So, why do you wear a bra?

[MercyA]

Never mind. 🙂

Edited August 31, 2023 by MercyA

[MercyA]

@TexasProud, I appreciate your honesty in this thread.

I learn a lot from these back-and-forth conversations.

[ArteHaus]

7 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Not to be nit-picky, but the New Testament only specifically forbids multiple wives for elders in the church (1 Timothy 3:12). 

OP, I realize this discussion has gone far afield...sorry. 🙂 

Yes, this is true.

 

[regentrude]

Omg, please let's stop holding women and their attire responsible for men's behavior. 

Women have been lusted over, groped, and raped who were wearing baggy sweatshirts or a burka.

It is also insulting to *men* if they are considered animals who cannot control their urges.

Eta: if my dh were salivating at the sight of a scantily clad woman,  it wouldn't be her fault - he should just engage his frontal lobe.

Edited August 31, 2023 by regentrude

[bolt.]

If men can't handle themselves in the presence of the female form (whether it's completely bare, completely obscured, modified by undergarments, or anywhere in-between) those men are free to act as their natures lead them to act. If their behaviour is antisocial, there will be social consequences. If their behaviour is criminal, there will be legal consequences. If he'd rather not have consequences, he's free to modify his character or exercise self-control.

None of this has anything to do with the form of the body of the woman in question. Women's role in the situation is to make sure the social and legal consequences of unwanted behaviour are sufficient to deter the behaviour. No responsibility for men's conduct can be assigned to women in this area. No women should feel ashamed nor perceive themselves and a proximate cause of whatever choice a man might make. There is no moral philosophy argument that can get from point A to point B on this topic.

Of course, women are free, as a matter of personal choice, to choose clothing that they believe will reduce their chances of adverse behaviour being directed at them -- but that's not a moral choice, it's a practical choice. The moral choices all belong to the man in this scenario.

[ArteHaus]

17 minutes ago, bolt. said:

The moral choices all belong to the man in this scenario.

That is unjust.

Are women above the Laws of Nature?

Why are men subject  to morality, while women are not?

Our nakedness is our shame, that is a Law that just is. It is applicable to men and women alike, matriarchy or patriarchy notwithstanding.

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by ArteHaus

[regentrude]

12 minutes ago, ArteHaus said:

Our nakedness is our shame, that is a Law that just is. 

This is nonsense. It just is.

Edited August 31, 2023 by regentrude
Removed stronger wording

[teachermom2834]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Omg, please let's stop holding women and their attire responsible for men's behavior. 

Women have been lusted over, groped, and raped who were wearing baggy sweatshirts or a burka.

It is also insulting to *men* if they are considered animals who cannot control their urges.

Eta: if my dh were salivating at the sight of a scantily clad woman,  it wouldn't be her fault - he should just engage his frontal lobe.

Yes this so much. My dd is in a co-Ed dance class for PE at her high school. She was the most modestly dressed girl in there wearing baggy sweats and a loose t shirt while the other girls wore tight shorts and tanks. She was the girl who got sexually harassed. 
 

BTW the school took care of it but it was honestly a good lesson for my dd that it isn’t what she wears that brings this stuff on. She can be overly modest sometimes and I think these messages of being responsible for the boys have gotten to her so while the things the boys said to her were rude it did show her that it was NOT about how she was dressed or how she carried herself. 

[ArteHaus]

41 minutes ago, regentrude said:

This is nonsense. It just is.

You should have kept your original sentence, it made your retort somewhat less vapid, while simultaneously indicating a lack in your intellectual prowess.🤪

 

 

[bolt.]

Under moral arguments where humans are subject to the law of nature, women would be included in that authority structure.

It is an additional term to say that "one believes" nudity-as-shame to be a component of the law of nature.

And it is an additional term beyond that to suggest there is a differentiation between nudity-shame-for-female-bodies, and nudity-shame-for-male-bodies.

And it is a number of additional terms beyond that to stretch one's meaning of nudity to include things like breasts worn without bras (but with clothing) and lower portions clad in skinny jeans.

And even if you made all those stretches it would still yeild the conclusion that a woman clad outside of those arbitrarily defined terms (sourced in no authority whatsoever) was 'shamed' regardless of the feelings or conduct, or even the presence, of any male bystanders to her conduct.

[Pam in CT]

Sometime during lockdown I noticed that one of my daughters (who, like me, is small boobed, no jingle) didn't ever wear a bra and I thought to myself,

Quote

huh. I didn't know that was an option.

I went onto Amazon -- in those days, every time the truck rolled down the driveway somebody would shout CARGO!!!! -- and ordered a couple of cotton tank tops with a built in shelf bra -- more than sufficient to cover any nipple business, softer and less abrasive than any actual bra -- and I've never looked back. I now have perhaps 10 of those things in every shade I wear, some more fitted that I wear under more dressed-up jackets and sweaters, others with sport backs for yoga, others loose & flowing. I wear them as my base layer in cold weather and my only layer in warm.

Never looking back.

(I'm not big enough to jiggle, so I dunno if they have enough support to deal with that. Certainly they do not have enough support to alleviate back pain.)

[historically accurate]

I had a double mastectomy about 13 years ago. I quit wearing a bra at that time, and I've never looked back. Prior to that, I just wore one because it's just what you do; I don't think I had ever thought about it. 

[ktgrok]

57 minutes ago, regentrude said:

This is nonsense. It just is.

That's the point. When someone continues to post controversial nonsense it becomes clear that they want someone to call them out on it. It's not worth it. 

[ArteHaus]

20 minutes ago, bolt. said:

Under moral arguments where humans are subject to the law of nature, women would be included in that authority structure.

It is an additional term to say that "one believes" nudity-as-shame to be a component of the law of nature.

And it is an additional term beyond that to suggest there is a differentiation between nudity-shame-for-female-bodies, and nudity-shame-for-male-bodies.

And it is a number of additional terms beyond that to stretch one's meaning of nudity to include things like breasts worn without bras (but with clothing) and lower portions clad in skinny jeans.

And even if you made all those stretches it would still yeild the conclusion that a woman clad outside of those arbitrarily defined terms (sourced in no authority whatsoever) was 'shamed' regardless of the feelings or conduct, or even the presence, of any male bystanders to her conduct.

Nudity is shameful. This is why most people would cringe at the thought of parading their nude bodies around their children. Nudity has it’s place, and it isn’t a public display, that would be shameful. 

There are differences between male and female bodies. However, the displaying of sexual organs either explicitly or through one’s clothing is lowbrow. 

I can assure you my skinny jeans showed every nook and cranny, hill and valley, and…..ding ding ding, I knew it. I was well aware of what my body looked like, and so is every woman who leaves her home scantily clad, or braless. You are really trying to say that a man is morally obligated, but that woman is clean? Come now. Clothing is there (for some) to allude to nudity.

The authority is YAH. No man or woman makes Law, but Him. Your contention isn’t with me or men, but YAH and His Word-

Edited August 31, 2023 by ArteHaus

[ArteHaus]

12 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

That's the point. When someone continues to post controversial nonsense it becomes clear that they want someone to call them out on it. It's not worth it. 

Scripture isn’t controversial. Many of you claim Christianity, but when it comes down to it, you will eschew it to be pleasing to other people. It is cowardly. But I guess that is par for the course.

Originally, someone said that Christianity was patriarchal, which is funny, so I was compelled to reply. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

These threads always make me feel a bit sad. I wish I didn't 'jiggle' and bra free was comfortable.

They make me reflect on the trouble these bre@sts bring - the sleazy men who spoke to my chest, mostly. Creeping hands. 

I really wish I was my childhood flat self sometimes. (Don't tell me I can - that's not my speed + $.)

I agree that many women wear a bra because, 'that's what you do' - but it can kind of feel a bit competitive freedom from the bra!

It's just a garment. It doesn't have health implications so idk...wearing or not isn't really a sign of being a good feminist.

Insomnia,  so rambling, but I was the only girl in my high school to make a point about shaving - I didn't, for a whole year. I'm sort of glad I did it. 

Ya know, sometimes I'm not even sure what is feminism. 

Maybe just whatever is the opposite of 'naked is our shame'. 

 

[Pam in CT]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

These threads always make me feel a bit sad. I wish I didn't 'jiggle' and bra free was comfortable.

They make me reflect on the trouble these bre@sts bring - the sleazy men who spoke to my chest, mostly. Creeping hands. 

I really wish I was my childhood flat self sometimes. (Don't tell me I can - that's not my speed + $.)

I agree that many women wear a bra because, 'that's what you do' - but it can kind of feel a bit competitive freedom from the bra!

It's just a garment. It doesn't have health implications so idk...wearing or not isn't really a sign of being a good feminist.

Insomnia,  so rambling, but I was the only girl in my high school to make a point about shaving - I didn't, for a whole year. I'm sort of glad I did it. 

Ya know, sometimes I'm not even sure what is feminism. 

Maybe just whatever is the opposite of 'naked is our shame'. 

 

Yeah, I don't think wearing or not wearing a bra has anything to do with feminism. Feminism (to my old school mind at least) is about agency to make a full range of decisions, not some designation from On High about what the "right" decision is, whether that designation is Thou Must _______ or Thou Must NOT ________.

I don't wear a bra because they *always* left red welt marks on my skin, when I hit menopause and 3.5 years and still going, sigh, of chronic hot flashes I started to get rashes as well; and I don't jiggle or get back pain. If I did, I WOULD wear one... *for my own comfort*, not because of the expectations of patriarchy or bodily shame.

To me, that is what agency looks like.

 

 

There's a special circle in hell for men with creeping hands.  Spiders crawl, slowly, over them, and only bite when the men move.

[MEmama]

3 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Feminism (to my old school mind at least) is about agency to make a full range of decisions, not some designation from On High about what the "right" decision is, whether that designation is Thou Must _______ or Thou Must NOT ________.

 

Yes, this exactly! 

[Melissa Louise]

34 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Yeah, I don't think wearing or not wearing a bra has anything to do with feminism. Feminism (to my old school mind at least) is about agency to make a full range of decisions, not some designation from On High about what the "right" decision is, whether that designation is Thou Must _______ or Thou Must NOT ________.

I don't wear a bra because they *always* left red welt marks on my skin, when I hit menopause and 3.5 years and still going, sigh, of chronic hot flashes I started to get rashes as well; and I don't jiggle or get back pain. If I did, I WOULD wear one... *for my own comfort*, not because of the expectations of patriarchy or bodily shame.

To me, that is what agency looks like.

 

 

There's a special circle in hell for men with creeping hands.  Spiders crawl, slowly, over them, and only bite when the men move.

Yeah, I'm here for other women choosing not to wear bras. I guess agency is a continuum of issues - from bras and the wearing of, to other issues. I'm just prone to feelings of not measuring up ( or measuring up - E cups are not fun).

That is a nicely imagined circle of hell. 

After I posted, I remembered that one of the reasons I took to wearing a sleep bra was to be 'armoured' a little at night, even if only psychologically. 

It can be a complicated thing.

 

 

 

 

[Ginevra]

6 hours ago, ArteHaus said:

It is a respect issue. Women are supposed to have sisterhood, and this isn’t that.

I once wore a see through shirt without a bra when I was 19. I thought I was a hippy and free and all that bs. I am sure a made a man connected to a woman turn his head that day. I regret that, sorely. It feels shameful now-

Another time a few years ago, I wore skinny jeans to a store. I was putting bags into my car and a man walking with his wife/gf, nearly broke his neck to look at me. My husband saw this and was cross with me, and I deserved it. I still cringe over that, and I really had to consider what I was doing/wearing.

Modesty is beautiful and it shows other women (and men) respect. I have learned this through the years, and count it as wisdom gained. 

And you caused his gross behavior, did you? You’re pretty powerful, I guess. 

[ArteHaus]

13 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

And you caused his gross behavior, did you? You’re pretty powerful, I guess. 

Is his behavior gross, or a natural reaction to a woman without discretion?

Both parties are vile-

[Ginevra]

1 hour ago, ArteHaus said:

Is his behavior gross, or a natural reaction to a woman without discretion?

Both parties are vile-

Ok. If you want to call yourself vile because you wore tight-fitting pants, nothing I can do about that. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

12 hours ago, marbel said:

Yes, this is true, but women are often made to feel uncomfortable when nursing in public. When my kids were little I nursed them when and where they needed it but I received nasty comments, was told to go to the restroom, etc. So yeah it may be legal but that doesn't help if the person at the next table in the restaurant is looking at you and making slurping noises. 

Maybe things have changed 1999. I hope so.

My own family gave me a hard time for even breastfeeding past 6 weeks, let alone doing so in public.  I remember going to a mall with my mom and needing to stop and nurse my oldest.  She acted all uncomfortable and asked if I shouldn't be doing that in private.  I told her that if she wanted to eat her lunch in the bathroom, then maybe I'd consider it.  (We were well covered - not a nip or skin in sight.)  

One time I was at my parent's house and my niece and nephew were there - probably preschool and kindergarten age at the time.  As I was feeding my son, they asked me questions about what I was doing  - "why is your baby eating your b00k?"  I just explained what they were for and that some babies nurse and some drink from a bottle.  My sister (the kids' mom) had a cow ... she was livid that I would be "so gross" around her kids.  This is the sis who had no problem swearing like a truck driver or having a TV show inappropriate for young kids on.  

After a while, my family got used to my granola ways and got over themselves. One actually defended me to this nosey old bitty who told me that I needed to feed my baby in the restroom during a family anniversary party at a clubhouse that we rented out.  My name was on the check and she wasn't even supposed to be there.

In 2001, a friend was threatened with a ticket for nursing her child at our local swimming venue - filled with lots of teens wearing next to nothing (no judgement, just an observation of the cognitive dissonance.)  

10 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I always breastfed in public.  I was a bit discreet but did not use a cover.  Older women came up to me all the time to cheer me on, which I did not expect at all.  It was actually really nice.

Lucky you.  When among like-minded friends, I felt supported in my choice to feed my child whenever and wherever necessary.  However, in the general public, if someone figured it out, I got nasty looks, mothers ushering their kids away from the scary "exhibitionist", etc.

10 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

I was more likely to be defended when I tried to breastfeed in public -- I can't even recall a single time someone tried to stop me or shame me, etc. But I got some attaboys. And frankly those were just as offputting. I would have rather been ignored.

I tried to give a knowing smile when I saw a woman breastfeeding in public.  Not a big calling out, but a silent "you got this!"  

[Sneezyone]

On 8/30/2023 at 1:10 PM, theelfqueen said:

I ask because I have an insurance adjustor coming to my house and thought "oh I should go put on a bra"

I'm not so busty that I need one for physical.comfort/to prevent back pain.

I know intellectually that the research indicates that wearing a bra does not "prevent sagging" with age 

I do think some clothes look good with a smoothed and lifted line. So I can see that. 

But I'm sitting here in yoga pants and a tee shirt. Why do I think "I should put on a bra" ? 

I am too busty not to. J cup. Everything that’s not fitted looks like a tent and when I’m not wearing one I look 20 years older so, vanity? I generally enjoy looking put together tho. It raises my don’t F with me/treat me with respect factor in public. At home tho??? OFF. IMMEDIATELY.

[maize]

I'm on the smaller side.

I wear a bra because I cannot stand the feeling of cloth brushing across my nipples.  A bra stays in place. I'm personally far more conformable with a bra on when I am up and moving. 

It's very similar to the reason I have always worn my hair either pulled back or cut short. I can't stand the sensation of hair brushing against my face.

I guess it's not surprising that I have kids with sensory quirks.

[maize]

6 hours ago, ArteHaus said:

Nudity is shameful.

Nah, shaming or not shaming of nudity or various degrees of coveredness is just cultural.

There's value in many instances in living within the behavioral expectations of the culture one finds oneself in, but most of those expectations are ultimately arbitrary.

Edited September 1, 2023 by maize

[Sneezyone]

12 hours ago, marbel said:

I never used a cover either. I think a cover just brings more attention. There were times when people just thought I was holding my sleeping baby.  Now that I'm thinking more about it, I remember that when I was home on the west coast it was fine. It was when we were traveling in north FL and GA that strangers made comments. But even when we were with family, I was shoved off into a room alone so no one would be bothered by me feeding my kid. 🙄

ETA: I mean obviously if people feel more comfortable covering, or if the baby nurses better under a cover, they should do that. I just didn't like a cover for myself. 

I BF in Hawaii. It was blissful. No one said a word. Ever.

[Sneezyone]

ETA: PHEW! From big books swinging free (I noted most of the braless are less well-endowed) to plural marriage being biblically justified, to nudity being Satan's fuel and BF shaming...

This thread is fun! 🙂

Edited September 1, 2023 by Sneezyone

[kbutton]

On 8/30/2023 at 3:32 PM, GailV said:

I'm on team "I don't want moving fabric swishing over nipples due to sensitivity". 

My early-pregnancy-alert was when feeling AIR on my nipples was painful, and showers were fraught with dread of a drop of water banging into super-sensitive skin.

OTOH, I'm also on team "why are y'all wearing shoes?",

This! Agony for the first trimester of my first pregnancy (and a size increase overnight necessitating new shirts before I gained an ounce, lol). Except that, for me, my sensitivity is clearly hormonal, not a matter of getting used to it. My feet get so hot and need air.

On 8/30/2023 at 4:34 PM, itsheresomewhere said:

Is there an so I don’t step on them option? Lol

😂 

On 8/30/2023 at 6:21 PM, ktgrok said:

With all the talk about things wriggling and jiggling and flopping around this clip keeps coming to mind...

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/088f01be-e985-45b7-ab33-d7d798596133

 

Or maybe, Do your ears hang low? Do they wobble to and fro…

On 8/30/2023 at 8:14 PM, City Mouse said:

 

I’m small chested. I’ve seen lots of lots of men with floppy chests that are much bigger than mine, and they feel no pressure to wear a similar garment.

Some men are extremely self conscious about it.  

12 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I always breastfed in public.  I was a bit discreet but did not use a cover.  Older women came up to me all the time to cheer me on, which I did not expect at all.  It was actually really nice.

I did too, but if I got a hard time from anyone, it was older women. All my pro-BFing comments were discreet and non-creepy quiet comments from older men. Older women said things indirectly to put me in my place. I was tempted to crochet a beige little beenie with a blush  colored point in the top for my baby to wear while being fed in public.

I was extremely pleased that not one person batted an eye at me when I breastfed all over my alma mater for my class reunion—conservative Christian college. 

That said, I do appreciate some segregated places for moms to CHOOSE to use. I remember when I had to resume allergy shots when I was still getting the hang of things. Baby was so floppy (hypermobile on top of normal newbornness), I was not exactly engorged but still at the b00ks bigger than baby’s head stage, and I had to wait quite a while after my shot. My mom was with me, and she never breastfed, so she didn’t know exactly what to do to help (but was supportive). My milk was leaking all over; it was a total slip and slide in the waiting room. It would’ve been a kindness for someone to offer me an exam room, lol! I couldn’t stop laughing, but had I been alone instead of with my mom, I know I would’ve been frustrated and crying.

[Pam in CT]

I'm interested now in the geography of where nursing mothers have felt hostility. I breastfed in restaurants and other public places in NJ, NYC and CT and never got negative feedback. Within this thread, I've heard similar from Maine and Hawaii?  Other experiences?

 

(I've never thought about this, and without having thought about it I think I would have EXPECTED that redder / more traditionally and vocally "pro-family" demographics would be more welcoming of breastfeeding? But maybe not?)

[kbutton]

I wish I could wear camis, but every shirt  I own twists on me to the point that I sometimes buy asymmetrical shirts on purpose so that it’s less obvious. Guess what that twisting does in a cami, lol? I can wear them only for warmth or maybe to cover a lower neckline than I’d like. The same thing happens when I sleep. I saw a meme about this once, but I doubt I could find it again.

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, Pam in CT said:

I've never thought about this, and without having thought about it I think I would have EXPECTED that redder / more traditionally and vocally "pro-family" demographics would be more welcoming of breastfeeding? But maybe not?)

Ohio is somewhat neutral, but again, older women would say things in hopes of making younger women follow their ideas of what was proper.

I’ve noticed that more conservative areas expect people to use covers but are pro-nursing (again, women!). As someone else said, it draws attention of its own; my nursling would rather dramatically rip covers off.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

I'm interested now in the geography of where nursing mothers have felt hostility. I breastfed in restaurants and other public places in NJ, NYC and CT and never got negative feedback. Within this thread, I've heard similar from Maine and Hawaii?  Other experiences?

 

(I've never thought about this, and without having thought about it I think I would have EXPECTED that redder / more traditionally and vocally "pro-family" demographics would be more welcoming of breastfeeding? But maybe not?)

DEFINITELY NOT. My best/pro BF experiences were on the left coast. I was still nursing youngest when we went to AR for a family funeral and our relatives (older) were notably uncomfy. The local family (with kids our age) were bottle feeding.

[maize]

10 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

I'm interested now in the geography of where nursing mothers have felt hostility. I breastfed in restaurants and other public places in NJ, NYC and CT and never got negative feedback. Within this thread, I've heard similar from Maine and Hawaii?  Other experiences?

 

(I've never thought about this, and without having thought about it I think I would have EXPECTED that redder / more traditionally and vocally "pro-family" demographics would be more welcoming of breastfeeding? But maybe not?)

I don't recall experiencing negative comments or treatment related to breastfeeding, with one exception-- when I sat down on the floor at preschool pickup to comfort my distressed child and one of the teachers thought I was going to breastfeed them. That was related to the age of the child though,  not covering up (I wasn't intending to breastfeed there,  but the teacher knew that my three year old wasn't fully weaned).

I've breastfed all over the place,  but the states I've lived in and have the most experience with are Texas, California and Utah. Never received negative comments anywhere.  I don't cover up but do prefer to pull up rather than pull down my top, so most of what is exposed is my waist.

What I did get judged for was having more than two kids in California.

Edited September 1, 2023 by maize

[Melissa Louise]

I've never had negative feedback for breastfeeding a baby, but the toddlers got some side eye 

[Clarita]

12 hours ago, ArteHaus said:

I once wore a see through shirt without a bra when I was 19. I thought I was a hippy and free and all that bs. I am sure a made a man connected to a woman turn his head that day. I regret that, sorely. It feels shameful now-

Another time a few years ago, I wore skinny jeans to a store. I was putting bags into my car and a man walking with his wife/gf, nearly broke his neck to look at me. My husband saw this and was cross with me, and I deserved it. I still cringe over that, and I really had to consider what I was doing/wearing.

Those men were going to oggle no matter what you were wearing. I learned that in high school. When a male student fell off his chair trying to watch me walk across the room in my oh so sexy (sarcasm) clay covered baggy shirt and pants that were worn over my regular T-shirt and boot cut jeans with full underwear ensemble. And when I was sexually assaulted while wearing properly fitting flood pants, flip flops and a hoodie sweater. (Did my ankles made him stray? I think not.)

[KidsHappen]

5 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

I'm interested now in the geography of where nursing mothers have felt hostility. I breastfed in restaurants and other public places in NJ, NYC and CT and never got negative feedback. Within this thread, I've heard similar from Maine and Hawaii?  Other experiences?

 

(I've never thought about this, and without having thought about it I think I would have EXPECTED that redder / more traditionally and vocally "pro-family" demographics would be more welcoming of breastfeeding? But maybe not?)

I have BF in many states and another country in public since 1983 and I have never received any dirty looks or unkind statements. Two of my dds have done the same and not had any problems either and we all BF until two or three. I can spot a BF at 50 yards and I have very rarely seen any problems. 

[Ginevra]

6 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

I'm interested now in the geography of where nursing mothers have felt hostility. I breastfed in restaurants and other public places in NJ, NYC and CT and never got negative feedback. Within this thread, I've heard similar from Maine and Hawaii?  Other experiences?

 

(I've never thought about this, and without having thought about it I think I would have EXPECTED that redder / more traditionally and vocally "pro-family" demographics would be more welcoming of breastfeeding? But maybe not?)

Granting that this was at least 18-26 years ago…

I infrequently encountered hostility when I NIP, though I was often covered up. (Blue state, with some red patches.) When I did encounter stink eye looks, it was in the red patches, for example, at a county fair where I nursed my baby (discretely) in the dining hall. 
 

I nursed my baby on an airplane and didn’t get stink eye - or maybe I did but I did not care; I was looking for a smooth flight and that seemed like something close to a guarantee.
 

In Florida at Disney, I had women supporting me to not nurse in the bathroom lounge but I was only in there because it was much too hot and sweaty out on the benches! 😄 They had my back, though and were like, “Did they *make* you come in here to nurse??” 

[Emba]

9 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

I'm interested now in the geography of where nursing mothers have felt hostility. I breastfed in restaurants and other public places in NJ, NYC and CT and never got negative feedback. Within this thread, I've heard similar from Maine and Hawaii?  Other experiences?

 

(I've never thought about this, and without having thought about it I think I would have EXPECTED that redder / more traditionally and vocally "pro-family" demographics would be more welcoming of breastfeeding? But maybe not?)

I breastfed in public in Texas and   neighboring parts of New Mexico, in a generally conservative area, and no one ever said anything, one way or the other.  I covered, so while nothing was showing, it was obvious what I was doing.  I would say most women breastfeed for at least a little while here.

 Now, it’s definitely not the level of comfort with breastfeeding that they have in Ecuador, where I saw a woman on a bus flip down the top of her tube top to breastfeed a toddler and no one batted an eye. No one ever covered there while breastfeeding. But it’s not a less oppressive culture in regards to patriarchy and sexual harassment on the street was considered normal and expected  in a way I’ve never experienced in the US.  

[ArteHaus]

13 hours ago, Ginevra said:

Ok. If you want to call yourself vile because you wore tight-fitting pants, nothing I can do about that. 

Yes, it *was* an extremely unpleasant side of myself that needed to be changed. My word choices, for this thread, are made with intent, and are not indiscriminate. 

You know, self-reflection, introspection, these are necessary to grow and mature, and to slough off the dead weight. We are all bound to accumulate spiritual tumors, best not to let them fatten. You have to be honest with yourself. I mean, it is dangerous to pet the ego. So, if I I do something deplorable, I call it what it is. However, most women under the influence of the Western system just.don’t.get.it.

What I am exposing and examining here perhaps goes deeper than simply not wearing a bra or skinny jeans. I am just doing some spiritual math. I have given this a lot of thought. Most women don’t want to look at it, it is easier to cower under “patriarchy, patriarchy”, than to acknowledge what is really going on, and take personal responsibility. 

So, no, I am not degrading myself. In fact, it is the feminist ideology that I (at times, subconsciously) took to heart in years bygone- that led me to degradation. It is apropos to use one’s own life experiences when giving opinion, agreed, yes? 

 

 

 

 

[ArteHaus]

9 hours ago, Clarita said:

Those men were going to oggle no matter what you were wearing. I learned that in high school. When a male student fell off his chair trying to watch me walk across the room in my oh so sexy (sarcasm) clay covered baggy shirt and pants that were worn over my regular T-shirt and boot cut jeans with full underwear ensemble. And when I was sexually assaulted while wearing properly fitting flood pants, flip flops and a hoodie sweater. (Did my ankles made him stray? I think not.)

Being sexually assaulted is beside the point. Men who do that are on another tip, and I am not speaking to that anyway.

I respectfully disagree that it makes no difference in what a woman wears-

I am sure your experience is ubiquitous as well. It doesn’t negate my point.

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by ArteHaus

[EKS]

Sports bra to squish them down and immobilize as much as possible.  

[Wheres Toto]

I mainly nursed in NJ, NY, CT, PA and I think MD.   Of course, this was a lot of years ago but I never received any dirty looks, comments or anything negative.   As I said before, I'm pretty sure NJ at least had a law even back then that businesses weren't allowed to ask people to stop breastfeeding or ask them to move to a different place.  

[rebcoola]

Nursed in Wi, Iowa and Washington mostly a few dirty looks but no actaul trouble like Ive said before I have huge knockers so its not really subtle

 

[Dmmetler]

I teach music, and, well, I bounce... I mostly wear sports bras because the support helps. 

 

[Terabith]

On 8/31/2023 at 6:14 AM, TexasProud said:

 

I hesitate to write because I know people will just respond, but guys...  when you grow up with someone who is constantly "Don't trust men, they are out to get you." "Don't you dare put your fate in the hands of a man." Everything at work was because a "man" was responsible. Umm.. maybe you are rude.

I do not want to be loud and in your face. So yes, it was annoying. Sometimes it is about personal responsibility.

Don't want to derail the thread, but I heard enough about the evil of men growing up.  I am sick of it.  Men can be nice. Men can be sweet.  

 

Of course men can be nice and sweet!  Patriarchy is a SYSTEM.  It’s a system that oppresses and confines men, as well as women, but certainly not to the same degree.  Criticizing the patriarchy is in no way criticizing individual men. 

[Terabith]

Before my book reduction, I was a J cup.  Honestly, I felt like I was so big that all the bookshelves did was hold the books against my stomach.  They didn’t really provide much support per se.  They were so big they came to my belly button, and I could drink my own milk from the tap. When I was nursing, I gave up wearing a bra, because it was easier to nurse discreetly.  I nursed in San Antonio and I remember lots of positive comments but not any negative ones.  When I moved to Virginia, I got some criticism from people about not wearing a bra, so even though I was nursing a toddler, I went back to wearing one in public. 
 

Post book reduction, I am still a DD (which irritates me.  I had asked to be closer to a C but the plastic surgeon said he had to go with the aesthetic, which…grr). I don’t really mind wearing a bra, though I’m incredibly picky about fabrics and such. I feel more comfortable wearing one in public, and I don’t take it off until I take my shower at night.  My one exception is after I swim. I find putting on a bra while damp to be arduous, so I skip that part of dressing after my swim/ shower.  Sometimes I’ll swing by the grocery store on the way home or something, and I don’t worry about it.  

[ArteHaus]

14 hours ago, maize said:

Nah, shaming or not shaming of nudity or various degrees of coveredness is just cultural.

There's value in many instances in living within the behavioral expectations of the culture one finds oneself in, but most of those expectations are ultimately arbitrary.

Arbitrary, lol. How?

Child sacrifice is just cultural, as well. So just ignore it. Honor killings are just cultural. 

Cultural practice must be examined, no?

Besides, my culture expects that I not wear a burqa. If I did, those “arbitrary expectations” disappear, and I may experience some adversity. Likewise, if I walk around nude, I would likely get arrested, right? 

So, your point is unclear. 

I find it interesting (but expected) that no one can really explain why nudity isn’t shameful. It is easy call a thing nonsense, but apparently, not so easy to give answer.

 

[Pawz4me]

Just now, ArteHaus said:

 

I find it interesting (but expected) that no one can really explain why nudity isn’t shameful. It is easy call a thing nonsense, but apparently, not so easy to give answer.

 

When people make a factual claim it's on them to prove it, not on others to disprove it.

But of course stating that nudity is shameful is an opinion, not a fact. Therefore it's really impossible to prove or disprove.

[SHP]

I missed something. We went from why we wear bras (again, for drag) to the reason people don't rude around naked is because nudity is shameful?!

Reasons I wear clothes:

~Protection from the sun.

~Protection from the cold.

~To reduce the amount of skin available to the hungry mosquitoes that wait outside my door.

~I have black vinyl car seats.

~I work with chemicals and it is easier to change clothes that have to run to the shower.

~So I can be comfortable in stores that keep the thermostat at near freezing.

~Because I have cool band t-shirts

~I have kittens who think climbing my leg is the correct thing to do when I do not pick them up.

~My hobby is hardscaping and landscaping. I use wood mulch which is nothing more than thousands of small splinter delivery systems and I do not want to have to pay for a doctor visit to have splinters removed from my rear. YMMV.

~I have children and bought cheap couches. The fabric is itchy and not something I want touching lots of bare skin.

~The rest of my chairs are very inexpensive plastic that, while practical, would leave a spot pattern on my skin and I would prefer not to have people staring at my spots.

~Pockets.

 

Covering reproductive dangly bits isn't even on the list.