Article in NYT re: Americans losing faith in value of college degree

[BlsdMama]

20 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

and then we get to the place of "what does a high school diploma mean anymore?" and in many places it means remarkably little. 

Businesses often began asking for college degrees because high school diplomas didn't mean as much any more. But many jobs don't necessarily need the college degree for the work itself. 

I've seen it so many times on the job boards that I frequent. 

The job description consists of things that I already do and do very well. But I don't apply because I don't have the college degree and that's a requirement. 

I think many people just don't know what to do. The crushing student loan debt. The students with degrees that are not necessarily very marketable. The very real cost of living increases.

I know so many people who have this idealized mindset that their kids will get married fairly young, the man will have a job, the girl will start having babies and homeschooling them. Of course, they say, money will be tight, but with cooking from scratch and thrifting, they can make it. 

These people don't have kids launched yet. I do. And just between rent increases and gas increases and grocery increases, even dual income young couples are struggling to meet the necessities. And these are young people who are ALREADY living very simply. Thrift stores, no vacations, used cars ,everything I did when I was starting out, and they are still not able to save up for a down payment. 

I'm thinking get those kids some marketable skills. Boys AND GIRLS. They will need them. Whether that includes college or not.  Do some homework. Research who's hiring, where the needs are. Help your kids choose something that works for them. They will likely need some sort of training. That means that they'll need to learn to read well, communicate well. Plumbers HAVE TO DO MATH  if they want to own a business. So do carpenters. And what is the plan if someone gets injured at the ripe old age of 30? 

So much of this I agree with and yet I think some of it is locality. I have two daughters, both married, both have bought a home, both have husbands that have some college but have decided to not pursue a degree at this time. One daughter is staying home and homeschooling and doesn't work, the other works *very* part time (8-12 hours/week, flex.) But we also live in an area of manufacturing so these are families who work OT and have medical benefits, paired with a moderate COL.  

That said, why do people live in high COL? I've lived on the west coast, twice. Big perks but a costly way to raise a family.

DH has multiple degrees. Would we encourage a kid to go our route? It can't be about the numbers. People are internally wired for different areas. I needed an electrician. It took eight phone calls to talk to a human. Eight. And I refuse to think of the hourly charge - this company does odds and ends residential work, but it's pay by the job, not hour. Still... one can't help but calculate $2500/8 = $312 and change per hour. 😕  I was with my dentist for a consult yesterday. 3 hours and $1200 later, and that was spendy too.  Dunno what the answer is, but if I had a kid with daydreams about electrical work or filling cavities, I'd likely not dissuade either.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

So much of this I agree with and yet I think some of it is locality. I have two daughters, both married, both have bought a home, both have husbands that have some college but have decided to not pursue a degree at this time. One daughter is staying home and homeschooling and doesn't work, the other works *very* part time (8-12 hours/week, flex.) But we also live in an area of manufacturing so these are families who work OT and have medical benefits, paired with a moderate COL.  

That said, why do people live in high COL? I've lived on the west coast, twice. Big perks but a costly way to raise a family.

DH has multiple degrees. Would we encourage a kid to go our route? It can't be about the numbers. People are internally wired for different areas. I needed an electrician. It took eight phone calls to talk to a human. Eight. And I refuse to think of the hourly charge - this company does odds and ends residential work, but it's pay by the job, not hour. Still... one can't help but calculate $2500/8 = $312 and change per hour. 😕  I was with my dentist for a consult yesterday. 3 hours and $1200 later, and that was spendy too.  Dunno what the answer is, but if I had a kid with daydreams about electrical work or filling cavities, I'd likely not dissuade either.

People don’t always have a choice about where to live. There are more high-paying jobs in HCOL areas. Sometimes they’re tied to local family too. Also, if you move away, you may never be able to afford coming back. That’s before you get to community amenities…

Edited September 7, 2023 by Sneezyone

[regentrude]

24 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

That said, why do people live in high COL? 

Because that's where the job is?
In some lines of work, you have no control over your location. (We sure didn't dream ending up where we did)

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

That said, why do people live in high COL? I've lived on the west coast, twice. Big perks but a costly way to raise a family.

DH has multiple degrees. Would we encourage a kid to go our route? It can't be about the numbers. People are internally wired for different areas. I needed an electrician. It took eight phone calls to talk to a human. Eight. And I refuse to think of the hourly charge - this company does odds and ends residential work, but it's pay by the job, not hour. Still... one can't help but calculate $2500/8 = $312 and change per hour. 😕

If everyone who lives in a high COL moved to a low COL in order to afford a home or live on less, the cost of housing would go out of sight, supply/demand, and taxes would go through the roof for everyone who lives in the low COL in order to improve the infrastructure and upgrade utilities, water delivery, etc. to accommodate the new housing and influx of humans.

Most low COL are also that way simply because the available jobs are limited. In my county, there is only one business that employs any kind of engineer, the county hospitals are tiny and run on a skeleton staff with no intentions or ability to hire more, the schools are small, etc. The only places anyone can find work is in fast food and gas stations, and none of them pay enough to rent an apartment, pay for used car and car insurance, pay for health insurance (on the market place because these jobs do not come with benefits), tires, car maintenance, uniforms (not provided), utilities, and food. Contractors and tradesmen charge a stout hourly wait, but there isn't enough work to go around so work is spotty, and their annual income is not great. Electrical journeymen make really good money. But for every twelve people who complete the program, only one will be hired or find full time work, and those working independently have high overhead costs and out of pocket expenses which makes their profit much lower than one would expect given what they charge per job.

As for dentists, $425,000 in student loans is rather normal for them. We have a nephew just finishing dental school in SC right now. His income will be high, but his loan payments so large that they will basically live on his wife's teacher's salary for many years. Costs of operating a practice are very high.

[Clarita]

10 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

That said, why do people live in high COL? I've lived on the west coast, twice. Big perks but a costly way to raise a family.

I mean if you already own the home or are at least locked into the price of your home years ago via a mortgage, the amount of money the properties in your area have gone up doesn't negatively affect you (at least not directly). 

That's why we are still here, even though the houses in my neighborhood have gone up more than 2x and our household income has definitely not gone up by the same amount. We can still afford to live here. My husband's young coworkers who make way more than median income can't afford their own homes. 

Echoing @Sneezyone response too. My husband can ask his company to work remote or see if he can just work out of one of their other offices in a different location. Some people can relocate and spend some months looking for a new job at the new location. There are less fortunate people who can't. People here are living in multigenerational or even multi family homes, so moving away from family isn't as easy because that's 4, 5, 6... working adults that need to move if one of them wants to move. 

Plus, it's not easy to move from an area you know to an area you don't know. Some people can't afford to even do road trips so they may have never experienced any locations outside of what they know. To just up and move to a place you've never been is hard (BTDT).

[Corraleno]

3 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

That said, why do people live in high COL? I've lived on the west coast, twice. Big perks but a costly way to raise a family.

HCOL areas are expensive because that's generally where the high paying jobs are, and they provide a lot of the things people want, so the competition for housing is intense. My area has a lot of big employers (like Nike) and tech companies (like Intel), high minimum wage (minimum is $15, but most places including fast food pay $17-20), plus top quality healthcare (the top 3 hospitals in the state, including the main teaching hospital, are within 20 minutes of me), good schools, a state university + an extensive, reasonably priced community college system, lots of parks and a great low-cost rec program, a fabulous library system, significant support for small businesses, tons of restaurants and pretty much every store you can think of within a 20-minute radius, and an international airport. And it's in a state that responded much better than most to the pandemic, it has good social supports including expanded medicaid, it has laws that protect LGBT and women's rights, and it's got a mild (although rainy) climate with beaches, mountains, and hiking in easy reach.

My kids would love to stay in this area, but unless they marry into wealth that's not very likely — and in fact I could not afford to live here if I were trying to buy a house now. I'm very lucky that house prices were half of what they are now when I bought 10 years ago.

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

It’s posted online and based on graduate survey respondents. You can search for ‘pay “university”, average degree, ncbi’ and get data or  check out the scorecard:https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/search/?page=0&sort=threshold_earnings:desc&search=Ohio State University-Main Campus https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/search/?page=0&sort=threshold_earnings:desc&search=Ohio State University-Main Campus

This is highly inaccurate data.  It is based upon self-reported data by the respondents who choosse to respond, which is a highly-biased sample. 

Oops--I looked at the link and this is not based on graudate survey respondents.  It is based upon IRS data and is based only upon those who received federal aid and who were working.  It provides no information as to what the degree was.  And, it includes individuals who did not receive a degree.  So, I might be looking at the pay of someone who got a biology degree and then went to med school or I might be looking at someone who went to school for a year, never went to class, failed out of school, and has had a work record that looks like their school record.  

Edited September 8, 2023 by Bootsie

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

There is evidence that immigrants who arrive with familial/social and financial capital build wealth/establish themselves more quickly. This isn’t news.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831393/ Lots of people have been looking at this. I trust your google works like mine.

I don't know, maybe my google doesn't work like yours.  If I google whether college students who live in countries that subsidize college educations accumulate wealth more quickly than college graduates in the US, I do not get articles about the spedd at which immigrants to the US build wealth depening upon the social and financial capital they bring with them.  

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

This is amazing and so wonderful for the young adults living there. Do you think it’s because the area is somewhat undesirable or more so because there is actually enough housing stock relative to the population?

I think it is a combination of reasons.  It doesn't have mountains and it isn't near beautiful beaches. It's hot, humid, and there are mosquitoes.  But, there are decent jobs for both college and non-college educated. There is a university.  Schools are decent.  You are 100 miles from one of the larges cities in the US.  But, it isn't "fancy".  (I no longer live in the town but would not be opposed to moving back there.)  Ironcially, a major employer brought some new jobs into the area recently and the area has been experiencing a "housing shortage" relative to what it has been like historically; historically rental housing has been difficult to come by in the area.  

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

So much of this I agree with and yet I think some of it is locality. I have two daughters, both married, both have bought a home, both have husbands that have some college but have decided to not pursue a degree at this time. One daughter is staying home and homeschooling and doesn't work, the other works *very* part time (8-12 hours/week, flex.) But we also live in an area of manufacturing so these are families who work OT and have medical benefits, paired with a moderate COL.  

That said, why do people live in high COL? I've lived on the west coast, twice. Big perks but a costly way to raise a family.

DH has multiple degrees. Would we encourage a kid to go our route? It can't be about the numbers. People are internally wired for different areas. I needed an electrician. It took eight phone calls to talk to a human. Eight. And I refuse to think of the hourly charge - this company does odds and ends residential work, but it's pay by the job, not hour. Still... one can't help but calculate $2500/8 = $312 and change per hour. 😕  I was with my dentist for a consult yesterday. 3 hours and $1200 later, and that was spendy too.  Dunno what the answer is, but if I had a kid with daydreams about electrical work or filling cavities, I'd likely not dissuade either.

We don’t live in a particularly hcol place. But, like others have pointed out, folks from the west coast have been pouring into my state and it’s not helping those who’ve lived here for generations find housing. 
my dh has a coworker who moved from the west coast. He sold his CA house, paid off his mortgage and paid cash with the equity on a nicer home in middle TN. 
but that means that out of state people can outbid locals on housing. 
my dd and her dh have lived in this area since they were born. They both have college degrees. It’s frustrating!

[Corraleno]

I randomly picked a town 100 miles east of Portland to see how much cheaper housing prices would be in the middle of nowhere. Hermiston + the adjacent town of Umatilla have a combined population of about 25K, and these are the only houses for sale for less than $250K: 816 sq' for $239K, 672 sq' for $225K, and 1 BR shack that is literally falling down for $138K, lol. And this is in a small town with no amenities, 100 miles from Portland and 90 miles from the nearest university (Eastern Oregon U), where the shopping options are Walmart, BiMart, Big Lots, Dollar General, and Goodwill.

I'm sure there must be a few areas in the US where there are good jobs, good amenities, and affordable housing, but in much of the country housing prices are just insane no matter how lousy the location is.

[Corraleno]

I looked at Bend, OR, which is a nice small city around 3 hours from Portland (pop. ~100K, 200K in the larger metro area), with a small state uni and good amenities. This is the cheapest single family home for sale in Bend right now:

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I looked at Bend, OR, which is a nice small city around 3 hours from Portland (pop. ~100K, 200K in the larger metro area), with a small state uni and good amenities. This is the cheapest single family home for sale in Bend right now:

Bend has exploded! It has become so incredibly popular, especially with retirees. The influx from CA doesn't help. It's a lovely place I would dearly love to live in - but not under these circumstances.

Edited September 8, 2023 by regentrude

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

I don't know, maybe my google doesn't work like yours.  If I google whether college students who live in countries that subsidize college educations accumulate wealth more quickly than college graduates in the US, I do not get articles about the spedd at which immigrants to the US build wealth depening upon the social and financial capital they bring with them.  

Maybe because you’re looking for info I didn’t reference? I was comparing immigrant students to native born ones in the US.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Sneezyone

[smfmommy]

7 hours ago, Bootsie said:

The house that I lived in during elementary school happens to be on the market now--my parents would have bought in in the mid 1960s.  It is 3 bedroom and one bath.  Since we lived there the carport has been turned into a garage, but other than that, it looks as if nothing much has changed of the basic house.  It is freshly painted and is in good condition.  It is on the market for $135,000.   

In my area the only way to buy a house like that, at that price, is to buy a mobile home and also pay a $500-$600 lot rent.  Or buy a dump that will need to be stripped to the studs.

I have three graduated adults now.  We do not push college unless their career goals need it.  I am not opposed to higher learning, I just don't think the return on cost for traditional college is worth it.  

My oldest decided to be an elementary teacher at 24.  She got her teaching degree online (in 2 years instead of 4).  FAFSA paid for the whole thing.  The local school district called her within 24 hours of her applying and she had a job offer within 24 hours of her interview.  So they certainly didn't care that her degree didn't come from a "real" school. 

My second child works in elder care.  She has her Qmap and a few certificates in diet/nutrition.  She is currently a driver for an elder facility making more money than when she did direct care at a private facility.  For her, having a degree would not have improved her career path.

Third child is currently getting her EMT certificate for free (state program initiative to increase certain tech degrees). 

My son-in-law got his associates in welding while in high school (no debt).  It almost cost him his current, good, job.  His boss doesn't like kids with degrees because they come with so so knowledge and bad attitudes.  Thankfully a friend vouched for him and he got hired.

So lots of higher learning happening just not lots of debt or traditional brick and mortar classrooms.  There are many in our area doing the same or going to the local state U with grants/scholarships to finish degrees they started while in high school.   I think a lot of people are considering cheaper options at state/online schools as good enough since a college degree doesn't seem to be worth the debt at "better" schools.

[Bootsie]

As far as comparing the tax rates/spending of governments, US govt spending is 38.5% of GDP, The government revenue is approximately 33% of GDP (taxes now) and the rest is funded through borrowing (taxing future citizens).  So, about 1/3 of work effort/production is taxed in the US.  France, Italy, Greece, Austria, and Finland all have government spending exceeding 50% of GDP.  Germany, Hungary, and Denmark are right at government spening equalling 50% of GDP.  

That of course, does not say anything about what the citizens of those countries get in return for their tax dollars and whether the tax rates/benefits are a good tradeoff.  But, it does point to the people in those countries being taxed at a higher rate than in the US--one way or another; even if it does not show up as an income tax for an individual family.  

[Heartstrings]

48 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

As far as comparing the tax rates/spending of governments, US govt spending is 38.5% of GDP, The government revenue is approximately 33% of GDP (taxes now) and the rest is funded through borrowing (taxing future citizens).  So, about 1/3 of work effort/production is taxed in the US.  France, Italy, Greece, Austria, and Finland all have government spending exceeding 50% of GDP.  Germany, Hungary, and Denmark are right at government spening equalling 50% of GDP.  

That of course, does not say anything about what the citizens of those countries get in return for their tax dollars and whether the tax rates/benefits are a good tradeoff.  But, it does point to the people in those countries being taxed at a higher rate than in the US--one way or another; even if it does not show up as an income tax for an individual family.  

Is that because the European countries tax corporations more?  

[Shoeless]

High Point U's steak house sounds like finishing school. And the steakhouse is included in the meal plan. 

On their website, they market themselves as "The Premier Lifeskills University".  

I don't even know what to make of that.  $47K a year tuition and $19K a year in room and board for a triple so your kid can learn etiquette and how to make reservations at fancy restaurants and appreciate global cuisine? Come on...this is nonsense. 

The school with the lazy river: the student activities fee might pay for the upkeep on this thing, but where did the money come from for it to be built? Tuition? Room and board? Is this a state school that sent tax money to fund it? The activities fee is a drop in the bucket but there are a lot of drops filling that bucket to the brim. (Room, board, tuition, chromebooks, e-textbook fees, fees to park on campus, health center fees, technology fees, science lab fees, and on and on and on).  Someone paid for the infrastructure to start with. 

I get that everyone wants their kid to have a really nice life and look back fondly on their university years. But there's a cost to all this nonsense.  People are taking out loans for this and it's unsustainable. We see all around us how unsustainable all of this is, and yet no one wants to budge and say, "Maybe we need to adjust expectations". I was dazzled by college catalogues showcasing fun and fancy amenities until my parents said "Look, we're not paying for breakfast to be delivered to your room every morning. It's a small campus; ride your bike to the dining hall before class. We are not paying for drop off laundry service. Here's a roll of quarters; do your own laundry". 

Do we want to pay good quality professors or do we want to finance concierge breakfast and laundry service over 30 years?  College is a short period of time, but the debt hangs on forever.     

 

[Scarlett]

I just looked at houses in the  city where xh and I bought our starter house in 1987. We paid $37,950 for it.  It was adorable.  Clean and neat. 2/1/1 and about 1000 sf.  In a really nice sought after neighborhood which is still that way.  I found a house 3 blocks away from it which is almost identical that recently sold for $169K. 

[Shoeless]

The article is paywalled for me, so my comments are based on what I see and hear around me, and not the article.

When tuition at the local school is $40k a year and starting salary for jobs that my interest my kid is $40k a year, yes, I question what the heck we're doing and whether or not attending college is worth it. When AI is projected to take away a lot of those jobs, yes, I question whether or not the expense of college is worth it. Maybe he's better off at the $16k, 18month trade school. His starting salary will still be $40k but he will graduate with no debt. So, 0 debt and $40K a year vs $160K debt + compounding interest and $40K a year.  It's really hard to get a jump start on life with debt. 

He doesn't have to be a tradesman forever. Start in a trade, live rent-free at home with us, and save your paycheck for later so you can: buy a car, buy a house, pay for the next career path. 

[Bootsie]

40 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Is that because the European countries tax corporations more?  

It does not appear to be the case--it is hard to get an apples-to-apples comparison because of differences in accounting/tax laws, but the percent of tax revenue for US, Germany, and France that comes from taxes on corporate income and gains is about the same (with the US maybe even a bit higher).  And, the US is one of the only countries that charges taxes to its citizens and companies on money earned outside its own borders (In other words, if a US citizen works in France, they have a tax obligation to the US government; if a French citizen works in the US, the French government does not tax them on that income--the same applies for a US corporation that has profits in France)  A big difference appears to be the Europeans rely much more heavily on the Value Added Tax (VAT)

[Heartstrings]

47 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

  A big difference appears to be the Europeans rely much more heavily on the Value Added Tax (VAT)

So that’s similar functionally to our sales tax I think?  But our sales tax goes to our state or local government.  Which makes me wonder if the 33% number you mentioned earlier is federal only, or if it includes taxes we pay to the states and does that account for some part of the difference? My state has income tax, I know the neighboring state with no income tax has higher property tax to make up the difference.  I don’t know if European countries have another layer of taxes similar to our state taxes or not.  

Edited September 8, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Shoeless]

I'm feeling really curmudgeony about this tonight. Come with me on a trip to "back in my day..."

My parents and stepparents all lived at home and attended local colleges. Same for my aunts and uncles. There is only one aunt that had the "full college experience" and went out of state, (on a full ride). Everyone lived at home until they got married or were established long enough in jobs that they could afford to move out. 

My older cousins had the same experience. One briefly lived on campus until lousy grades brought him home. 

My grandparents did not attend college, but all lived at home until they were married.  They were blue collar union carpenters, postal workers, school secretaries. My stepfather's parents attended college, and they were considered to be wealthy people.   

I would have happily attended a local school and lived at home, but "family dynamics" 🙄 demanded I attend school 500 miles away. 

Sometime in my generation, the expectation shifted to "full college experience" at a faraway school: dorms, dining halls, football stadiums, college life, Greek life, rah rah sis boom bah. That stuff was always there for wealthier people, but it became expected of "good" middle class families, too. Then college costs exploded: inflation plus easier access to loans plus all the marketing and rhetoric about college is a must and you don't want your children to be left behind in the new millenium, do you? 

And because the middle class is aspirational, an average college dorm experience is not good enough anymore. Doesn't your child deserve the very best? Don't they deserve gourmet coffee in the student lounge? Award winning landscaping? Olympic pools and racquetball? Hot stone massage, nutrition counseling, reiki energy treatments? (Those are services offered at a state flagship state school!) Is this the full college experience people now require?

This is nuts. No wonder the students at my alma mater think they place is a dump when other students get herbal tea and relaxing massages during finals week. 

We have lost the plot.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Shoeless

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, Shoeless said:

The article is paywalled for me, so my comments are based on what I see and hear around me, and not the article.

When tuition at the local school is $40k a year and starting salary for jobs that my interest my kid is $40k a year, yes, I question what the heck we're doing and whether or not attending college is worth it. When AI is projected to take away a lot of those jobs, yes, I question whether or not the expense of college is worth it. Maybe he's better off at the $16k, 18month trade school. His starting salary will still be $40k but he will graduate with no debt. So, 0 debt and $40K a year vs $160K debt + compounding interest and $40K a year.  It's really hard to get a jump start on life with debt. 

He doesn't have to be a tradesman forever. Start in a trade, live rent-free at home with us, and save your paycheck for later so you can: buy a car, buy a house, pay for the next career path. 

I paid off student loans at age 42, and my debt was about $60k after a scholarship and for undergrad and grad school. I’m very worried about the cost of college. I was lucky my husband didn’t have debt. 

[Shoeless]

Just now, Ting Tang said:

I paid off student loans at age 42, and my debt was about $60k after a scholarship and for undergrad and grad school. I’m very worried about the cost of college. I was lucky my husband didn’t have debt. 

My relative is still paying off student loans at age 45. Someone convinced them that a tier 4 law degree was a good idea, on top of the undergrad and grad school degrees/debt. Plus, all the school debt their spouse has.  They will never, ever get out of from under this. 

I have a friend that is doggedly pursuing a Women's Studies degree and is POSITIVE this will land her a good paying job; student loan debt be damned. 

I have another friend that was an engineering major in school. Three years' worth of school loans, flunked out because the work was over her head, and now manages a McDonalds. Maybe if she went part time she could have gotten through the program, I don't know. Then again, she was an engineering major at a school known for fine arts, so...

These are the "Don't Let This Happen to You" stories I tell my son. Yes, you can have a college education if you want one. But you have to think carefully about the cost of it and the cost of all the other things you want in life. A degree is not a guaranteed paycheck and a certain standard of living. We will have to be creative and resourceful if college is the plan: part time, CLEP exams, living at home, gen eds through the cheaper community college, gap year to work and save, some combination of all of those. Yes, there are good freshman scholarships available for full time enrollment, but the places we've looked into require living on campus and the scholarships are not enough money to completely cover the expense of room and board. 

 

[Ting Tang]

1 minute ago, Shoeless said:

My relative is still paying off student loans at age 45. Someone convinced them that a tier 4 law degree was a good idea, on top of the undergrad and grad school degrees/debt. Plus, all the school debt their spouse has.  They will never, ever get out of from under this. 

I have a friend that is doggedly pursuing a Women's Studies degree and is POSITIVE this will land her a good paying job; student loan debt be damned. 

I have another friend that was an engineering major in school. Three years' worth of school loans, flunked out because the work was over her head, and now manages a McDonalds. Maybe if she went part time she could have gotten through the program, I don't know. Then again, she was an engineering major at a school known for fine arts, so...

These are the "Don't Let This Happen to You" stories I tell my son. Yes, you can have a college education if you want one. But you have to think carefully about the cost of it and the cost of all the other things you want in life. A degree is not a guaranteed paycheck and a certain standard of living. We will have to be creative and resourceful if college is the plan: part time, CLEP exams, living at home, gen eds through the cheaper community college, gap year to work and save, some combination of all of those. Yes, there are good freshman scholarships available for full time enrollment, but the places we've looked into require living on campus and the scholarships are not enough money to completely cover the expense of room and board. 

 

Yikes. Yes, I am concerned the situation could be much worse for my children, even with savings and scholarships. We don’t even live close to a four year school, and financing living expenses sounds crazy to me. Trades can be tricky, too, but debt can certainly make your life difficult for a long time. 😞

[Kassia]

2 hours ago, Shoeless said:

 

The school with the lazy river: the student activities fee might pay for the upkeep on this thing, but where did the money come from for it to be built? Tuition? Room and board? Is this a state school that sent tax money to fund it? The activities fee is a drop in the bucket but there are a lot of drops filling that bucket to the brim. (Room, board, tuition, chromebooks, e-textbook fees, fees to park on campus, health center fees, technology fees, science lab fees, and on and on and on).  Someone paid for the infrastructure to start with. 

 

 

The state university my older kids attended built a fancy new student union while they were there.  It was a forced additional fee every semester.  I hated seeing that fee on the bill.  At the time, I remember adding it up after all three graduated and it was a *lot* of money that we hadn't planned on paying.  

My kids were all STEM students and graduated with no debt and had great jobs after graduation.  They are all doing very well financially.  We are definitely relieved and feel very fortunate.  

 

[Carrie12345]

On 9/6/2023 at 10:41 PM, Sneezyone said:

Can I push back on the bolded a little? I am beginning to conceptualize this in very different ways. I think employers started asking for degrees (coincidentally, accidentally, for no reason?) in the 70s when the employee pool became more diverse (to include women) and a degree necessarily limited the hiring pool in ways that fit hiring preferences. This preceded the higher ed cost issues.

I don’t doubt that was a historical factor, but it’s still completely nonsensical in many jobs. I was a retail assistant manager as a teen in the 90s. In some companies, teens are still assistant managers and managers. In other retail companies, they require a 4 year degree. In anything.  
It does seem more are adding “degree ‘preferred’”, but that’s their compromise out of desperation.

And it still remains that, in those 70’s/80s, non-degree employees could live. My father worked retail my whole childhood. My mom stayed home for a bit with each of 3 babies and worked retail in between. Small suburban house, 2 used cars, and lots of camping vacations. No credit cards.

Dh and I were 1 degree, 1 diploma, 2 jobs, 1 kid, in a crumbling apartment, 2 gifted cars (1 without reverse) in a dangerous neighborhood, and went into debt to eat in 2000-2002.

Today, I have three 20-somethings, one in college, one with a certification seeking higher certification, and another preparing for a certification. All three are worried they won’t be able to have what dh and I did when we were broke, between education costs and cost of living vs. income. And they’re right to be.

[Carrie12345]

12 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

That said, why do people live in high COL? I've lived on the west coast, twice. Big perks but a costly way to raise a family.

The COL in my area is rated very near 1, so entirely average. But average is expensive. The median home price here is $290k, and the cheap listings need $$$ work.  
And we don’t have jobs, transportation, apartments, shopping, or much in the way of recreation other than the woods or seeing NASCAR once a year. (Which is how many of us like it, but it doesn’t do much for people being squeezed.)

[regentrude]

Yes, one needs to do a realistic ROI estimate before going into debt. That should be a no-brainer. But a blanket dismissal of the value of college doesn't make sense.

The average starting salary of the graduates at my public uni is 77k, higher than the salary of a new professor. The cost of their degree is paid off in a very short time.

Eta: yes, like any machines, AI will make some routine tasks obsolete. But it also creates high-paying jobs as AI prompt writer :)

Edited September 8, 2023 by regentrude

[Faith-manor]

11 hours ago, Kassia said:

The state university my older kids attended built a fancy new student union while they were there.  It was a forced additional fee every semester.  I hated seeing that fee on the bill.  At the time, I remember adding it up after all three graduated and it was a *lot* of money that we hadn't planned on paying.  

My kids were all STEM students and graduated with no debt and had great jobs after graduation.  They are all doing very well financially.  We are definitely relieved and feel very fortunate.  

 

WMU just built a palace looking student center for the bookstore and some admin offices. They promised students it was all paid for by donated dollars and they would not raise tuition or fees. As soon as it was done, they raised tuition and fees because "cost overruns". They also have no parking spaces for it that are covered by student parking passes, so students have to pay parking fees if they drive to the building and there are no student parking lots within a reasonable walking distance. Students and parents protested. Administration doesn't care of course.

The overhead and stupidity that has lead to the tuition and fees mess is not the buildings, maintenance, utilities, and faculty and staff that the students actually need to get the education. It is all the ego crap that college presidents and coaches and wealthy alumni and trustees want. Faculty are criminally under paid in many colleges. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Faith-manor

[smfmommy]

Interesting graphic that shows students have shifted towards more "practical" degrees.  It will be interesting to see if this impacts society in 10 years or if we really didn't need as many English Lit majors as we have had.

Original article is HERE

 

[Carrie12345]

3 minutes ago, smfmommy said:

Interesting graphic that shows students have shifted towards more "practical" degrees.  It will be interesting to see if this impacts society in 10 years or if we really didn't need as many English Lit majors as we have had.

I’ll never poop in practical professions because they ARE important. But existence is more than practical (or dare I say impractical, lol) and we risk erasing the thinking that built this world we have.

Communicating ideas, understanding past events, serving communities, and seeking truths and resolutions are only a few examples of societal needs.

 I’m annoyed that I have to take some of the gen eds on my degree list, but I have to admit that my professors in my stupid classes have shed genuine light on my relatively smart brain. Could they have without English and anthro/soc degrees? Doubtfull.

How are THEY affording it? Beats me.

[smfmommy]

21 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Communicating ideas, understanding past events, serving communities, and seeking truths and resolutions are only a few examples of societal needs.

I agree which is why I put practical in quotes.  In my circles it is assumed that those drowning in debt are ones who have chosen degrees without clear career trajectories.  But this shows that more and more kids are choosing differently and yet still are impeded by enormous debt.

[SKL]

3 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

And it still remains that, in those 70’s/80s, non-degree employees could live. My father worked retail my whole childhood. My mom stayed home for a bit with each of 3 babies and worked retail in between. Small suburban house, 2 used cars, and lots of camping vacations. No credit cards.

Dh and I were 1 degree, 1 diploma, 2 jobs, 1 kid, in a crumbling apartment, 2 gifted cars (1 without reverse) in a dangerous neighborhood, and went into debt to eat in 2000-2002.

Today, I have three 20-somethings, one in college, one with a certification seeking higher certification, and another preparing for a certification. All three are worried they won’t be able to have what dh and I did when we were broke, between education costs and cost of living vs. income. And they’re right to be.

It seems to me we're comparing 2-income households to 1-income households?

Also, "camping vacations" the way our folks used to do them are essentially free (one-time investment in a used or home-made tent) - all one needed was a job that allowed a few consecutive days off once or twice a summer.  People with any job can still afford that, at least where I live.

I don't expect young people to have wealth before they've held a steady, full-time job for a while.  I don't think it's wise to allow our kids to expect that.  Even with two graduate degrees and two professional  licenses, I was 28 before I could almost afford to buy 1/3 of a house.  But that was just a season in my life.  By living on a tight budget then, I was able to pay off all of my debts (including mortgage) relatively soon.  I had career-enhancing offers that would have required me to move, but I was not willing to accept the COL increase, and I don't regret that.

For my kids, I hope they can continue to live in my house until they are earning a decent living.  I realize that sometimes life makes that impossible, but our location is pretty good as far as job opportunities and amenities, and their current career goals shouldn't force them to move.  We have done home improvements that can provide living space for young adults or small young families.  I hope this relieves some of the stress inherent in the young adult / new career years.  If they decide not to live here, hopefully they are able to share with someone else during those early years at least.

Just because some of our parents were able to buy a small house decades ago without a college diploma or established career, that doesn't mean all of our kids must be able to.  There is just no logic there.  There is no comparability.  And let's not forget that homeownership rates have risen since then, even though the absolute cost of houses has increased (due to sq ft and other factors).  There were plenty of people in all generations who could not buy a house.

Edited September 8, 2023 by SKL

[kbutton]

9 hours ago, Shoeless said:

He doesn't have to be a tradesman forever. Start in a trade, live rent-free at home with us, and save your paycheck for later so you can: buy a car, buy a house, pay for the next career path. 

And the next career path is likely to come with more financial assistance if he is past traditional college age. Our older one is going down this path. He is not made for a job where he has to spend all day on the phone or on a computer. If he ends up in school later, so be it, but until interest rates went up recently, his field was super high demand locally. He would also be able to retrain in a different blue collar field that is in demand—not all of them are super hard on the body. 

Our second will need at least a masters and maybe a doctorate, and lots of prior in that field are self-employed. He requires robust health benefits, sigh (3 rare diseases). If ulcers were actually caused by stress, I would be one big ulcer thinking about it. A blue collar job would not be a good fit for him, and even many white collar jobs will require physical accommodations at work. Many people with this degree end up not working in the field at all. There is no clear other path of “he’d be great at this if he would just consider it.” 

Both kids are 2e, and that makes even paid for without loans college a big giant gamble for OUR finances, and I don’t know if that’s in the cards. And second DS’s school (small, private, costs us about what homeschooling high school would due to a state scholarship) would like us to hire a college consultant for three years…

The reasons to be uneasy about college are diverse!

[prairiewindmomma]

"I mean, I know I had affordable college with state tuition I could pay for myself by just working summers, and could buy a house in my late 20s as a young working adult, but why should my kids be able to do that? Those entitled whipper snappers!!!"

SKL....to gently pick on you a bit....Assuming you graduated at 22 with a BA, got a masters by 24 (grad degree one) and went to law school (grad degree 2), you graduated at 27....and bought a house the next year.

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by prairiewindmomma

[Carrie12345]

27 minutes ago, SKL said:

It seems to me we're comparing 2-income households to 1-income households?

Also, "camping vacations" the way our folks used to do them are essentially free (one-time investment in a used or home-made tent) - all one needed was a job that allowed a few consecutive days off once or twice a summer.  People with any job can still afford that, at least where I live.

I don't expect young people to have wealth before they've held a steady, full-time job for a while.  I don't think it's wise to allow our kids to expect that.  Even with two graduate degrees and two professional  licenses, I was 28 before I could almost afford to buy 1/3 of a house.  But that was just a season in my life.  By living on a tight budget then, I was able to pay off all of my debts (including mortgage) relatively soon.  I had career-enhancing offers that would have required me to move, but I was not willing to accept the COL increase, and I don't regret that.

For my kids, I hope they can continue to live in my house until they are earning a decent living.  I realize that sometimes life makes that impossible, but our location is pretty good as far as job opportunities and amenities, and their current career goals shouldn't force them to move.  We have done home improvements that can provide living space for young adults or small young families.  I hope this relieves some of the stress inherent in the young adult / new career years.  If they decide not to live here, hopefully they are able to share with someone else during those early years at least.

Just because some of our parents were able to buy a small house decades ago without a college diploma or established career, that doesn't mean all of our kids must be able to.  There is just no logic there.  There is no comparability.  And let's not forget that homeownership rates have risen since then, even though the absolute cost of houses has increased (due to sq ft and other factors).  There were plenty of people in all generations who could not buy a house.

I’m generalizing, not comparing 1:1. My parents were 1 income more often than 2. My daughter technically has a 2 income household. Still incomparable lifestyle ability. DD’s rent on a crap apartment in a sketchy town is higher than my mortgage + escrow on my starter home and higher than the mortgage on my big dream home. It isn’t the “more affordable option”, it’s part of what impedes down payment savings.

Not all people want to own a house, obviously. All working people, imo, should be able to afford a HOME, whatever that building is. (Well, i believe all people, period, should have a home. But I digress from the main point.)

I don’t think anyone is talking about “wealth” as in free from counting every penny. I’m talking having enough pennies to pay for a modest life and the potential to leave the work force and continuing a modest life before dropping dead of old age.

Home ownership is only 1 factor in the equation.

 

 

[Carrie12345]

It really is math. If people were genuinely interested in understanding, they would sit down and try budgeting with published statistics and using their sociological imagination (thanks, community college!) to think through different scenarios.

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

Yes, one needs to do a realistic ROI estimate before going into debt. That should be a no-brainer. But a blanket dismissal of the value of college doesn't make sense.

The average starting salary of the graduates at my public uni is 77k, higher than the salary of a new professor. The cost of their degree is paid off in a very short time.

Eta: yes, like any machines, AI will make some routine tasks obsolete. But it also creates high-paying jobs as AI prompt writer 🙂

Unfortunately, that suggest that the return to graduate school education for the professors was negative 😞 

It does drive me a bit crazy when I hear people complain about the cost of college education and the return they expect from the investment includes having a job with a starting salary higher than the wages being paid their professors.  

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

Unfortunately, that suggest that the return to graduate school education for the professors was negative 😞 

No, the issue is not the graduate degree - it is the decision to work in academia as opposed to choosing a much higher paying job in industry with the same qualifications. 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

No, the issue is not the graduate degree - it is the decision to work in academia as opposed to choosing a much higher paying job in industry with the same qualifications. 

 

Most of my professor friends teach because they love it or need the life balance, not because they are well compensated.  I would say probably half of my professor friends have side gigs in industry to pay the bills at this point. 

[Carrie12345]

5 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Unfortunately, that suggest that the return to graduate school education for the professors was negative 😞 

It does drive me a bit crazy when I hear people complain about the cost of college education and the return they expect from the investment includes having a job with a starting salary higher than the wages being paid their professors.  

Is that chicken or egg though? I don’t hear many average people saying professors shouldn’t ALSO be paid adequately. Most are not.

[prairiewindmomma]

I will also add that the assault on higher education by politicians is particularly appalling.  Stripping tenure and reducing benefits and packages are horrible actions.

[SHP]

15 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

So much of this I agree with and yet I think some of it is locality. I have two daughters, both married, both have bought a home, both have husbands that have some college but have decided to not pursue a degree at this time. One daughter is staying home and homeschooling and doesn't work, the other works *very* part time (8-12 hours/week, flex.) But we also live in an area of manufacturing so these are families who work OT and have medical benefits, paired with a moderate COL.  

That said, why do people live in high COL? I've lived on the west coast, twice. Big perks but a costly way to raise a family.

DH has multiple degrees. Would we encourage a kid to go our route? It can't be about the numbers. People are internally wired for different areas. I needed an electrician. It took eight phone calls to talk to a human. Eight. And I refuse to think of the hourly charge - this company does odds and ends residential work, but it's pay by the job, not hour. Still... one can't help but calculate $2500/8 = $312 and change per hour. 😕  I was with my dentist for a consult yesterday. 3 hours and $1200 later, and that was spendy too.  Dunno what the answer is, but if I had a kid with daydreams about electrical work or filling cavities, I'd likely not dissuade either.

$312 isn't what the electrician is being paid though. Not even close.

The *company* exists to make a profit. The company will have overhead expenses that have to be covered. They are not going to only charge what they pay ththeir ployees, they are going to want to cover expenses such as payroll taxes, business licenses, business insurance, vehicles, tools, employees who manage the above and are not performing electrical work and likely lawyers who will take care of the legal aspect to ensure all is in compliance and to have a registered agent for privacy.

[Bootsie]

11 minutes ago, regentrude said:

No, the issue is not the graduate degree - it is the decision to work in academia as opposed to choosing a much higher paying job in industry with the same qualifications. 

 

That is certainly true in some fields, but I am not sure that it applies in all fields.  But, it points out why having a university provide salary data for degrees can be highly misleading.  A college degree, even within a field, is not a standardzied investment.  The choices that one makes of how to use that degree have a large impact on the return on the investment.  Even if you had good data on the average salary of grads from a particular degree program at a particular school, you would be picking up the impact of individual choices as well as the "value of the degree".  

[Bootsie]

13 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Is that chicken or egg though? I don’t hear many average people saying professors shouldn’t ALSO be paid adequately. Most are not.

I don't think it is simply and chicken and egg problem.  I often hear people talk about what they think is "too expensive" for a college degree and if you did the math of what they think is a reasonable price for the degree, there is no way the professors could be paid more than minimum wage.  

[kbutton]

8 hours ago, Shoeless said:

We have lost the plot.

Adding to your excellent thoughts in that longer post, the majority of jobs that are now done by people with degrees were done for decades by people who took a few business classes in high school and learned their way up the ladder. It was normal. A few people at the top needed degrees. Many of these people knew their jobs inside and out in a way that someone walking in from outside with a degree didn’t, and those people subsequently come in and screw stuff up, lol! They make shortsighted tech decisions like choosing billing software that doesn’t work nearly as well as what they have, etc. (and not switching those to save money!).

My dad had a great tech industry job, but locals ran the company out of town (literally one or two people in key local positions). He had no degree, but he had a knack that was recognized and rewarded for learning these things. Tons of other people in a similar boat lost jobs or had to move—some ended up doing very well in tech fields that now require a degree also. When the company left, my dad was recruited for a job that at the time paid well but had serious uncertainties with where our family was in life at the time. He turned it down, but he knew who got the job; we later found out that the astronomical salary did keep increasing (and all the downsides—for our situation—would’ve still been problematic). All that to say, what has changed that we refuse to look at or reward talent that doesn’t come with a degree when for decades that talent did a great job (frequently better than the college people)?

8 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I paid off student loans at age 42, and my debt was about $60k after a scholarship and for undergrad and grad school. I’m very worried about the cost of college. I was lucky my husband didn’t have debt. 

Timing makes a difference in several ways. We are bit less secure than most Gen X’s (near the tail end), but so many small things still occurred for us just before the big bubbles burst or other factors shifted dramatically, etc.

We both had debt but not at the same time. DH was going to require more schooling, and my loans had quite a high interest rate for being student loans. We had already committed to living on just my income since we knew he was going to do more school again, and rents were still reasonable (and we luckily found a unicorn apartment complex that was more modest but well-maintained). We were advised to pay down my loans vs. trying to avoid loans for DH by saving (though we definitely had emergency funds). We shoved more at my student loans than at our rent (we paid 4x the monthly payment), and it helped tremendously with interest savings. They weren’t paid off when DH finished school, but the interest savings moved that date so much closer. DH’s were less than half the interest and got paid off so much faster. We kept tabs on housing costs, and they were comparable to renting if you chose a modest to moderate house (and would require upkeep costs that can be difficult to factor in).

We could not have done that even five years later. Rent skyrocketed. All the bubbles burst. It’s completely different now. DH makes great money, but we wouldn’t be able to afford rent a home like the ones in our neighborhood (also unicorns here—most houses are smaller or MUCH larger but more cheaply built).

Here AirBNB sorts of companies are less of a factor, but where I grew up, towns had to limit or ban vacation rentals so that locals wouldn’t have all the available rental stick sold out from under them and be homeless (nearly all rental apartments there are houses that are subdivided). They learned during the shake gas boom that landlords would evict locals of low income and re-rent to people coming in to work short term. It caused a big crisis. We do still have a housing shortfall where we live, but it’s more manageable than many places.

Also timing: in the fifteen years between buying our first house and selling it, we went from buying a home with whatever paint and paper was on the walls and paying our closing costs as being a normal thing to having to paint for buyers and paying for their closing costs. We got squeezed on both ends.

[Corraleno]

Gifted link for those who want to read the article

Around here the college paths with the best ROI seem to be engineering/CS degrees from a state school or an AAS/certificate in a medical-related field.

DS did not do either of those, but his college costs have been fully covered by athletic and academic scholarships plus a little help from grandma (my exMIL). Even if he eventually ends up in a career where his academic background isn't that relevant, I'm still glad he got to have the "full college experience" because I think it's been really good for him, intellectually and emotionally, and it hasn't involved any debt.

DD is taking a more practical route — a Medical Assistant program at the CC that costs ~$7000, plus another $3000 or so for the prerequisite classes she needed to get into the program. We're paying out of pocket, but that's an amount someone could borrow and easily repay just by living at home for the first year of working. There is a huge shortage of CMAs here, and most places are paying $45-50K to start, with full medical/dental/vision, 401K matching, guaranteed raises the first year, generous PTO, and in some cases even hiring bonuses. She plans to live at home and bank most of her paycheck for at least the first year of working.

 

[Bootsie]

10 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

So that’s similar functionally to our sales tax I think?  But our sales tax goes to our state or local government.  Which makes me wonder if the 33% number you mentioned earlier is federal only, or if it includes taxes we pay to the states and does that account for some part of the difference? My state has income tax, I know the neighboring state with no income tax has higher property tax to make up the difference.  I don’t know if European countries have another layer of taxes similar to our state taxes or not.  

The federal portion of the government expenditures for the US is only about 24%, so the 33% in the US is including state and local govenrments in addition to the federal government.