folks know that I may or may not be traveling that day.  It's fine.

The first cut is the deepest, as the song says, but sane people will get over it, and you'll be free from that worry going forward.

[Drama Llama]

Could you meet them at a baseball tournament somewhere with more to do?  So everyone would be in hotel rooms, there would be an activity to structure your time together (I am not a baseball fan, but it’s way better than Fox news) and you could do touristy stuff?

[Corraleno]

31 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Every time I talk to my mom, she harasses me about how we all dress and the fact that I haven’t done my job as a mother by ensuring my kids present themselves nicely, and what would they wear that’s appropriate to their funeral.  We are all painfully aware that our appearance doesn’t pass muster.  And I have no idea what drama will hit the fan when they realize my oldest has had top surgery.  Crap SERIOUSLY hit the fan when I told my parents ten years ago that I’d had a breast reduction without telling them.  I didn’t tell them because mom had repeatedly told me that she would never abide by my desires for her not to physically show up for my surgery whether I wanted her to or not.  She was worried about what people would think about the fact that she wasn’t there at my bedside when I had surgery.  Because of her frequent declaration that what I wanted about her presence was something I had no choice over, I didn’t tell her until it was over.  

And that doesn’t even have the trans issues to grapple with.  

I'm seeing a disconnect here between your descriptions of your mom as a nice person who really loves you and your kids and isn't toxic, and all the rude, disrespectful, boundary-violating behavior you then describe. When you say you can't stay in a hotel or not visit because it would hurt your mom's feelings, you're basically saying that you have a moral obligation to allow yourself and your children to be hurt in order to avoid hurting her by setting very reasonable boundaries. Which is exactly what someone who has been criticized and torn down and disrespected all her life has been trained to feel.

If one of your children was in a relationship with a partner who constantly criticized them and tried to guilt them into subjecting themselves to situations they found extremely painful and exhausting, and told them they were rude or selfish any time they tried to protect themselves by setting any kind of boundary, would you tell your child they were obligated to put up with that because the partner "loves" them and that's all that matters? Or would you tell them that that is not loving behavior and they have the right to set boundaries and to be loved and accepted for who they are?

[rebcoola]

I agree with Corralano, I think your mom sounds kind of terrible.  

 I would leave it up to my kids whether they ever came again.  I would always get a hotel.  Probably all visits would just be a stop by on the way to somewhere else and be very short.

[Terabith]

Oh, there's definitely been some terrible dynamics with my mom.  I mean, I think she really does worry about appearances and clothing because she feels like it's going to affect us in some ways.  I think it's rooted in care and concern.  But she's said some truly horrible things over the years.  And there's insane gaslighting, to the point where I don't know if I can trust my memories or if she genuinely doesn't remember interactions or what.  That's been going on since I was a small child.  

But I think she does love us and want good things for us.  

It's just complicated, and when it comes down to it, neither of us understand each other at all.  

[Katy]

It seems like she cares more about appearances than she does about any of you or your actual feelings. That’s a narcissistic trait, even if she doesn’t have NPD. It’s okay to hurt her feelings over narcissistic or toxic traits. In fact, if you want her behavior to change at all, you’re probably going to force it in situations like this. 

[Danae]

The most important thing is to give up on the idea that there is a perfect solution if only you could find it.

There is no realistic solution where your mom isn’t hurt/offended/disappointed because reality hasn’t bent itself to give her the exact daughter and grandchildren she expected.  

Once you’ve accepted that reality you can stop discarding possible solutions because they will make her hurt/offended/disappointed.  She’s going to be that anyway, so stop taking extra pain onto yourself and your kids in a futile attempt to prevent it.

[Corraleno]

47 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Oh, there's definitely been some terrible dynamics with my mom.  I mean, I think she really does worry about appearances and clothing because she feels like it's going to affect us in some ways.  I think it's rooted in care and concern.  But she's said some truly horrible things over the years.  And there's insane gaslighting, to the point where I don't know if I can trust my memories or if she genuinely doesn't remember interactions or what.  That's been going on since I was a small child.  

But I think she does love us and want good things for us.  

Imagine the dynamics of this relationship in any other context — imagine a friend telling you that her husband constantly puts her down, criticizes her appearance, says terrible things to her, gaslights her to the point where she questions her own memories, etc., and yet the friend excuses all of this toxic behavior by insisting that he only abuses her because he loves her and wants what's best for her (and of course he knows "what's best for her" because she's a failure as human being and can't be trusted to make "correct" decisions about her own life).

If you would think, wow, that friend has been victimized for so long she no longer understands what is normal and healthy so she's defending her own abuser, you'd be right. And yet that's what you're doing. You are excusing toxic behavior on the grounds that the person who abuses and gaslights you and violates normal healthy boundaries is doing it for your own good because she really cares about you.

No, she cares about forcing you to at least appear to be the person she wishes you were and thinks you should be, and she will never love or accept you or your kids for who you are. That. Is. Not. Love. You are not a flawed person who deserves abuse for not being the person your mother thinks you should be, and you have the right to refuse to continue to put up with abuse. You and your children have no obligation to perform the prescribed roles she has assigned to you in a play that she wrote and that is all about her. 

[mominco]

I don't know if anyone suggested this but can you not go? Or can you go alone after Christmas more around New years for a few days and come back?            Can you make an excuse that your kids are busy with school work, Internship or whatever excuse you all can come up with. I am saying this because I did something like this and have not been home in a decade. Every time we go its such an ordeal,Dh and I are from the same city and his mom and dad come from large families(10 and 7 siblings)So lots of cousins and Aunts and Uncles on both sides in a very large city.Everytime we go Mil has to have her way and drags us to everyone of her siblings home! She then makes my DH throw a huge party at her home(catered) and invites the same people!

Then there is my mom who gets insanely jealous if I spend any time with anyone else but her! I finally got done and now refuse to go, Its hard saying no but this is the best decision for my family. We have attended weddings that were in not in my home town. I have cousins who live near me so we do get to see my extended family that way.My 1 sister passed away last year and the other lives near mom and is equally crazy as my mother. So I stay away from it all!

[footballmom]

Could you tell your mom you all truly love the family and would like to visit again and need to structure the visit in a way that everyone’s needs are met - would she prefer you come visit solo or you all come for a shorter visit and stay in a hotel?

[gardenmom5]

Can you stay in a hotel?  your kids can keep their distance from their younger cousins - hang out, read a book, swim in an indoor hotel pool (I'd recommend rash-guard shirts.  males and females wear them, as who wants to walk down hotel hallways in just a bathing suit.  It would reduce public attention.)
Then they only go to your family home for "events" - not just general hanging out.

[-----]

nm

Edited May 30 by kathyl

[Terabith]

I am thinking a hotel is probably the way to go.  And honestly, I don't know when we are going to go next.  I just haven't been able to face it, and the kids are genuinely busy with things and have different schedules, and frankly are all adults now.  I just kinda realized yesterday that my dad is having some health issues that are pretty minor, but that he's also at the age where a lot of his relatives have died, and I'm worrying that my plan of just avoiding them for long while might not be the right thing to do.  

I need to find out about tickets for my youngest's high school graduation and see if I could invite them to come for that (and stay in a hotel).  I don't know if they could or would make that drive, but it's an option.  And I can look into maybe seeing them for a few hours when we go a few hours away for the eclipse.  (I invited them to join us for the eclipse, but they hemmed and hawed, and there's nowhere for them to stay now.) 

I've tried for years to explain to my parents that my kids are not comfortable with their much younger cousins, and my mom is very hurt by the fact that they don't want to be super close to them.  And I think my sister is hurt, too, but two Christmases ago was just so incredibly awful for my kids that I honestly cannot subject oldest to that ever again.  It just isn't fair to them.  

I think I have to be more proactive that if we're going to hang out with cousins, we've got to do it somewhere other than in that danged house.  We've got to make a plan to drive an hour to the zoo, or go to the park or Lowe's or SOMETHING.  Being cooped up with energetic preschoolers in a house is just awful for everyone.  (Fox news isn't on when the kids are around because screens are bad for kids, which I appreciate reduces the noise level somewhat, but it also means that turning Paw Patrol on to give everyone a chill out break also isn't an option I'm allowed to pick.). But ten hours where we bake (in a house with a woman with ocd especially around food safety and cleanliness), play 18 million games of Old Maid and Candyland, Hide and Seek, read some books, and draw.....There's just not enough for the energetic kids to do for so long.  They're bouncing off the walls.  And my go to way of coping with kids of taking them outside of putting them in water just isn't available.  

Oh, did I mention the food situation?  We're trapped in my parents' house there, and they serve the same horrible food every single day, and my kids hate it all, and any suggestions that we go out or something is always shot down.  That Christmas I pointed out that there were going to be 14 people in the house for Christmas Eve and Day, at least three meals, and that one thing of turkey cold cuts was not going to cut it for everyone and could we please buy some food, and I got lambasted and criticized and there was NO FOOD for dinner, and my kids were starving, and I tried to convince my parents to let us go out for Chinese or something, and my parents were just like, "Nobody needs to eat that often," but all we'd had for lunch was the same meager bowls of watery broccoli cheese soup that we'd been eating on all week and that my kids hate but my parents are convinced they love.  

I just have to put my foot down, but I kept unexpectedly being put in situations where I was responsible for a preschooler with no notice for hours and hours and no way to leave the house because of no car seat.  (And they're still in five point restraints.)

[Terabith]

And yes, I know there are some massively dysfunctional dynamics, but I also have figured out over something like 25 years of therapy that my parents are simply not going to change.  Honestly, my mom is MUCH more mellow than she was when I was a kid.  That was a seriously bad dynamic.  And I have realized that I am an adult with my own home, and I have sometimes just been like, "Okay, um, my husband has a work emergency or something and we have to leave like RIGHT NOW." 

But I've tried to save that for really bad dynamics, not just snipping about not having shoes my mom likes.

[-----]

nm

Edited August 30 by kathyl

[Indigo Blue]

I’m sorry, Terabith. I hope you find a good resolution. Hugs.