Question about diversity/inclusion language

[lauraw4321]

Just now, regentrude said:

Sorry I was unclear. I meant I cannot imagine having a sense of gender in the first place. 

Yes - this is where I fall as well. I don’t really “get” gender. Sex? Yes, I understand. I always thought/assumed “gender” was just a made up thing. Paul’s statement that in Christ there is no “male” or “female” resonated very strongly with me. Studying feminist theory in college reaffirmed this from a different perspective. 
 

My oldest (15) is very interested/passionate about trans rights. She does not identify as trans but believes trans folks to be the “most disadvantaged” minority in the US. Having open and honest conversations about this subject with her have proven difficult. 

[KSera]

 

10 hours ago, PronghornD said:

My point was a response to the notion that each transitioning person may present with a range of issues and may have confused cause and effect and be blaming it all on being trans. And I was putting that in opposition to someone who is trans and does not have complicating issues.

Well, if your child is one of the minority of trans young people who do not have complicating issues, they have a higher liklihood that they will have a better outcome, so that's good. If they are one of the majority who experiences depression and/or anxiety and/or is neurodivergent, it's much more uncertain. Most studies on medical transition have excluded those individuals, despite them being the majority of trans identifying people, so we don't know the long term outcomes for them. So far, the evidence we do have is mostly classified as "low quality," which is disappointing. I find it pretty disconcerting for medical organizations to be issuing strongly worded position statements based on absent or low quality data.

All this said, I have spoken out throughout this thread and in others in defense of calling people what they want to be called and not adding to people's mental health burdens by purposely ignoring their preferred pronouns. People shouldn't have a fit about pronoun mistakes, but I appreciate people showing kindness and respect by calling people the way they would like to be called. As much misgiving as I have about the current state of gender medicine in the US, I feel just as strongly about transgender people having protectedrights and dignity and I just plain wish people would be nice.

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by KSera

[maize]

Regarding brain research, a comparison could be made to the state of research on religious experience and the brain. There are a fair number of studies out there showing differences in brain activity and even structure between people who report religious experiences and those who don't.  There's science indicating that something of note is happening in the brains of religious people and differentiating them from non-religious people. 

This doesn't mean that we push to re-organize society around the professed experiences of religious people. We do, in many countries, make allowances for people to believe as they will and, within reason, practice as they will--but we don't demand that everyone else in society treat their specific beliefs as scientific truth that must be reinforced at all times just because *something of note may be happening in their brains*.

I grant that people can absolutely *believe inside their heads* that they actually experience a thing they label gender that is at odds with their biological sex. That doesn't mean that their subjective experience needs to accepted by everyone in the population as outweighing the objectively observable, overwhelmingly scientifically supported physical reality of biological sex.

I'm a religious person. I believe that I commune directly with God and that I have experienced direct guidance in my life from deity. 

I don't at all expect every person in my community to bend over backwards to acknowledge and affirm and reinforce and demand that others reinforce my specific, subjective experiences and beliefs.

[Melissa Louise]

5 hours ago, KSera said:

I think this is well said. This might be a dumb example, but think of places where a woman showing her ankles is scandalous. We may “know” it’s no big deal to show your ankles, but for a woman in that culture, someone lifting her dress a couple inches to expose her ankles in public may indeed feel like an assault to her. It’s irrelevant that it would be no big deal to us. 

I find this almost unbearable. In real life, people are actually assaulted.

Someone takes their body and enacts violence on your body.with it. 

I take the point that misgendering might 'feel like assault' but nonetheless, it's not an assualt. 

 

 

[LMD]

5 hours ago, KSera said:

I think this is funny, because if you are making the wrong judgment, how would you know you were wrong? I agree it’s pretty clear for people who aren’t transgender. I’d be very surprised if you have never interacted with any post transition people who you never guessed were transgender. It might be different if you lived in a small town, but having lived in New York and I think California? That seems very unlikely.

I just... don't believe it. And pretending it's true seems awfully cruel. I've met the most passingly passing trans people and there are still tells in real life. I may not immediately consciously guess trans but my brain is hiccuping, because there is something that doesn't fit. Hormones don't change gait or skull/hand size, for a start. There are thousands of ways our sexed bodies are differentiated that our brains are exceptionally good at recognising. We are sexually reproducing mammals, recognising the sex of members of our species is what we do.

I also think the push to medicalise younger and younger in order to 'pass' better is unconscionable.

[Melissa Louise]

5 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, and I've had at least one significant interaction with this community IRL. I think it's a very useful one to think about.

One of my older girl's good homeschooling friends from first grade is trans. She transitioned as a toddler and by the time I met her, had been going by her female name for a while. 

This example illustrates a lot of the complications. On the one hand, no one pushed this kiddo to become trans. Her mom describes her asking for a dress and then never taking it off, so eventually they bought lots of dresses. And she chose how she wanted to be referred to. She was little enough that it was definitely not peer pressure. 

On the other hand . . . as this kiddo's grown up, it has become very clear that she's on the spectrum. And her parents divorced a few years ago, which is when I learned that the dad was abusive to the mom and to the kids. So . . . this is all very complicated. I personally wouldn't be surprised if the abusive dad is partially what made her reject the male identity. 

I don't have any lessons here. I want this kiddo to be as happy as possible in her life. I don't know if that means transitioning surgically or coming back to a male identity (she's now very much a tomboy.) But it's an interesting story. 

I also know some stories of people transitioning as teens or adults, which have a very different flavor from my perspective. 

The evidence we do have about people like this child when the intervention is watchful waiting, is that they will likely desist post puberty, and will likely be gay or otherwise gender conforming.

That's how childhood onset dysphoria goes.

Of course, they may be one of a minority who persist with a cross sex identity into adulthood. 

Unfortunately, the social and any other interventions will have increased the chance of persistence. 

People think they are doing the right, kind thing, but they're not. 

Let the boy enjoy 'girl' things. He might grow up to be an effeminate man or a gay man, or both. That's a fine outcome. He doesn't need to be put on what is a fairly brutal and costly path away from that. 

 

[PronghornD]

9 hours ago, KSera said:

It's difficult for me to to explain how that hits to me. On the surface, I think it's kind of a sense of "sucks to regret that everyone affirmed someone else's kid as transgender and now they live with lifelong physical pain, infertiilty, and depression, but at least my kid's not being misgendered."

We do need a system that takes care of everyone, but clearly we don't have that at all right now. Currently, detransitioners and regretters (not everyone who regrets detransitions--it's rough to live life as a woman with male pattern baldness, a beard and a low voice) are pretty much told to be quiet (mostly in much more foul terms than that) and that their experiences don't matter because they're only a small minority and they shouldn't spoil it for everyone else. The sad thing is that a portion of those arguing that will down the road join that same group that is ostracized form their former community for not having been "true trans". The average time to detransition is 5-10 years (I think 8 is the average across many studies that I've seen quoted).

Well, if your child is one of the minority of trans young people who do not have complicating issues, they have a higher liklihood that they will have a better outcome, so that's good. If they are one of the majority who experiences depression and/or anxiety and/or is neurodivergent, it's much more uncertain. Most studies on medical transition have excluded those individuals, despite them being the majority of trans identifying people, so we don't know the long term outcomes for them. So far, the evidence we do have is mostly classified as "low quality," which is disappointing. I find it pretty disconcerting for medical organizations to be issuing strongly worded position statements based on absent or low quality data.

All this said, I have spoken out throughout this thread and in others in defense of calling people what they want to be called and not adding to people's mental health burdens by purposely ignoring their preferred pronouns. People shouldn't have a fit about pronoun mistakes, but I appreciate people showing kindness and respect by calling people the way they would like to be called. As much misgiving as I have about the current state of gender medicine in the US, I feel just as strongly about transgender people having protectedrights and dignity and I just plain wish people would be nice.

 

Thank you for explaining your feelings on this. I am sorry I minimized the pain of those who detransition. What I really want, I think, is that each person is very much treated as an individual. In the same way, just because some people transition and go on to have a wonderful life should not mean that another kid should be automatically treated as one of them when they may be a more complicated case.

I also think that my kid, even if they end up not choosing a medical transition (that's up in the air right now), has risks beyond being misgendered. As this all blows up and people choose to think about it in a black-and-white way, my child also will increasingly experience safety issues beyond the safety issues we all experience in this crazy world. They may also experience discrimination in housing, employment, etc.

My child is actually very complicated and does have additional issues separate from gender. I think maybe what I said about that was misleading. The key for me is that my child realizes that their problems are not all about gender. So, they are quite realistic in understanding that medical interventions will not solve all their problems. A multi-modal approach will be needed to hopefully give them a depression-free life someday.

 

[maize]

9 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

people choose to think about it in a black-and-white way, .

 

Black and white thinking is always a problem. Humans, individually and collectively, are complicated.

Thoughtfulness and nuance are needed.

Polarized politicalization of any issue undermines that.

[Not_a_Number]

20 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

The evidence we do have about people like this child when the intervention is watchful waiting, is that they will likely desist post puberty, and will likely be gay or otherwise gender conforming.

That's how childhood onset dysphoria goes.

Of course, they may be one of a minority who persist with a cross sex identity into adulthood. 

Unfortunately, the social and any other interventions will have increased the chance of persistence. 

People think they are doing the right, kind thing, but they're not. 

Let the boy enjoy 'girl' things. He might grow up to be an effeminate man or a gay man, or both. That's a fine outcome. He doesn't need to be put on what is a fairly brutal and costly path away from that. 

 

And what happens when the child transitions socially?

[LMD]

56 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

And what happens when the child transitions socially?

The 'identity' is psychologically entrenched and socially reified making the child much less likely to feel able to drop it.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

And what happens when the child transitions socially?

Then they are much more likely to progress on to medicalizing than they otherwise would be. Almost all do according to the research, although I see the potential for the rate to possibly drop lower when currently younger trans kids reach that age, since I still think it’s seeming like there may be more of them who do not medicalize than there used to be. Time will tell.

Edited August 5, 2023 by KSera
deleted details of why avoiding unnecessary medicalization is desirable

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

And what happens when the child transitions socially?

Increases the  chance they will persist in a cross sex identity.

[Not_a_Number]

Ah 😕. That’s sad for this kiddo, then. I’m sure her mom meant well, too.

[livetoread]

I think the lack of good research works both ways here. We don't really know what happens to kids who transition socially and if they are more likely to choose medicalization. (FWIW, in my circles, few do, but they aren't the ones being captured in research because they aren't in the system. ) We don't know if kids now would be more likely to become gay/lesbian if not supported for being trans. We don't know much of anything. It's not like the earlier research showing a carefully selected group of minors with gender dysphoria is the gold standard here. We are in a new age and rejecting all the research that supports affirmation and support while accepting the early limited research doesn't seem right to me.

The Washington Post did a survey of trans people and while there were, of course, flaws, it was striking to me how so few chose medicalization. The majority of those identifying as trans were nonbinary which might be different for those thinking trans and nonbinary are separate (I know I did.)For this survey, anyway, it captured those nonbinary people who consider themselves trans.

It seems to me that if kids were just told, "Look, most trans people (including nonbinary people) don't choose medicalization, but some do, and if you want that in the future, it's there," it would go a long way towards buying time. I think a lot of kids think there is one path to being trans and that is medicalization. It's what you do when you are trans in their minds, and often in the minds of parents as well. https://www.kff.org/other/poll-finding/kff-the-washington-post-trans-survey/

About three-quarters of trans Americans say they have changed their type of clothing (77 percent) or hairstyle or grooming habits (76 percent) to better fit their gender identity. Most also have used a different name than the one on their birth certificate (57 percent). Just 31 percent have used hormone treatments, HRT or puberty-blocking hormones, and 16 percent have undergone gender-affirming surgery or another surgical treatment to change their physical appearance.

 

 

[livetoread]

FWIW, I have no real feelings either way if someone wants to socially transition versus being gay/lesbian. I don't see one outcome as preferable to the other. I do think keeping medicalization treatment for those who really need it (and I think there are those who do) and certainly buying time for both minors and adults with that option is preferable because of the risks. Of course, it's not easy to know who really needs it, but right now I think we are offering it too quickly to those who might be fine in the long run without it (though I am against laws forbidding it.)

[Not_a_Number]

20 minutes ago, livetoread said:

FWIW, I have no real feelings either way if someone wants to socially transition versus being gay/lesbian. I don't see one outcome as preferable to the other. I do think keeping medicalization treatment for those who really need it (and I think there are those who do) and certainly buying time for both minors and adults with that option is preferable because of the risks. Of course, it's not easy to know who really needs it, but right now I think we are offering it too quickly to those who might be fine in the long run without it (though I am against laws forbidding it.)

It does seem likely that socially transitioning makes medical intervention more likely, in which case I definitely prefer the alternative.

With the kiddo I've been talking about, I can see that they may have very well been more comfortable with a male identity as they got older. Their interests don't align well with their female identity, and that complicates matters. (My older girl's interests also don't align well with what's traditionally expected of girls, which is why they hit it off initially, but the feeling around it is different.) 

[Lecka]

I read a book recently called The Family Outing by Jessi Hempel.  I liked it, I read it for a book group.

 

One part of the book is that the author has a transgender brother.  
 

Well, I don’t remember the exact time period, but the transgender brother, in the early 1990s I think, did not fit the “you always wanted to be a boy from early childhood” framework.  That’s not how it happened with him.  
 

Well, at one point he goes to a gender clinic in Boston, to get testosterone, and was denied by the clinic after being honest about not playing with trucks as a child and wanting to be a boy since early childhood.  
 

Then he goes to another clinic and this time when the doctor asks the questions, he says what he thinks they want to hear in order to receive his testosterone prescription.  And basically from then on (or for a while at least) he was cagey/guarded with medical professionals because he thought he had to say things a certain way with them.

 

In the discussion group there was an older woman who said she had uncomfortable moment in the past with not disclosing she was a lesbian and going along with doctors asking about her husband and things, because she didn’t think it would be a good idea to be honest.  She said she would feel awkward discussing birth control (when she didn’t need it).  
 

It really challenged my thinking because I had assumed some of the research must be accurate, but if really people weren’t necessarily honest with their healthcare providers, because of stigma or whatever, it makes me wonder how much we can count on that research.  
 

 

 

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, Lecka said:

It really challenged my thinking because I had assumed some of the research must be accurate, but if really people weren’t necessarily honest with their healthcare providers, because of stigma or whatever, it makes me wonder how much we can count on that research.  

That’s interesting as it’s the same thought I had when reading the Washington Post study above (which I hadn’t seen and was interesting particularly for percentage of non-binary (I thought that would be a more likely percentage for a younger cohort.) But I thought of the same things you did when reading about the age at which people reported feeling transgender. I’ve seen first hand that be misreported to get treatment (including easily observable things like when someone changed their name or started living full time as the opposite gender). It does call into question self report research data on some things, unfortunately. But there are a lot of other issues with the research in general. 

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, livetoread said:

I think the lack of good research works both ways here. We don't really know what happens to kids who transition socially and if they are more likely to choose medicalization. (FWIW, in my circles, few do, but they aren't the ones being captured in research because they aren't in the system. ) We don't know if kids now would be more likely to become gay/lesbian if not supported for being trans. We don't know much of anything. It's not like the earlier research showing a carefully selected group of minors with gender dysphoria is the gold standard here. We are in a new age and rejecting all the research that supports affirmation and support while accepting the early limited research doesn't seem right to me.

The Washington Post did a survey of trans people and while there were, of course, flaws, it was striking to me how so few chose medicalization. The majority of those identifying as trans were nonbinary which might be different for those thinking trans and nonbinary are separate (I know I did.)For this survey, anyway, it captured those nonbinary people who consider themselves trans.

It seems to me that if kids were just told, "Look, most trans people (including nonbinary people) don't choose medicalization, but some do, and if you want that in the future, it's there," it would go a long way towards buying time. I think a lot of kids think there is one path to being trans and that is medicalization. It's what you do when you are trans in their minds, and often in the minds of parents as well. https://www.kff.org/other/poll-finding/kff-the-washington-post-trans-survey/

About three-quarters of trans Americans say they have changed their type of clothing (77 percent) or hairstyle or grooming habits (76 percent) to better fit their gender identity. Most also have used a different name than the one on their birth certificate (57 percent). Just 31 percent have used hormone treatments, HRT or puberty-blocking hormones, and 16 percent have undergone gender-affirming surgery or another surgical treatment to change their physical appearance.

 

 

There is research for the childhood-onset cohort. It's not brilliant research, but the picture for those kids is clearer, and does not support social transition and blockers. 

(The head of yet another gender clinic at a children's hospital here has backtracked on blockers due to the startling lack of evidence for benefit as compared to harms as of yesterday). 

There's no evidence for the adolescent-onset cohort because until now, it's been verboten to treat them as distinct from the childhood-onset group. The 'born trans' argument has not served this group well. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, livetoread said:

FWIW, I have no real feelings either way if someone wants to socially transition versus being gay/lesbian. I don't see one outcome as preferable to the other. I do think keeping medicalization treatment for those who really need it (and I think there are those who do) and certainly buying time for both minors and adults with that option is preferable because of the risks. Of course, it's not easy to know who really needs it, but right now I think we are offering it too quickly to those who might be fine in the long run without it (though I am against laws forbidding it.)

What does 'socially transition' or a 'trans identity' even mean, absent a dysphoria severe enough to require medical and/or surgical transition? 

I used to think it meant being gender non-conforming, or androgynous, but that's not even it.

It seems most like a form of social identity play, and it's just such an odd phenomenon to appear, and an even odder one to organise around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ginevra]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

What does 'socially transition' or a 'trans identity' even mean, absent a dysphoria severe enough to require medical and/or surgical transition? 

I used to think it meant being gender non-conforming, or androgynous, but that's not even it.

It seems most like a form of social identity play, and it's just such an odd phenomenon to appear, and an even odder one to organise around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is what I think is happening. 
 

About 8 years ago, a friend who was defending transitioning for a young person we both knew said, “…considering how much rejection a kid goes through in ‘coming out’ as trans, I can’t imagine this is merely a choice…it must be in-born.” At the time, I sort of agreed with that argument, but as time has passed (and as we see a very obvious social contagion element at play), I see it very differently. Adolescents have very often loved making themselves “different” and crossing boundaries. When I was a kid, it was shaving half your head and dying the other half purple; getting a tattoo; piercing your ears many times or in the cartilage. (Piercing anything else was still very counter-cultural in the 80s where I lived.) Many teens change their names or spell it some different way, like my friend Donna, who went by “MaDonna” for a few years, and my friend “Denice,” who changed the spelling to “Danyce” and kept it that way, even having it legally changed in adulthood. 
 

I do not think letting kids pretend to be the opposite sex (or “nothing” - NB) is benign, even if it does not lead to a greater probability of medicalizing, though I do believe that too. I think it is a significant risk to go off to college, say, posing as a female but still having a p*nis. The probability of getting into a sexual situation where your partner is surprised by what is down below is high, especially in certain schools or areas of the country. You could get r*ped; you could be assaulted or even killed for “tricking” someone into an unwelcomed sexual scenario. Even if you don’t get assaulted, I think it is morally exceedingly wrong to let such a situation play out. With that said, I have no idea how people alert others to expect the unexpected, unless, of course, that IS the point of saying you are NB or by having an androgynous “look”. In the past, I thought that was a lot of the purpose of having a gay affectation, whether that was conscious or not; if you seem gay from the outset, you’re cluing in heteros, while also signaling availability to other gay people. 

[Drama Llama]

19 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

What does 'socially transition' or a 'trans identity' even mean, absent a dysphoria severe enough to require medical and/or surgical transition? 

I feel as though, for the trans kid in my life, being told that their issue isn't "real" if it doesn't require a medical transition isn't going to make them stop wanting to use a male name, or play on the boy's team, or be referred to as "him".  It's going to make him more insistent on medical transition as a way to prove that his identity is real.

I would be curious to see the research that supports that idea that letting a minor socially transition makes it more likely they will choose medical transition as an adult.  

 

[EKS]

1 minute ago, BandH said:

I feel as though, for the trans kid in my life, being told that their issue isn't "real" if it doesn't require a medical transition isn't going to make them stop wanting to use a male name, or play on the boy's team, or be referred to as "him".

My take on this is that the message shouldn't be that there isn't a real issue, but that reality is the person is their biological sex.  The real issue is that the person is having a problem with reality.  In all other areas, there would be no question what the right course of action should be--help the person accept reality.  But with this one thing, the "wisdom" is for the rest of the world to play along with the person's delusion.

[KSera]

47 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

“…considering how much rejection a kid goes through in ‘coming out’ as trans, I can’t imagine this is merely a choice…it must be in-born.”

This probably varies widely by area. My kid had a community for the first time after identifying as trans. It really is a nice community for neurodivergent young people especially. So while yes, there’s all the difficulties and hard things about being trans, but in the midst of that, someone may finally have a community to support them. (Not entirely different than being punk or goth or whatever where someone might be ostracized by most, but they have their people, and that’s what counts. At least no one was making laws against being punk though.)

 

47 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

The probability of getting into a sexual situation where your partner is surprised by what is down below is high

I think that’s a very fringe thing that happens. The vast majority of people don’t want to be in that situation themselves either. It would be very embarrassing. The trans people I know are almost all paired with other people who are gay and/or trans. 
 

45 minutes ago, BandH said:

I would be curious to see the research that supports that idea that letting a minor socially transition makes it more likely they will choose medical transition as an adult.  

 

A 5-year study by the American Academy of Pediatrics of more than 300 transgender youth recently found that after initial social transition, which can include changing your pronouns, name, and how you might dress or present yourself, 94% continued to identify as transgender while only 2.5% identified as their sex assigned at birth.

“Once people came out as gender diverse they really ended up persisting in those identities over time. So fewer than 2.5% of children who made that initial social transition ended up identifying as their sex assigned at birth at the conclusion of the five year study. That means that over 97, almost 98% of the children in that study persisted on in their gender diverse identities over time,” said Dr. Melissa Cyperski, Clinical Psychologist with Vanderbilt University Medical Center.

 

This data (and other similar studies) is often used as evidence in favor of social transition, but that’s ignoring the fact that kids who do not socially transition most often eventually identify with their biological sex. And given the significant mental health differences between transgender and cisgender people, that’s something to give weight to. 

[kokotg]

41 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

A 5-year study by the American Academy of Pediatrics of more than 300 transgender youth recently found that after initial social transition, which can include changing your pronouns, name, and how you might dress or present yourself, 94% continued to identify as transgender while only 2.5% identified as their sex assigned at birth.

“Once people came out as gender diverse they really ended up persisting in those identities over time. So fewer than 2.5% of children who made that initial social transition ended up identifying as their sex assigned at birth at the conclusion of the five year study. That means that over 97, almost 98% of the children in that study persisted on in their gender diverse identities over time,” said Dr. Melissa Cyperski, Clinical Psychologist with Vanderbilt University Medical Center.

 

This data (and other similar studies) is often used as evidence in favor of social transition, but that’s ignoring the fact that kids who do not socially transition most often eventually identify with their biological sex. And given the significant mental health differences between transgender and cisgender people, that’s something to give weight to. 

That study isn't comparing kids who socially transition with kids who don't, though? You're (? can't tell if the last paragraph is a quote or your commentary) stating as fact that most kids who don't socially transition eventually identify as their biological sex, but that's not in the study (or at least not your summary of it--there's no link to it).

[KSera]

10 minutes ago, kokotg said:

That study isn't comparing kids who socially transition with kids who don't, though? You're (? can't tell if the last paragraph is a quote or your commentary) stating as fact that most kids who don't socially transition eventually identify as their biological sex, but that's not in the study (or at least not your summary of it--there's no link to it).

Right, that's the point I was making (that last part was my commentary; mobile makes it hard to insert long quotes). BandH asked for "research that supports that idea that letting a minor socially transition makes it more likely they will choose medical transition as an adult." This is research that shows that almost socially transitioned kids persist in their trans identity, and earlier someone had posted about rates when kids are not socially transitioned, in which case the majority return to identifying with their biological sex.

[Terabith]

I know the population of kids who are transitioning now is different than the people who transitioned in the late 90’s/ early 2000’s, but when my kid came out as non binary, it seemed logical that I turn to the people I knew well and had known through their transitions. The “elder trans” folks for advice on what to do. And several of them had clear cut desperation to transition from childhood on, were straight up literally tortured by peers for not fitting into the gender binary, and who experienced depression and anxiety that went away when they transitioned. One has ptsd from the trauma she experienced as a child.  
 

I mean, what else could I have done?  The elder trans folks counseled therapy and support and social transition and holding off on medical stuff till after 18, and that’s what current recommendations from professionals suggested, so that’s what we did.  Maybe it was the wrong choice, but it seemed like the safest way for our kid to make it to adulthood, period, and especially to do so with a relationship with us intact.  

Edited August 5, 2023 by Terabith

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I know the population of kids who are transitioning now is different than the people who transitioned in the late 90’s/ early 2000’s, but when my kid came out as non binary, it seemed logical that I turn to the people I knew well and had known through their transitions. The “elder trans” folks for advice on what to do. And several of them had clear cut desperation to transition from childhood on, were straight up literally tortured by peers for not fitting into the gender binary, and who experienced depression and anxiety that went away when they transitioned. One has ptsd from the trauma she experienced as a child.  
 

I mean, what else could I have done?  The elder trans folks counseled therapy and support and social transition and holding off on medical stuff till after 18, and that’s what current recommendations from professionals suggested, so that’s what we did.  Maybe it was the wrong choice, but it seemed like the safest way for our kid to make it to adulthood, period, and especially to do so with a relationship with us intact.  

It's so hard. 

For me, it literally made zero sense. Ds, for example, whose GD arrived out of the blue, had displayed zero GD prior.

I simply did not believe that during his entire train-playing, doll-rejecting, Lego-building, no dress-up life to that point, he had been hiding a cross sex reality from me. 

I believed it was more likely he was struggling with life events (a seriously unwell sibling, a father in ICU) and his distress was being signalled in a socially salient way. 

So I gambled on my gut, got him in to see a psychotherapist, and told him two things; first, that I could see he was in pain and really wanted to help him through this,  and second, being gender non conforming was fine, and he could experiment with clothing etc as he wished.

But at no.point did I agree he was a girl. Because he's not. 

I did reduce use of gendered pronouns for a while, and used pet names instead of given name too. 

It was hard. I had a break down of my own (straw/camel) during his dysphoric phase. 

He/we came through it. What really helped was having his ADHD diagnosed and treated, as well as the ongoing support for his traumatic family happenings. 

He freely identifies as his birth sex now, pronouns he/him. 

Before that, his sister was given the diagnosis tacked on to others.

Again, it was hard to believe that the most stereotypically female (not feminine) person I knew had been secretly hiding her inner boy.

It turned out she was autistic and preferred  gender non-conforming clothing - I took a very neutral approach to it all at the time - reduced pronouns/given name for a time, supported GNC clothing/hair, sort of ignored it otherwise - she had bigger issues going on requiring my attention. 

While I am glad I trusted my gut, and got both dysphoric kids to adulthood without foreclosing on any options available to them (which was my parenting goal), I don't blame or think less of parents who did otherwise.

We were blessed with a few factors - really good psychotherapy, no complicating peer groups, and my own capacity to stand my ground about what reality is and isn't. Pressure around suicide or being cut off had the opposite effect on me. I did not believe either would happen (in the presence of therapeutic support) and they didn't. 

Without those factors, things could have been different. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PronghornD]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

Right, that's the point I was making (that last part was my commentary; mobile makes it hard to insert long quotes). BandH asked for "research that supports that idea that letting a minor socially transition makes it more likely they will choose medical transition as an adult." This is research that shows that almost socially transitioned kids persist in their trans identity, and earlier someone had posted about rates when kids are not socially transitioned, in which case the majority return to identifying with their biological sex.

It's too bad we can't have a control group in a study like this. The kids who choose to transition socially are most likely those with the worst gender dysphoria, and therefore it isn't that surprising that they maintain their transgender identity as adults. Those who do not transition likely have less severe dysphoria and/or more obstacles to transition such as a non-affirming family or community.

Another thing missing from the study (or from what you gave us of the study) is any statistics on how many of those in the study did medical transition. Was there anything in the study on that? To me as a parent, that is the more serious concern.

[PronghornD]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I know the population of kids who are transitioning now is different than the people who transitioned in the late 90’s/ early 2000’s, but when my kid came out as non binary, it seemed logical that I turn to the people I knew well and had known through their transitions. The “elder trans” folks for advice on what to do. And several of them had clear cut desperation to transition from childhood on, were straight up literally tortured by peers for not fitting into the gender binary, and who experienced depression and anxiety that went away when they transitioned. One has ptsd from the trauma she experienced as a child.  
 

I mean, what else could I have done?  The elder trans folks counseled therapy and support and social transition and holding off on medical stuff till after 18, and that’s what current recommendations from professionals suggested, so that’s what we did.  Maybe it was the wrong choice, but it seemed like the safest way for our kid to make it to adulthood, period, and especially to do so with a relationship with us intact.  

Keeping the relationship intact and holding off on medical transition until after eighteen are pretty big accomplishments. I have a close relative who did not allow their child to make a social transition, and it doesn't seem it went well at all. The teen was miserable -- you could just feel the misery radiating off of them. And now the teen is a medically transitioned adult with memories of a miserable childhood and some anger against the non-affirming parents. Of course, the parents did what they thought was best too.

There is probably no completely safe approach for any of us. You looked at the particulars of your situation and made your best call. And quite possibly it really was the best call for your particular child.

[Melissa Louise]

I forgot - I did ask a trans person at the time of dd's diagnosis - they told me incoherent stuff about hormone washes, and assured me testosterone would make 5 foot post pubertal growth DD get taller, and at that point I decided I would trust my own self, thank you, because a lot of what they were saying seemed at odd with how the human body works. 

[PronghornD]

12 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

We were blessed with a few factors - really good psychotherapy, no complicating peer groups, and my own capacity to stand my ground about what reality is and isn't. Pressure around suicide or being cut off had the opposite effect on me. I did not believe either would happen (in the presence of therapeutic support) and they didn't. 

Without those factors, things could have been different. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you have any tips on finding really good psychotherapy? So far, we seem to have a talent for finding the opposite.

[Ginevra]

Melissa, I really appreciate you sharing that story. You’re a good mum. 

[Melissa Louise]

12 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

Do you have any tips on finding really good psychotherapy? So far, we seem to have a talent for finding the opposite.

I think a psychiatrist who also practices psychotherapy is a decent bet, but no guarantee. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Ginevra said:

Melissa, I really appreciate you sharing that story. You’re a good mum. 

I appreciate that, Ginevra. 

I did a hard thing twice, and I did it well, and I balanced compassion with boundaries. 

(Trying to practice speaking nicely to myself, took the opportunity 🙂)

 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

Maybe it was the wrong choice, but it seemed like the safest way for our kid to make it to adulthood, period, and especially to do so with a relationship with us intact.  

I think in the current environment, that’s kind of where we are with older teens. The messages they get that they will kill themselves if not affirmed are so strong that doing otherwise is a risk for many of them and same for keeping the relationship intact. Melissa’s route is a safer one for the kids if they’re not surrounded by those messages, particularly in the context of their peer group. The kind of presentation your kid and mine had is pretty different from the trans adult who grew up with gender dysphoria from early childhood. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

I forgot - I did ask a trans person at the time of dd's diagnosis - they told me incoherent stuff about hormone washes, and assured me testosterone would make 5 foot post pubertal growth DD get taller, and at that point I decided I would trust my own self, thank you, because a lot of what they were saying seemed at odd with how the human body works. 

What’s a hormone wash?

[Melissa Louise]

I do wonder if my own experiences of suicidality (and not going on to complete) helped me be less scared than I could have been. 

I guess I just saw it as part of the human condition, something you learn to manage, with relapse and remission over the life cycle. 

I was constitutionally unable to see gender dysphoria as an exemption to the ultimately optimistic perspective that there are alternatives to suicide, even when suicidal. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

What’s a hormone wash?

The idea that the foetus gets subsequent washes of hormones in utero, and that some washes makes the genitals one sex, and other washes make the brain another sex. 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

The idea that the foetus gets subsequent washes of hormones in utero, and that some washes makes the genitals one sex, and other washes make the brain another sex.

Ah. Thanks.

[KidsHappen]

I have so many mixed feelings on so many levels on the whole matter, almost to the point of cognitive dissonance. We have to consider the older cohort of almost exclusively males suffering from gender dysphoria from a very young age and the current cohort of predominantly female adolescents who are suddenly suffering from GD. We need to consider it from a sociological standpoint in which there is almost certainly social contagion taking place and we need to consider it from the perspective of dealing with individuals on a one to one basis. 

First of all, no one is just randomly "assigned a sex at birth". Everyone just looks between the baby's legs and observes the baby's sex. For almost all of human history and in almost all cases that observation is correct. If the as the child begins to grow up they begin to insist that they are something that they are in fact not, be it the wrong sex, and animal, an alien or Jesus Christ, then we can safely assume that there is either something physically or mentally wrong with them.

So in this case, the first line of action should be a medical check-up. They should check the child's chromosomes, their hormones, their genitals and any internal sex organs, check for tumors, and any evidence of hormonal problems during the mother's pregnancy. If the child is perfectly healthy they should then be sent to counseling to help them accept and process their delusion which is what it is when someone believes that they are something that they scientifically are not. This is coming from a bipolar person that has suffered from mild hallucinations and delusions.  I know how difficult it can be to come to terms with something that you know for a fact to be true only to later find out that it was not. I am not making light of the difficulty of this process. But there is no other case in which a human is suffering some kind of delusion and the rest of society simply plays along.

Once we have updated medical research and have decided that it is medically ethical to do so, if an adult then receives all relevant medical information and provides informed consent well then I supposed that they can transition socially, hormonally even surgically if they wish. I still believe that they need therapy as they go through this process. I also believe that they should be counseled that while they persist in their delusion they should not expect the rest of society to play along especially to the detriment of the much larger cohort of females. 

This brings it down to the level of the personal. If a man comes into a female bathroom and he is at least trying to pass as a female then as long as he minds his own business, goes into the stall and privately conducts his business and then washes his hands and leaves that is fine by me. Even if the person doesn't quite pass or is androgynous or has a beard but is wearing make-up, jewelry and a dress, I don't care what is in their pants. But when as man comes into a private woman's space be it a locker room, spa, or women's ward at prison and they are butt assed naked sporting a full beard and a penis then no that is not going to fly. I am going to speak up and say something because that penis is a potential danger to almost everyone else there.  

We do need to address things like this at a societal level. We need to give trans people equal rights but not special rights that override the rights of natal females and put us at a disadvantage. I believe this includes thing like not letting trans women compete with natal women in sports. They also need to understand that they are not natal females. They can't really feel like a female because they have never been a female. They have not been through puberty, periods, female sex and orgasms, pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding, and menopause. They generally have not experienced just getting comfortable with their body only for it to change, over and over again. They have not suffered from sexism and concern for their safety as a female. They are not the same.  

However, they do deserve to be treated with human dignity and respect. They deserve inclusion in society. They deserve empathy for their lived human experience. They deserve to be addressed by the names and pronouns that they prefer. They deserve protection from violence the same as any other person. They deserve a place to go to the bathroom. I also believe that we owe them the research and medical care that best serves them even if it is not what they think they want to begin with. 

But they also have some responsibilities. Regardless of who they are attracted to they need to share the information that they are trans before things get too far down the road. My hubby was in the Navy and he has told me that almost every port he ever visited any where in the world he heard stories of sailors going home with what they thought were women only to find out they had an extra part once things became heated. 

And now I would like to share some personal experience. Two of my dds suffered from body dysphoria that if they were going through now they would probably think that they were trans. The reality of the matter was that they simply weren't ready to grow up at the time. They became very uncomfortable when their breast began to develop. They wore sports bras, covered by camisoles with built in bras and then baggy shirts. One of them didn't want to use feminine hygiene products. They didn't ever want to be naked which caused some hygiene issues because they didn't want to bath or shower. They did shave their vulva and armpits because they wanted to still look like a child. They exercised too much and ate too little to try and prevent the changing of their bodies. One developed an eating disorder. They would not have been served by the suggestions that maybe they were really boys though. They both eventually made peace with their changing bodies and grew up to be perfectly comfortable with their grown female bodies. 

I have complete empathy with parents of children with GD and know that they are only trying to so the best for their children that they know how. I am thrilled for the people that have been down this road and things turned out well for them no matter what they decided to do. And I ache for the parents that are torn and don't know what to do. I feel for the children going through this and the way they are treated by some people. And I truly believe that the only way through this at both a societal level and a personal level is civil discourse and continuing research and medical/mentally health advancements.

[PronghornD]

I think referring to the self-perceptions of all trans people as a "delusion" (or some synonym thereof) is a little too strong. Maybe it is a delusion for some or even most, but there is really no way to say definitively that there is no physiological basis for what any of these people experience. Perhaps you could say there is no known physiological basis or no well-established physiological basis. Some trans people have discovered that they are intersex, but not in an obvious, easy-to-detect way. That does make me think that there could be somewhat of a spectrum. And I also think of these people who transitioned years and years ago, way before any possible social contagion, and have no regrets. It seems presumptuous to declare that there is no physiological basis for what they have experienced.

It seems to me that there is something going on with trans people and that we should really be seeking to understand rather than just assuming mental illness across the board in all these individuals.

 

 

 

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

And I also think of these people who transitioned years and years ago, way before any possible social contagion, and have no regrets.

I think this is part of why that population needs to be studied separately from those with an entirely different presentation. Someone who expressed cross sex identity persistently from childhood during a time when that wasn’t a thing anyone talked about is likely to have different root causes (and possibly outcome—we don’t know) than someone who never expressed gender dysphoria until puberty (or much later).

[EKS]

40 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

It seems to me that there is something going on with trans people and that we should really be seeking to understand rather than just assuming mental illness across the board in all these individuals.

I actually don't think that most people with gender dysphoria are delusional, even though I did use that word upthread.  I think that they know full well what their biological sex is.  What's delusional is the idea that a person can somehow change their sex by fiat and that the entire world is supposed to go along with it.

[PronghornD]

9 minutes ago, EKS said:

I actually don't think that most people with gender dysphoria are delusional, even though I did use that word upthread.  I think that they know full well what their biological sex is.  What's delusional is the idea that a person can somehow change their sex by fiat and that the entire world is supposed to go along with it.

I don't think you understand trans people, at least not the ones I know. They know their sex, and they know their gender, and they wish the two matched. Sometimes they modify their bodies to achieve the match. If they thought they could change their sex by fiat, then they wouldn't have dysphoria!

[SanDiegoMom]

6 hours ago, PronghornD said:

Do you have any tips on finding really good psychotherapy? So far, we seem to have a talent for finding the opposite.

https://www.genderexploratory.com
 

This is a group of exploratory as opposed to affirming therapists.  They try to maintain an international list I think.  Sasha Ayad and Stella O’Malley do a whole lot - Gender: A Wider Lens Podcast, Genspect for parents, and a newer group called Beyond Trans, that try to provide support to those after transition that might still be struggling. 
 

Their podcast is amazing and on it they have interviewed many of the researchers who have put out some of the groundwork studies. Even the  Dutch protocol which paved the way for puberty blockers - they interviewed Steensma and De Vries. 
 

The latest episode interviews an affirming clinician who actually wrote the guidelines for assessment at her gender clinic, and over time realized that the medical field was not doing due diligence and were actually harming children with the affirmation only policy.  She left the field in 2015 and now is speaking out against medical transition of minors. 
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/gender-a-wider-lens-podcast/id1542655295?i=1000623416985

[KidsHappen]

3 hours ago, PronghornD said:

I think referring to the self-perceptions of all trans people as a "delusion" (or some synonym thereof) is a little too strong. Maybe it is a delusion for some or even most, but there is really no way to say definitively that there is no physiological basis for what any of these people experience. Perhaps you could say there is no known physiological basis or no well-established physiological basis. Some trans people have discovered that they are intersex, but not in an obvious, easy-to-detect way. That does make me think that there could be somewhat of a spectrum. And I also think of these people who transitioned years and years ago, way before any possible social contagion, and have no regrets. It seems presumptuous to declare that there is no physiological basis for what they have experienced.

It seems to me that there is something going on with trans people and that we should really be seeking to understand rather than just assuming mental illness across the board in all these individuals.

 

 

 

I am all for seeking to understand. That is why I suggest a complete medical exam checking for all the currently known reasons that could cause problems as well as ongoing medical research to help determine unknown causes. As a person who lives with mental illness I guess I don't see as any worse than a physical illness that could be causing a problem. I know that with the right treatment, therapy and support people with mental illnesses can also live complete and meaningful lives. And as I also stated, if GD persists and an adult is not able to bring their mind in line with their body then they should be able to bring their body in line with their mind. In which case I would assume they would present as the opposite sex and no one would have any reason or business asking which bathroom they should use. 

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, PronghornD said:

I think referring to the self-perceptions of all trans people as a "delusion" (or some synonym thereof) is a little too strong. Maybe it is a delusion for some or even most, but there is really no way to say definitively that there is no physiological basis for what any of these people experience. Perhaps you could say there is no known physiological basis or no well-established physiological basis. Some trans people have discovered that they are intersex, but not in an obvious, easy-to-detect way. That does make me think that there could be somewhat of a spectrum. And I also think of these people who transitioned years and years ago, way before any possible social contagion, and have no regrets. It seems presumptuous to declare that there is no physiological basis for what they have experienced.

It seems to me that there is something going on with trans people and that we should really be seeking to understand rather than just assuming mental illness across the board in all these individuals.

 

 

 

I wouldn't use the term delusion.

I do think there is a minority of people whose dysphoria persists into adulthood in such a way that they make what used to be called a meaningful transition, into living as if they were the other sex. 

I have a LOT of objections to the idea that there is a womanly or a manly way to live - it's sexist - and so I don't think it's good for society to normalize the idea that one can do so.

At the same time, a transition is a solution for a small % of adults. 

I just wish we could all stay more grounded in reality, and not race ahead of the (weak, low-quality) evidence for the transition of minors.

And I wish that acceptance wasn't predicated on how well a person adopts a set of metaphysical claims around the experience of gender dysphoria. I will never believe that my son is my daughter, or my daughter my son because humans don't change sex.  That knowledge has nothing to do with how I vote, or with how I treat trans people in my life. 

To bring the thread around to its beginnings, I think it is relatively easy for people to accept that some men and women have dysphoria and transition as a treatment for that dysphoria. People may find it relatively simple to refer in most circumstances to that person in their chosen manner. 

But when there is substantial pressure to speak and believe as if a cross-sex identity is more materially grounded than someone's actual sex - I think you get a lot of pushback.

For me, it really is like maize's analogy re religion. 
At work, it's like someone coming in, announcing their new religion, and then expecting us not only to be tolerant of the new religion but to adopt it ourselves. 

I prefer maximum societal tolerance for gender non-conformity. Just don't ask me to believe, or speak as if I believe, in things that violate both my conscience (blockers) and my understanding of reality (the immutable nature of sex). 

A long way of saying, despite understanding that dysphoria, much like other mental states of psychological incongruence, is painful, I won't be putting my pronouns in my email siggy any time soon. I don't think it's helpful for me to do so, and I don't think it's helpful long term for society to be developing this fixation with gendered identities, neither the conservative vision nor the queer vision. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EKS]

10 hours ago, PronghornD said:

I don't think you understand trans people, at least not the ones I know. They know their sex, and they know their gender, and they wish the two matched.

I understand trans people very well.  Believe me. 

It is the activists and allies who are delusional.  

Edited August 6, 2023 by EKS

[Ginevra]

On 8/5/2023 at 9:19 PM, PronghornD said:

I think referring to the self-perceptions of all trans people as a "delusion" (or some synonym thereof) is a little too strong. Maybe it is a delusion for some or even most, but there is really no way to say definitively that there is no physiological basis for what any of these people experience. Perhaps you could say there is no known physiological basis or no well-established physiological basis. Some trans people have discovered that they are intersex, but not in an obvious, easy-to-detect way. That does make me think that there could be somewhat of a spectrum. And I also think of these people who transitioned years and years ago, way before any possible social contagion, and have no regrets. It seems presumptuous to declare that there is no physiological basis for what they have experienced.

It seems to me that there is something going on with trans people and that we should really be seeking to understand rather than just assuming mental illness across the board in all these individuals.

 

 

 

The bolded is one of the faulty narratives going in LGBTQIA circles, and has been for several years now. There once was only two biological factors that would lead to an intersex diagnosis - ambiguous genitalia at birth and/or anomalies of chromosomes. But this has been changing for a while. Now, lots of young people think they are intersex because of feelings about things. 
 

In some ways, the narrative seems designed to push this conclusion. At a diversity conference I attended, the speaker said there were three “areas” of attraction that we experience - s€xual attraction (what sex organs you want to be involved with), romantic attraction (not necessarily party to the first), and “emotional attraction,” (not necessarily party to the first two), which is the silliest of all. IMHO, the point of all this hair-splitting is to make a case that everybody is “a little bit something”. Like when someone who has only ever played out a hetero  s€xual reality affirming that, actually, they are about 60% “bi-passing”. So because they - I don’t know - think their best (girl) friend looks really great dressed up for the club, or they have ever fantasized about playing with another female body, they think that means they *are* some category of not hetero. Besides, hetero is so boringly ordinary. 
 

I think our actions bear out what we are, which then reinforces our identity of what we are.