Help with 10 year old's Language Arts, science

[dodgeat2]

Hello, I have a very bright son who just turned ten. He is my oldest and I need him to work independently, for the most part, this year.  I also have eight and six year old daughters, a four year old son who wants to "do school", and a crazy two year-old. 

My son reads and comprehends at an upper high school level and would just sit around all day reading from our home library or reorganizing his Pokemon/baseball cards. He is not one that is motivated to do school work unless I schedule it for obviously for him, but he is not defiant and will do what he is told. 

So my basic issue is that he doesn't have enough school work to do on his own - there are programs or methods I would like to use but that require me to be working one on one with him, which I don't have time to do for an hour every day. I need to have him using curriculum that he can do independently and I can discuss with him or check in about later. 

Math and Social Studies and Art/Music are covered, we have programs that work for us in those subjects. For Language Arts, he is currently doing Spelling Workout Level E and Rod and Staff Grade 4 English (which does require a little involvement from me). Since we already have spelling and grammar, I don't want to buy or use something that goes too in depth in those areas, but a little overlap is fine. We have used English Lessons through Literature and Cottage Press workbooks in the past, but for some reason neither was a good fit. We lean towards Charlotte Mason style in that I prefer narration and dictation or at least high order thinking skills over closed comprehension questions and busy work. What I would like is a program that uses literature to teach reading comprehension/analysis and writing. 

I have the Complete Writer guide for Writing with Ease but it has been too much work trying to implement the program from the guide. Maybe the workbooks would be an option for us. 

Sometimes it is hard to place him in a level because he is advanced in reading and comprehension (i.e. he doesn't want to answer questions about Farmer Boy, which he read at 5 years old), but sometimes the junior high books become mature in subject matter. 

I am also looking for a science program that is inexpensive and he can do independently, that is light on experiments. 

Thank you for your help! 

 

[Nm.]

.  Rod and staff English is enough for writing all on its own.  

Edited September 18, 2023 by Nm.

[seemesew]

Have you looked at the good and the beautiful? My kids are doing well with it and by level 5 (possibly 4) my kids are basically independent with me spending about 5-10 minutes with them checking in and doing a few short things like dictation or reading an assigned passage out loud to me. 

[A.M.]

The Creative Writer perhaps?

It covers literary skills through writing.

[8filltheheart]

Developing quality writing skills requires instruction with direct feedback.  Where he currently stands as a writer impacts just how productive he can be semi-independently.  A gifted 10 yo who can already write cohesive paragraphs is much more equipped to work independently on writing than a 10 yo whose paragraphs don't have controlling topic sentences with supporting details that stay on topic. 

If he has mastered paragraph construction, I would recommend having him focus on writing a short summary of whatever he is learning in science or what he read in lit.  At 10, I would not worry about any analysis.  Writing analytically is a skill that is better developed once all basic writing skills are mastered (controlling topic paragraph, transitions, developed supporting paragraphs).  Think about it in terms of mastering letter formation.  Are kids who are learning to form their letters able to concentrate on forming letters, spelling, and creating sentences simultaneously?  Focusing on a beginning skill inhibits proper development of more complex skills.  A child is far better served mastering how to write their letters before being expected to use those letters to produce independently created writing.  

For science, I would let him read through stacks of science themed books.  He does not need to use a science curriculum.  Whole books on science topics is an excellent way to build a science foundation.  (I have taken this approach with all of my kids until they are ready for high school equivalent courses---what grade that is has depended on the child.)  FWIW, my kids have gone on to major in chemical engineering, physics, and atmospheric science.  Their science foundation has exceeded what they have needed to succeed.  (Another fwiw, all high school and introductory college science classes teach from the expectation of no background knowledge. )

[chiguirre]

11 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

Developing quality writing skills requires instruction with direct feedback.  Where he currently stands as a writer impacts just how productive he can be semi-independently.  A gifted 10 yo who can already write cohesive paragraphs is much more equipped to work independently on writing than a 10 yo whose paragraphs don't have controlling topic sentences with supporting details that stay on topic. 

 

8 is right about the importance of developing good writing skills. I'd just like to add that you don't have to sit and watch him write a paragraph. You can sit with him for 5 minutes and make sure he has a topic sentence and knows where to look for supporting details, then send him off to write. When he's finished, you can sit with him again for 5 minutes to make sure he's used the topic sentence, that his supporting details work and identify any punctuation or word choice issues. Rinse and repeat daily (that stack of science books is an awesome source of paragraph writing material) and by the end of the year, you'll have a master of paragraph writing who is ready to move on to essays.

PS: At 10, he should be learning to type if he hasn't already. That is something he can do by himself using a game. 

[dodgeat2]

Thank you, everyone.  

35 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

Developing quality writing skills requires instruction with direct feedback.  Where he currently stands as a writer impacts just how productive he can be semi-independently.  A gifted 10 yo who can already write cohesive paragraphs is much more equipped to work independently on writing than a 10 yo whose paragraphs don't have controlling topic sentences with supporting details that stay on topic. 

If he has mastered paragraph construction, I would recommend having him focus on writing a short summary of whatever he is learning in science or what he read in lit.  At 10, I would not worry about any analysis.  Writing analytically is a skill that is better developed once all basic writing skills are mastered (controlling topic paragraph, transitions, developed supporting paragraphs).  Think about it in terms of mastering letter formation.  Are kids who are learning to form their letters able to concentrate on forming letters, spelling, and creating sentences simultaneously?  Focusing on a beginning skill inhibits proper development of more complex skills.  A child is far better served mastering how to write their letters before being expected to use those letters to produce independently created writing.  

For science, I would let him read through stacks of science themed books.  He does not need to use a science curriculum.  Whole books on science topics is an excellent way to build a science foundation.  (I have taken this approach with all of my kids until they are ready for high school equivalent courses---what grade that is has depended on the child.)  FWIW, my kids have gone on to major in chemical engineering, physics, and atmospheric science.  Their science foundation has exceeded what they have needed to succeed.  (Another fwiw, all high school and introductory college science classes teach from the expectation of no background knowledge. )

I do not know that I would say he is able to to write cohesive paragraphs. I haven't ever really asked him to, other than in copywork. His reading and (physical) writing skills are not well matched, most of that having to do with coordination and motor skills delays - possibly what you might label dyspraxia. He has a very intuitive knowledge of the English language and a large working vocabulary, but has a hard time getting his words from his brain to the paper in an organized format. He has mostly done copywork, dictation, sentence combining, grammar work, etc. I have started dictating his own sentences back to him for him to write. We haven't started in with paragraphs, but I think he would catch on to the format very quickly if he were to dictate his paragraph to me to write/type. I just think it will take a little longer with direct instruction for him to be able to write a cohesive paragraph on his own. 

I'm just not sure where to go from here, with the small amount of time we have with each other, one on one, and the limited energy and time I have for planning. I'm not sure what to use, that would be already planned for me, that will take him from copywork and dictation to the next step of being an independent writer. Once he is independent, it will be so much easier for me to give him those kind of science and social studies assignments without a curriculum/just using books, like you said. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by dodgeat2

[8filltheheart]

I would take the approach that reading through science and history books independently is fully appropriate for a 10 yr old while writing instruction is on par priority with math instruction.

I have 8 kids with very different abilities.  My 2nd child is autistic and was (and even is now as an adult) incredibly time consuming.  I had to find ways to make homeschooling work with older kids, younger kids, toddlers, and babies while dealing with him as well.  Prioritizing math and writing instruction was the best call I could have ever made.  As @chiguirre stated, it doesn't require sitting with them while they are writing, but it does require providing guidance and feedback.  

FWIW, when my oldest was that age (or maybe a yr or so older), he and I would get up early before anyone else was awake so that I could work with him one-on-one without constant interruptions.  He could then go and work independently bc he knew what he was doing.  It is a practice that I continued with my next 2 after my autistic ds as well.  I didn't need to with my youngest 4 bc our household was functioning completely differently by then.

Pt being, I would recommend being creative in trying to find time to work with him one-on-one.  It doesn't have to be a lot of time.  10-15 mins makes all the difference.  Enabling him to master writing well correctly from the beginning means you don't waste time undoing bad habits later (which is much harder to do).  It also means greater independent functioning later on.

[ScoutTN]

Agreeing that writing requires your involvement and should be a priority. A 10 year old is still going to need a lot of interaction and direction. Not every minute, but multiple times every day. 

Beware the myth of students who work truly independently at a young age. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by ScoutTN

[Nm.]

She’s already teaching explicit writing instruction through rod and staff.  I also have quite a few children and getting up early to work one on one with two of my children (my oldest and my second oldest) has made it so much easier to get to everyone’s needs.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Nm.

[Servant4Christ]

@Nm. I wouldn't assume that writing is being explicitly taught just because OP stated they are using R&S English. There are many on here who only use R&S English for grammar and choose to skip the writing assignments in favor of another writing program. 

OP, I don't have any suggestions for writing as I myself am struggling to teach writing using R&S English. I will mention, though, that R&S does have science that is inexpensive and low in experiments. My Oldest has found R&S science very interesting. We use it a grade level ahead so we can finish the whole set before high school. 

[dodgeat2]

6 hours ago, Nm. said:

She’s already teaching explicit writing instruction through rod and staff.  I also have quite a few children and getting up early to work one on one with two of my children (my oldest and my second oldest) has made it so much easier to get to everyone’s needs.

What level Rod and Staff are you doing with him?  For my DS10, with Dyselxia/LD, he is completing Rod and Staff 3 this year.  I teach him the lesson in the student book (<5 minutes).  We set up his notebook together and do a problem from each section (<3 minutes).  He finishes the rest on his own (10 minutes+-). Diagramming is done together.

DD10 without dyselxia or LD, is completing Rod and staff 4.  I read the lesson with her and we go over a problem from each section.  Diagramming is done together.

DS12 is completing 5 this year (maybe 1/2 of 6).  He often starts before me, but my goal is to read the lesson with him, a problem from each, and do all diagramming together.  In level 6 I will make sure to read him the lesson and do a problem from each section.

No extra writing is needed.  I started adding a little bit of writing with original writing strands with DD10 & DS12, but it isn’t really necessary.  I try to teach them the lesson but they often do it by themselves.  We use heart of dakota for these 3 and a lot of it is independent (history, science & additional writing across these areas).

He is doing Level 4 Rod and Staff/Building with Diligence. It seems right at his level. How many lessons do you do per week? 

[SilverMoon]

If you don't have an hour for direct instruction I'd outsource writing (and math for that matter). Outschool has loads of well reviewed classes for that age. 🙂

If you can rearrange your day to provide more direct instruction I'd look at Winning With Writing from Jackris. Lessons are broken into clear days and skills are scaffolded.

The WWE workbooks are loads easier to use than the hardcover text, but still require daily interactions. It can't be completed independently. 

 

For science we're in the "read a pile of books" camp too. Discuss them. By 3rd-4th grade mine were ready for literature based science and could follow a schedule I made ahead of time. My youngest two don't like hands on activities so I didn't bother with experiments. 

[Nm.]

I aim for 4 lessons a week of Rod & Staff English. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Nm.

[ScoutTN]

For books to read without getting into more mature content, choose older books and British books. They often have more complex sentence structure and challenging vocab. 

[Nm.]

R&S teach paragraph writing in the grade 4 book.  Perhaps you haven’t done those lessons yet?

Edited September 20, 2023 by Nm.

[dodgeat2]

Thank you all! Nm., we are only on Lesson 14 of the R&S grade 4 book, so haven't gotten to paragraphs yet. 

We are going to keep going with Rod and Staff English and our spelling book, and I think I will try out Writing Strands Grade 4 and see how that goes.  Thanks everyone for your input. 

[Nm.]

Just a heads up… the original writing strands did not correspond to grade level.  Level 3 is for 8-12 year olds.  4 is for 13-14+. I’m not sure about the newer ones from Masterbooks.

[Ellie]

On 9/17/2023 at 1:00 PM, dodgeat2 said:

Thank you all! Nm., we are only on Lesson 14 of the R&S grade 4 book, so haven't gotten to paragraphs yet. 

We are going to keep going with Rod and Staff English and our spelling book, and I think I will try out Writing Strands Grade 4 and see how that goes.  Thanks everyone for your input. 

It would also be important for him to do all of the assignments in writing, on actual paper (excepting the execises that are supposed to be oral). Even the activities which are not explicitly labled "writing" actually count as writing. I also wouldn't be too focused on "paragraphs." In the real world, not everything we write comes in tidy little packages called "paragraphs," each one with a topic sentence and X number of "supporting sentences."

I love Writing Strands, but honestly, if your ds does all of the R&S assignments in writing as it was intended, your ds will have plenty of writing. And Writing Strands does require your input. You are supposed to go over the beginning of each lesson with him, and correct each little writing assignment, which may mean longer discussions than you might think. WS, while not taking as much time as some writing instruction, is not intended to be done independently.

[Melissa in Australia]

I really wished I had discovered IEW for my older children. It is an excellent writing program. I used it with my 5th child.. You can get science themed books.

I agree with poster who reccomeneded science readers. There are a huge amount of books about descoveries, inventors, Scientists etc.

Weused the readers digest how the series  this is the how the earth works. https://www.wob.com/en-au/books/john-farndon/how-the-earth-works/9780751308303 for our whole 4 year Middle school science cycle. All my kids are very science minded. It was reccomeneded in the 2nd TWTM edition I  think.. It does have science experiments in them, but has such great photos and explorations that we picked and chose which ones to actively Doo and read over  the other ones

Edited September 24, 2023 by Melissa in Australia

[Classically Minded]

On 9/15/2023 at 1:08 PM, dodgeat2 said:

What I would like is a program that uses literature to teach reading comprehension/analysis and writing. 

Writing With Ease Level 3 would be my recommendation for what you described.

I have the Complete Writer guide for Writing with Ease but it has been too much work trying to implement the program from the guide. Maybe the workbooks would be an option for us. 

The workbooks are excellent and sound what you are looking for!  He will do narration and dictation from literature selections that are already in the book.

I am also looking for a science program that is inexpensive and he can do independently, that is light on experiments. 

Masterbook's God's Design has 4 science books (Life; Heaven & Earth; Chemistry & Ecology; Physical World) for grades 3rd-8th and we love them.  Easy daily reading with a workbook that has the questions he can answer on his own.  Minimal work on your part, just for the activities and experiments that come up and doesn't seem like a lot to me but we've only done the Life book so far.

 

 

[Malam]

The issue seems to be the difference between his ability to organize and structure his thoughts for writing (advanced) and his ability to actually get those onto a page via handwriting (on/below level). You've got curriculum for the latter, but have you though of using text to speech or typing to practice the former at his level without being held back by his handwriting skill?