Question about diversity/inclusion language

[Danae]

7 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I am truly mind blown ppl cannot generally tell males from females.

Go and ride a bus. Look at who gets on and who gets off. Can you truly not tell that some people are female and others are male?

You really don't know until someone gives you their pronouns?

Was this always the case? Did you grow up not knowing? 

 

Nobody said anything about “generally.”  Generally, yes.  Not always.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

But one does not address people in the third person.

Well, true. I shouldn't have said "address" but "refer to." I assure you it's very frequent that one ends up using someone's pronouns in their presence. It's all the time in a family with multiple children in the room at one time. Or when you're talking to a couple, or anyone of an infinite number of situations. I know this because my kid has only a couple people they aren't "out" to and on the rare occasions all three of us are talking, I have to be super language aware and it's tricky and awkward to avoid pronouns in those situations.

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

That is an interesting point, especially since you acknowledge the oppressiveness of gender. So if people want to renounce that, why is it playing into it? Couldn't it be rather understood as an act of rebellion? 

I'd say renouncing gender entirely is exactly what the gender critical are doing. They are saying, "there isn't this thing called gender." People have sexed bodies (which occasionally have sex differences, such as being intersexed), and that's it. There's no separate thing called "gender" which either does or doesn't agree with one's sex. Declaring oneself to be nonbinary is still saying gender is a real thing which is usually binary, but the nb person is claiming an identity outside that binary (or somewhere in the middle, depending how they conceive themself).

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

But sometimes the person is being referred to while present.
I deal with that regularly in moderating class discussions, during joint advising sessions, conversations in a group. 

Yes, this. In social groups, in families, in classrooms, etc, etc.

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Is it really going to kill you, destroy your well-being, if your tutor or professor says 'she' about a woman instead of 'they'? No. It doesn't matter.

Well, it shouldn't. But the current reality of the way things are is that it does. Because kids and young people have been repeatedly told that using the wrong pronouns causes people to kill themself, the result is that it really can have a very serious effect on some people's well being. It sucks and makes me angry, because this is primarily people who I know mean well and think they are protecting trans kids by saying these things, but they are in fact putting trans' lives more at risk. As long as kids thing being misgendered is a violent assault, it matters how they are addressed. It's up to the adults to change that belief system and trivialization of suicide, which in turn will help kids be more resilient.

 

39 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I do think it’s getting harder with this slice of the young population, given that some have had puberty blockers, cross-gender hormones and/or one or more surgeries to remove sex organs and/or breasts. But for, say, the 30-and-up population, it is very rarely that I simply cannot tell if this is a man or woman. Even on the phone, I am almost always correct in my assumption of gender, age group and race or Nationality. People have many, many clues in their voices, word choices, accent and tonality that gives all of this information in a very short time. 

I agree it's not necessarily clear, given people can be in all different places along a path of transition. On the phone you are more likely to make a mistake in assumption of gender. My ds will be identified as female 100% of time on the phone. OTOH, a post-testosterone voice change de-transitioned female is most likely to continue to be identified as male on the phone forever (unless she is able to get some very good voice therapy). In a world where gender and transition isn't a thing, I agree that the vast majority of people can have their sex correctly identified by voice post puberty.

16 minutes ago, EKS said:

This is why I think that what people are doing to kids by allowing them to socially transition is unconscionable.  I know for a fact that my life would have taken a different course had this happened to me.  A course that would have very likely involved sexual dysfunction, sterility, and mutilation.

I'm with you with kids. The less we teach kids that gender is a Very Important Thing that warrants all kinds of very serious interventions so that they stay in line with gender stereotypes, the better. I realize from this thread that in some parts of the country this seems much more difficult than others--I don't live somewhere that boys would be insulted for playing with dolls or girls for having short hair. That is foreign to me. But for adults that have already transitioned, I see no kindness at all in not respecting that and treating them accordingly.

13 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

And this is why I do not wish to play along with children's trans identities. For me, to do so would be deeply unethical. 

I think this is very complicated by what I was saying above about the current social narrative around this. If a child has been taught to believe being misgendered is abusive, they will feel abused. It doesn't matter if that's not what you mean or intend and it's something they really should be able to roll with, if people are told something is abuse, they will experience it as such. I don't know how we reign that back in at this point, in an environment where one side is full of hateful disgusting things to say about transgender kids and adults and the other refuses to acknowledge the dearth of scientific basis for current practice, thinks gender is an immutable trait, and that there are no downsides to medicalization of one's gender identity. (Interestingly, it is acknowledged openly that gender identity is something that may change and shift throughout one's life--in open and affirming environments, it's not uncommon to have a bathroom policy which states that it may change daily how one identifies, and thus which bathroom one chooses to use-- which makes it more curious to me that it would make any sense to make permanent medical changes on the basis of it.)

14 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

So they changed and told them that they could call themselves whatever they wanted to each other, that the adults would call them their birth names and gender.  They found that the social contagion of gender (which it WAS absolutely a contagion) then led to a “culture of desistance”.  

That's pretty interesting, but it makes sense.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Seriously, the planet is on fire, society is failing to meet the social contract in a million and one ways, and this is what we use our limited and precious time on?

This is where I am too. 

As my kids are getting ready to apply to university(ies), I really don't want them to go to a place that is a fantasy world bubble that picks and chooses issues to consider, with little or no reflection of what's actually important, or even possible, IRL.

[KSera]

33 minutes ago, SKL said:

I address everyone as "you."

Well, yes. Again, as I said above, I should have said "refer to" rather than "address."

17 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I am truly mind blown ppl cannot generally tell males from females.

Go and ride a bus. Look at who gets on and who gets off. Can you truly not tell that some people are female and others are male?

You really don't know until someone gives you their pronouns?

Was this always the case? Did you grow up not knowing? 

 

I don't think this was always the case, no. I think it was rare when I was growing up. I think it's still rare if someone isn't transgender. There are a lot of transgender folks where I am, though! If someone hasn't medicalized then it's still likely to be clear what their biological sex is, but it might be ambiguous what pronouns they use.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

I think cultural context might be at play here.   People are 100% thinking about what is in the underpants of even elementary school children in the US

Maybe where you live.  The US is a big place.

And in the context of shared bathrooms and post-pubescent non-coed sports teams, yes, for good reasons IMO.

My kids have to have an annual sports physical to play high school sports.  On the physical, you are either male (XY) or female (XX).  Nobody's checking genitals or DNA at school.

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I am truly mind blown ppl cannot generally tell males from females.

Go and ride a bus. Look at who gets on and who gets off. Can you truly not tell that some people are female and others are male?

You really don't know until someone gives you their pronouns?

Was this always the case? Did you grow up not knowing? 

I'd be surprised if that's actually true for most people on here. 

Personally, I can almost always tell. I notice when I can't. 

[Melissa Louise]

18 minutes ago, KSera said:

Well, true. I shouldn't have said "address" but "refer to." I assure you it's very frequent that one ends up using someone's pronouns in their presence. It's all the time in a family with multiple children in the room at one time. Or when you're talking to a couple, or anyone of an infinite number of situations. I know this because my kid has only a couple people they aren't "out" to and on the rare occasions all three of us are talking, I have to be super language aware and it's tricky and awkward to avoid pronouns in those situations.

I'd say renouncing gender entirely is exactly what the gender critical are doing. They are saying, "there isn't this thing called gender." People have sexed bodies (which occasionally have sex differences, such as being intersexed), and that's it. There's no separate thing called "gender" which either does or doesn't agree with one's sex. Declaring oneself to be nonbinary is still saying gender is a real thing which is usually binary, but the nb person is claiming an identity outside that binary (or somewhere in the middle, depending how they conceive themself).

Yes, this. In social groups, in families, in classrooms, etc, etc.

Well, it shouldn't. But the current reality of the way things are is that it does. Because kids and young people have been repeatedly told that using the wrong pronouns causes people to kill themself, the result is that it really can have a very serious effect on some people's well being. It sucks and makes me angry, because this is primarily people who I know mean well and think they are protecting trans kids by saying these things, but they are in fact putting trans' lives more at risk. As long as kids thing being misgendered is a violent assault, it matters how they are addressed. It's up to the adults to change that belief system and trivialization of suicide, which in turn will help kids be more resilient.

 

I agree it's not necessarily clear, given people can be in all different places along a path of transition. On the phone you are more likely to make a mistake in assumption of gender. My ds will be identified as female 100% of time on the phone. OTOH, a post-testosterone voice change de-transitioned female is most likely to continue to be identified as male on the phone forever (unless she is able to get some very good voice therapy). In a world where gender and transition isn't a thing, I agree that the vast majority of people can have their sex correctly identified by voice post puberty.

I'm with you with kids. The less we teach kids that gender is a Very Important Thing that warrants all kinds of very serious interventions so that they stay in line with gender stereotypes, the better. I realize from this thread that in some parts of the country this seems much more difficult than others--I don't live somewhere that boys would be insulted for playing with dolls or girls for having short hair. That is foreign to me. But for adults that have already transitioned, I see no kindness at all in not respecting that and treating them accordingly.

I think this is very complicated by what I was saying above about the current social narrative around this. If a child has been taught to believe being misgendered is abusive, they will feel abused. It doesn't matter if that's not what you mean or intend and it's something they really should be able to roll with, if people are told something is abuse, they will experience it as such. I don't know how we reign that back in at this point, in an environment where one side is full of hateful disgusting things to say about transgender kids and adults and the other refuses to acknowledge the dearth of scientific basis for current practice, thinks gender is an immutable trait, and that there are no downsides to medicalization of one's gender identity. (Interestingly, it is acknowledged openly that gender identity is something that may change and shift throughout one's life--in open and affirming environments, it's not uncommon to have a bathroom policy which states that it may change daily how one identifies, and thus which bathroom one chooses to use-- which makes it more curious to me that it would make any sense to make permanent medical changes on the basis of it.)

That's pretty interesting, but it makes sense.

I am very clear in what abuse is and isn't, unfortunately.

'You f***ING sl*t' = abuse

'she' for a female person = not abuse

 

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'd be surprised if that's actually true for most people on here. 

Personally, I can almost always tell. I notice when I can't. 

I think this is funny, because if you are making the wrong judgment, how would you know you were wrong? I agree it’s pretty clear for people who aren’t transgender. I’d be very surprised if you have never interacted with any post transition people who you never guessed were transgender. It might be different if you lived in a small town, but having lived in New York and I think California? That seems very unlikely.

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I am very clear in what abuse is and isn't, unfortunately.

'You f***ING sl*t' = abuse

'she' for a female person = not abuse

 

I haven’t said it’s actual abuse, I said it will be perceived by many people as abuse because that’s what they’ve been told it is. And for a population already struggling badly with their mental health more often than not, it’s the heaping on of coals for someone who’s not up to it at that point in their life. I’m all about not making life harder than it needs to be for people struggling with mental illness.

 

[Not_a_Number]

I have lots of thoughts on this one. It's kind of a mishmash, so bear with me. 

First of all, I think it's important to extend people respect. I will refer to people the way they want to be referred to. Whatever I think about this cultural moment, I will not change it by making people feel angry and aggrieved. People's emotions and needs are genuine even when they are affected by the prevailing cultural narratives. (In fact, all of our needs and thoughts are predicated on our social context, so dismissing any specific request or need is hypocritical.) 

I have a lot of sympathy with @maize's point that you can't control other people. I think that's a concept that generalizes very well -- as far as possible, you should figure out how to live your life in a way that accepts that you can't change people. What that means is that people should learn to have boundaries that allow them to function healthily regardless of what people around them. The narratives I've heard from the trans communities are the opposite of this. 

That being said, in examples like with @Amira's daughter, I don't think there's any reason to extend grace to someone who obviously just no longer accepts you. In that situation, you can see that your grandfather is going to consistently use a gender you'd prefer not he use, and you can decide what level of interaction with this person will allow you to be comfortable. I would personally guess that as someone gets more comfortable in their new identity, interaction gets more comfortable. In fact, I've seen this in a variety of contexts --  when someone takes on a new way of being, it takes a while to be able to coexist with people who didn't join you on your journey. There's a reason that they talk about the convert's zeal. (I saw this firsthand in my dad, who became an Orthodox Jew when he was around 30.) 

Another thing that's obvious is that this cultural shift is affecting people's self-perceptions. Like people said above, one's identity is an issue of community and presentation, not just of internal awareness. I've seen many reports of trans and non-binary little kids in the last 5 years. I don't in any way believe that all those kids were simply hiding their "true feelings" before. How one feels is a matter of cultural context. People are trying on these identities the same way people try on all sorts of culturally acceptable identity. But this one troubles me more than most, because it comes with potential surgical intervention and more of a disruption in self-concept. 

However, I'd also like to push back on the idea that there's no such thing as "feeling male" or "feeling female." I think they tested that theory when they tried to raise boys whose penises had been damaged accidents as female. As it turns out, most of those boys were unhappy and didn't fit in with girls. I don't think it's correct to say that gender is a purely social construct. (That being said, it's not at all obvious to me that most trans kids feel like the opposite gender in the way that those boys did. Not on average.) 

I'm really disturbed by the idea that we do NOT know whether transitioning helps with mental health risks (and that at least some long-term studies suggest otherwise.) I'm suspicious of the quality of most medical studies, but it's just unconscionable that we're pursuable treatment blind like that. 

Hm, that's all I remember that I wanted to reply to! Thanks for reading to the end of my rambling :D. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

I think this is funny, because if you are making the wrong judgment, how would you know you were wrong? I agree it’s pretty clear for people who aren’t transgender. I’d be very surprised if you have never interacted with any post transition people who you never guessed were transgender. It might be different if you lived in a small town, but having lived in New York and I think California? That seems very unlikely.

Ah, my bad. I do think all bets are off when someone's taken hormones. 

[Sneezyone]

21 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Absolutely.  It’s not the majority but it’s a sizeable, extremely vocal minority.  “Gonna turn that boy gay” is an especially common thing to hear, usually directed at the mom, as in “Dang it Jane, you’re gonna turn that boy gay if you keep babying him”, or “Dang it Jane don’t let him play with those dolls, you’ll turn him gay”.   “My Suzy’s ain’t gonna cut her hair short like one of them d!kes”.    
 

A very sweet, well meaning lady complained to me about girls playing male parts in our theater club play, she was concerned it might confuse them, “like so many kids these days”. She wanted to make sure they knew that “wasn’t ok” and  that we shouldn't be allowing it.    
 

I live in Moms for Liberty country where the appearance of 2 men on the same page of a picture book is pornography that should banned from libraries.   

I had an intern in our office say something very similar in a staff meeting. He thought it was a joke. He was mad taking his son to see Frozen2 because he thought the movie would feature the adventures of Kristof and Olaf. For a variety of reasons, he chose to obtain other employment but we remain friends.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Sneezyone

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

First of all, I think it's important to extend people respect. I will refer to people the way they want to be referred to. Whatever I think about this cultural moment, I will not change it by making people feel angry and aggrieved. People's emotions and needs are genuine even when they are affected by the prevailing cultural narratives. (In fact, all of our needs and thoughts are predicated on our social context, so dismissing any specific request or need is hypocritical.) 

I think this is well said. This might be a dumb example, but think of places where a woman showing her ankles is scandalous. We may “know” it’s no big deal to show your ankles, but for a woman in that culture, someone lifting her dress a couple inches to expose her ankles in public may indeed feel like an assault to her. It’s irrelevant that it would be no big deal to us. 

[Heartstrings]

8 minutes ago, KSera said:

I think this is funny, because if you are making the wrong judgment, how would you know you were wrong? I agree it’s pretty clear for people who aren’t transgender. I’d be very surprised if you have never interacted with any post transition people who you never guessed were transgender. It might be different if you lived in a small town, but having lived in New York and I think California? That seems very unlikely.

This is exactly what I meant.  Sure, I can tell with most people.  I assume I’m correct 99.9% of the time with non trans people.  However, I have been surprised with people that I found out later were trans, In real life, on TV, on social media. Supergirl had a character that I watched for several episodes before my husband told me the actor was a trans woman.  I had no idea.  There are some that I can tell immediately are trans, but often enough I have had no clue.  

[Not_a_Number]

Oh, and I've had at least one significant interaction with this community IRL. I think it's a very useful one to think about.

One of my older girl's good homeschooling friends from first grade is trans. She transitioned as a toddler and by the time I met her, had been going by her female name for a while. 

This example illustrates a lot of the complications. On the one hand, no one pushed this kiddo to become trans. Her mom describes her asking for a dress and then never taking it off, so eventually they bought lots of dresses. And she chose how she wanted to be referred to. She was little enough that it was definitely not peer pressure. 

On the other hand . . . as this kiddo's grown up, it has become very clear that she's on the spectrum. And her parents divorced a few years ago, which is when I learned that the dad was abusive to the mom and to the kids. So . . . this is all very complicated. I personally wouldn't be surprised if the abusive dad is partially what made her reject the male identity. 

I don't have any lessons here. I want this kiddo to be as happy as possible in her life. I don't know if that means transitioning surgically or coming back to a male identity (she's now very much a tomboy.) But it's an interesting story. 

I also know some stories of people transitioning as teens or adults, which have a very different flavor from my perspective. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Melissa Louise]

10 minutes ago, KSera said:

I haven’t said it’s actual abuse, I said it will be perceived by many people as abuse because that’s what they’ve been told it is. And for a population already struggling badly with their mental health more often than not, it’s the heaping on of coals for someone who’s not up to it at that point in their life. I’m all about not making life harder than it needs to be for people struggling with mental illness.

 

Lots of people struggle with mental illness and trauma. No need to heap coals on them by making them jump through coerced gender rituals. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Lots of people struggle with mental illness and trauma. No need to heap coals on them by making them jump through coerced gender rituals. 

As far as I know, though, you refer to the people in your life in the way they'd like to be referred to. 

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

As far as I know, though, you refer to the people in your life in the way they'd like to be referred to. 

Yep. All the more reason not to have people moral grandstanding about making workplaces enby-safe. 

[SHP]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I address everyone as "you."

This caused a rush of memories from my college days when there was discussion about if it is "All you all" or just "You'll". 

Might be a southern thing. 

[maize]

I'm quite confident that evolutionary pressures have ensured that humans on average, like other animals, are very, very good at differentiating between post-adolescent males and females of our own species.  

My experience is that this happens automatically without thought. I noticed it in myself when watching co-ed martial arts tournaments; competitors were dressed identically (well, the uniform was identical--the fit was not) and groomed similarly; there weren't a lot of *cultural* gender markers in evidence. But as each individual stepped onto the stage my brain was automatically categorizing them as male or female--not even in a super conscious way, but at some point I noted the fact. I'd never met these people, I didn't know there names or anything else about them. But my brain made instantaneous male/female categorizations. 

I very much expect that such is the norm not only among humans but among nearly every other species of animal on our planet. 

[Danae]

25 minutes ago, maize said:

I'm quite confident that evolutionary pressures have ensured that humans on average, like other animals, are very, very good at differentiating between post-adolescent males and females of our own species.  

My experience is that this happens automatically without thought. I noticed it in myself when watching co-ed martial arts tournaments; competitors were dressed identically (well, the uniform was identical--the fit was not) and groomed similarly; there weren't a lot of *cultural* gender markers in evidence. But as each individual stepped onto the stage my brain was automatically categorizing them as male or female--not even in a super conscious way, but at some point I noted the fact. I'd never met these people, I didn't know there names or anything else about them. But my brain made instantaneous male/female categorizations. 

I very much expect that such is the norm not only among humans but among nearly every other species of animal on our planet. 

My two six foot tall post-pubescent sons are misgendered a lot.  They both have beautiful wavy hair which they wear long, usually in low ponytails and that is apparently enough to code “girl” for a lot of people.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Danae

[KSera]

18 minutes ago, maize said:

 

I'm quite confident that evolutionary pressures have ensured that humans on average, like other animals, are very, very good at differentiating between post-adolescent males and females of our own species.  

 

I think maybe we’re talking in circles about this because some people are talking about one thing and some are talking about another. I think it would be hard for people to argue that in general, our brains are very good at instantly categorizing people as male or female. Kids start doing it pretty well around 18 months. If someone has medically transitioned though, all bets are off. Certainly there will be many that you can still tell, but for the ones that you can’t, you’re never even aware that you miscategorized them. 
 

But in the case of this particular conversation, I think this part of the discussion started based on whether or not it’s necessary for someone to tell you their pronouns, with a couple people saying that they can tell anyway so there’s no need. If one’s pronouns match what someone would naturally classify them as, then no, there’s no reason it should be necessary, though some will choose to do so as a safety signal. Whereas those whose pronouns don’t match what people would naturally call them, this very argument that it’s easy to tell how to classify someone is the reason why they need to announce pronouns; otherwise they will be misgendered. We can (and are) having all kinds of other discussions about whether this matters or is appropriate or whatever else, but as far as how easy it is to classify someone, that’s part of the very reason for people giving pronouns  

 

 

 

[PronghornD]

49 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yep. All the more reason not to have people moral grandstanding about making workplaces enby-safe. 

I don't know that it is moral grandstanding for those of us who have a close family member who is trans. You may not understand our perspective, but it is very different from yours. It would be moral grandstanding perhaps if YOU did it, but not when we do it.

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

I am truly mind blown ppl cannot generally tell males from females.

Go and ride a bus. Look at who gets on and who gets off. Can you truly not tell that some people are female and others are male?

You really don't know until someone gives you their pronouns?

Was this always the case? Did you grow up not knowing? 

If I ride take public transportation I could probably off the cuff tell about 70% (total approximation) are female and male. 30% I'm not sure. I don't have the confidence to say for the 70% that I have them correct. 

I mean if they don't tell me and I'm not really interacting with them in a way that I need to know then I don't really care and I don't presume that I know.

I was an only child and my parents kept me pretty sheltered so I was pretty old before I knew there was a biological difference between boys and girls (I want to say like first or second grade). Before then I just thought people chose who they wanted to be. As for babies I thought parents observed them and decided.   

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I was an only child and my parents kept me pretty sheltered so I was pretty old before I knew there was a biological difference between boys and girls (I want to say like first or second grade). Before then I just thought people chose who they wanted to be. As for babies I thought parents observed them and decided.   

Thanks for sharing this charming anecdote. Wouldn't that be great? LOL

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, regentrude said:

Thanks for sharing this charming anecdote. Wouldn't that be great? LOL

I know you're kidding, but personally, I think it's be incredibly disorienting. 

I think the idea that the more choice we have, the better is a fallacy. 

[PronghornD]

3 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

There is some discussion amongst exploratory therapists (non-affirming) that would argue that these words do matter, and that mental health does not in fact improve when pronouns and identity are centered.  Maybe it might make the person feel better/safer in the short term, but this a fleeting feeling because so often this is not THE issue.  Gender has become the culturally approved and popular maladaptive coping mechanism to deal with the underlying issue, whether it is sexual trauma, ADHD, Autism, internalized homophobia, etc.  It is just an easy way for society to say look at me, I'm inclusive, when really it's just a red herring.  
 

Social transition is a psychological intervention.   After 18 obviously adults can do what they like, but it should not be treated so flippantly as to call it just being respectful. 

 

The problem here is that sometimes gender truly IS the issue. People want to sacrifice the well-being of those who are actually physically trans for the sake of other children who perhaps just think they are trans. What we really need is much better mental health care for all children. That is the root of the problem. Meet the unmet needs! That's much better than denying all trans people the right to their gender identity.

I am close to this issue, since I have a trans child. That may make me less objective, but it also gives me extra insight. I know my child and trust my child's self-perceptions just because of who they are. Yes, I do wonder if other people's kids are mistaken sometimes in their self-perceptions. But I do not want my child to have to suffer for their mistakes.

[Melissa Louise]

29 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

I don't know that it is moral grandstanding for those of us who have a close family member who is trans. You may not understand our perspective, but it is very different from yours. It would be moral grandstanding perhaps if YOU did it, but not when we do it.

You can give your pronouns, sure, just don't expect others to do so, particularly if they find it regressive.

I've had two gender dysphoric (diagnosed) children, btw. Lived experience here.

[Melissa Louise]

18 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I know you're kidding, but personally, I think it's be incredibly disorienting. 

I think the idea that the more choice we have, the better is a fallacy. 

Also, it's just wrong? 

We do have some choices available to us, but this idea that we are can choose to be anything is clearly incorrect. 

[PronghornD]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

You can give your pronouns, sure, just don't expect others to do so, particularly if they find it regressive.

I've had two gender dysphoric (diagnosed) children, btw. Lived experience here.

Yes, lived experience here too. I don't expect people to honor my child's pronouns, but I do mentally label someone a jerk when they don't. That's my lived experience. Unless you think there is absolutely no one who is truly trans, then who are you to judge the validity of my child's gender? I know that there is a big focus on genitals, but gender is also in our brains, and there is a lot of mystery there. The mystery is worth acknowledging and honoring. To assume you know more about a stranger's gender than they do is pretty presumptuous!

[PronghornD]

8 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Also, it's just wrong? 

We do have some choices available to us, but this idea that we are can choose to be anything is clearly incorrect. 

You are sure it is a choice. Others are not. My child could be an in-the-closet trans person or a person who is openly trans. Being trans is a condition, not a choice.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, PronghornD said:

Yes, lived experience here too. I don't expect people to honor my child's pronouns, but I do mentally label someone a jerk when they don't. That's my lived experience. Unless you think there is absolutely no one who is truly trans, then who are you to judge the validity of my child's gender? I know that there is a big focus on genitals, but gender is also in our brains, and there is a lot of mystery there. The mystery is worth acknowledging and honoring. To assume you know more about a stranger's gender than they do is pretty presumptuous!

I don't think there is anything internal called gender, no. 

[PronghornD]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

I don't think there is anything internal called gender, no. 

What is the factual basis for this belief?

[SanDiegoMom]

6 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

The problem here is that sometimes gender truly IS the issue. People want to sacrifice the well-being of those who are actually physically trans for the sake of other children who perhaps just think they are trans. What we really need is much better mental health care for all children. That is the root of the problem. Meet the unmet needs! That's much better than denying all trans people the right to their gender identity.

I am close to this issue, since I have a trans child. That may make me less objective, but it also gives me extra insight. I know my child and trust my child's self-perceptions just because of who they are. Yes, I do wonder if other people's kids are mistaken sometimes in their self-perceptions. But I do not want my child to have to suffer for their mistakes.

If you’ve listened to some of the detransitioners, they would tell you that MANY felt they were “true trans”.  Textbook cases.  They were diagnosed by psychologists and gender clinics.  Some older trans identified ppl believe there is no “true trans”.   
 

i agree with them.  I think reframing it to take out the ideology - the unfalsifiable belief in a gender identity -  leaves you with gender dysphoria, which may or may not be severe enough that one needs to transition in adulthood.  Then you can discuss remedies and the full ramifications of surgical and medical interventions from a better place of understanding. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, PronghornD said:

You are sure it is a choice. Others are not. My child could be an in-the-closet trans person or a person who is openly trans. Being trans is a condition, not a choice.

Being gender dysphoric is to experience having a multi-causal, under-researched condition of psychological  incongruence which may or may not be temporary. No, I don't believe children are born trans. 

 

[PronghornD]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Being gender dysphoric is to experience having a multi-causal, under-researched condition of psychological  incongruence which may or may not be temporary. No, I don't believe children are born trans. 

 

This is a belief, though, and cannot be proven true or false. The jury is still out.

[Melissa Louise]

6 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

What is the factual basis for this belief?

Nah-uh. It's up to proponents of gender identity to demonstrate this 'internal gender' exists, independent of sex and socialisation. 

I don't experience it, I see no plausible mechanism for it...

[PronghornD]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Nah-uh. It's up to proponents of gender identity to demonstrate this 'internal gender' exists, independent of sex and socialisation. 

I don't experience it, I see no plausible mechanism for it...

I assume that eventually there will be more known, but that will take time. In the meantime, the most logical thing might be to recognize that there is a lot scientists do not yet know.

I guess you do not accept as possible the explanations based on fetal development, with a different time period for genital formation and for development of gender in the brain. Why is this impossible to you?

[PronghornD]

I really take a middle-of-the-road view on this. I mean, there are detransitioners, but there are also people who have been transitioned for decades who have no regrets. If every single trans person is deluded, it seems like there would not be happy, satisfied, long-term trans persons. The challenge is to figure out how to determine which outcome a particular individual will have. That is, indeed, a tough task!

Edited August 4, 2023 by PronghornD

[philomama]

4 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Idgaf about other people's genitals.

I do gaf about 1. being asked to lie about what I see with my own eyes and 2. being asked to give scarce time and focus to advocacy to a philosophy and perspective I think is harmful and frankly, at times, bonkers.

 

4 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Females look like females to me.

I grew up around soft butch lesbians. They look like women to me.

I don't have this internalised, woman means feminine thing going on in my head. Women in all their presentations look like women to me, unless they have taken testosterone at doses designed to produce transmen. 

So… when you see my very slight 6yo with delicate features, mid-back length hair, a sparkly butterfly shirt, and purple shoes … he’d look male to you? You must have some amazing superpowers going on. 

On the one hand, you seem to think that everyone should embrace the sex that they were assigned at birth, and give up on gender norms. On the other hand, you think that you can identify people’s sex via how they present visually. There’s a serious tension here.

[lauraw4321]

1 minute ago, philomama said:

 

So… when you see my very slight 6yo with delicate features, mid-back length hair, a sparkly butterfly shirt, and purple shoes … he’d look male to you? You must have some amazing superpowers going on. 

On the one hand, you seem to think that everyone should embrace the sex that they were assigned at birth, and give up on gender norms. On the other hand, you think that you can identify people’s sex via how they present visually. There’s a serious tension here.

Fairly sure she said post-puberty. 

[Melissa Louise]

13 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

I assume that eventually there will be more known, but that will take time. In the meantime, the most logical thing might be to recognize that there is a lot scientists do not yet know.

I guess you do not accept as possible the explanations based on fetal development, with a different time period for genital formation and for development of gender in the brain. Why is this impossible to you?

It's illogical, there's no evidence for it, brain scans don't show such a difference (transwoman on oestrogen have brains like gay men's). 

[PronghornD]

9 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

It's illogical, there's no evidence for it, brain scans don't show such a difference (transwoman on oestrogen have brains like gay men's). 

So it is not really impossible to you but more like improbable.

[Melissa Louise]

13 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

So it is not really impossible to you but more like improbable.

Yes.

And as the evidence base is currently so weak, I don't think we should be organising society around it. 

If strong, replicable evidence emerges with a plausible mechanism for innate gender identity at odd with ones sex, and a way of clearly identifying 'transness',  I'd reconsider some aspects, like social transitioning of children. 

 

[PronghornD]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes.

And as the evidence base is currently so weak, I don't think we should be organising society around it. 

If strong, replicable evidence emerges with a plausible mechanism for innate gender identity at odd with ones sex, and a way of clearly identifying 'transness',  I'd reconsider some aspects, like social transitioning of children. 

 

I have been looking at the research, but I'll refrain from sending a blitz of links. In the meantime, what I really care about is my own dear kid. Maybe they are ahead of their time. However, I want them to have a good life even if the research isn't at the advanced stage we would like. My kid has always been unusually insightful and self-aware, and due to that characteristic, I cannot dismiss their lived experience.

 

[KSera]

 

2 hours ago, PronghornD said:

The problem here is that sometimes gender truly IS the issue. People want to sacrifice the well-being of those who are actually physically trans for the sake of other children who perhaps just think they are trans. What we really need is much better mental health care for all children. That is the root of the problem. Meet the unmet needs! That's much better than denying all trans people the right to their gender identity.

I am close to this issue, since I have a trans child. That may make me less objective, but it also gives me extra insight. I know my child and trust my child's self-perceptions just because of who they are. Yes, I do wonder if other people's kids are mistaken sometimes in their self-perceptions. But I do not want my child to have to suffer for their mistakes.

So many thoughts this. Yes, better mental health care. “Actually physically trans” vs “children who just think they are” is currently a distinction without a difference. You are trans if you think you are. That’s currently how it works. 
 

“But I do not want my child to have to suffer for [other kids’] mistakes.” Ouch. As a fellow parent of a trans child, this doesn’t land well with me at all. I assure you the people who made “mistakes” by transitioning were almost all as sure as your child is and their transition was not due to a moral failing on their part. I might have you confused with someone else, but my recollection is you have a non binary child who has not medicalized in any way? Or do I have you confused with someone else? If that’s the case, it’s pretty easy to feel like this is a right, clear path for your child. There’s really not a lot of risk in it. 

Edited August 4, 2023 by KSera
Clarification

[Scarlett]

12 hours ago, regentrude said:

But what I find fascinating is that some people obviously DO have a strong sense of gender identity. In order to experience gender dysphoria, a person must first have a sense of gender at all... and I've been thinking about that because I can't imagine what that feels like. 

I am thinking it feels like they want to change themselves.  

[PronghornD]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

So many thoughts this. Yes, better mental health care. “Actually physically trans” vs “children who just think they are” is currently a distinction without a difference. You are trans if you think you are. That’s currently how it works. 
 

“But I do not want my child to have to suffer for their mistakes.” Ouch. As a fellow parent of a trans child, this doesn’t land well with me at all. I assure you the people who made “mistakes” by transitioning were almost all as sure as your child is and their transition was not due to a moral failing on their part. I might have you confused with someone else, but my recollection is you have a non binary child who has not medicalized in any way? Or do I have you confused with someone else? If that’s the case, it’s pretty easy to feel like this is a right, clear path for your child. There’s really not a lot of risk in it. 

I am not sure what is offensive. I would assume detransitioners believe they made a mistake in transitioning, right? I said nothing at all about moral failings. Nor did I think about moral failings. A mistake is not, in my view, a moral failing. Trust me -- I make tons of mistakes! However, we need a system that takes care of both those who are making a mistake in transitioning and those who need to transition and will have a better life for having done so. And naturally my biggest concern is my own child.

My child has not transitioned medically, but that does NOT mean there is no risk. There is plenty of risk! There is the risk of taking hormones and wrecking your singing voice and your music career. There is the risk of not taking hormones and experiencing unnecessary, lifelong depression (but maybe having that music career). There is the risk of getting surgery or not getting surgery. Surgery is certainly a possibility. I don't understand why you think there is no risk for us. Being a vocalist adds extra risks that many people don't have to worry about.

I don't completely understand your first comment. I guess you are saying the current medical definition of trans only requires that a person think they are trans. If so, I wasn't aware of that. My point was a response to the notion that each transitioning person may present with a range of issues and may have confused cause and effect and be blaming it all on being trans. And I was putting that in opposition to someone who is trans and does not have complicating issues. I am sorry if I did not explain this right.

I hope this clears things up. Otherwise, please respond. I am certainly not trying to dis other people's kids.

 

[regentrude]

23 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I am thinking it feels like they want to change themselves.  

Sorry I was unclear. I meant I cannot imagine having a sense of gender in the first place. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, PronghornD said:

I have been looking at the research, but I'll refrain from sending a blitz of links. In the meantime, what I really care about is my own dear kid. Maybe they are ahead of their time. However, I want them to have a good life even if the research isn't at the advanced stage we would like. My kid has always been unusually insightful and self-aware, and due to that characteristic, I cannot dismiss their lived experience.

 

You can accept a child's experience without agreeing with any particular conclusion about that experience.

My children, no slouch in the self reflection stakes either, experienced dysphoria.

I disagreed that made them 'truly' the opposite sex to their observed sex.

The distress,  though temporary, was real; the conclusion was faulty. 

I think that disagreement was ultimately very grounding for them.