New PEN report - In Defence of Literary Imagination

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

@Rosie_0801

Film or book? 

I haven't seen the film.

Ya know, I just got googling to see whether there are any decent sounding autism boy books around and would you know, up pops Goodreads with "The Dog in the Night-time" at the top of the autistic fiction list. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I haven't seen the film.

Ya know, I just got googling to see whether there are any decent sounding autism boy books around and would you know, up pops Goodreads with "The Dog in the Night-time" at the top of the autistic fiction list. 

Of course! 

I do understand the frustration. 

I might check out both. Film is a bonus when it comes to related texts. And the film may be more widely available than the book. 

[Rosie_0801]

Okay, I've read neither of these and don't want to, but they might be worth checking out for your situation?

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5168689-anything-but-typical
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26800718-the-someday-birds
 

There really isn't much out there, that I can see.

[Melissa Louise]

Musing more - my experience is that when you write, you don't 'choose' exactly what or who you write about.

It's going to sound a little woo, but my personal experience is of being more of a conduit? 

So the idea that one might internalize no go zones for the writing- self is an unhappy one.

I think what happens in publishing can bleed into that type of self censorship.

 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

Okay, I've read neither of these and don't want to, but they might be worth checking out for your situation?

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5168689-anything-but-typical
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26800718-the-someday-birds
 

There really isn't much out there, that I can see.

Cheers, Rosie. 

[regentrude]

13 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Musing more - my experience is that when you write, you don't 'choose' exactly what or who you write about.
It's going to sound a little woo, but my personal experience is of being more of a conduit? 
So the idea that one might internalize no go zones for the writing- self is an unhappy one.

I think that is definitely true for poetry; however, from my novelist friends I know that there is a great deal of research involved which is a very deliberate, rational undertaking that is very different from the conduit experience of the writing flow. The notion to include a character with certain characteristics may "come upon them"; however, the research about that character is a methodical, cerebral act.

[SanDiegoMom]

https://reason.com/2022/07/05/rise-of-the-sensitivity-reader/
 

This article shows the trend of the silencing of wrong identities, and includes the story of Alberto Gullaba.    He wrote a story based on his experience at UVA called University Thugs - about an ex offender trying to restart his life on a campus with simmering racial tensions. His agent loved the novel, said it was going to be bid on by multiple publishers bc it was so good. Then the night before this was to happen he had the author update his bio and found out he wasn’t black. He was Filipino.  First generation to college, working class background, but when the author found out he wasn’t black he freaked out. Started making him make changes in the book,  tried to have him add an Asian character, got a “sensitivity reader” who was black to read the novel for potential bias. He eventually just gave up and pulled the book to self publish. 
 

I see the YA world as being pretty heavy handed in the accepted narratives in the past 10 or 15 years.  I think that is where the current iteration started, and it’s moved into the adult fiction world. 

[Melissa Louise]

22 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I think that is definitely true for poetry; however, from my novelist friends I know that there is a great deal of research involved which is a very deliberate, rational undertaking that is very different from the conduit experience of the writing flow. The notion to include a character with certain characteristics may "come upon them"; however, the research about that character is a methodical, cerebral act.

It's weird, but having shifted into prose, those characters really did spring into life. In some ways, I don't want to mess with that. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I kinda think that empathy leads to fewer, not greater, stereotypes. And I'm not sure that artistic empathy is the same thing as everyday empathy, either. 

Can you explain more about your second point? I'm not sure I completely understand it.

I think my underlying issue with own voices as a dominant mode (which it isn't, yet, although YA is getting there) rather than as a segment of the list meeting particular reading needs, be they universal or specific, is that it seems to involve a rejection of the principles of humanism, and the idea that we are more alike than we are different. 

But I would have to flesh that out more in my own mind.  

 

 

I think some books do focus on our commonalities, and those do well written by anyone. But other books specifically focus on the differences, and those books are better when written by someone with actual lived experience of those differences, if that makes sense?

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

https://reason.com/2022/07/05/rise-of-the-sensitivity-reader/
 

This article shows the trend of the silencing of wrong identities, and includes the story of Alberto Gullaba.    He wrote a story based on his experience at UVA called University Thugs - about an ex offender trying to restart his life on a campus with simmering racial tensions. His agent loved the novel, said it was going to be bid on by multiple publishers bc it was so good. Then the night before this was to happen he had the author update his bio and found out he wasn’t black. He was Filipino.  First generation to college, working class background, but when the author found out he wasn’t black he freaked out. Started making him make changes in the book,  tried to have him add an Asian character, got a “sensitivity reader” who was black to read the novel for potential bias. He eventually just gave up and pulled the book to self publish. 
 

I see the YA world as being pretty heavy handed in the accepted narratives in the past 10 or 15 years.  I think that is where the current iteration started, and it’s moved into the adult fiction world. 

I've got to agree with the agent here - if you write a book about racial tensions from the perspective of a Black person and you are not actually Black I think having a sensitivity reader only makes sense. Because yeah, if the point of the book is about those racial issues, and you have not lived as that race...you might get stuff wrong and you might inadvertently even be pretty offensive. It's easy to accidentally use terms or words that carry one meaning in one context, but that have another in a different culture/context, and if you are trying to represent that you should get it right as much as possible. I would, as an author, absolutely want several Black readers to critique my work if I had written that book. 

[Rosie_0801]

20 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I've got to agree with the agent here - if you write a book about racial tensions from the perspective of a Black person and you are not actually Black I think having a sensitivity reader only makes sense. Because yeah, if the point of the book is about those racial issues, and you have not lived as that race...you might get stuff wrong and you might inadvertently even be pretty offensive. It's easy to accidentally use terms or words that carry one meaning in one context, but that have another in a different culture/context, and if you are trying to represent that you should get it right as much as possible. I would, as an author, absolutely want several Black readers to critique my work if I had written that book. 

You think another member of a minority who experiences racism is equally unqualified to write a book like this as a white person?

[ktgrok]

20 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

You think another member of a minority who experiences racism is equally unqualified to write a book like this as a white person?

I think that Black culture and Fillipino culture and history in this country are different - which would effect how that racism is experienced and internalized. And therefore having someone from that culture read the book and make sure you are not screwing it up out of ignorance of some aspects of the situation makes sense.  Heck, it is common and not controversial for a UK writer who writes American characters set in the US to have people from the US read the book to catch potential problems. So this agent's recommendation just seems normal to me. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by ktgrok

[Danae]

I think sensitivity reader is the wrong name for a very valuable service.  They should be called “Do I have spinach in my teeth or toilet paper stuck to my shoe” readers.  Because the point is to catch the things that the author can’t see,  but would be glaringly obvious to someone with another perspective.  

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Danae said:

I think sensitivity reader is the wrong name for a very valuable service.  They should be called “Do I have spinach in my teeth or toilet paper stuck to my shoe” readers.  Because the point is to catch the things that the author can’t see,  but would be glaringly obvious to someone with another perspective.  

This! 

[Rosie_0801]

Out of curiosity, if a computer game, made by Americans, with Americans probably being the largest consumers, programs non-American characters to use American dialect words, is that right or wrong? 

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Out of curiosity, if a computer game, made by Americans, with Americans probably being the largest consumers, programs non-American characters to use American dialect words, is that right or wrong? 

I'm not a gamer, so I don't know what the typical reaction would be. I'd personally find it annoying, if I were to notice it. (as in, if I were non american and realized the slang/dialect was wrong). It certainly doesn't seem ideal if the goal is to be realistic/authentic. If that isn't the goal, I guess it is just a matter of how the market handles it. 

I don't buys games, so wouldn't effect me.I do buy books...a lot of books...and I do try to avoid that kind of thing in my books when possible.

[Rosie_0801]

6 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I don't buys games, so wouldn't effect me.I do buy books...a lot of books...and I do try to avoid that kind of thing in my books when possible.

I don't imagine that is very easy, seeing how the powers that be have decided that Americans need their own editions of books.

I would rather like to read a book about the rationale there. I knew what a faucet and a diaper was from a young age, even though we never use those words. Why does a book called 'Future Girl' need to be renamed 'The Words in My Hands' for the American market? 

How does a demand for racial authenticity live side by side with non-American, English speaking writers having to be translated into the standard American dialect? Do American readers in general not know that happens?

[Danae]

3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Out of curiosity, if a computer game, made by Americans, with Americans probably being the largest consumers, programs non-American characters to use American dialect words, is that right or wrong? 

I don’t think right and wrong are the right categories for this.  It’s a choice some game producers might make intentionally, like the American edition of British books changing “jumper” to “sweater” to avoid confusion.  Others would rather go for authenticity.  
 

I’d lean closer to “wrong” if the writers made up a foreignish dialect for the non-American characters.  

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I don't imagine that is very easy, seeing how the powers that be have decided that Americans need their own editions of books.

I would rather like to read a book about the rationale there. I knew what a faucet and a diaper was from a young age, even though we never use those words. Why does a book called 'Future Girl' need to be renamed 'The Words in My Hands' for the American market? 

How does a demand for racial authenticity live side by side with non-American, English speaking writers having to be translated into the standard American dialect? Do American readers in general not know that happens?

Probably they don't know. I have books that have been retitled to be sold in other countries, both English speaking and other wise. So it definitely goes both/all ways. 

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I don't imagine that is very easy, seeing how the powers that be have decided that Americans need their own editions of books.

I would rather like to read a book about the rationale there. I knew what a faucet and a diaper was from a young age, even though we never use those words. Why does a book called 'Future Girl' need to be renamed 'The Words in My Hands' for the American market? 

How does a demand for racial authenticity live side by side with non-American, English speaking writers having to be translated into the standard American dialect? Do American readers in general not know that happens?

I mean, they renamed Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone into Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone for the American audience. How dumb is that.

[Rosie_0801]

Just now, ktgrok said:

Probably they don't know. I have books that have been retitled to be sold in other countries, both English speaking and other wise. So it definitely goes both/all ways. 

Why were they re-titled? Did they edit the rest of the text? 

Did you think the changes were a good thing or kind of stupid because surely literate people can cope with lorries v trucks, etc?

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

How does a demand for racial authenticity live side by side with non-American, English speaking writers having to be translated into the standard American dialect? Do American readers in general not know that happens?

I would think that a lot of Americans know, but I wouldn’t say most.   It was a topic of discussion around Harry Potter so Potter heads at least know about it.  They left in enough British stuff to make it feel British to us, like calling kissing or making out “snogging” but I have no idea what all was changed.  I’ve wanted to read the British editions but never have.  
 

 

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Did you think the changes were a good thing or kind of stupid because surely literate people can cope with lorries v trucks, etc?

I vote that’s it’s stupid.   I would love to read books with jumper and lorrie. It’s still English.   It’s not like I can’t google or press the word on my kindle if I’m just super lost.  

Edited August 9, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Rosie_0801]

For the record, Australians don't say ranch, they say station, maybe run if it's an old enough book. 

I don't know. Maybe @ktgrok might need to write a tourist in the outback story, where, modern romance tells me, are a lot of hot guys. 😂

(My English grandmother referred to making out as "snoggin' on" which sounds so unappealing.)

Okay, I'm done with frivolity for now.

[bookbard]

Interesting discussion. I wanted to say, firstly, that publishing houses are massive companies who want to make lots of money, and their rules are not based on what is ideologically best practice, but on what will make them more money and cost them less money. So there's no point looking for a deep philosophical reason for some title changes - it is going to be a financial decision.

Secondly, I think that novelists are doing something wrong when they decide to use a character with X, and then sell it. Autism is a good example - there are SO MANY bad books with characters either labelled with autism or who are supposed to have autism but they haven't labelled it. Another example is a book I read with the main character who had synaesthesia. I cannot say enough how much the author had no clue and did a disservice to the world by creating these bizarre myths about synaesthesia (that ended up on Wikipedia as truth, with that book as a source!) Write what you like for your own pleasure, no one is stopping it. But if you're going to make money publishing it, you have a responsbility. 

There is a book I really like that uses a culture that the author does not belong to. I wish she had at least written an acknowledgement that her fantasy culture was quite clearly based on a real culture (apparently she mentioned in an interview that her parents had worked with this culture). To me, it is wrong to make money off a culture, using their stories and their thousands of years of wisdom, without acknowledging them at all. 

You have the right to write whatever you want, of course you did. Explore your creativity. Do you have the right to disseminate lies widely, or make money off other people's stories? I don't think so. 

[bookbard]

Oh, I wanted to add one more thing. I think a lot of people know The Rosie Project. Widely criticised by people with autism and those in the community for sending the message 'all you need to overcome your social issues is to try hard'. The second book was even worse 'if you have a job, you don't have autism'. However, the author listened to the criticism, sat down with a bunch of different people and so the third book is really interesting and has a lot of richness in it. Doing the research rather than relying on your own inspiration really does add to the literary quality of a book. 

[Rosie_0801]

I think my least favourite autism books are those where the annoying autistic sibling is the only autistic person in the family. 
Hahhahaha, like that happens.

[Danae]

15 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

For the record, Australians don't say ranch, they say station, maybe run if it's an old enough book. 

I know this from reading The Thorn Birds in the 80s. Wasn’t changed for the American edition.

[Melissa Louise]

54 minutes ago, bookbard said:

Interesting discussion. I wanted to say, firstly, that publishing houses are massive companies who want to make lots of money, and their rules are not based on what is ideologically best practice, but on what will make them more money and cost them less money. So there's no point looking for a deep philosophical reason for some title changes - it is going to be a financial decision.

Secondly, I think that novelists are doing something wrong when they decide to use a character with X, and then sell it. Autism is a good example - there are SO MANY bad books with characters either labelled with autism or who are supposed to have autism but they haven't labelled it. Another example is a book I read with the main character who had synaesthesia. I cannot say enough how much the author had no clue and did a disservice to the world by creating these bizarre myths about synaesthesia (that ended up on Wikipedia as truth, with that book as a source!) Write what you like for your own pleasure, no one is stopping it. But if you're going to make money publishing it, you have a responsbility. 

There is a book I really like that uses a culture that the author does not belong to. I wish she had at least written an acknowledgement that her fantasy culture was quite clearly based on a real culture (apparently she mentioned in an interview that her parents had worked with this culture). To me, it is wrong to make money off a culture, using their stories and their thousands of years of wisdom, without acknowledging them at all. 

You have the right to write whatever you want, of course you did. Explore your creativity. Do you have the right to disseminate lies widely, or make money off other people's stories? I don't think so. 

Four of the big publishing houses have reaffirmed the principles in the OP, which is what prompted PEN to release its own statement. 

So while they are big businesses, it's not as if they are also utterly devoid of principle. 

I've worked mostly with independent  booksellers, but I think it's fair to say books are an industry that is dissimilar in some important ways to a company producing widgets.

 I'm unsure how fiction can be a lie. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

It also occurs to me to wonder how far the concept of not being allowed to tell another's story for profit extends.

Does it extend into film, for example?

Should a director also be from the same lane as the subject Cinematographer? Actor? If not, why not?

Also - should an author have to out  themselves as authentic in order to avoid critique of a published novel?

Does the author with experience of madness need to reveal it to have a portrayal of madness accepted, for example? 

 

 

[Farrar]

I support using sensitivity (um, "spinach in your teeth") readers because that's common sense. Just like Britpicking or other cross cultural language and experience things. Having pushback against that is just silly to me. And sensitivity readers have existed in some form forever. They were just less formal, like good editors saying to their contacts, hey does this ring true? Video games should do it too and as they become more story based, I'm guessing they might. The industry is really changing.

I am hopeful that some of the things we're seeing in publishing right now are a pendulum swing correction for a lot of bias and racism. There have been some cases where books were pulled that I thought were really unjustified. The example given up thread about the Filipino author writing in a Black voice doesn't work well for me, especially if he refused a sensitivity reader. I'm not saying that the book should have been shut down, pulled, etc. by the publisher, but if your work holds up and you want it to be commercially published (not to mention if you don't want to inadvertently offend anyone, which is a good thing to want) then you should use a sensitivity reader.

A better example that comes to mind immediately is the fantasy YA (I think it was YA -- it was definitely fantasy) that took place in an Asian-esque landscape, by an Asian American author that explored slavery in the fantasy world of the book. It was an intentional author-created metaphor for trafficking of women, which is a big problem in some parts of Asia. But before it was published, it got huge criticism for an Asian author writing about slavery, even in a fantasy context. The book was pulled by the author before it went to press. Obviously I didn't read the book, but that just felt wrong. And not a great trend, especially for encouraging creativity and expression. I wanted to understand the critique, but... especially a few years down the line... smh.

But hyperfocusing on the handful of cases like that feels wrong to me when the correction was to decades and decades of the mainstream publishing houses each putting out hundreds of white-centered children's/YA books by White authors every year, a smattering of books about non-White characters mostly by White authors, and a book or two by non-White authors centering non-White characters, usually by one of just a few authors. It was only marginally better when you look at adult books, and a lot of the non-White authors beyond a few touted luminaries were being published in undermarketed niche imprints for genre fiction. And that's screwed up in the extreme.

Obviously, that has changed. And Oprah is part of it. But Own Voices was a big part too. So if we're talking about every book that the Own Voices movement has led publishers to decide to quash or pull from publication, we have to note that they are ALSO influencing the fact that dozens and dozens are being published that wouldn't have ever made it out of a slush pile 20 years ago. So while I do see some issues around this, I have to acknowledge the positive role in promoting creative expression that this movement has played. It's been huge.

[Melissa Louise]

It's not a settled thing amongst minority writers, though. I know quite a few who do not want to be pigeon holed as own voices, do not want to trade on own voices, and want their books to speak for themselves.

They get a lot of encouragement to trade on their minority status in publicity - I respect when they find that really icky. 

[ktgrok]

18 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Why were they re-titled? Did they edit the rest of the text? 

Did you think the changes were a good thing or kind of stupid because surely literate people can cope with lorries v trucks, etc?

I honestly didn't read the foreign editions, so I have no idea. And of course the non english ones I can't read. But titles are picked based on what they think will sell, and I guess that varies with the market. (although I just checked, and it looks like the engllish ones stayed the same in title, the ones in various languages are very different titles, not just translated)

No one told me anything about changing them, but I also don't generally pick my titles anyway. My editor does (I can suggest some, but I think only once did they use the one I suggested)

Edited August 9, 2023 by ktgrok

[ktgrok]

18 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I vote that’s it’s stupid.   I would love to read books with jumper and lorrie. It’s still English.   It’s not like I can’t google or press the word on my kindle if I’m just super lost.  

I read a ton of books based in the UK, and am very used to reading jumper and lorry. But those books are set in the UK, it makes sense. It doesn't make sense, and is jarring, when I read a book set in Central Florida that uses those terms. It knocks you out of suspension of disbelief for a moment. (the author almost gets away with it by having several British characters in the book, but even the character who is a US native ends up using British terms..oops)

18 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

For the record, Australians don't say ranch, they say station, maybe run if it's an old enough book. 

I don't know. Maybe @ktgrok might need to write a tourist in the outback story, where, modern romance tells me, are a lot of hot guys. 😂

(My English grandmother referred to making out as "snoggin' on" which sounds so unappealing.)

Okay, I'm done with frivolity for now.

I may someday write a ranch series, but it will likely be based in Florida. All my books have been based in Florida because I just don't have the insider knowledge of other places. Maybe someday I will have the time and budget to travel and immerse myself in a place long enough to be able to write about a different setting...someday.

18 hours ago, bookbard said:

Interesting discussion. I wanted to say, firstly, that publishing houses are massive companies who want to make lots of money, and their rules are not based on what is ideologically best practice, but on what will make them more money and cost them less money. So there's no point looking for a deep philosophical reason for some title changes - it is going to be a financial decision.

Secondly, I think that novelists are doing something wrong when they decide to use a character with X, and then sell it. Autism is a good example - there are SO MANY bad books with characters either labelled with autism or who are supposed to have autism but they haven't labelled it. Another example is a book I read with the main character who had synaesthesia. I cannot say enough how much the author had no clue and did a disservice to the world by creating these bizarre myths about synaesthesia (that ended up on Wikipedia as truth, with that book as a source!) Write what you like for your own pleasure, no one is stopping it. But if you're going to make money publishing it, you have a responsbility. 

There is a book I really like that uses a culture that the author does not belong to. I wish she had at least written an acknowledgement that her fantasy culture was quite clearly based on a real culture (apparently she mentioned in an interview that her parents had worked with this culture). To me, it is wrong to make money off a culture, using their stories and their thousands of years of wisdom, without acknowledging them at all. 

You have the right to write whatever you want, of course you did. Explore your creativity. Do you have the right to disseminate lies widely, or make money off other people's stories? I don't think so. 

So, full disclosure, I have written a book with an autistic character. That said, the book was from the perspective of a single mom with a kid on the spectrum, and I have been a single mom with a kid on the spectrum. So hopefully it was authentic, although of course if you meet one kid with autism you know one kid with autism and all that. 

And I agree fully that it is a good thing for an author to include in a note a bit about the subject. So for instance, I read a book where a character had some memory issues after trauma, and the author included a note that this is only one possible response, and had links to websites with more information about memory loss, PTSD, etc etc while clarifying it was fiction and not to consider it fully accurate. 

[Danae]

@Rosie_0801 Have you read Helen Hoang’s novels?  The first one is The Kiss Quotient. They are modern romance with autistic main characters.  (Not appropriate for ML’s school question, obviously.)

[Rosie_0801]

Just now, Danae said:

@Rosie_0801 Have you read Helen Hoang’s novels?  The first one is The Kiss Quotient. They are modern romance with autistic main characters.  (Not appropriate for ML’s school question, obviously.)

Yup 🙂

Definitely not appropriate for school. 😂