What is going on with schools and neurodivergents???

[Carrie12345]

While obsessing over what area of social work I want to go into, school social worker has crossed my mind. But I wonder if the kinds of districts that really need school social workers bother to hire them.

I met a woman yesterday while getting my oil changed. She was mid-50s, presenting older (in my opinion - as in not up with current ideas and out of energy) raising her grandchildren. She has a young boy with definite ADHD, but hasn’t been able to get the school to evaluate him for 3 years, even with the pediatrician calling and fighting for them.  So no one does anything.
Instead this elementary student has been suspended (out-of-school and in-school) multiple times, gets written up regularly, and loses “privileges” all the time. And has straight As. 

My friend’s son, similar age, may also have some adhd tendencies. He’s routinely “punished” in school as well, for things like not having a pencil at his desk (when he has 10 in his backpack.)

Of course one story is from a stranger and the other is from my close friend who happens to be a psychologist (though different specialty.) But I haven’t been able to stop thinking about a system that is punishing kids who just need some understanding and help with (relative to other problems in the world) simple, well-researched resources!

How widespread is this? Why are teachers and admin ignoring the regulations they’re supposed to be following? How are they comfortable with giving out repeated punishments for minor issues currently out of young kids’ capabilities? What is a parent-figure supposed to do???

It’s hitting me kind of hard as a female who flew under the radar in a less informed era. I have emotional bruises from the feedback adults gave me my whole life (talks to much, doesn’t meet potential, careless, lazy, etc.) but that seems like nothing compared to how these boys are being treated. Thinking about the effect this will likely have on them makes me want to cry! (Especially given unexpected insomnia, lol.)

What is going on, and where is this going to lead???

[Melissa Louise]

Teacher to me, mother of an autistic daughter:

Look, it's not your fault, you don't know what you know. But here's the thing - you have to treat them like puppies. Train them and use rewards.

Me, the support person for an autistic student:

Gobsmacked silence

~

I don't know what's going on over there.

Here, I see three things.

One is a lack of special education knowledge.

Two is a lack of empathy with students, made worse by low teacher morale. 

And three is the mismatch between student needs and the resources needed to meet student needs (including time for teachers to research, adapt, and learn, and provision of in-classroom support).

Classroom teaching is a really difficult job. I wouldn't do it for a million dollars. I try not to judge the less salubrious things I see because I think teachers are asked to do the impossible.

But sometimes, I am just astounded at how children with extra needs are discussed and dealt with. 

~

Suspension is a last resort method in my state.

Nobody is formally punished for things like not bringing a pencil - although there is OFTEN verbal shaming. 

Idk.

Schools are not really very developmentally appropriate places - I think that's just magnified when a child has neurodivergent needs. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Also, I have cried a lot over my students.

It's often really sad watching the way they struggle in an environment that is not doing a good job of meeting their needs. 

So yeah, I get the wanting to cry. 

Sometimes my students cry too.

On Friday my kiddo cried when it was time for me to go home - I gave him a giant hug and then snuggled him down under his weighted blanket and settled him with his music. Plenty of us are in there trying to make up for some of the harder aspects of school life for these kids, and be a caring presence, and that includes teachers. 

[Shoeless]

I think a lot of different things are causing this:

• lack of funding
• lack of patience
• lack of training
• lack of staff
• pressure from admins and politicians to improve test scores/behavior/graduation rates/etc, often at the expense of what is good for the students

Special needs and gifted kids utilize a lot of resources. Some schools just do not have any resources to spare, and some schools just don't want to deal with SN/2e kids. They'd rather encourage the challenging kids and families out the door than engage. 

I'm not a teacher or an admin. My kid lasted 1 week in school, and we bumped up against a rigid "My way or the highway" attitude from the school, so we left.  My kid forgot to get his lunchbox on day 1 going to the cafeteria, so he didn't eat that day, and then I got calls complaining that he was hangry. I asked the teacher to remind him to grab his lunchbox, (because he was 6 and this was a new habit that he would need to build). Nope. "I don't have time to check each student. He needs to be responsible for his own belongings".  

What you describe is common based on what I've heard from relatives that teach and have kids in school.  And not just for special needs students, either. I've got a 9-year-old relative that forgets to hand in his homework folder and gets written up/zeros for it. 

I feel bad for teachers. I'm sure they are exhausted and stressed, and yet...this system is crap and is chewing up kids. It leads to depressed kids that check out of learning, pick fights, have low self-esteem, and shoot up schools. Most school shootings are done by young men in their late teens.

 

[DawnM]

I would want more information on the stranger's story.   That isn't even legal.   Once a school knows of a disability they have 60 days to hold an IEP meeting.   She could sue them easily if what she is saying is true.   I think there is a lot more to that story than she is telling you.

Schools cater to the masses.   The demand on teachers right now is insane.   Public school is not for everyone and without further funding, teacher shortages (and hiring just about anyone off the streets to fill in), and, and, and......the schools continue to not be able to keep up with the needs.   That is not an excuse, but unfortunately it is reality.

We are already having some issues with A in kindergarten and he has only been there one day!   

I am watching the election closely this year.   Somehow everyone on both sides has dropped the ball on Public Education.   It is like it isn't even on anyone's radar anymore.   It seems they want it to fail.   

[Soror]

Here they push kids to the alt school starting in 4th grade. There is a waiting list for it now. 

I had a meeting at the alt school for a client and they told me they don't do IEPs for ADHD in our state, nor do they do them for ODD. They are trying to do as few as possible. They take as long as possible. It is all horse crap. 

Locally I see school social workers working with families that are having trouble or kids that have went through something traumatic, things like that. The school sw helped me get the funds to buy a family some shoes for their son and pay their electric bill. 

[Boymama5]

I really think this will be area dependent and even specific to the districts. We are blessed in our schools to have extremely proactive and supportive staff. We were able to get children evaluated and IEPs within 2-3 weeks. Though I was in education I know that’s not the norm and was surprised at the ease and speed with the followed through support.

[PeterPan]

We've never had a social worker appear at any of our IEP meetings, nor is a social worker on the required team member list. I wouldn't be surprised if our district has one, but I don't see where they interact with your stories at all. The most powerful person in the room (not legally but in the dynamic, at least in my experience) for an IEP meeting is the school psych. After that, the SN coordinator (district level) if they're there. If there's a lawyer present, lawyer trumps everyone, lol. I agree your stories are reflecting on the parents at that there's more going on. People expect the school district to tell them what to do but it's really fox and hen house. If you want something to happen, you have to find out the law, get it in writing, contact an advocate, file complaints, go through the process. It's a LEGAL process with LEGAL rights but it has a learning curve and takes fight.

I was just looking at this book online, which has an intriguing chapter list. https://www.amazon.com/Hacking-School-Discipline-Responsibility-Restorative/dp/1948212137/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=hacking+discipline&qid=1693662006&s=books&sprefix=hacking+dis%2Cstripbooks%2C121&sr=1-1  Again, I'm not sure if a social worker brings change to anything, as it's the principal of the school that leads on these issues. (yes?) 

I don't know, the things that make me sick are pretty systemic, the things that are hard to fix. (graduating kids who can't read, kids not getting language work, kids without life skills when they graduate, etc.) Punishment over pencils seems pretty minor, lol. Any time someone disciplines like that with negative consequences, the assumption is the person on the receiving end has the ability to make INFERENCES and connect cause/effect. The person is supposed to say I don't like xyz negative, I know what I need to do, I will make a plan and do better next time. So if someone is not making inferences, not able to learn from cause/effect, and not able to make a plan, their EF deficits are so severe that I'd be wondering if their diagnoses are correct. 😉

Like you I'm looking at the wind down for my homeschooling and thinking about what I want to do. After so many years of homeschooling, I don't view myself as someone who wants to go into a high setting and bring major change, just me. I'm more like 1:1, what could I really do. There are people working their hearts out for systemic change, like the dyslexia commissions in our state who got through important changes that, with time will ACTUALLY CHANGE reading instruction and how reading intervention is done. I might feel it's important but I don't bring that energy level or experience at this stage, haha. I see a lot of burnout in the school system and frustration when they realize they can't do what they think needs to be done. So I think maybe at this stage of life it's beyond idealism and into where will I actually make a difference. 

[SanDiegoMom]

When I was in fourth grade, I already knew I struggled with executive functioning (though I didn’t call it that).  When we were handed out our graded tests and told to have our parents sign it, I knew I would forget and get in trouble the next day. So creative me decided to just sign my dad’s name and TURN IT IN RIGHT THEN so I wouldn’t forget, lol.   
 

The teacher hauled me up to the Vice principal’s office and got my mom in as well (who volunteered there every day) and lectured me- told my mom very clearly I was going to end up in prison. No one asked WHY l did it.  
 

I didn’t end up in prison but I did end up a homeschooler. 
 

My oldest are in high school and my son has very good accommodations but the school is in a very good school district. It’s so varied across the nation. I think the worst aspect of school is how dehumanizing it can be in the younger grades. Add in impulsivity and executive functioning issues and you have such a miserable atmosphere. 

[gardenmom5]

IME, (and the experience of a friend who was a kindergarten teacher) school districts do NOT want to test kids, as then they have to provide services.  Services cost money.  Any child with issues should be privately tested - then the school district is required to do something.  Though even then, it's a fight.

[Katy]

A little more than a year ago we moved from an area with very little accommodation for students with visual impairments to a different state and a more expensive area with a very good school district.

I’ve been surprised by how good our district has been with my kids. But we’re in a very privileged position. And we’re in an area where parents are likely to file suit if the kids are mistreated. And the vast majority of teachers in our district have graduate degrees. 
 

ETA: it seems like about a quarter of the kids in my youngest two’s classes are in some sort of special ed. I think our state gives a lot more funding for kids with IEP’s so the district is motivated to give kids IEP’s. I wonder how much of this is also due to the advanced education of most of the teachers.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Katy
Teachers not tissues, that has got to be my worst autocorrect ever.

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Katy said:

A little more than a year ago we moved from an area with very little accommodation for students with visual impairments to a different state and a more expensive area with a very good school district.

I’ve been surprised by how good our district has been with my kids. But we’re in a very privileged position. And we’re in an area where parents are likely to file suit if the kids are mistreated. And the vast majority of teachers in our district have graduate degrees. 

Ironically, in our area the poorer school district is much more willing to do evals and give IEPs/504 as warranted. In the "rich" district next door, there's pressure NOT to diagnose kids. The kids get pulled out, get intervention, and the kid never gets a "diagnosis" at all. Self esteem or something I guess.

But yeah, I'm glad you were able to get better access!!! There's another district a bit from us that is like yours (upscale, LOTS of training for their IEP teams, etc.) and they are very forward giving diagnoses and making things happen. I guess it just depends on the community and the vibe. 

[Carrie12345]

Just to add some context to my perspective, I promise I’m empathetic to the plight of teachers. I would never be a public school teacher these days. It’s too much.  
That said, a child who interrupts class constantly, can’t hold still, and can’t keep track of belongings so he has to be disciplined constantly seems to me (in my opinion and in my experience as an adhd’er and parent to an adhd’er and a co-op teacher to neurodivergent kids 5-18) much more work than a kid who is receiving hep with their situation, yk?

And I do know that laws don’t magically make schools comply. My sister (a child therapist) had a hell of a time getting the process started for her kids.

Also, I didn’t mean to imply that a school social worker would necessarily be called in for interventions in the academic area, but there are most definitely schools who have social workers working with behavioral issues. Heck, there are school social workers in rich districts doing nothing but social-emotional health policy and practice. (I’ve been watching way too many Day In My Life SW TikToks!)

 

[Heartstrings]

4 hours ago, DawnM said:

 

I would want more information on the stranger's story.   That isn't even legal.   Once a school knows of a disability they have 60 days to hold an IEP meeting.   She could sue them easily if what she is saying is true.   I think there is a lot more to that story than she is telling you.

 

You might be right, 100%.  But I see stories every day if schools just out right lying and not following the law.  I follow 2 advocates on social media and they have stories daily about schools just not following the law until parents bring in big guns.  It really seems like unless the school assesses you to be a parent who will hire an advocate or hire a lawyer they will use strung you along.  They don’t do what’s right until you make them.  Not all schools, but enough to be a common pattern.  

[gardenmom5]

31 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Ironically, in our area the poorer school district is much more willing to do evals and give IEPs/504 as warranted. In the "rich" district next door, there's pressure NOT to diagnose kids. The kids get pulled out, get intervention, and the kid never gets a "diagnosis" at all. Self esteem or something I guess.

But yeah, I'm glad you were able to get better access!!! There's another district a bit from us that is like yours (upscale, LOTS of training for their IEP teams, etc.) and they are very forward giving diagnoses and making things happen. I guess it just depends on the community and the vibe. 

I'm in a "rich" district - this is my experience.
My friend taught in a different "rich" district.

[math teacher]

I'm sorry for this situation, and hope I can provide a little insight. There is probably more to the story. 

A little background: I teach first grade, all subjects, my students are with me all day. In order to start the process for testing, we have to start collecting work samples and documentation. This must be filled out online and shared with our principal. We are not allowed to tell parents to request testing. I'm not sure how they are supposed to get testing started since they are probably depending on the teacher to suggest it. Request must be made to assistant principal. Once request is made, school has 45 school days to test. This following is what makes me the angriest: They will push it out and use all those days. 

Last year, teachers could tell parents to ask for testing. I sent 6 or 7 students for testing, filled out buckets of paperwork, made copies of tons of samples. All of this takes Time. Diagnostician sat on the requests like they usually do for the entire time. School gets ready to start for this year and I am called to go to 3 IEP meetings-taking time that I could be using to get ready for the current year. Also given a 15 page booklet to fill out on a former student just a week ago. 

All of the hours I spent saving, copying, filing, and filling out tedious paperwork-and the second grade teacher is the one who benefits from all my work. Yes, the students benefit as well, but there is not much incentive for a first grade teacher to spend these hours when she gets no classroom help for it. I probably work 20 hours over contract time a week. I love the students, and I love teaching them, but admin is squeezing the life out of us.

[Boymama5]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Ironically, in our area the poorer school district is much more willing to do evals and give IEPs/504 as warranted. In the "rich" district next door, there's pressure NOT to diagnose kids. The kids get pulled out, get intervention, and the kid never gets a "diagnosis" at all. Self esteem or something I guess.

But yeah, I'm glad you were able to get better access!!! There's another district a bit from us that is like yours (upscale, LOTS of training for their IEP teams, etc.) and they are very forward giving diagnoses and making things happen. I guess it just depends on the community and the vibe. 

That’s the same for us. 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

The teacher hauled me up to the Vice principal’s office and got my mom in as well (who volunteered there every day) and lectured me- told my mom very clearly I was going to end up in prison. No one asked WHY l did it.  

And parents of kids like this who ask their kids the why so that they can FIX it are helicopter parents who are making excuses for their kid. And if you are one of those parents and your kid can’t reliably tell you because they have an undiagnosed language issue that won’t be discovered for a few more years (2e kids are fun)…well, not much good happens.

Sometimes teachers and admin can’t see how their own inconsistencies also lead kids and parents to misunderstand issues as well—if you always do xyz or abc to communicate the most mundane details, then don’t get butt hurt when you do neither of those things about something that’s a big deal, and you suddenly presume parents know what’s going on that you didn’t tell them.

(Not a good week with school communication here and it’s bringing up bad memories—we homeschooled in the years between those incidents.)

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Ironically, in our area the poorer school district is much more willing to do evals and give IEPs/504 as warranted. In the "rich" district next door, there's pressure NOT to diagnose kids. The kids get pulled out, get intervention, and the kid never gets a "diagnosis" at all. Self esteem or something I guess.

In our state, there are some metrics they can get scores low on if having an IEP exempts kids from testing, etc. because it can lead to delayed graduations  and such. It’s indirect, but they know it’s ultimately connected.

On the flip side, some schools are in trouble for overidentifying kids as needing IEPs when the kids are disadvantaged. Or some schools in some parts of the country are in trouble for overidentifying kids if color for services—in those districts, it can be really tough for a non-white kid with only mild to moderate ADHD or autism to get an IEP as an overcorrection to a real problem. I used to see news articles about this now and then, and I know a nearby district that is notorious for not accommodating kids posted this information about their district in a fairly easy to find place—I assume to justify how hard it is to get an IEP there.

[Zoo Keeper]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

You might be right, 100%.  But I see stories every day if schools just out right lying and not following the law.  I follow 2 advocates on social media and they have stories daily about schools just not following the law until parents bring in big guns.  It really seems like unless the school assesses you to be a parent who will hire an advocate or hire a lawyer they will use strung you along.  They don’t do what’s right until you make them.  Not all schools, but enough to be a common pattern.  

This is how it went down for my family as homeschoolers in the district.  We were trying to access evals for my one who was struggling for years.  I formally submitted paperwork.  It was "lost."  So sorry. 🙄 I re-submitted it.  Crickets...  I called the offices and was told that "the ones who handle that are currently on leave."  I ended up going to the superintendent's office in person and letting multiple staff members know that I have the legal right to access these services...  We got an appt for evals within days.  🙂  And an personal apology from the district superintendent.

[TechWife]

In my opinion, the best hire a church could make would be a social worker. That’s what I’d try to do. Catholic Charities hires social workers and parachurch ministries, like shelters & food banks, hire them as well. I’d like to have them on every church staff as people trained to handle a wide variety of needs. Additionally they could provide educational content to staff, volunteers, and the congregation. 

[Ting Tang]

I live in Illinois. Unless you have a lot of money at your disposal, it is incredibly difficult to get a diagnosis.  The school dismissed my son from his IEP just prior to the start of Kindergarten.  He had one while in developmental preschool.

I then asked the pediatrician to submit a referral.  I received a letter stating it would take a year to get an appointment.  Now it has been a year, and we have one set for October.  If something is suspected, it will be at least another six months for another evaluation.

If you have to cancel your appointment, it starts all over again.  

Maybe there just are not enough resources?  My husband doesn't even want to go through all of this.  This same "system" told me my son was "quirky" and didn't need an IEP anymore.  It wasn't one person. It was a room full of specialists.

Homeschooling him can be challenging, but I really haven't had enough positive insight to expect anyone can do anything better for him at our local school.  That school has a revolving door for teachers and principals.

I do believe a diagnosis may be helpful in the future.  I hope by the time he is an adult, people are more understanding of neurodivergence.  

Of course, it stings a bit when public school teachers jump on homeschool posts and say public education is superior to homeschooling.  I wish homeschooling for us was an option, not a necessity.  

[Corraleno]

My 2E kid spent one utterly miserable year in PS and never did get the testing we requested. And testing was the only reason we moved him from a Montessori school where he was happy (and adored by his teacher, who totally "got" him) to PS, because even though he was happy there he was falling further and further behind "grade level" and his teacher recommended getting testing. PS refused testing unless he was enrolled, so I put him in PS to repeat 3rd grade and requested testing.

Then they said they couldn't do testing until after an "RTI" — Response to Intervention. So they gave him 1 hour/week of pull out tutoring, which turned out to be nothing but test prep to try to keep his test scores from tanking their average. He and 2 other little boys in his class lost recess privileges nearly every day. The teacher stuck them in the back of the class "so they wouldn't disturb the other students" instead of putting them up front where they could see her and not be so distracted. She spoke very quietly, often with her back to the class, and if DS asked her a question or asked her to repeat something she would refuse and snap at him for "not paying attention." 

Over the course of the year he went from being a smart, bubbly, confident kid who could tell you all about mesozoic marine reptiles but could not read or write or do math due to undiagnosed ADHD and dyslexia, to a miserable, stressed out kid who was hitting himself in the head and crying about how "stupid" and "useless" he was. And he never did get any testing through the PS, after putting him through all that I ended up paying thousands OOP for private testing, and then we started homeschooling.

[PeterPan]

42 minutes ago, Zoo Keeper said:

It was "lost." 

Our school district "lost" my original request when I brought up the question of timelines and whether we were on track, but happily *I* had not lost it. Your legal rights don't stop even if they "lose" your paperwork. That's how SN Coor get fired. 😉 Anything that costs the school district a lot of money when taken to court will have heads rolling and they know it. 

4 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

PS refused testing unless he was enrolled, so I put him in PS to repeat 3rd grade and requested testing.

Then they said they couldn't do testing until after an "RTI" — Response to Intervention.

It's amazing how much junk they just make up. And the sad thing is as parents we don't realize they're not telling us the law straight, sigh.

[PeterPan]

31 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

This same "system" told me my son was "quirky" and didn't need an IEP anymore. 

What I'm hearing a lot locally is that ASD1 is not given an IEP. So if you walk in with an ASD2 or 3 diagnosis, you can get an IEP with autism as your disabling condition. If it's ASD1, the assumption is you are fine with a 504 or nothing. They don't do an IEP for OT only and the assumption is the ASD1 kids don't need SLP services, are able to main stream, etc. etc. We ended up having to fight to get ds' support level for his autism clarified, which was awful, and then we went back with our data and got ds' disabling condition changed to autism on his IEP. 

It's all about definitions and legal tidbits and hoops they set up. ASD1 is a really tricky situation in that sense, because by all rights the person DOES need intervention/support as that's the very POINT of calling it AUTISM SUPPORT LEVEL 1. This whole idea that only 2 and 3 need services is outside the law and may or may not be outside the guidance from your state dept of ed. If no other issues (SLDs, language, anxiety, etc.) are present, then yeah that's what you're left fighting over.

Depending on the age, there's some interesting testing you can do privately that can compel the school to create goals and write the IEP. Narrative language, metalinguistics, and the SLDT are the things to look at. An SLP specializing in autism and expressive language will often have these super detailed tests and know how to put enough data together to make something happen. So it's not so much the psych diagnosis as the SLP evals that get you there, at least in our state.

[Tree Frog]

I'm a newly minted alternative certificate Sp Ed teacher after being a long term sub in special ed. In my school district, requests for evaluations need to be in writing and supported by data. Once the request is received, the clock starts ticking. If a parent doesn't make a request and the teacher sees the student struggling, they have to go through 3 cycles of data collection (RtI or MTSS- our district is shifting) with increased supports at each level. If after the 3rd level, the student still isn't progressing, they are referred for testing. Each level of data collection takes about 6 weeks to see if the increased supports are beneficial, so it is time consuming. @Corraleno, I'm sorry the school did such a poor job with your son. If RtI is properly implemented, Tier 1 is provided for all students. At Tier 2, students are pulled for small groups in whatever subject they're struggling. If they are continuing to struggle at the end of Tier 2, they move to Tier 3, where they should receive one on one pull out support instead of small groups. After Tier 3, students are tested. It takes time and I can understand the frustration seeing your student continue to fall behind as they move through the tiers. 

Students started a week ago. We have been inundated with students with significant needs throughout the school; the estimation is that a third of our school needs or currently receives services. One of our K classes has 23 students, 8 of which are either already identified as special needs or suspected special needs. There are 2 full time teachers in this class, the gen ed teacher and a (sub-alt cert) collab teacher, plus the case manager is usually there. In our district, students are identified as either OHI or Speech until they are between 3-5 years old and are tested. Many seem to be tested in K to find specific needs. Three of them aren't potty trained. 2 of them qualified for services either last year or 2 years ago, but parents either didn't complete paperwork (needed a form from a doctor) or didn't want their child to attend yet. Had they attended last year, needs could have been further identified and the student would have had supports in place at the beginning of school.

When you combine the increased need for services, the decreased availability of special ed teachers, and the high, frequently unrealistic expectations placed on current special ed teachers, there are going to be problems. I had a student last year who transferred to our school because we offered the type of classroom this student needed. During the ARD, the parent expressed pleasant surprise that we provided the draft ARD in advance and we explained things as we went along. There are huge differences between schools and staff even within the same district. I believe admin has a lot to do with that.

Our governor this year has suggested reducing property taxes by eliminating the school tax and using surplus funds to fund the schools. He hasn't explained how the schools will be funded once the surplus funds are reduced/eliminated. It's crazy that when increased funds are needed to find/keep enough special ed teachers/school psychologists, support testing, and provide supports for students, funding is decreasing. 

 

 

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, Tree Frog said:

inundated

Those stats are wild! I hope you have a good year. If you are looking for any interesting materials, I have all kinds of things I used with my ds that I'll be looking to sell off at some point (Talkies, Verbalizing/Visualizing, LIPS, Story Champs, Social Thinking materials, etc.). 

[Tree Frog]

 

5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Those stats are wild! I hope you have a good year. If you are looking for any interesting materials, I have all kinds of things I used with my ds that I'll be looking to sell off at some point (Talkies, Verbalizing/Visualizing, LIPS, Story Champs, Social Thinking materials, etc.). 

My class is behavior based, so anything that falls along those lines, like the Social Thinking materials, I would be interested in. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Tree Frog
Added info

[Shelydon]

I think it is absolutely impossible for one teacher to provide an individual education to 30 3rd graders.  And that is what parents want.  It is an impossible task and the mass exodus from teaching shows we have asked to much of our teachers.  So-- schools don't evaluate because teachers already have 20 IEPs in the classroom and can't handle one more.  My SIL is a music teacher.  She sees 500 students each week for once a week music class.  350 have IEPs.  She has to write 350 individual notes each week on how she met each IEP.  She quit this year.  Walked away.   Schools need to have a teacher for every 5 kids if that much individual teaching is needed.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Shelydon

[PeterPan]

20 minutes ago, Tree Frog said:

 

My class is behavior based, so anything that falls along those lines, like the Social Thinking materials, I would be interested in. 

I'll pm you.

[Ting Tang]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

What I'm hearing a lot locally is that ASD1 is not given an IEP. So if you walk in with an ASD2 or 3 diagnosis, you can get an IEP with autism as your disabling condition. If it's ASD1, the assumption is you are fine with a 504 or nothing. They don't do an IEP for OT only and the assumption is the ASD1 kids don't need SLP services, are able to main stream, etc. etc. We ended up having to fight to get ds' support level for his autism clarified, which was awful, and then we went back with our data and got ds' disabling condition changed to autism on his IEP. 

It's all about definitions and legal tidbits and hoops they set up. ASD1 is a really tricky situation in that sense, because by all rights the person DOES need intervention/support as that's the very POINT of calling it AUTISM SUPPORT LEVEL 1. This whole idea that only 2 and 3 need services is outside the law and may or may not be outside the guidance from your state dept of ed. If no other issues (SLDs, language, anxiety, etc.) are present, then yeah that's what you're left fighting over.

Depending on the age, there's some interesting testing you can do privately that can compel the school to create goals and write the IEP. Narrative language, metalinguistics, and the SLDT are the things to look at. An SLP specializing in autism and expressive language will often have these super detailed tests and know how to put enough data together to make something happen. So it's not so much the psych diagnosis as the SLP evals that get you there, at least in our state.

That is interesting. I had no idea.  I am wondering if it is worth it to even go through the process here.  My son is 10.  My husband thinks this is going to cause my son to have low self-esteem, and I see why he thinks that way.  On the same note, if I could narrow down what causes his trouble in school, then I would know what I should be doing.  😞  

[bookbard]

Reading these replies, I am curious about the system in the USA. So if a parent thinks their child has some sort of special need, they ask the school to assess and diagnose? It doesn't really work that way in Australia - you go to your doctor and they would refer to a paediatrician, who can diagnose. You can also get it done at a children's hospital who will use a team to diagnose (long waiting list though). For giftedness, it's a psychologist, and it's expensive - the cheaper alternative is to find a university who are training students. They will assess for giftedness for a few hundred, vs 2 thousand.

While technically school counsellors can diagnose, they wouldn't do the majority of kids, they're too busy. My kids' school had equivalent of one day a month with the counsellor. 

 

[Corraleno]

9 minutes ago, bookbard said:

Reading these replies, I am curious about the system in the USA. So if a parent thinks their child has some sort of special need, they ask the school to assess and diagnose? It doesn't really work that way in Australia - you go to your doctor and they would refer to a paediatrician, who can diagnose. You can also get it done at a children's hospital who will use a team to diagnose (long waiting list though). For giftedness, it's a psychologist, and it's expensive - the cheaper alternative is to find a university who are training students. They will assess for giftedness for a few hundred, vs 2 thousand.

While technically school counsellors can diagnose, they wouldn't do the majority of kids, they're too busy. My kids' school had equivalent of one day a month with the counsellor. 

 

In the US you can (theoretically) get an ADHD diagnosis from a pediatrician, but most will refer to a psychiatrist or other professional. Testing for learning disabilities is generally done by a psychologist trained in that area, as that's not something a pediatrician can diagnose. It involves a whole battery of tests that measure things like general IQ, processing speed, working memory, and other categories I don't remember, as well as various reading and math issues and some emotional issues like anxiety and depression. DS's ADHD was formally diagnosed by a psychiatrist and his first round of testing was by an educational psychologist at age 10, and then he needed to be retested in HS to get accommodations for the SAT & ACT, and that was done by a pediatric psychiatrist at the local children's hospital.

For 2E kids ("twice exceptional," meaning gifted + learning disabilities), it gets complicated, because often the high IQ partially compensates for the learning disabilities, so you end up with kids who are extremely bright but are struggling and getting Cs because they can't read well due to dyslexia, or they struggle in math due to slow processing speed and poor working memory, etc. So you need detailed testing to tease that out, otherwise you end up with very bright but super frustrated kids who often just give up, whereas with some accommodations they are able to achieve their full potential. DS went from barely being able to read and write at a low 2nd grade level after slogging through 3rd grade twice without accommodations (once in Montessori school, once in PS), to excelling while homeschooled, getting scholarships to a top college, and now he's in grad school. If I had not been in a position to homeschool him, and to pay privately for the necessary testing, he likely would not have even made it through PS high school and would have dropped out at 16, because he was so frustrated and angry and full of self-loathing thinking he was "defective."

[katilac]

14 minutes ago, bookbard said:

Reading these replies, I am curious about the system in the USA. So if a parent thinks their child has some sort of special need, they ask the school to assess and diagnose? It doesn't really work that way in Australia - you go to your doctor and they would refer to a paediatrician, who can diagnose. You can also get it done at a children's hospital who will use a team to diagnose (long waiting list though). For giftedness, it's a psychologist, and it's expensive - the cheaper alternative is to find a university who are training students. They will assess for giftedness for a few hundred, vs 2 thousand.

While technically school counsellors can diagnose, they wouldn't do the majority of kids, they're too busy. My kids' school had equivalent of one day a month with the counsellor. 

 

I'm in the USA. There can be a lot of variance, because school districts are very local, but that was my first thought: why wouldn't the grandma in the OP simply get the kid tested for ADHD outside of the school system? I guess their pediatrician doesn't diagnose, which is fine, but they're three years in and still fighting the school for an eval? Just get it done somewhere else. 

From the description, this sounds like a kid whose problems are not going to be solved by a few accommodations. It sounds like they either need meds (which the school can't prescribe), and/or a level of coaching and assistance that the school will not be able to provide. 

11 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

 And has straight As. 

There's the answer. Schools are concerned with issues that affect the student's education. Someone getting straight A's is not going to get a referral for evaluation. I find it hard to believe that the pediatrician had never suggested an alternative to school testing! I actually don't understand why the ped doesn't just dx it, if they're so certain the child has it. 

What's your friend's reasoning for not getting their son evaluated? I'd think a psychologist, of all people, would understand the importance of getting expert help for learning coping strategies and so forth. A school isn't going to refer for evaluation because a kid forgets their pencils. I feel for the kid if he's routinely getting in trouble for stuff like this, but it sounds like something for the parents to handle more so than the school. The teacher doesn't have time to teach the kid coping strategies, y'know? Or even the knowledge to do so, necessarily, but they might be open to simple accommodations that are suggested by a professional. 

Neither one of examples sounds like a case where the schools are ignoring regulations they are supposed to follow. The first kid is doing very well educationally, and the second kid is getting into very minor and typical trouble. 

12 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

 What is a parent-figure supposed to do???

Get their kid evaluated? 

[Shoeless]

The evaluations are costly. If you don't have insurance or you have lousy insurance, you are looking at thousands of dollars at specialists. 

The schools have to provide evaluations for free. 

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, katilac said:

I guess their pediatrician doesn't diagnose, which is fine, but they're three years in and still fighting the school for an eval? Just get it done somewhere else. 

I have been told that pediatrician diagnosis isn’t enough for an IEP.  If you want an IEP you have to have a psychiatrist do the diagnosis. That’s how our local schools do it, or at least what they tell parents.  

Edited September 2, 2023 by Heartstrings

[katilac]

13 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

In the US you can (theoretically) get an ADHD diagnosis from a pediatrician, but most will refer to a psychiatrist or other professional. Testing for learning disabilities is generally done by a psychologist trained in that area, as that's not something a pediatrician can diagnose. It involves a whole battery of tests that measure things like general IQ, processing speed, working memory, and other categories I don't remember, as well as various reading and math issues and some emotional issues like anxiety and depression. DS's ADHD was formally diagnosed by a psychiatrist and his first round of testing was by an educational psychologist at age 10, and then he needed to be retested in HS to get accommodations for the SAT & ACT, and that was done by a pediatric psychiatrist at the local children's hospital.

 

ADD/ADHD is not classified as a learning disability. I know some people disagree with that, but that's where it stands. 

The whole battery of tests may be the ideal, but a test for what is strongly suspected to be the main problem is a whole lot better than nothing. 

There are a whole lot of kids who are never going to have multiple batteries of tests by multiple professionals, and I think it's crazy to not attempt what the parent/grownup can get done. Pediatricians can diagnose it, psychologists can diagnose it, various licensed counselors and therapists can diagnose it. 

Something is better than nothing, and some help is better than no help. 

[Lecka]

Something I have seen — people chat with the teacher for a long time.  But they don’t actually write a letter requesting an evaluation.  Because how are people supposed to know to do that, if they don’t know to do that?

 

 

[katilac]

4 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

The evaluations are costly. If you don't have insurance or you have lousy insurance, you are looking at thousands of dollars at specialists. 

The schools have to provide evaluations for free. 

An ADD/ADHD evaluation does not have to cost thousands. An extremely expensive evaluation that looks at every factor may be better, but it's better to do what you are able to do than nothing. And the school, while they will use more than one specialist, is generally not going to meet that level of evaluation, either. 

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I have been told that pediatrician diagnosis isn’t enough for an IEP.   

I don't think a kid with straight A's has much hope of getting an IEP. A pediatrician diagnosis would enable a trial of medications, and is enough for many teachers to agree to some informal accommodations.  

[Shoeless]

8 minutes ago, katilac said:

An ADD/ADHD evaluation does not have to cost thousands. An extremely expensive evaluation that looks at every factor may be better, but it's better to do what you are able to do than nothing. And the school, while they will use more than one specialist, is generally not going to meet that level of evaluation, either. 

I live in a rural area with a lot of poverty. Even if the eval is "just" a couple hundred, people do not have that money. Most of them don't have health insurance. Zero financial ability for private-pay. 

The workup for my son at the dev ped was going to be $1500 without insurance. That is more than my mortgage payment. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Shoeless

[bookbard]

I know a paediatrician in the USA is different from Australia - in Australia they are a specialist, you need a referral, and they can diagnose adhd, autism, whatever. I have just been reading up and it appears that from late last year, a GP (family doctor) can diagnose and provide meds for ADHD. This was after much lobbying by the AMA (Australian Medical Association). 

However, a diagnosis of ADHD, Autism etc will still only provide certain accommodations. The school may get funding for a teacher aide (for a few hours) or may allow a quiet space, extra time in exams. But the school can't actually provide intervention. We do have NDIS (federal) funding which provides the child with a chunk of money to be used for speech therapy, OT, other intervention. It's sadly been quite medicalised. When I worked in the field, we coordinated with schools a great deal, but I don't know how much that happens now. 

Anyway, I guess my point is that there's a real separation of what happens in schools and what happens outside schools. School goals are generally to complete a set curriculum in a set time. They will try to do as best they can to push the cohort of students through that, but the bigger picture is kind of beyond their ability. That's why empowering families is really important - getting a diagnosis outside school and intervention outside school (eg regular psych appts - they are subsidised here, but only by about half). 

[Corraleno]

20 minutes ago, katilac said:

ADD/ADHD is not classified as a learning disability. I know some people disagree with that, but that's where it stands. 

The whole battery of tests may be the ideal, but a test for what is strongly suspected to be the main problem is a whole lot better than nothing. 

There are a whole lot of kids who are never going to have multiple batteries of tests by multiple professionals, and I think it's crazy to not attempt what the parent/grownup can get done. Pediatricians can diagnose it, psychologists can diagnose it, various licensed counselors and therapists can diagnose it. 

Something is better than nothing, and some help is better than no help. 

I agree that something is better than nothing, but there are many kids with learning disabilities who do not have ADHD, and pediatricians can't diagnose LDs like dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia, and other processing disorders. DS is severely dyslexic and that is actually a much bigger academic issue for him and requires more accommodations than ADHD. Also, in my experience, pediatricians may be reluctant to diagnose ADHD because that is often followed by a request for medication and many peds don't want to prescribe stimulants for kids. DS had two really excellent peds when he was under 18, who were really flexible and open-minded and patient-focused, but neither were willing to diagnose a kid with ADHD and insisted he see a psychiatrist for that. 

IMO it's inexcusable for schools to not provide testing for learning disabilities, I can only imagine how many millions of kids there are like DS, whose families can't afford private testing, who just get chewed up and spit out by a PS system that would rather write them off as stupid, lazy, and "not trying hard enough."  The system is so broken, it's heartbreaking.

[katilac]

7 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

I live in a rural area with a lot of poverty. Even if the eval is "just" a couple hundred, people do not have that money. Most of them don't have health insurance. Zero financial ability for private-pay. 

The workup for my son at the dev ped was going to be $1500 without insurance. That is more than my mortgage payment. 

Sure, but a couple of hundred is certainly different than a couple of thousand or more. I didn't say that every single person in the world has the ability to go to the doctor, but it's clearly a choice for many more people than a full developmental workup. In both of the cases the OP listed, it seems like it's highly unlikely they will qualify for a school evaluation, but highly likely that they can and do go to the doctor. 

As far as I'm aware, I know zero people who took their kid to a developmental pediatrician for an ADD eval. 

 

[Shoeless]

1 minute ago, katilac said:

Sure, but a couple of hundred is certainly different than a couple of thousand or more. I didn't say that every single person in the world has the ability to go to the doctor, but it's clearly a choice for many more people than a full developmental workup. In both of the cases the OP listed, it seems like it's highly unlikely they will qualify for a school evaluation, but highly likely that they can and do go to the doctor. 

As far as I'm aware, I know zero people who took their kid to a developmental pediatrician for an ADD eval. 

 

I took mine there, because that's where his regular pediatrician said to go. So now you know of one person who did that. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

a PS system that would rather write them off as stupid, lazy, and "not trying hard enough."  The system is so broken, it's heartbreaking.

Observing this up close makes me mind-boggled when I come here and everyone is rah-rah public school.

It's really a moral injury watching the way autistic children, in particular, are treated in schools. But also those with trauma, anxiety, ADHD, dyslexia, dyscalculia, and even physical disabilities.

But the main point of schools isn't to treat children holistically and as well as a good parent might.

The main goal of schools is 1. childcare and 2. moving cohorts of children through a curriculum. 

 

 

[katilac]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I agree that something is better than nothing, but there are many kids with learning disabilities who do not have ADHD <snip>

IMO it's inexcusable for schools to not provide testing for learning disabilities, I can only imagine how many millions of kids there are like DS, whose families can't afford private testing, who just get chewed up and spit out by a PS system that would rather write them off as stupid, lazy, and "not trying hard enough."  The system is so broken, it's heartbreaking.

Sure, but ADHD was the example in both of the stories. 

I think it's unfair, really, to say the public school system would rather write these kids off. I think what the public school system would prefer is to have the funding and the resources to handle things in the best manner possible, but, as that isn't the case, they have to triage and do the best they can. I'd personally change that statement to American society at large isn't willing to treat the education system like the foundational support of society that it is.  

1 minute ago, Shoeless said:

I took mine there, because that's where his regular pediatrician said to go. So now you know of one person who did that. 

Oh, I know of many people who have done that, through online communities. But I don't know anyone who has done that (so far as I'm aware). 

[katilac]

10 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

 The main goal of schools is 1. childcare and 2. moving cohorts of children through a curriculum. 

Plus, a tremendous amount of effort goes into logistics that have aren't directly related to education. Classroom management, lunch schedules, moving hordes of children from one location to another . . . 

Edited to add, in relation to being being rah-rah about public schools: I don't know how it works where you are, but the American school system is hyper-local. Lots of people genuinely do have great experiences with public schools, and some schools/districts really do have great special education programs and/or supports. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by katilac

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, katilac said:

Plus, a tremendous amount of effort goes into logistics that have aren't directly related to education. Classroom management, lunch schedules, moving hordes of children from one location to another . . . 

Yep.

Schools are massive ships with limited agility. 

I sort of find it interesting (as someone who sacrificed a lot to keep her autistic child out of the system) that we expect the system to be responsive. I think I always had low expectations of school. 

 

[Shoeless]

1 minute ago, katilac said:

Sure, but ADHD was the example in both of the stories. 

I think it's unfair, really, to say the public school system would rather write these kids off. I think what the public school system would prefer is to have the funding and the resources to handle things in the best manner possible, but, as that isn't the case, they have to triage and do the best they can. I'd personally change that statement to American society at large isn't willing to treat the education system like the foundational support of society that it is.  

Oh, I know of many people who have done that, through online communities. But I don't know anyone who has done that (so far as I'm aware). 

Ok? 

I'm not following your point in this thread. It sounded like you were implying that if the parents cared, they just take their kid somewhere and get a diagnosis. Just get on with it and stop griping.  And my point is that this sort of care has a lot of barriers. Insurance and money is a huge one, and if you are poor and have a choice between free services at school or a hundred bucks at a specialist, you're going to pick "free". 

[rebcoola]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

. 

I don't think a kid with straight A's has much hope of getting an IEP. A pediatrician diagnosis would enable a trial of medications, and is enough for many teachers to agree to some informal accommodations.  

A kids with ADHD with good grades would be eligible for a 504 not an IEP in my experience.

[Pawz4me]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

What I'm hearing a lot locally is that ASD1 is not given an IEP. So if you walk in with an ASD2 or 3 diagnosis, you can get an IEP with autism as your disabling condition. If it's ASD1, the assumption is you are fine with a 504 or nothing.

It's been that way here for a good while. Even though we had an extremely thorough evaluation report from a private psychologist, including educational accommodation recommendations, the school system said that DS (2E, ASD-1, GAD) probably didn't qualify for any accommodations and that if he did it would likely be due to the GAD diagnosis, not ASD-1. Although it didn't really matter--he was doing fine and I was just laying groundwork in case he hit a wall in college--I was kind of gobsmacked that there might be other ASD-1 kids who did need accommodations and the system would automatically say no.