Question about diversity/inclusion language

[Ginevra]

50 minutes ago, Danae said:

For me a lot of this comes down to not needing to get involved in other people’s business.  If a new person at church introduces herself as Sally and wants to be referred to as “her” and I think Sally looks suspiciously masculine should I try to ferret out whether Sally is a biological female, maybe with severe PCOS, or a trans woman? No.  Sally’s chromosomal makeup and/or genital configuration is not information I need.  Unless I’m her doctor or her lover, it’s not my concern.  
 

Nobody in this thread is arguing against basic human decency. 

That is precisely why some wonder what the point of giving pronouns is. If someone tells me, “Hi! I’m Sally Anderson and this is my wife, Jane,” I do not need them to tell me their pronouns too.

This point came up in a diversity class I was in where a male who says he is not gay or trans but is asexual said he wondered sometimes if being part of the training panel makes his sexuality a subject at work, where it does not serve a purpose. Well, I wonder that, too. I’m not his lover or his doctor, so why do I care about his sexual inclinations or lack thereof? It has nothing at all to do with work. So why “come out” as asexual at all? 

 

[Ginevra]

4 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Or it's a little bit of progress because their daughters aren't afraid of being female or doesn't feel like being female limits them from what they want to do. 

As much as it's not perfect, things today in the workplace for me are a lot better than they were for my mom and my MIL. 

No argument from me there. My work environment is 1000x better than my mother’s or grandmother’s. I’m very glad to be an employed woman in 2023 rather than 1923…or even than 1983. 

[KSera]

7 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

If someone tells me, “Hi! I’m Sally Anderson and this is my wife, Jane,” I do not need them to tell me their pronouns too.

Well, presumably you're likely to make the right guess with a person named Sally, particularly if the person appears clearly female. But if you have a person named Taylor and no clear visual clues--or perhaps visual clues that seem at odds with whatever name they gave, then you may well need their pronouns in order to know how to address them. That needs to be not a big deal if someone gives pronouns. They give them, you use them, everyone is respectful, no big deal.

[EKS]

Just now, KSera said:

But if you have a person named Taylor and no clear visual clues--or perhaps visual clues that seem at odds with whatever name they gave, then you may well need their pronouns in order to know how to address them.

But one does not address people in the third person.

[Ginevra]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

Well, presumably you're likely to make the right guess with a person named Sally, particularly if the person appears clearly female. But if you have a person named Taylor and no clear visual clues--or perhaps visual clues that seem at odds with whatever name they gave, then you may well need their pronouns in order to know how to address them. That needs to be not a big deal if someone gives pronouns. They give them, you use them, everyone is respectful, no big deal.

For sure, if they give them, I will use them. I have been in this situation before; I don’t think it’s a big deal and it does not bother me. You say your names is Kye and you ask me to call you “he”? Sure. Whatever you want. I’ll even try to keep up with “they” if it were asked of me, though it hasn’t been. 
 

BUT. I *dont* think it follows that all the Sallys and Roberts of the world must also “give their pronouns” in a misguided attempt to keep anyone from ever having to seem different by giving unanticipated pronouns. It seems excessively coddling, like we should expect every person who is a little different to go to pieces if someone makes a mistake. 

[Melissa Louise]

5 hours ago, EKS said:

I'd argue that the term administrative assistant is just as gendered as secretary is.

It is!

And more to the point, regardless of the language used, admin assistant is still a gendered job, and pay rates/conditions historically reflect that.

Idgaf what my job is called if behind the lovely new title it's the same old unfair material conditions.

This hyper focus on language really seems to me like a top down way to obscure actual working conditions for workers. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Danae said:

For me a lot of this comes down to not needing to get involved in other people’s business.  If a new person at church introduces herself as Sally and wants to be referred to as “her” and I think Sally looks suspiciously masculine should I try to ferret out whether Sally is a biological female, maybe with severe PCOS, or a trans woman? No.  Sally’s chromosomal makeup and/or genital configuration is not information I need.  Unless I’m her doctor or her lover, it’s not my concern.  
 

I really loathe the use of PCOS in this way.

No, I don't suffer from PCOS, but women with PCOS don't look 'suspiciously masculine' and are not a comparator for males with a cross sex presentation.

 

 

 

[regentrude]

30 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

 If someone tells me, “Hi! I’m Sally Anderson and this is my wife, Jane,” I do not need them to tell me their pronouns too.

I don't understand this comment. If Sally would like to be referred to as they , how would you know that if not by them telling you? It has nothing to do with who Sally's partner is.

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Danae said:

For me a lot of this comes down to not needing to get involved in other people’s business.  If a new person at church introduces herself as Sally and wants to be referred to as “her” and I think Sally looks suspiciously masculine should I try to ferret out whether Sally is a biological female, maybe with severe PCOS, or a trans woman? No.  Sally’s chromosomal makeup and/or genital configuration is not information I need.  Unless I’m her doctor or her lover, it’s not my concern.  
 

I agree.  All of a sudden people are spending a lot of time thinking about everyone else’s genitalia and I think it’s  weird and off putting.  

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

People have to stop hating trans people so much before we can improve any of this.   Being non binary or just non conforming should be an acceptable option, but as long as being trans is the worst possible thing we’re going to have parents and society pushing the stereotypes even harder, because you need to “prove” that you aren’t trans by being overly feminine or overly masculine.  
 

I follow a few women on tic tok who are women by birth, are straight, cis women, but who wear short hair and masculine clothes and they get death and rape threats for it.  Not confirming to stereotypes can be dangerous. 

People should be able to be androgynous in their presentation, sure, or wear clothes not typically associated with their sex, and do so safely.

Short hair and less femininity was the actual fashion for women for a few decades there, and no-one was getting death threats for it, so things really have gone backwards.

Believing the only way to opt out is to cultivate a (false) idea that some people are neither men nor women is just playing into the oppressiveness of gender, imo.

 

[maize]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

This hyper focus on language really seems to me like a top down way to obscure actual working conditions for workers. 

I have yet to see significant material change come about from the manipulation of words.

All the obsession with pronouns in English always brings to my mind the fact that Chinese uses a non-gendered* 3rd person singular pronoun. And anyone who knows anything about Chinese culture and history knows that they've managed heaps and mountains of gender expectations and limitations in spite of gender neutral pronouns.

*in modern written form there is now a distinct female-ta character, invented according to my understanding to translate foreign texts into Chinese.  The word itself remains the same for male and female. 

 

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Believing the only way to opt out is to cultivate a (false) idea that some people are neither men nor women is just playing into the oppressiveness of gender, imo.

That is an interesting point, especially since you acknowledge the oppressiveness of gender. So if people want to renounce that, why is it playing into it? Couldn't it be rather understood as an act of rebellion? 

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I agree.  All of a sudden people are spending a lot of time thinking about everyone else’s genitalia and I think it’s  weird and off putting.  

Idgaf about other people's genitals.

I do gaf about 1. being asked to lie about what I see with my own eyes and 2. being asked to give scarce time and focus to advocacy to a philosophy and perspective I think is harmful and frankly, at times, bonkers.

[EKS]

13 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

This hyper focus on language really seems to me like a top down way to obscure actual working conditions for workers. 

It's a top down way to pretend to be doing something about...All The Things...and not doing anything at all.  These days, everything seems to have turned into a form of virtue signalling.  I am so incredibly tired of it.

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That is an interesting point, especially since you acknowledge the oppressiveness of gender. So if people want to renounce that, why is it playing into it? Couldn't it be rather understood as an act of rebellion? 

It could, if it wasn't accompanied by 'but of course, that's because I'm not a woman or a man'. 

No.

If you're a woman opting out of femininity, awesome! Rock that. It's rebellious BECAUSE you're a woman not being defined by stereotypes. Vice versa for men. Deconstruct, don't reify, gender.

 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

It's a top down way to pretend to be doing something about...All The Things...and not doing anything at all.  These days, everything seems to have turned into a form of virtue signalling.  I am so incredibly tired of it.

I do wonder if it's an elaborate societal form of defence against death anxiety at times.

[EKS]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

I do wonder if it's an elaborate societal form of defence against death anxiety at times.

It has been likened to a religion, and religion is typically tied into death anxiety.

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Idgaf about other people's genitals.

I do gaf about 1. being asked to lie about what I see with my own eyes and 2. being asked to give scarce time and focus to advocacy to a philosophy and perspective I think is harmful and frankly, at times, bonkers.

Not directed at you specifically, but to your point 1, what you see with your own eyes, this is a thing that concerns me. How pretty and feminine do I need to be to be perceived as female?   How far do I have to go into the gender stereotypes to ensure that people believe me when I say I am female, for them to believe their own eyes?   Given that being trans or perceived as trans, in my area would be a death sentence, and since I do not feel as though I am an especially attractive woman, it worries me from time to time.  Are dresses enough? Make up, heels and hose?  Meek voice?

[Melissa Louise]

13 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I don't understand this comment. If Sally would like to be referred to as they , how would you know that if not by them telling you? It has nothing to do with who Sally's partner is.

Omg, why is Sally so invested in how Sally is referred to, especially when Sally is not there?

People could be talking about me in my absence as he/him and I would not give a toss, because I am not there.

It's just so controlling.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

Not directed at you specifically, but to your point 1, what you see with your own eyes, this is a thing that concerns me. How pretty and feminine do I need to be to be perceived as female?   How far do I have to go into the gender stereotypes to ensure that people believe me when I say I am female, for them to believe their own eyes?   Given that being trans or perceived as trans, in my area would be a death sentence, and since I do not feel as though I am an especially attractive woman, it worries me from time to time.  Are dresses enough? Make up, heels and hose?  Meek voice?

Females look like females to me.

I grew up around soft butch lesbians. They look like women to me.

I don't have this internalised, woman means feminine thing going on in my head. Women in all their presentations look like women to me, unless they have taken testosterone at doses designed to produce transmen. 

If having short hair is a death sentence in your neck of the woods, I'd advise moving stat, as unfair as that might be.

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, EKS said:

It has been likened to a religion, and religion is typically tied into death anxiety.

I have random thoughts in my heads about this hyper-focus on gender as distraction from culture/empire ending issues.

[Melissa Louise]

Seriously, are some of you actually confused when you see a butch woman? Do you think she must be NB or trans?

I think there may be some internalised stuff for people to deal with if they think that. Femininity has nothing much intrinsically to do with being female, or even with being a woman.

Women comes in all sorts of presentations, from masculine women to hyper feminine women and everything in between. This was once thought to be a good thing?

 

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Omg, why is Sally so invested in how Sally is referred to, especially when Sally is not there?

People could be talking about me in my absence as he/him and I would not give a toss, because I am not there.

But sometimes the person is being referred to while present.
I deal with that regularly in moderating class discussions, during joint advising sessions, conversations in a group. 

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Seriously, are some of you actually confused when you see a butch woman? Do you think she must be NB or trans?

I think there may be some internalised stuff for people to deal with if they think that. Femininity has nothing much intrinsically to do with being female, or even with being a woman.

Women comes in all sorts of presentations, from masculine women to hyper feminine women and everything in between. This was once thought to be a good thing?

 

At this point the hormones or whatever are just so good that I have seen plenty of trans people that I feel 100% pass.  I no longer feel that I would be able to tell.  At that point it just doesn’t matter anymore.  If a person says they are a dude, looks like a dude, walks like a dude, why would I spend time thinking about if he’s lying to me about his package or lack there of.  

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, regentrude said:

But sometimes the person is being referred to while present.
I deal with that regularly in moderating class discussions, during joint advising sessions, conversations in a group. 

Which is why the whole thing is ridiculous.

Is it really going to kill you, destroy your well-being, if your tutor or professor says 'she' about a woman instead of 'they'? No. It doesn't matter.

None of these language games matter.

Seriously, the planet is on fire, society is failing to meet the social contract in a million and one ways, and this is what we use our limited and precious time on?

Someone's pronouns?

I don't even think it is responsible of me to add weight to the idea that any of this matters. It's the most unbearable luxury belief, that human rights can be reduced to pronouns. 

 

 

[regentrude]

8 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Seriously, are some of you actually confused when you see a butch woman? Do you think she must be NB or trans?

I regularly encounter students where, by looking at them, I simply have no clue whether they are a man or a woman. So yes, sometimes I am confused until they tell me who they are and how they would like to be referred to. I prefer that to making assumptions.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

At this point the hormones or whatever are just so good that I have seen plenty of trans people that I feel 100% pass.  I no longer feel that I would be able to tell.  At that point it just doesn’t matter anymore.  If a person says they are a dude, looks like a dude, walks like a dude, why would I spend time thinking about if he’s lying to me about his package or lack there of.  

Ugh, I'll just note that my workplace context is an elementary school.

Nobody is talking about/thinking about 'packages'. 

If a girl says she is a boy, I will have many concerns about what is going on for that student. If I am directed to address her as a boy, I will do so, because I can't afford to lose my job. I will have serious concerns about whether I am behaving ethically in terms of reinforcing something that is harmful to the individual.

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, regentrude said:

I regularly encounter students where, by looking at them, I simply have no clue whether they are a man or a woman. So yes, sometimes I am confused until they tell me who they are and how they would like to be referred to. I prefer that to making assumptions.

I find this astounding.

Males and females, particularly in person where height, body fat distribution, shape, Adams apple, voice etc are able to be observed- are distinguishable 99% of the time.

[Ginevra]

22 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I don't understand this comment. If Sally would like to be referred to as they , how would you know that if not by them telling you? It has nothing to do with who Sally's partner is.

Because someone introducing themselves as Sally is going to be presumed “she”, unless they say otherwise. If they say otherwise - fine. We’re good. I will even try to keep up with “they”. In fact, I do use they/them/their as a singular fairly often now to stand in as “anyone”. (For example, “The employee has been leaving their trash on the break room table.”) 

More directly to the point: I don’t think all the people should “normalize” giving pronouns so that a tiny sliver of people can never be presented with a mistake. I gave the example of my husband, who would absolutely never be confused with a female in person, but his name is infrequently given to male children. People make mistakes when they only see his name, or both of our names together. (My veterinarian cannot get it through his head that I am not the name he keeps calling me; that is my husband. At this point, it’s whatever. I’m tired of correcting him.) But that’s my point. It’s not a tragedy if someone gets called the wrong name or pronoun. Just correct them - or choose not to - and move on. 

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Is it really going to kill you, destroy your well-being, if your tutor or professor says 'she' about a woman instead of 'they'? No. It doesn't matter.

None of these language games matter.

I guess I will bow out of the discussion.
It matters to me in the same way I want to get the pronunciation of their name right or use their preferred nickname. Or say good morning and thank you.
Yes, in a world in trouble these pleasantries don't matter either. But they make one person feel a little bit better about the interaction without costing me anything. 

[Heartstrings]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

obody is talking about/thinking about 'packages'.

I think cultural context might be at play here.   People are 100% thinking about what is in the underpants of even elementary school children in the US, and I’m thinking you are in Australia?
 We have been debating having children undergo genital checks prior to playing any kind of sports. 
 

 

You say you would be worried if a girl says she’s a boy.  What about new students, how are you sure the child saying they are a boy was born that way? Kids often change schools as they transition, for a fresh start.  If Billy is new to school, how are you sure Billy wasn’t born Brianna? 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, regentrude said:

I guess I will bow out of the discussion.
It matters to me in the same way I want to get the pronunciation of their name right or use their preferred nickname. Or say good morning and thank you.
Yes, in a world in trouble these pleasantries don't matter either. But they make one person feel a little bit better about the interaction without costing me anything. 

All you need to understand is that it isn't cost-free for everyone.

Having a significant history of living with coercion, people playing language games with me - and forcing me to go along with said language games - is extremely triggering.

You might say, 'well, go deal with your triggers'. Fair.

In which case, so can those who are triggered by 'wrong' pronoun use. It's only fair.

 

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I find this astounding.

Males and females, particularly in person where height, body fat distribution, shape, Adams apple, voice etc are able to be observed- are distinguishable 99% of the time.

okay, then I am probably just an idiot - or among the five hundred students I have each semester, there is huge variety in body shapes and sizes, prominence of Adam's apples etc. 
ETA: or they are, in fact, trans persons who are in the process of hormone treatment. I wouldn't know. They don't wear T-shirts advertising the fact.

Edited August 3, 2023 by regentrude

[AnotherNewName]

On 8/1/2023 at 7:50 PM, Kassia said:

Today was dd's first day at her new job and she had the usual diversity and inclusion training. They were told to avoid saying things like "oh man" or "oh brother" or "businessman" or "mankind."

Does anyone know how/why some of these would be inappropriate? I looked up "oh man" and "oh brother" and couldn't find anything.

I am still stuck on "oh brother" and "oh man" being considered gendered terms.  I understand "mankind" and "businessman" (although businessman is often correct in context) but policing general expressions seems to be on same the level as PETA wanting to replace "bring home the bacon" with "bring home the vegetables" levels of absurdity.

Edited August 3, 2023 by AnotherNewName

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, AnotherNewName said:

I am still stuck on "oh brother" and "oh man" being considered gendered terms.  I understand "mankind" and "businessman" (although businessman is often correct in context) but policing general expressions seems on the level as PETA wanting to replace "bring home the bacon" with "bring home the vegetables" levels of absurdity.

I do agree with this.   

[SanDiegoMom]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I guess I will bow out of the discussion.
It matters to me in the same way I want to get the pronunciation of their name right or use their preferred nickname. Or say good morning and thank you.
Yes, in a world in trouble these pleasantries don't matter either. But they make one person feel a little bit better about the interaction without costing me anything. 

There is some discussion amongst exploratory therapists (non-affirming) that would argue that these words do matter, and that mental health does not in fact improve when pronouns and identity are centered.  Maybe it might make the person feel better/safer in the short term, but this a fleeting feeling because so often this is not THE issue.  Gender has become the culturally approved and popular maladaptive coping mechanism to deal with the underlying issue, whether it is sexual trauma, ADHD, Autism, internalized homophobia, etc.  It is just an easy way for society to say look at me, I'm inclusive, when really it's just a red herring.  
 

Social transition is a psychological intervention.   After 18 obviously adults can do what they like, but it should not be treated so flippantly as to call it just being respectful. 

 

[Ginevra]

4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

okay, then I am probably just an idiot - or among the five hundred students I have each semester, there is huge variety in body shapes and sizes, prominence of Adam's apples etc. 
 

I do think it’s getting harder with this slice of the young population, given that some have had puberty blockers, cross-gender hormones and/or one or more surgeries to remove sex organs and/or breasts. But for, say, the 30-and-up population, it is very rarely that I simply cannot tell if this is a man or woman. Even on the phone, I am almost always correct in my assumption of gender, age group and race or Nationality. People have many, many clues in their voices, word choices, accent and tonality that gives all of this information in a very short time. 

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Ginevra said:

I do think it’s getting harder with this slice of the young population, given that some have had puberty blockers, cross-gender hormones and/or one or more surgeries to remove sex organs and/or breasts. But for, say, the 30-and-up population, it is very rarely that I simply cannot tell if this is a man or woman. Even on the phone, I am almost always correct in my assumption of gender, age group and race or Nationality. People have many, many clues in their voices, word choices, accent and tonality that gives all of this information in a very short time. 

I think on the phone it could even be easier. since you only have the voice to go by and not conflicting visual information of their presentation?

[Danae]

8 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I do think it’s getting harder with this slice of the young population, given that some have had puberty blockers, cross-gender hormones and/or one or more surgeries to remove sex organs and/or breasts. But for, say, the 30-and-up population, it is very rarely that I simply cannot tell if this is a man or woman. Even on the phone, I am almost always correct in my assumption of gender, age group and race or Nationality. People have many, many clues in their voices, word choices, accent and tonality that gives all of this information in a very short time. 

If you were wrong how would you know?

[regentrude]

11 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

There is some discussion amongst exploratory therapists (non-affirming) that would argue that these words do matter, and that mental health does not in fact improve when pronouns and identity are centered.  Maybe it might make the person feel better/safer in the short term, but this a fleeting feeling because so often this is not THE issue.  Gender has become the culturally approved and popular maladaptive coping mechanism to deal with the underlying issue, whether it is sexual trauma, ADHD, Autism, internalized homophobia, etc.  It is just an easy way for society to say look at me, I'm inclusive, when really it's just a red herring.  
 

Social transition is a psychological intervention.   After 18 obviously adults can do what they like, but it should not be treated so flippantly as to call it just being respectful. 

 

Thank for the perspective. Since I am not their therapist, it is not my place to decide that I know better than they do. Should one go against an adult's wishes in how they want to be referred to? Because one believes it's for their benefit to do so?

My job is to make the person comfortable in that moment. So they feel included and in the best mindframe for learning. I feel it would be grossly overstepping to tell another adult what one thinks about their gender identity. 

[Melissa Louise]

I find is very gaslighty, this insistence that you can't tell most of the time. It's not meant to be abusive (I don't think) but it is out of an abuser's playbook. Make you doubt evidence of your own eyes. It's a really unpleasant way to prosecute your case for asking others their pronouns. 

Most of the time, you can tell a person's sex without having to think.

There are good reasons a woman might want to be aware of a person's sex, as well. Male persons are always going to be more of statistical risk to her than females. 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[EKS]

23 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

There is some discussion amongst exploratory therapists (non-affirming) that would argue that these words do matter, and that mental health does not in fact improve when pronouns and identity are centered. 

This is why I think that what people are doing to kids by allowing them to socially transition is unconscionable.  I know for a fact that my life would have taken a different course had this happened to me.  A course that would have very likely involved sexual dysfunction, sterility, and mutilation.

[Melissa Louise]

34 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think cultural context might be at play here.   People are 100% thinking about what is in the underpants of even elementary school children in the US, and I’m thinking you are in Australia?
 We have been debating having children undergo genital checks prior to playing any kind of sports. 
 

 

You say you would be worried if a girl says she’s a boy.  What about new students, how are you sure the child saying they are a boy was born that way? Kids often change schools as they transition, for a fresh start.  If Billy is new to school, how are you sure Billy wasn’t born Brianna? 

Until Billy hits puberty, not very 

We should still know.

Her femaleness is relevant to a number of things, including safety during sport, learning challenge presentation, safety and dignity, menstrual needs etc

 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

Thank for the perspective. Since I am not their therapist, it is not my place to decide that I know better than they do. Should one go against an adult's wishes in how they want to be referred to? Because one believes it's for their benefit to do so?

My job is to make the person comfortable in that moment. So they feel included and in the best mindframe for learning. I feel it would be grossly overstepping to tell another adult what one thinks about their gender identity. 

In college I do agree with your perspective. For the under 18’s, I think there is a greater need for caution and slowness.  I listen to the “Gender: A Wider Lens” podcast and they talk about child-centered vs child-led.   The latest episode discusses non-affirmation at a therapeutic boarding school, where they started out with affirmation only and switched back to using Assigned at birth names and gender. They realized that the first method wasn’t helping these kids, most who had had 10-15 hospitalizations at that point, and discovered gender oftentimes while in the hospitals. They realized the gender was often used as a shield, or an attempt at a quick fix and following their lead wasn’t actually helping them at all. So they changed and told them that they could call themselves whatever they wanted to each other, that the adults would call them their birth names and gender.  They found that the social contagion of gender (which it WAS absolutely a contagion) then led to a “culture of desistance”.  It suddenly became less important because they were still having their needs taken care of. Which on the end often is what it’s about - a way to signal distress and a call for help.  But often it’s shielding the real problems underneath. 
 

sorry this wasn’t all directed at you- I just listened to this episode today and found it fascinating. 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, EKS said:

This is why I think that what people are doing to kids by allowing them to socially transition is unconscionable.  I know for a fact that my life would have taken a different course had this happened to me.  A course that would have very likely involved sexual dysfunction, sterility, and mutilation.

And this is why I do not wish to play along with children's trans identities. For me, to do so would be deeply unethical. 

[SKL]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

Well, presumably you're likely to make the right guess with a person named Sally, particularly if the person appears clearly female. But if you have a person named Taylor and no clear visual clues--or perhaps visual clues that seem at odds with whatever name they gave, then you may well need their pronouns in order to know how to address them. That needs to be not a big deal if someone gives pronouns. They give them, you use them, everyone is respectful, no big deal.

I address everyone as "you."

[Clarita]

26 minutes ago, regentrude said:

okay, then I am probably just an idiot - or among the five hundred students I have each semester, there is huge variety in body shapes and sizes, prominence of Adam's apples etc. 

You and me both, I know other people can tell things about people by looking or hearing them, but I am inept at this. I do not trust my ability to just tell whether a person is female or male by birth, whether they are from mainland China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea or Vietnamese (I'm Chinese), I'm often wrong about how old someone is... So I am always appreciative that someone spells these things out for me instead of having me blunder my way through. I could not imagine having to do that for 100s of students a semester.

I live in an area where the whole pronouns thing is happening. I'm not sure what some of you are picturing happening in the corporate world. Mostly it is voluntary, it's just something people add to signature lines, the people who opt into it most usually are people who are client facing. Admittedly some corporations blunder in with having a weird meeting, or making it mandatory or something, most quickly shift gears and it's voluntary aside from a training or two which really focus on how to navigate getting along with all people (different ethnicities, genders, LGPTQ+) and what are the company policies surrounding all of that. This would be the meeting where they tell you some ways/methods they are trying to make the workplace a tolerable place for everyone to work and at this meeting would also be a place where they tell you what you should do if someone is harassing you or making your workplace intolerable. 

These corporations are just trying to make money not trying to change the world for better, There are some companies who think that if they give their employees a better environment to work in that that will improve their productivity. It does suck that not everyone has employers who care about how they feel at work. 

[Ginevra]

44 minutes ago, Danae said:

If you were wrong how would you know?

Because I meet them in person eventually. If I were wrong before I met them in person and someone said, “Hey, it’s not ‘he’; it’s ‘she’,” then, okay, I stand corrected. Sorry. 

[Melissa Louise]

I am truly mind blown ppl cannot generally tell males from females.

Go and ride a bus. Look at who gets on and who gets off. Can you truly not tell that some people are female and others are male?

You really don't know until someone gives you their pronouns?

Was this always the case? Did you grow up not knowing? 

 

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Seriously, are some of you actually confused when you see a butch woman? Do you think she must be NB or trans?

I think there may be some internalised stuff for people to deal with if they think that. Femininity has nothing much intrinsically to do with being female, or even with being a woman.

Women comes in all sorts of presentations, from masculine women to hyper feminine women and everything in between. This was once thought to be a good thing?

 

1. Normally I can tell if a person is male or female without giving it any thought at all, regardless of dress, hair, etc.  This is probably true 99.999% of the time for those not trying to look like the opposite sex, and probably 80% of the time for those trying to look like the opposite sex.

2. Most likely I've made a couple of mistakes over the past 56 years.  I can be corrected.

3. Since idgaf whether a person is male or female 99.999% of the time, this takes up 0% of my brain space.  My work and my interpersonal interactions are exactly the same whether you're male, female, or anything else you decide you are that day.  The only exception would be if I was interested in dating you, or if I had to perform healthcare services on you where sex makes a difference.

4.  For those of you who live in horrible places where people would beat you up for looking however you look,, I agree that it's time to move.  Most of us aren't in that kind of environment.

Edited August 3, 2023 by SKL