Beth in SW WA Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 How will multum non multa translate to high school transcripts? I'm re-reading Drew's book today and it really resonates w/ me. The battle in my mind is this: Do we go for depth/true knowledge gained? vs. The Impressive Long List of sources studied (but not at a depth to really benefit the student)? Maybe Drew could tell us how his classical school is approaching this. Anyone feel like chatting about this issue? Thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Here's a link to an article linked from Drew's website. It may not answer your question, but is worthy of reading. I plan on using LCC as the foundation for our high school, but I am not near there yet. I'd love to here how others are dealing with this too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elohcin Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 (edited) What I want to know is can you somehow achieve both. Can you do an Omnibus type education going through a quantity of good books and still take some books and/or topics and slowwwly drink them in. Or are they mutually exclusive? Hmmm... I look at what we do now and we kinda do both now-VP and Charlotte Masony/LCC approach. I want to think it is possible. What I am not sure of is, which is best-depth/breadth or a bit of both. I love the LCC approach, but I also want to introduce my children to lots of great literature. Can you do it all? ETA Great thread topic by the way! Edited December 22, 2008 by Elohcin forgot something! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 (edited) :lurk5: ETA: This link will not work unless you are a member of the LatinClassicalEd YahooGroup. If you are, here's where Drew describes the high school lit program he's teaching. Edited December 22, 2008 by dragons in the flower bed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in MO Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 to your question, but Highlands Latin School (which uses LCC, I believe) has this Summer Reading List on their website. As you'll note, their students read for breadth during the summers, but I believe their academic school year calendar includes a more focused literature research. In other words, it appears that students read a lot during the summer for that broad exposure to books, but more focused during the school year. I hope Plaid Dad chimes in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in AL Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Here's a link to Drew's recommended reading list for a high school: http://www.latincentered.com/node/341 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cajun.classical Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 What I want to know is can you somehow achieve both. Can you do an Omnibus type education going through a quantity of good books and still take some books and/or topics and slowwwly drink them in. Or are they mutually exclusive? Hmmm...I look at what we do now and we kinda do both now-VP and Charlotte Masony/LCC approach. I want to think it is possible. What I am not sure of is, which is best-depth/breadth or a bit of both. I love the LCC approach, but I also want to introduce my children to lots of great literature. Can you do it all? ETA Great thread topic by the way! Great question. This is precisely where I am. We will be starting Omnibus next fall, but like you, I am LCC/CM in my approach as well. So, I am tweaking Omnibus. Slowing down and covering fewer works. I think that when making these decisions we must consider the abilities of each child and teacher. What may be a dizzying, packed overwhelming year to one student, might be just right for another. And what is a good. slow deep pace for one might be too light for others. I also think it is possible to combine both approaches. As someone else mentioned, independent reading and summer reading is a good way to achieve that breadth and exposure, while devoting classtime to a deeper study. We are planning on studying the Omnibus primary readings together and outloud, slowing down, covering fewer works, and experimenting until we find our groove. The easier secondary readings will be on his own. For Omnibus I, that is primarily the Narnia books, which he has read before. So, he'll reread them and we'll have worldview/omnibus discussions. Another way to combine the principles of LCC and Omnibus is that some works are read twice in Omnibus. Once in the Logic cycle and once in their Rhetoric cycle. Theoretically at least reading a book twice at different levels of maturity is one way to study a book deeply. Again, I think a lot depends on the individual student and teacher--and that's a great luxury we homeschoolers have. As a former high school/AP and college literature teacher, (while I embrace the principles of LCC), I feel that Drew's pace is too slow. I think that I can go deeply into a work and still cover more books than he recommends. Personally, I would be bored to tears only covering 3 books in a year. But for someone else, that might be the perfect course load. What's great to me about LCC is the underlying principles of a Deep Education. The exact number of works that can be covered while achieving depth will vary with each student and teacher. just a few thoughts. I've had this on my mind a lot lately as I work on our Omnibus reading list for next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 And I can tell you how it worked out. More or less, anyway. My older one still has a semester to go. I've been doing great books a la TWTM/TWEM for 4 1/2 years now, with both a logic stage son and a rhetoric stage son. We get through about 3 works in depth each year. It took us a whole fall to read Plato's Republic, for example, and another whole fall to read The Inferno. We read slowly aloud together and stop and discuss tons as we go along. It was fun to see Drew's list because it is the first list that I've seen that looks similar to what we do LOL. My older son has a respectable-looking transcript and reading list. On his transcript are: Ancient and Classical Literature and Analysis Medieval and Renaissance Literature and Analysis Enlightenment to Modern Literature and Analysis Science Fiction Speech 1 (community college) Composition 1 (community college) Western History US History and Government Geography Japan Studies Native American Studies Peace Studies (Sorry about the funky formatting - it didn't transfer from the formatted transcript well, and the formatting buttons are now behaving strangely.) Everything is worth 1 credit except geography and the CC classes are 1/2, and Peace Studies is 2 credits. Native American Studies, Japan Studies, Peace Studies and the geography were a little reading and a lot of walking (travel). I include them, though, because they were very much mixed in with the great books we did. They were all peace studies, in their own way, and were a great deal of the "depth" part of his education. We didn't separate literature, history, and peace studies when we were doing them into separate subjects. We just read things, researched them, discussed them, wrote about them, or travelled. I only separated them out on the transcript. The volume was accomplished through extra reading. My sons read for several hours a day during the summer. We usually have a lighter book that we are reading, as well as our in depth one. For example, this year as we read through the foundational documents of the US, we are also reading Canterbury Tales. We did some background work and read the first few stories together at the beginning, and then everyone was enjoying them very much, so we kept reading them. We read a few between every document, or if we are feeling particularly tired one day. Anything that my older one has already read or isn't suitable for the younger one gets read during the summer or as extra reading over a vacation or weekends or something. The extras don't get discussed much, and may or may not be written about. (I have to say, though, that after having done this for 4 years now, my children usually want to tell me all about the books they've read and the movies they've seen, and their telling sounds almost exactly like our literary discussions. I am absolutely astounded!) So- you can have breadth and depth but not a huge amount of breadth unless you have a child who reads very fast and easily. I think letting them read some stuff on their own encourages them to think for themselves. And I think doing the books in depth together is very important for modelling the sorts of things they could be thinking about. -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 (edited) I love the LCC concept so I'd also like to hear more ideas based on it. I'd like to see dd do a modified LCC. I want the depth of LCC but I'm afraid dd would get bored spending so much time on one piece of literature. I wish someone would plan a happy middle ground curriculum. Maybe there is one out there that I don't know about yet. When I read the 2nd edition of LCC recently, I thought even if I started at the beginning with it, dd would not have been ready for the middle school literature suggestions at the suggested times. Perhaps the sequence could be started later but just done in less time. I also have some questions about the preparation and scheduling for high school science, but that's another topic... Edited December 22, 2008 by NJKelli added "science" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedarmom Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 We use Omnibus because the discussion questions are very helpful for me. But I love LCC's philosophy. We too have tried to find our own pace. Going quickly sometimes, and others just slowing down. But, I think I need to re-read LCC. I was getting myself in a panic because I will not finish all of Omnibus's reading this year. Telling myself I am not doing a good enough job of teaching. When the real reason we will not finish is because we took a detour and read more of Dante, per son's request. And we have had some great discussions this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaid Dad Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 The high school where I teach is an interesting mix. The curriculum is largely based on LCC but with a full array of mandatory arts classes in addition to the academics. That makes for a rather fuller plate than you find in the LCC book. All our students this year had been homeschooled up to this point, and their preparation for a classical high school curriculum varied widely. Half of them had had no Latin; some had little or no formal writing or grammar instruction; one needed remedial work in math; none had had logic. What things look like now is not what I expect them to look like when we have grades 7-12 and can really prepare students before they reach 9th grade. All students have Latin, math, and composition daily. Students who came in with the equivalent of Latin I are doing Latin II and Greek I this year, while the others are just doing Latin I. They have Logic, Art (=Drawing and Art History), History, Literature, Theology, Astronomy, Drama, and P.E. once a week each for blocks of 60-120 minutes, depending on the subject. Schola (Latin choir) meets twice. They have a monthly assembly where they perform music, drama, and memory pieces. The upper grades will have Philosophy in place of Logic, and other sciences come in as well. Seniors will also have Mock Trial as part of their U.S. Government course (the latter is required by the state, fwiw). So there are a lot of individual subjects, but most are done only once a week. Interestingly, no one has complained that there are too few books studied. In fact, I had to drop one of the titles from the Literature list because the schedule was too full. (There was some overlap in the curriculum with Drama, so it worked out.) After a few weeks, the students realized that the main difference between homeschooling and the Academy was that their class time was for discussion, not doing reading and written assignments. As one student put it, "Homeschool was all homework!" ;) Of course, some of that is also the difference between high school and middle school, and between classical and other types of curriculum. We are spending a lot of time teaching them time management skills and in some cases basic organizational skills. I spent part of one class session helping them file all their literature handouts in their binders and another showing them how to underline and annotate a book. One student needed to be shown how to write down her assignments in a calendar rather than on random scraps of paper. (I finally realized that their mothers had always done the organizing for them!) But I have been very impressed with how they've risen to the challenge. I run my Lit. class like a college seminar and the discussions have been far better than some of what I sat through as an undergrad. :D So while what we're doing is not exactly LCC as written, it does use the basic formula: (1) languages/math/composition daily, other subjects weekly, and (2) study a few really excellent books in depth. HTH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Drew, thank you for posting, that was very helpful. Also thanks for this reminder... (I finally realized that their mothers had always done the organizing for them!) I may stamp that on my forehead to remind me to teach the organizational skills properly. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted December 23, 2008 Author Share Posted December 23, 2008 One student needed to be shown how to write down her assignments in a calendar rather than on random scraps of paper. HTH! :lol::lol: That is hilarious! Here you are, this accomplished author & PhD, helping high school students sort their binders. I'm glad they transitioned well. BTW, We call it "binder-ize." The school day isn't over 'till you binder-ize. :) I digress.... Drew, seriously, thank you for the re-cap. It is extremely helpful to get a visual of your method, LCC, played out in a "real" high school setting. I can't wait to hear your school-year-in-review next summer. And thanks to all the other replies today. I am picking so much out of the book, on this third reading of it. Great stuff, Drew. You are one bright fellow and we are blessed to have you around. Honored, actually! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in MO Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 It's fascinating to read how applying the principles of LCC are working out at the school. Students do come to schools at all different levels, and it's encouraging to read how you and the other teachers are working with them to bring them all upwards and onwards! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Drew, thanks for the reply. Can you tell me how the drama class is run? Do they do lit analysis and readers theater or are they performance oriented? Great thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaid Dad Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Drew, thanks for the reply. Can you tell me how the drama class is run? Do they do lit analysis and readers theater or are they performance oriented? Great thread! They do units throughout the year that focus on different periods and dramatic styles. For example, this year they began with a story-telling unit, then did Greek tragedy (Medea), then "Tartuffe," and are now working on a scene from "As You Like It." The class is performance oriented, but they do spend a substantial amount of time on understanding the structure and historical background for the plays they study. Technical theater is covered in depth in senior year, and at that point they will do a full production. In general, the arts and athletics part of the curriculum is focused on formation rather than information. These are areas where students have to stretch themselves, work as a team, face fears, and meet challenges beyond the intellectual. That's why they're required classes and not electives or extracurricular activities: they provide a balance to the heavily academic tone of the rest of the curriculum. We can't claim to be educating whole persons if we just train their brains! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenn in CA Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Your school sounds just amazing. I say we all join! Surely you can figure out how to run online athletic programs. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 That's why they're required classes and not electives or extracurricular activities: they provide a balance to the heavily academic tone of the rest of the curriculum. We can't claim to be educating whole persons if we just train their brains! :) And how are home prices in the area? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 My desire to start a cottage school just grows reading stuff like this. Thanks for the great info - again! I tore every bookshelf in the house apart this a.m. looking for my copy of LCC- I am afraid that I loaned it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted December 29, 2008 Author Share Posted December 29, 2008 We use Omnibus because the discussion questions are very helpful for me. But I love LCC's philosophy. We too have tried to find our own pace. Going quickly sometimes, and others just slowing down. But, I think I need to re-read LCC. I was getting myself in a panic because I will not finish all of Omnibus's reading this year. Telling myself I am not doing a good enough job of teaching. When the real reason we will not finish is because we took a detour and read more of Dante, per son's request. And we have had some great discussions this year. My hangup w/ Omni is this: Veritas claims that it equals one credit each of Bible, History & Lit IF you go "by the book." That really pigeon-holes us into doing it only one way. I like the idea of Drew's approach: slower/deeper/less material It seems more freeing to me. Now that I bought Vandivers's lectures for The Iliad & Odyssey, we will be taking it very sssslllllloooowww and there is NO way we will fit in all the Omni primary books. I'm basically tweaking my entire history/lit plan for 9th. And I feel MUCH better about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy in Indy Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Ooooh Beth, You will love Vandiver's lectures on the Iliad and the Odyssey! I sure did this summer. I'll be interested to hear if your children also enjoy and learn from them. I've been looking at my Omnibus II readings for next year. I want to go slower and deeper, but I team with a friend and she likes to cover more. So we compromise. It's a bit of a firehose for the kids, but they are exposed to a lot this way, and can go deeper on their own time if they want to on a particular book/author/topic. FYI: my son was looking for something "good" to read yesterday (grounded from x-box and computer and wasn't time to go to the library yet), so he and I began reading "The Unaborted Socrates" aloud (taking the parts in the dialog). We both enjoyed it very much, and he's excited to continue through the week. Cindy P.S. I'm so glad you're excited about your revised schedule. It sounds like you're planning well for your students' needs and your goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) Hi Cindy! Yes, it feels good to have a "vision" for what's around the corner. I just wrote an article on my blog about LCC. LCC really does make so much sense! I'll grab my copy of The Unaborted Socrates and see if ds wants to play :) Edited January 7, 2009 by Beth in SW WA clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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