Question about diversity/inclusion language

[Clarita]

3 minutes ago, maize said:

This is truly befuddling to me.

In the many years I lived in places where the standard English pronunciation of my name didn't match local linguistic patterns,  never once did it occur to me to expect let alone demand that the people around me use the pronunciation my family used at home.

I adapted quite easily to the variations on my name that flowed comfortably in the native dialects of the people around me. Their mouths, speaking in the way that was comfortable to them.

Seems perfectly reasonable and accomodatable to me.

It's one thing when the person with the name gets to decide the nickname and accommodation. It's not right when someone else decides it. 

If Joaquin says "You can call me Joe." Great we can all chose to call him Joaquin or Joe. Not OK if Hanh introduces herself as Hanh and you decide upon yourself she should be called Hannah. No one can make you stop calling her Hannah but you are a jerk.

[Ginevra]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

Joaquin, "Wah-keem," prefers no nicknames 

Devin, "Deh-vin," he/him/his 

Katrina, prefers "Katy," they/them 

Does anyone genuinely consider that difficult? 

I don’t consider any of these difficult. However…

Getting my kid signed up for something at college, there was a “pronoun” drop-down with, like, seven choices. Stuff I have never, ever heard of. Now *that* really is ridiculous. I’ve never heard someone say they want to be called “Per” or “Hum” (interesting tangent: autocorrect has never heard of hum either and changed it to him, hah) and WTF professor is going to remember that? It’s stupid, I’m sorry. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I don’t consider any of these difficult. However…

Getting my kid signed up for something at college, there was a “pronoun” drop-down with, like, seven choices. Stuff I have never, ever heard of. Now *that* really is ridiculous. I’ve never heard someone say they want to be called “Per” or “Hum” (interesting tangent: autocorrect has never heard of hum either and changed it to him, hah) and WTF professor is going to remember that? It’s stupid, I’m sorry. 

If it doesn’t apply, move on. It’s not there for you but for those who need/prefer it.

[maize]

15 minutes ago, Clarita said:

It's one thing when the person with the name gets to decide the nickname and accommodation. It's not right when someone else decides it. 

If Joaquin says "You can call me Joe." Great we can all chose to call him Joaquin or Joe. Not OK if Hanh introduces herself as Hanh and you decide upon yourself she should be called Hannah. No one can make you stop calling her Hannah but you are a jerk.

I was never given a choice, it just was what it was.

Which was fine.

I'm quite content to use a name that "fits" in the local phonetic system. 

I do think, like everything, things can be taken to an extreme. If I want to call Mi Kyeung "Micky" and I know she dislikes that, it would be rude of me to persist. But back to language being communal--I don't own what comes out of the mouths of others.

Edited August 2, 2023 by maize

[Ginevra]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

If it doesn’t apply, move on. It’s not there for you but for those who need/prefer it.

Who prefers it? Who needs it? If nobody knows what it even is, how does that serve anybody? 

 

It’s like, when there is a list of ethnic backgrounds to choose from. I’ve never seen Irish. I’ve never seen Italian or German. I haven’t seen Greek. I mean - I don’t *care*, either, but if we’re going to be so inclusive, I don’t have ancestors from The Caucuses. If that’s even how you spell it, haha. So I’m not Caucasian; not in terms of the past hundred years or so. My people came from other places. But those drop-downs don’t mean to cover every possibility. But if they are being “inclusive” I guess they think they do have to for pronouns. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

Who prefers it? Who needs it? If nobody knows what it even is, how does that serve anybody? 

Why is that your business? It sounds like you’re just being nosy. What is the business case for you to know who/how many people prefer that term?

[Ginevra]

7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Why is that your business? It sounds like you’re just being nosy. What is the business case for you to know who/how many people prefer that term?

It’s a form for college. Shouldn’t that convey factual information? What benefit is there to anyone in having these imaginary terms for pronouns? Who is served by this? What professor is going to remember that my kid goes by Hum? It seems like virtue signaling only; I.e., “See how inclusive we are? Pick any pronoun you like; we’re fine with that.” 

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Ginevra said:

It’s a form for college. Shouldn’t that convey factual information? What benefit is there to anyone in having these imaginary terms for pronouns? Who is served by this? What professor is going to remember that my kid goes by Hum? It seems like virtue signaling only; I.e., “See how inclusive we are? Pick any pronoun you like; we’re fine with that.” 

No. ETA: You’re allowed to know what pertains to your MINOR child and only what your ADULT child voluntarily shares. Other students are NOT your business.

It should RECORD how the student wishes to be known/called and as Regentrude and Katilac pointed out, fortunately, many instructors do care/bother to respect their choices. It’s for the benefit of the STUDENT and any INSTRUCTOR/PROF who wishes to be more inclusive/respectful, not for you. 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Ginevra]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

No. It should RECORD how the student wishes to be known/called and as Regentrude and Katilac pointed out, fortunately, many instructors do care/bother to respect their choices.

Do you know what “Hum” means? Do you know what “Per” means? Without googling? 

[SKL]

39 minutes ago, maize said:

??? Why???

Inserting an English pronunciation of my name into a non-English phonetic system is all kinds of awkward, and actually most speakers of other languages literally cannot form an American rhotic "r" comfortably or competently. That's a speech sound that takes an awful lot of practice.

Nope, there was zero call for me to either try to impose that on anyone or to feel somehow slighted by their failure to attempt it.

 

I get a lot of eyerolls when I pronounce names and places using the likely pronunciation of origin.  (I study languages and travel a bit, so I don't have a reason not to use the foreign pronunciations.)

It gets awkward when the owner of the name (or his/her parents) don't even use the pronunciation of origin.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

Do you know what “Hum” means? Do you know what “Per” means? Without googling? 

I don’t know and don’t need to at this time, that’s always subject to change. If it’s not an identity I choose to apply to myself, I won’t. If you’re curious, use the google machine.

Further, and I know this annoys a lot of people, the reason you don’t see German, Irish, or Italian on the census is because those groups were subsumed into whiteness, happily and by choice, as part of the imperialist melting pot ideal. They’re only trotted out when much more consequential (in terms of national and state and local policy, not personally) identity markers are elevated in discourse.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

26 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

Who prefers it? Who needs it? If nobody knows what it even is, how does that serve anybody? 

 

It’s like, when there is a list of ethnic backgrounds to choose from. I’ve never seen Irish. I’ve never seen Italian or German. I haven’t seen Greek. I mean - I don’t *care*, either, but if we’re going to be so inclusive, I don’t have ancestors from The Caucuses. If that’s even how you spell it, haha. So I’m not Caucasian; not in terms of the past hundred years or so. My people came from other places. But those drop-downs don’t mean to cover every possibility. But if they are being “inclusive” I guess they think they do have to for pronouns. 

Don't get me started on the "ethnicity" question in the US!

(For those outside the US - every US government / school / medical form has the "ethnicity" question, and it's one yes/no question:  are you Hispanic or not?)

But yeah, the multiple-choice gender and pronoun questions.  😕

[Sneezyone]

Just now, SKL said:

Don't get me started on the "ethnicity" question in the US!

(For those outside the US - every US government / school / medical form has the "ethnicity" question, and it's one yes/no question:  are you Hispanic or not?)

But yeah, the multiple-choice gender and pronoun questions.  😕

We have NATIONALITY, RACE, and ETHNICITY questions on the census which are still clunky but helpful for my black, Spanish-speaking friend of Belizean descent and my white, Spanish-speaking friend of Cuban descent and my white, non-Spanish speaking friend of Mexican descent. Hispanic=language. Latin=geography.

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Further, and I know this annoys a lot of people, the reason you don’t see German, Irish, or Italian on the census is because those groups were subsumed into whiteness, happily and by choice, as part of the imperialist melting pot ideal. They’re only trotted out when much more consequential (in terms of national and state and local policy, not personally) identity markers are elevated in discourse.

They also exclude every non-European ethnicity.  Indian, Chinese, Korean, Palestinian, Kenyan, Sioux, and 100+ others are completely irrelevant.  So dumb.

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

We have NATIONALITY, RACE, and ETHNICITY questions on the census which are still clunky but helpful for my black, Spanish-speaking friend of Belizean descent and my white, Spanish-speaking friend of Cuban descent and my white, non-Spanish speaking friend of Mexican descent. Hispanic=language. Latin=geography.

Yay for the most recent US census which finally allowed people to be included.  However, we're not talking about one confidential form that is filed every 10 years, we're talking about dozens of forms filled out every year for all sorts of purposes.  They ask the yes/no Hispanic question (and the race question) only.

[Danae]

22 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

It’s a form for college. Shouldn’t that convey factual information? What benefit is there to anyone in having these imaginary terms for pronouns? Who is served by this? What professor is going to remember that my kid goes by Hum? It seems like virtue signaling only; I.e., “See how inclusive we are? Pick any pronoun you like; we’re fine with that.” 

The benefit of the drop down menu is that the professor won’t have to remember.  It shows up on the class roster, along with the name the student prefers to be called. (Not just for gender-related name changes.  It’s very handy to know that Timothy wants to be called Tim and Emily Rose uses both names while Emily Ann just goes by Emily and Peter David Smith Jr. goes by David (prob because his dad uses “Peter.”) )

 

edit to add:  ours also lets the student record an audio file with the pronunciation of their name.  I love it.  We also have a built in names/faces quiz so people (like me) who struggle with facial recognition can practice.  

Edited August 2, 2023 by Danae

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, SKL said:

They also exclude every non-European ethnicity.  Indian, Chinese, Korean, Palestinian, Kenyan, Sioux, and 100+ others are completely irrelevant.  So dumb.

It is clunky, but to suggest that groups who identify or are enrolled as Sioux and those who identify or are enrolled as an Iroquois have completely dissimilar national interests is equally ‘dumb’. These identities were created by in-groups/those identified as white, to classify out groups, everyone else. Now that those out groups have grown and begun exercising their power/numbers it’s a problem. Except, it’s not. It’s yet another made up way to try to minimize-marginalize/ignore real issues.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Yay for the most recent US census which finally allowed people to be included.  However, we're not talking about one confidential form that is filed every 10 years, we're talking about dozens of forms filled out every year for all sorts of purposes.  They ask the yes/no Hispanic question (and the race question) only.

Change it. Locally. Advocate for more inclusive demographic language. I suspect that’s not your point/goal tho. You want folks to abandon the identity markers with which they’ve been historically forced to identify (and now find meaning in).

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It is clunky, but to suggest that groups who identify or are enrolled as Sioux and those who identify or are enrolled as an Iroquois have completely dissimilar national interests is equally ‘dumb’. These identities were created by in-groups/those identified as white, to classify out groups, everyone else. Now that those groups have grown and begun exercising their power/numbers it’s a problem. Except, it’s not. It’s yet another made up way to try to minimize-marginalize/ignore real issues.

I don't know if we're communicating or not.  You're either Hispanic or not.  The "Non Hispanics" (all colors, races, classes, national origins, cultures, religions, and languages) are an extremely diverse "group."  It's dumb.

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Change it. Locally. Advocate for more inclusive demographic language. I suspect that’s not your point/goal tho. You want folks to abandon the identity markers with which they’ve been historically forced to identify (and now find meaning in).

I do?  Where did you get that?

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

I don't know if we're communicating or not.  You're either Hispanic or not.  The "Non Hispanics" (all colors, races, classes, national origins, cultures, religions, and languages) are an extremely diverse "group."  It's dumb.

It’s an ADDITIONAL designator, as you said, not the only. It encompasses those of Asian descent who are also Spanish speakers. Is this a complaint you’re seeing from Hispanic/Spanish speaking individuals or a personal beef?

[Melissa Louise]

58 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I don’t consider any of these difficult. However…

Getting my kid signed up for something at college, there was a “pronoun” drop-down with, like, seven choices. Stuff I have never, ever heard of. Now *that* really is ridiculous. I’ve never heard someone say they want to be called “Per” or “Hum” (interesting tangent: autocorrect has never heard of hum either and changed it to him, hah) and WTF professor is going to remember that? It’s stupid, I’m sorry. 

If someone asks for Hum pronouns, all I am going to think is that they are either incredibly immature, incredibly narcissistic, or both. 

So much luxury nonsense muddying the real need out there. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

I do?  Where did you get that?

See the question I asked below. I’ve never seen/heard a Spanish-speaker be upset at the separate categorization of language skills/ability from nationality or ‘race’.

[maize]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

They also exclude every non-European ethnicity.  Indian, Chinese, Korean, Palestinian, Kenyan, Sioux, and 100+ others are completely irrelevant.  So dumb.

So, I once encountered a drop-down ethnicity list for a medical practice that was clearly trying to be inclusive in a very haphazard way. It included what must have been the entire registered list of native American tribes individually,  a scattershot sampling of European nationalities (like, Italy and Sweden but not France or Norway) and then just Asian for that entire continent.  It was perplexing to say the least.

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, Danae said:

The benefit of the drop down menu is that the professor won’t have to remember.  It shows up on the class roster, along with the name the student prefers to be called. (Not just for gender-related name changes.  It’s very handy to know that Timothy wants to be called Tim and Emily Rose uses both names while Emily Ann just goes by Emily and Peter David Smith Jr. goes by David (prob because his dad uses “Peter.”) )

 

edit to add:  ours also lets the student record an audio file with the pronunciation of their name.  I love it.  We also have a built in names/faces quiz so people (like me) who struggle with facial recognition can practice.  

That sounds very…inclusive and helpful for all those affected.

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

It’s an ADDITIONAL designator, as you said, not the only. It encompasses those of Asian descent who are also Spanish speakers. Is this a complaint you’re seeing from Hispanic/Spanish speaking individuals or a personal beef?

You say you work in a diverse environment.  Surely that includes people who are neither "Hispanic" nor multi-generational mutt Americans, right?  Do Indians, Chinese, etc. not have an ethnicity?  My friends would beg to differ.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

You say you work in a diverse environment.  Surely that includes people who are neither "Hispanic" nor multi-generational mutt Americans, right?  Do Indians, Chinese, etc. not have an ethnicity?  My friends would beg to differ.

Yep. They all identify however they choose, whether by specific NATIONALITY or RACE (the big 5/6, whatever it is these days) and/or ETHNICITY (primary language, in the US anyway). It’s neither my role nor place to question how they choose to identify themselves.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

5 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

It's almost like they only object to specific language changes and don't really mind most of them. Wonder why that is. 

 

Because it's nonsense.

Nobody on the planet is 'in between' male and female. Even people with differences of sexual development are sexed m or f. 

Androgyny is great. It's an aesthetic.

Aesthetics don't need any particular attention. I happen to like androgyny, but it's a relatively unimportant aspect of human life. 

Face to face, I deal with people's nonsense politely, because people are all nonsensical in different ways.

If my boss starts insisting I go further than that? Nope. Sorry. Institutions embracing nonsense is not ok. It takes important energy and attention away from other things. 

 

 

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

See the question I asked below. I’ve never seen/heard a Spanish-speaker be upset at the separate categorization of language skills/ability from nationality or ‘race’.

Wow, you really do not understand the Ethnicity question nor the issue.

Lots of Hispanic people do not speak Spanish as well as I (non-Hispanic) do.

I never asked a person of Latino heritage what they thought of the Ethnicity question.  They are not the ones being excluded by it.

But since you brought that group and its race up, ... the "race" question is the one that often fails many Hispanics.  The closest race choice for many/most is "Native American," but the definition of "Native American race" often requires one to be registered or culturally associated with a North American tribe, which ....

So like I said, better not to get me started ....

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Yep. They all identify however they choose, whether by specific NATIONALITY or RACE (the big 5/6, whatever it is these days) and/or ETHNICITY (primary language, in the US anyway). It’s neither my role nor place to question how they choose to identify themselves.

Well on most forms, they are simply "not Hispanic" as far as their cultural identity goes.

[maize]

18 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It’s an ADDITIONAL designator, as you said, not the only. It encompasses those of Asian descent who are also Spanish speakers. Is this a complaint you’re seeing from Hispanic/Spanish speaking individuals or a personal beef?

Hispanic is not about being a Spanish speaker.  Here's how the OMB defines it:

It really is quite random to include only Hispanic as an ethnicity option.

Also not very meaningful in and of itself. There are people who fit within that "Hispanic " definition whose families have been residents of Texas for centuries, and people who are recent immigrants from Uruguay, and neither of them has much in common with the second generation kid with parents from Mexico. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by maize

[Dmmetler]

41 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

No. It should RECORD how the student wishes to be known/called and as Regentrude and Katilac pointed out, fortunately, many instructors do care/bother to respect their choices. It’s for the benefit of the STUDENT and any INSTRUCTOR/PROF who wishes to be more inclusive/respectful, not for you. 

 

FWIW, L's school has the legal name on legal documents, but the preferred name is what is on anything student facing and is what the professor sees unless they go into the student's account. It seems to work fine. Pronouns are also listed. 

 

Do professors make mistakes? Yeah, I'm sure they do, because the default at a women's college is GOING to be she, not he, it, they, ze, etc. But it doesn't seem to be at all a problem for students to be called what they want to be called while still having the official records show their legal name. 

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well on most forms, they are simply "not Hispanic" as far as their cultural identity goes.

In our area, Hispanic is defined by native language proficiency/Spanish speaking country of origin, much the way the feds do. Always willing to learn tho b/c know more, do better.

[Sneezyone]

16 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Because it's nonsense.

Nobody on the planet is 'in between' male and female. Even people with differences of sexual development are sexed m or f. 

Androgyny is great. It's an aesthetic.

Aesthetics don't need any particular attention. I happen to like androgyny, but it's a relatively unimportant aspect of human life. 

Face to face, I deal with people's nonsense politely, because people are all nonsensical in different ways.

If my boss starts insisting I go further than that? Nope. Sorry. Institutions embracing nonsense is not ok. It takes important energy and attention away from other things. 

 

 

Basically, you have no respect for human diversity unless it co-signs your callousness.

 

13 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well on most forms, they are simply "not Hispanic" as far as their cultural identity goes.

I haven’t seen that. Can you provide an example? Are they unable to self-identify as Columbia’s or Peruvian, or Indian, or whatever?

Edited August 3, 2023 by Sneezyone

[EKS]

2 hours ago, Ginevra said:

I think it is less harmful for kids all around to understand that most people are born with a gender that matches their chromosomes and genitalia. Much less confusing than thinking lots and lots of people are born with the wrong body; you know how kids are; once they know something is possible they start wondering if *this* is why they feel so uncomfortable. 

This a million times.

Also, no one is born with the "wrong" body.  They are born with the body they're born with.  And in normal times that would mean learning to deal with that reality.

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I haven’t seen that. Can you provide an example? 

Look at any form you have had to fill out for your kids that asks any demographics.  It's literally everywhere.  Most recent here (last Friday) was the SAT registration (College Board website).

Edited August 3, 2023 by SKL

[Sneezyone]

23 minutes ago, SKL said:

Wow, you really do not understand the Ethnicity question nor the issue.

Lots of Hispanic people do not speak Spanish as well as I (non-Hispanic) do.

I never asked a person of Latino heritage what they thought of the Ethnicity question.  They are not the ones being excluded by it.

But since you brought that group and its race up, ... the "race" question is the one that often fails many Hispanics.  The closest race choice for many/most is "Native American," but the definition of "Native American race" often requires one to be registered or culturally associated with a North American tribe, which ....

So like I said, better not to get me started ....

These categories were not created by the people they were meant to categorize. I said they’re clunky. They are. They were created by and for the benefit of whiteness, a term that has been  forced over time to include/exclude people in intentional and inconsistent ways. I’m not sure what more I’m supposed to say. These categories, like it or not, have meaning for many people today.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Look at any form you have had to fill out for your kids that asks any demographics.  It's literally everywhere.  Most recent here (last Friday) was the SAT registration (College Board website).

I’ve done that several times. My kids/family are BlackAmericans. Full stop. We were robbed of any other national/cultural identity hundreds of years ago. Where’s the gnashing of teeth that I have no other country to claim?

Edited August 3, 2023 by Sneezyone

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, maize said:

This is truly befuddling to me.

In the many years I lived in places where the standard English pronunciation of my name didn't match local linguistic patterns,  never once did it occur to me to expect let alone demand that the people around me use the pronunciation my family used at home.

I adapted quite easily to the variations on my name that flowed comfortably in the native dialects of the people around me. Their mouths, speaking in the way that was comfortable to them.

Seems perfectly reasonable and accomodatable to me.

I have over and over experienced that people who would be perfectly capable of pronouncing an unfamiliar name simply refuse to read the name carefully and figure it out. They take a quick glance and butcher spelling and pronunciation because they cannot be bothered to give the other individual the basic respect to learn their name. Often it's names that are completely phonetic but have more than two syllables. Too much work for Americans I guess.

To me this is an issue of courtesy and respect. On the first day of class, I try to pronounce every student's name to the best of my ability and ask them to correct me if I did it wrong, make a note, and henceforth use the pronunciation *they asked me to use*. I do this to show that I respect them as persons. 

It is especially problematic when it comes to names that appear, in print, to be non-white. I have a colleague from Nigeria. Her name pronounces perfectly fine in English, but it is long, and so many folks don't even bother sounding it out. It's rude.

ETA:  I have a first name name that exists both in English and my native German, and I am fine with people pronouncing it the American way. Makes life easier, and it is still my name. But that is my choice. 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by regentrude

[SKL]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I’ve done that several times. My kids/family os black. Full stop. We were robbed of any other national identity hundreds of years ago.

You have to answer the ethnicity question.  Your answer is "not Hispanic" I assume.  (Some black people are Hispanic though.)

So yeah, you and most of my friends of diverse backgrounds are excluded from having an ethnicity, at least officially.

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, SKL said:

You have to answer the ethnicity question.  Your answer is "not Hispanic" I assume.  (Some black people are Hispanic though.)

So yeah, you and most of my friends of diverse backgrounds are excluded from having an ethnicity, at least officially.

I have no ethnicity, period, other than American and, yea, some of my black friends are Hispanic/Spanish-speaking. I’ve never been ‘forced’ to answer the question. It’s not hard. I do not believe that your children are nearly as confused or fashed as you claim to be. I do believe some immigrants are confused by the awful morass created by racism in the US.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Sneezyone

[marbel]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Just curious, for those who have received emails with pronouns in the signatures, what % of those are "he/him" or "they/them" pronouns?  Because in my experience, it's been 100% "she/her."  (And the names are usually obvious feminine names, so really not necessary to tell me this is a woman.)

At my last job, we used a messaging app to communicate with each other, and we were encouraged to have a photo to make it more personal. I started to notice that some people also included pronouns, and I started paying attention to that, out of curiosity. 100% of the people who I came into contact with/saw messages from, and who had added pronouns  to their sig were white people with female names and appearances. 100% of those pronouns were "she/her." 

Just my own observation/experience. Oh, fwiw, it was a pretty large company with employees on both coasts. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by marbel
clarity, maybe

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I’ve done that several times. My kids/family are BlackAmericans. Full stop. We were robbed of any other national/cultural identity hundreds of years ago. Where’s the gnashing of teeth that I have no other country to claim?

There's a fair amount of discussion of that legitimate issue.

And when people bring it up, I assume they aren't accused of "wanting folks to abandon their identity markers" etc.

[kokotg]

The reason for the hispanic/not hispanic question is that the US government (and other people making such forms) finds it helpful to be able to identify Hispanic people and Hispanic people identify as a variety of races. (with the SAT example, the College Board runs the National Hispanic Recognition Program, for example). Maybe I'm not saying anything people don't already know...it just seemed as if there was a question of why hispanic/not hispanic is singled out, and I think the reason is that you don't run into the same issues or at least you don't run into them as frequently when you ask someone to identify as Asian or Black. Not making a value judgment about how the categories work...I mean, wasn't it impossible to indicate that you were more than one race until very recently on the census? Obviously, there are issues.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

There's a fair amount of discussion of that legitimate issue.

And when people bring it up, I assume they aren't accused of "wanting folks to abandon their identity markers" etc.

Pls point me in that direction. I’m curious to know whether what you’re referring to is people OUTSIDE that group identity trying to get those who value it to abandon it in favor of some lesser connected, shared identity.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Pls point me in that direction. I’m curious to know whether what you’re referring to is people OUTSIDE that group identity trying to get those who value it to abandon it.

It's not.  I'm 100% sure you've read at least as much on it as I have over the years.  I'm not going to go looking for cites.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

It's not.  I'm 100% sure you've read at least as much on it as I have over the years.  I'm not going to go looking for cites.

Actually, I haven’t. Despite being black for 45+ years, no one in my family or friend group has mentioned wanting to shed the Black American moniker in favor of some undefined other. It sounds like Marcus Garvey retread/fringe.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Sneezyone

[KSera]

5 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

Providing reassurance so they don't feel the need to kill themselves is unconscionable? 

I just really wish people who care about trans kids and young adults would stop saying this. It is very, very harmful.  

5 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Yes. Because most will try to kill themselves anyways. Even those who go through body modifications with affirming people supporting them still have a high suicide rate.  This is not a cure for their mental illness.

I will correct the first part of  this, because it’s not accurate to say “most” will try to kill themselves anyways (and gosh but that sounds so flip and casual 😢).  But you’re also correct that the transition does not cure this, and the only large, long-term study on this showed that those who transitioned had a higher suicide rate in the long run 😢.  We have an entirely different population now, so we have absolutely zero long term data on what will happen with this new cohort.

4 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

OK, so you think they just made these numbers up? I don't know why I'm bothering. You have your mind made up. 

 

Just be nice, people. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I honestly don’t have it  in me right now to explain all the problems and lack of validity with the Trevor project survey, but in some ways yes, they did make some of it up and most of the rest is not valid. We need better studies; we need better data.

 

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

The real world does not operate by kindergarten chant rules. Words have power. Words have impact. Words cause harm. Words damage people.

Yes.  This is why I react so strongly when people repeatedly make the assertion that kids are going to kill themselves if people don’t affirm their gender or give them hormones or whatever else.

4 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

OK, that looks like a study. So where's your objection? You realize no social survey will ever be 100% "clean." It's not chemistry research. But there are plenty of ways for survey researchers to ensure the data is valid and representative.  

Yes, but this isn’t that.  You can look at the summary papers from even major transgender organizations such as WPATH and organization such as the endocrinology society, and they all say in the end that any data to support their current position is uncertain and/or of low quality.  Contrary to  popular opinion, we really truly don’t have the data yet to say what helps this population most. We simply do not know. We are in the midst of an experiment. Like @Murphy101,  I wish to goodness that affirmation was enough to save lives.

3 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

I doubt any parent would condone their child altering their body without going through some form of counseling first. I have to think the medical establishment would require it, but like I said, I haven't been there yet. NONE of this is done lightly. 

It depends where you live. In some places that’s the case in another’s is not at all the case. I find in these conversations in general, it’s largely people who either do not have a transgender child, or they have one who has not medicalized in any way who speaks so casually in favor of transition being an easy fix.  If this was all just pronouns and names, it would be a no-brainer. It’s easy to be a strong ally when that’s all it requires. Medicalization is no joke. 

 

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Just curious, for those who have received emails with pronouns in the signatures, what % of those are "he/him" or "they/them" pronouns?  Because in my experience, it's been 100% "she/her."  (And the names are usually obvious feminine names, so really not necessary to tell me this is a woman.)

I get all of them. 

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Your expectations are too low. If people worldwide can pronounce Djokovic, they can pronounce your name. This is basic, common courtesy. You deserved better. I’m sorry you didn’t receive it.

Not to be argumentative, but human language development begins altering what sounds babies are capable of differentiating and producing starting in infancy. Babies raised around different languages will end up with a different set of sounds they can distinguish and produce. I have a name that is just simply not going to be possible for the majority of people in the world to pronounce it the way it is it’s pronounced, unless perhaps they had specific speech therapy training to help them learn to make the sounds that are not part of their own language. As such, it’s totally normal to me to hear it pronounced in a variety of ways depending on where the speaker is from. Now, there are lots of American-raised English speakers who are just lazy and don’t pay attention and say it wrong. No one should ever assign a different name to someone, and should do their very best to pronounce the name as accurately as possible, but it’s just not true that anyone who tries can’t pronounce someone’s name accurately.

Edited August 3, 2023 by KSera
Clarification

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

I just really wish people who care about trans kids and young adults would stop saying this. It is very, very harmful.  

I will correct the first part of  this, because it’s not accurate to say “most” will try to kill themselves anyways (and gosh but that sounds so flip and casual 😢).  But you’re also correct that the transition does not cure this, and the only large, long-term study on this showed that those who transitioned had a higher suicide rate in the long run 😢.  We have an entirely different population now, so we have absolutely zero long term data on what will happen with this new cohort.

I honestly don’t have it  in me right now to explain all the problems and lack of validity with the Trevor project survey, but in some ways yes, they did make some of it up and most of the rest is not valid. We need better studies; we need better data.

 

Yes.  This is why I react so strongly when people repeatedly make the assertion that kids are going to kill themselves if people don’t affirm their gender or give them hormones or whatever else.

Yes, but this isn’t that.  You can look at the summary papers from even major transgender organizations such as WPATH and organization such as the endocrinology society, and they all say in the end that any data to support their current position is uncertain and/or of low quality.  Contrary to  popular opinion, we really truly don’t have the data yet to say what helps this population most. We simply do not know. We are in the midst of an experiment. Like @Murphy101,  I wish to goodness that affirmation was enough to save lives.

It depends where you live. In some places that’s the case in another’s is not at all the case. I find in these conversations in general, it’s largely people who either do not have a transgender child, or they have one who has not medicalized in any way who speaks so casually in favor of transition being an easy fix.  If this was all just pronouns and names, it would be a no-brainer. It’s easy to be a strong ally when that’s all it requires. Medicalization is no joke. 

 

I get all of them. 

Not to be argumentative, but human language development begins altering what sounds babies are capable of differentiating and producing starting in infancy. Babies raised around different languages will end up with a different set of sounds they can distinguish and produce. I have a name that is just simply not going to be possible for the majority of people in the world to pronounce it the way it is it’s pronounced, unless perhaps they had specific speech therapy training to help them learn to make the sounds that are not part of their own language. As such, it’s totally normal to me to hear it pronounced in a variety of ways depending on where the speaker is from. Now, there are lots of American speakers who are just lazy and don’t pay attention and say it wrong. No one should ever assign a different name to someone, and should do their very best to pronounce the name as accurately as possible, but it’s just not true that anyone who tries can’t pronounce someone’s name accurately.

There will ALWAYS be exceptions but that is not, and will never be, a rule or guidepost for appropriate workplace behavior and does not excuse the unwillingness to even TRY.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Sneezyone

[kokotg]

Oh! Here's a really interesting history from NPR's Code Switch about the hispanic/not hispanic question on the census: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/06/16/321819185/on-the-census-who-checks-hispanic-who-checks-white-and-why