Question about diversity/inclusion language

[Sneezyone]

I just want to return to the notion that this ISN’T just about pronouns and LGBTQIA+ people, no matter how hard those desperately seeking a featured spot on AITA want to make it so.

Inclusive/universal language is an attempt, however flawed, to include. Whether or not your goal is to exclude, make children  uncomfortable, or verbally beat adults in the workplace over the head with disdain, you can always exercise your authoriTAY and call things whatever you want. Just don’t be surprised if you are doing it from the comfort of your own kitchen table, sans paycheck. Ultimately, the impact of your choices will win out over your intent.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Ginevra]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

Remarkably, you don't have to "fit in" with gender stereotypes to be a male or female.  I know this as a person who had significant gender dysphoria as a child, who still does to some extent, and who presents as gender nonconforming now.  In fact I was just misgendered yesterday.  

I am beyond grateful that the way this was dealt with in the 1970s was to simply let me be who I was while continually reinforcing the unyielding reality that I was, indeed, female.  What we are doing to gender dysphoric and gender nonconforming youth today is unconscionable. 

It’s this. The current societal narrative is restricting gender norms more tightly than ever. If you’re a girl who likes Comic-Con and Algebra, then , well, obviously you’re really a boy inside and now we have to hormonally and surgically alter your body and train grandpa to call you “him”. It’s a step backwards for women, particularly, and it’s restrictive for males who don’t love football, beer and grabbing women by the…

[OH_Homeschooler]

33 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

It’s this. The current societal narrative is restricting gender norms more tightly than ever. If you’re a girl who likes Comic-Con and Algebra, then , well, obviously you’re really a boy inside and now we have to hormonally and surgically alter your body and train grandpa to call you “him”. It’s a step backwards for women, particularly, and it’s restrictive for males who don’t love football, beer and grabbing women by the…

No, this is utterly ridiculous. This is not reality. 

My teen daughter is very into Minecraft, eSports, and is excellent at math. But she fully identifies as a girl. If she told me SHE felt like a boy, I would accept that. I would seek counseling because that's a big thing to work through. NOT to get her to become a girl again, but to help her achieve HER best life. 

My nonbinary child mostly dresses like pretty much any kid, leans masculine, but got a dress for the new school year. This doesn't mean they suddenly identify as a girl again. But actually, they feel they have MORE choices now than when they were a girl. They have no desire to alter their body at this time. But they have a counselor to discuss these things with. No indoctrination or encouragement to lean one way or another, just a neutral place to discuss their feelings.

I doubt any parent would condone their child altering their body without going through some form of counseling first. I have to think the medical establishment would require it, but like I said, I haven't been there yet. NONE of this is done lightly. 

I really don't get your point about how this is affecting men. If you're a man, be a man. Do man things. Or be a man who does women things. All of this so-called restriction is just in your little made up scenario. All people are free to do all things now. 

Don't y'all think encouraging children to live as their sex assigned at birth (if they don't identify with that) could possibly lead to a stronger urge to change things quickly? What do you really think you're accomplishing by denying their reality?

Edited August 2, 2023 by OH_Homeschooler

[katilac]

5 hours ago, maize said:

Being respectful to the people in front of you can include not taking offense where offense is not intended, making allowance for human brains being imperfect, and respecting that the words that come out of another person's mouth are not your personal property.

Respect only works when it is extended in all directions.

No argument with the bolded, but I can say that I've personally never experienced or observed an angry response to being accidentally misgendered, or called by the wrong name. 

Two things can be true at once.

People should make their very best efforts to call others by their chosen names and pronouns. 

People should make allowances when someone else makes their best effort, yet still makes a mistake. 

2 hours ago, maize said:

 

So yeah, someone teaching phonics to immigrant kids can very reasonably say "I'm tapped put with the very important and needed efforts I am already making" and we can empathize and understand that we don't need to try to heap more straws on that camel's back. We can say "but it's just a straw" but isn't that the point of the proverb? Those straws add up.

Joaquin, your name is too hard to pronounce. I'm tapped out, so you're going to be Joe in phonics class. 

Calling somebody by the right name, pronounced correctly, and using their preferred pronouns is a very low bar. Very. 

Of course people may make mistakes occasionally, but it's not that hard to get it right most of the time. Make a note, you don't even have to remember! 

Joaquin, "Wah-keem," prefers no nicknames 

Devin, "Deh-vin," he/him/his 

Katrina, prefers "Katy," they/them 

Does anyone genuinely consider that difficult? 

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

This is actually a very good example for awareness how small language changes can create a more inclusive atmosphere. Many schools no longer call events  " muffins with mom" or "donuts with dad" but instead create events that are inclusive for all children's caregiving adults and take into account the many different kinds of families. So a kid without a dad, or one raised by grandparents,  feels included. They can bring "the grownups that take care of them".

Just because they didn't in the past doesn't seem a great reason to maintain the old language.

Absolutely this. In addition, every teacher I know is careful to not only reference mom and dad in the classroom. They'll say have one of the grown-ups who take care of you sign this paper, you can invite your grownups to Math Night, you can bring your mom or your grandpa or any one of the grown-ups that take care of you. 

I don't know any teacher who has had much trouble adjusting to this.  

1 hour ago, maize said:

 Why would one direction of trying be perceived as more morally desirable than the other?

Because people get to choose what you call them. 

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

Try telling that to my 11 year old child. It may not matter to you, but it matters to a lot of people. 

Again.

MY workdays are full of helping children with greater problems than their gender identity.

I'd call your 11-year-old 'they' at work. Still doesn't mean I'm going to start my staff presentation next week with a pronoun circle. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, livetoread said:

Has anyone in the discussion been frequently yelled at or shamed for inadvertently using the wrong pronoun? I know in my own experience which involves a fair number (more than five, less than ten) of trans kids who are friends with my NB kid, plus overall interacting in the world, I have never experienced that. I don't run with trans activists, and I know activists of any movement can be intense, but my day to day interactions with trans/NB people isn't like that. I try to get pronouns right, they know I'm trying, I mess up and either catch myself or I don't, and they let it slide when I don't. I mean I'm bound to encounter a jerk eventually, but really, I'm kind of lost as to where all these people are who are lighting into folks who are trying.

Nah, my tw out-law is chill.

It's flipping allies doing all the language policing and freaking out because someone might have priorities that don't center pronouns. 

Even my enbie who lived here for a while when homeless was reasonably chill, though that might have been because it's hard to go around shouting terf at someone when they are feeding, housing and clothing you, a stranger, out of the goodness of their heart.

 

 

[OH_Homeschooler]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Again.

MY workdays are full of helping children with greater problems than their gender identity.

I'd call your 11-year-old 'they' at work. Still doesn't mean I'm going to start my staff presentation next week with a pronoun circle. 

 

 

Never asked you to do a pronoun circle. And as someone else pointed out, that's actually not encouraged. 

I don't know why all of the people disagreeing with me think this is my child's only problem. 

First, it's not actually a problem. As I responded to someone else, two of my children were sexually abused by their father. As a result, my oldest child has been fighting depression, anxiety, and suicidality for half her life. She has been hospitalized for suicidality um, 7 times? That's a problem. 

My child being non-binary is like a blip on the radar compared to that. It's not a problem. It's just part of who they are. They are funny, smart, love nature, struggle with math. 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by OH_Homeschooler

[katilac]

37 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

It’s this. The current societal narrative is restricting gender norms more tightly than ever. If you’re a girl who likes Comic-Con and Algebra, then , well, obviously you’re really a boy inside and now we have to hormonally and surgically alter your body and train grandpa to call you “him”. It’s a step backwards for women, particularly, and it’s restrictive for males who don’t love football, beer and grabbing women by the…

There are two different facets to consider. 

One is on a societal level. There can be disagreement about best practices, and there can be disagreement about gender norms and what they mean. I don't think any major societal change occurs without problems and changing perceptions along the way. That disagreement doesn't negate the need for treatment or the existence of people who need treatment. I don't have enough background and experience to engage in an in-depth discussion at the societal level, so I try to leave it to the people who do have that background and experience, along with the people most directly concerned. 

Then you have the personal level, which is very simple to me: I call people what they ask to be called.  

[OH_Homeschooler]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Nah, my tw out-law is chill.

It's flipping allies doing all the language policing and freaking out because someone might have priorities that don't center pronouns. 

Even my enbie who lived here for a while when homeless was reasonably chill, though that might have been because it's hard to go around shouting terf at someone when they are feeding, housing and clothing you, a stranger, out of the goodness of their heart.

 

 

I assure you, the vast majority of enbies are NOT doing any of that. Read through all the responses on this thread. That just doesn't happen. At most, they provide a polite correction. Often, they leave it alone. They are actually too freaking scared of being harmed to speak up for themselves. 

If you really think the only reason this person didn't shout TERF at you is because you were feeding them, then I think I'm really starting to understand your worldview. It's actually very sad. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by OH_Homeschooler

[Melissa Louise]

3 hours ago, Amira said:

I don’t disagree, but I also think that others’ mistakes will always been seen in context of a person’s lived experience.

My daughter is trans.  She knows that one of her grandfathers will never call her by her real name because he’s certain that he knows she’s male. Some people just don’t talk to her anymore because they’re not comfortable with her name and pronouns.  Both are isolating in different ways. She also knows that my mom is old and slips sometimes and refers to her by the wrong name or pronouns even though my mom tries really hard and acknowledges and tries again when she makes a mistake. There’s a huge difference between what my mom does and what her grandfather does, of course.  

But when my daughter has to deal with people like her grandfather who explicitly deny who she is, or with other people who ignore who she is, it wears her down.  And even though she knows and gives grace to my mom when she makes a mistake, because she knows my mom is trying, it’s still hard because there are so many other people who aren’t trying. 

If everyone were in the category of trying but sometimes making mistakes, I think it would be easier to give grace for mistakes.  But they’re not, so I can’t place all the burden on my daughter to be nice to others when they accidentally misgender her when, as a society, many people are intentionally misgendering her. 

The discussion here will have probably moved on by the time I get this posted and others may have made the same point more eloquently, but I wanted to make sure this came up.

I know my daughter's partner is male. 

I still call her by her chosen name and as you may notice, use her chosen pronouns.

I also treat her like any other member of the family,

I don't have to literally believe she is female to treat her decently, and I don't have to centre her identity in every last thing I do at work, because she is old enough and wise enough to know people differ in belief, and differ in choice of activism, and differ in the way they choose to engage in the world. 

If she isn't on my back about introducing pronoun rituals at work, I reckon the rest of you can hop off.

[katilac]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

 it's hard to go around shouting terf at someone  

I do very much dislike the way some people and organizations use that slur against those that disagree with them. 

I think a baseline for civil discourse is that people shouldn't use slurs, period. 

[Melissa Louise]

14 minutes ago, katilac said:

No argument with the bolded, but I can say that I've personally never experienced or observed an angry response to being accidentally misgendered, or called by the wrong name. 

Two things can be true at once.

People should make their very best efforts to call others by their chosen names and pronouns. 

People should make allowances when someone else makes their best effort, yet still makes a mistake. 

Joaquin, your name is too hard to pronounce. I'm tapped out, so you're going to be Joe in phonics class. 

Calling somebody by the right name, pronounced correctly, and using their preferred pronouns is a very low bar. Very. 

Of course people may make mistakes occasionally, but it's not that hard to get it right most of the time. Make a note, you don't even have to remember! 

Joaquin, "Wah-keem," prefers no nicknames 

Devin, "Deh-vin," he/him/his 

Katrina, prefers "Katy," they/them 

Does anyone genuinely consider that difficult? 

Absolutely this. In addition, every teacher I know is careful to not only reference mom and dad in the classroom. They'll say have one of the grown-ups who take care of you sign this paper, you can invite your grownups to Math Night, you can bring your mom or your grandpa or any one of the grown-ups that take care of you. 

I don't know any teacher who has had much trouble adjusting to this.  

Because people get to choose what you call them. 

This is a bad comparison.

I work with a diverse set of kids. I work hard to make sure I never mispronounce, shorten or anglicise a name.

Me not using my freaking pronouns is nothing like disrespecting a child by not bothering with their name.

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, katilac said:

I do very much dislike the way some people and organizations use that slur against those that disagree with them. 

I think a baseline for civil discourse is that people shouldn't use slurs, period. 

The greater point was, if the tw in my life isn't on the fainting couch because I haven't transformed my workplace into a haven for enbies, of whom we currently have none, then I don't think anybody else needs to either. 

[katilac]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

This is a bad comparison.

I work with a diverse set of kids. I work hard to make sure I never mispronounce, shorten or anglicise a name.

Me not using my freaking pronouns is nothing like disrespecting a child by not bothering with their name.

 

I don't understand who's telling you not to use your pronouns? 

Are why it's harder to remember he/him than the pronunciation of a complex name? 

[Melissa Louise]

6 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

I assure you, the vast majority of enbies are NOT doing any of that. Read through all the responses on this thread. That just doesn't happen. At most, they provide a polite correction. Often, they leave it alone. They are actually too freaking scared of being harmed to speak up for themselves. 

If you really think the only reason this person didn't shout TERF at you is because you were feeding them, then I think I'm really starting to understand your worldview. It's actually very sad. 

Ah, can't be bothered.

Y'all really need to think about how enby kids aren't always at the top of the disadvantage heap, and you need to stop thinking that getting people to play your preferred language games in the workplace is a good way to go about your PR>

 

[OH_Homeschooler]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

The greater point was, if the tw in my life isn't on the fainting couch because I haven't transformed my workplace into a haven for enbies, of whom we currently have none, then I don't think anybody else needs to either. 

No, I think the greater point is that NO ONE IS ASKING YOU TO DO THAT. If someone says they are a they, just go with it, call them they. You can still be a her, I promise, you don't have to announce that you're a her. If you think that's creating a haven, again, very sad. 

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Nah, my tw out-law is chill.

It's flipping allies doing all the language policing and freaking out because someone might have priorities that don't center pronouns. 

Even my enbie who lived here for a while when homeless was reasonably chill, though that might have been because it's hard to go around shouting terf at someone when they are feeding, housing and clothing you, a stranger, out of the goodness of their heart.

 

 

For the love…

You are not an ally. You’ve declared yourself one, many times, but your interests are narrow and parochial, which is fine!! Stubbornly clinging to a  definition of intersectionality that only intersects womanhood and class and subsumes everything else, is the exact opposite of a Bell Hooks approach to feminism and certainly not an intersectional one.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Ah, can't be bothered.

Y'all really need to think about how enby kids aren't always at the top of the disadvantage heap, and you need to stop thinking that getting people to play your preferred language games in the workplace is a good way to go about your PR>

 

I thought my post perfectly illustrated why I don't think enby kids are at the top of the disadvantage heap. I don't think it's a disadvantage. 

So you can't be bothered...to read? 

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, katilac said:

I don't understand who's telling you not to use your pronouns? 

Are why it's harder to remember he/him than the pronunciation of a complex name? 

OH MY GOD>

Does anyone read?

I would use preferred name and pronouns at work as I said on page 1.

I do not, myself, take part in pronoun circles, or adopt a world view FOR MYSELF that plays those language games.

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

No, I think the greater point is that NO ONE IS ASKING YOU TO DO THAT. If someone says they are a they, just go with it, call them they. You can still be a her, I promise, you don't have to announce that you're a her. If you think that's creating a haven, again, very sad. 

WTF?

You guys have a nice straw man going on in your head here.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

OH MY GOD>

Does anyone read?

I would use preferred name and pronouns at work as I said on page 1.

I do not, myself, take part in pronoun circles, or adopt a world view FOR MYSELF that plays those language games.

Then I don't understand why you're reacting this way. We are not asking for more than this. Maybe you're just taking it all a bit too personally. Or creating some crazy made up scenarios in your head. 

[Ginevra]

10 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

No, this is utterly ridiculous. This is not reality. 

My teen daughter is very into Minecraft, eSports, and is excellent at math. But she fully identifies as a girl. If she told me SHE felt like a boy, I would accept that. I would seek counseling because that's a big thing to work through. NOT to get her to become a girl again, but to help her achieve HER best life. 

My nonbinary child mostly dresses like pretty much any kid, leans masculine, but got a dress for the new school year. This doesn't mean they suddenly identify as a girl again. But actually, they feel they have MORE choices now than when they were a girl. They have no desire to alter their body at this time. But they have a counselor to discuss these things with. No indoctrination or encouragement to lean one way or another, just a neutral place to discuss their feelings.

I doubt any parent would condone their child altering their body without going through some form of counseling first. I have to think the medical establishment would require it, but like I said, I haven't been there yet. NONE of this is done lightly. 

I really don't get your point about how this is affecting men. If you're a man, be a man. Do man things. Or be a man who does women things. All of this so-called restriction is just in your little made up scenario. All people are free to do all things now. 

Don't y'all think encouraging children to live as their sex assigned at birth (if they don't identify with that) could possibly lead to a stronger urge to change things quickly? What do you really think you're accomplishing by denying their reality?

Is it utterly ridiculous? Or is the thing that is ridiculous the social mandate to pretend that most people are not the gender that goes with their chromosomes and external genitalia? It’s right there as an assumption in the phrase “sex assigned at birth”. I have been thinking about that phrase a lot recently. Why is this the phrase “we” use now? When a pregnant woman goes to her 20-week appointment and wants to know the baby’s sex, does the doctor say, “according to the sonogram, I predict that this baby will be assigned ‘boy’ at birth, given that there is a p*nis visible on the sono”? When a pregnant mom does a gender reveal party, is the cake going to spill out green m&ms that say, “Not sure until the sex is assigned at birth”? Even my YA daughter said she thinks it’s kind of funny that, in a world where we say we’re trying to break down gender stereotypes, people do gender reveals and baby showers with all the things present. 
 

I think it is less harmful for kids all around to understand that most people are born with a gender that matches their chromosomes and genitalia. Much less confusing than thinking lots and lots of people are born with the wrong body; you know how kids are; once they know something is possible they start wondering if *this* is why they feel so uncomfortable. 
 

Growing up is uncomfortable; it always and forever has been. I grew up with people who gravitated towards things more typical of the opposite gender but they grew into adult versions of the same gender they always were. They became men who like to cross-stitch or women who dig small engine repair; in a couple of cases, gay, but in no cases deciding they needed to change all the plumbing and their pronouns and name. Ever read Fried Green Tomatoes? There is a character that would, if written now, be written as a Trans character. But at the time, she was just a woman who wore overalls and hated dresses and who fell in love with another woman. 

[OH_Homeschooler]

5 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

Is it utterly ridiculous?

Yes, I already said that. I live in the real world though. 

Quote

Or is the thing that is ridiculous the social mandate to pretend that most people are not the gender that goes with their chromosomes and external genitalia? 

Yeah, this just isn't a thing. We're talking about a small but not insignificant minority of people. Certainly not "most people." The norm is overwhelmingly that people feel they are the gender that goes with their chromosomes and external genitalia. 

Quote

Ever read Fried Green Tomatoes? There is a character that would, if written now, be written as a Trans character. But at the time, she was just a woman who wore overalls and hated dresses and who fell in love with another woman. 

Haha, yes I actually did read it but remember the movie more clearly. There are women, in this very day and age, who identify as women that date women but dress like men. They are not necessarily trans. I think you are the one putting limits on gender.   

Edited August 2, 2023 by OH_Homeschooler

[Melissa Louise]

Lol, I'm off to work now.

I give less of an f about enbie inclusion than I did before this thread, so well done, allies.

Nevertheless, if an enby comes up to me while I'm, you know, talking an autistic kid down from self-harm, I'll treat them with exactly the same respect as the other kids get. 

 

[Ginevra]

16 minutes ago, katilac said:

Then you have the personal level, which is very simple to me: I call people what they ask to be called.  

As do I. I have a transgender family member. On the personal level, of course I’m not going to add to this person’s distress by using the old name or pronouns. 
 

But on a societal level, I think the current way all this is going down (at least where I live) is a huge net negative. It’s creating a health crisis for many young people who will be infertile, may not be s€xually functional and may have god-knows-what negative physical and mental outcomes from being on powerful drugs long term and having serious surgeries at young ages. 

[freesia]

41 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

No, this is utterly ridiculous. This is not reality. 

My teen daughter is very into Minecraft, eSports, and is excellent at math. But she fully identifies as a girl. If she told me SHE felt like a boy, I would accept that. I would seek counseling because that's a big thing to work through. NOT to get her to become a girl again, but to help her achieve HER best life. 

My nonbinary child mostly dresses like pretty much any kid, leans masculine, but got a dress for the new school year. This doesn't mean they suddenly identify as a girl again. But actually, they feel they have MORE choices now than when they were a girl. They have no desire to alter their body at this time. But they have a counselor to discuss these things with. No indoctrination or encouragement to lean one way or another, just a neutral place to discuss their feelings.

I doubt any parent would condone their child altering their body without going through some form of counseling first. I have to think the medical establishment would require it, but like I said, I haven't been there yet. NONE of this is done lightly. 

I really don't get your point about how this is affecting men. If you're a man, be a man. Do man things. Or be a man who does women things. All of this so-called restriction is just in your little made up scenario. All people are free to do all things now. 

Don't y'all think encouraging children to live as their sex assigned at birth (if they don't identify with that) could possibly lead to a stronger urge to change things quickly? What do you really think you're accomplishing by denying their reality?

It’s not ridiculous. My dd has experienced two places ( different states) where peers have refused to believe she wasnt non-binary because of how she dressed and her interests. Even when she was assertive and told them that no, she was a strong girl who liked xyz not non-binary and not trans, in both places peers repeatedly found reasons to continue to tell her things like—you like that, see you are trans or non-binary repeatedly. The pressure 100% is happening. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by freesia
Clarification

[OH_Homeschooler]

1 minute ago, freesia said:

It’s not ridiculous. My dd has experienced two places ( different states) where peers have refused to believe she wasnt non-binary because of how she dressed and her interests. Even when she was assertive and told them that no, she was a strong girl who liked xyz not non-binary and not trans, in both places peers repeatedly found reasons to tell her that you like that, see you are trans or non-binary. The pressure 100% is happening. 

Kids can be dumb. They can be bullies. It's not right for them to insist someone is non-binary when they say they are not.

But Ginevra seems to think people in authority are all forcing tomboys to become boys, and that's simply not the case. 

[maize]

46 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

Because people get to choose what you call them. 

No, actually.

The words that come out of my mouth are under my control,  not that of someone else. Thst's pretty base level personal autonomy.

People can absolutely choose how to introduce themselves,  can tell other what they prefer to be called.

But none of us chooses the actions of another.

Basic locus of control.

Edited August 2, 2023 by maize

[SKL]

It absolutely does happen in middle / high school that kids are told to doubt their "gender" if they are not stereotypically girly or masculine.  The % of kids in that age group who think they are LGBT+ at the moment is much, much higher than reality.  And that has not historically been the case.  It's because of messages kids are getting from the internet and from some "woke" adults.

One of mine explored this for a while.  During that time, I talked to her about the (much older) extended family and how they loved her and always would, but they wouldn't know what to do with the info that she was ___, and there was no reason to go there until she was older.  She understood that fine.  If she'd been one of the tiny % of people who are truly trans, we'd figure out the family dynamics.  (Probably still wouldn't go there with my elderly parents who won't be with us long.  No point.)

We value extended family relationships more than we value the ability to demand to be called XYZ.  Ours is a loving family though.  If I had a parent who could write off my kid over such a thing ... or really over anything ... I might actually welcome an excuse to piss them off enough to get them out of my life.  But I don't think that's the case in most families.

It's true, our kids are still our kids, even if we discover that some small part of them is different than we thought.  So why make it something to fight or fret over?  Granny is granny.  Granny says words we don't say, refuses to come out of the house, is mostly blind and deaf, is addicted to Solitaire, and has opinions of her own.  That's Granny.  She gave birth to 6 kids and spent the rest of her life caring, providing, worrying, praying for them and theirs.  She's the only granny we have, and we're not gonna start fusses over things that don't even change who we are.

[Ginevra]

Adding re: announcing your own pronouns 

A lot of people have this in their signature blocks where I work. In the large majority of cases, it seems stupid. If you have someone whose script signature says “Victoria J. Martinez”, it’s really very safe to assume they are “she/her”. I don’t understand the need to tag that on. It looks like virtue signaling. 
 

But for sure, if someone signs their name “Jamie Metzler” and then says (he/him) afterwards (or even “they/them”, which I have not seen but I’m sure it exists), then by golly, sure; I’ll call them by whatever they indicated. It is going to be hard to remember, though, if Jaimie calls on the phone and sounds female, because = brain, like @maize said. 
 

I’m married to a man who has a name that has been given much more often to girls than boys since the sixties. It does play into my view that being misgendered is just not that big a deal. Hell, I have been told that it was assumed I was a lesbian because they only ever saw “two women’s” names on the parent roster. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I have a laugh about the error and move on. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

Adding re: announcing your own pronouns 

A lot of people have this in their signature blocks where I work. In the large majority of cases, it seems stupid. If you have someone whose script signature says “Victoria J. Martinez”, it’s really very safe to assume they are “she/her”. I don’t understand the need to tag that on. It looks like virtue signaling. 
 

But for sure, if someone signs their name “Jamie Metzler” and then says (he/him) afterwards (or even “they/them”, which I have not seen but I’m sure it exists), then by golly, sure; I’ll call them by whatever they indicated. It is going to be hard to remember, though, if Jaimie calls on the phone and sounds female, because = brain, like @maize said. 
 

I’m married to a man who has a name that has been given much more often to girls than boys since the sixties. It does play into my view that being misgendered is just not that big a deal. Hell, I have been told that it was assumed I was a lesbian because they only ever saw “two women’s” names on the parent roster. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I have a laugh about the error and move on. 

I have had NUMEROUS employees, including trans employees, express relief and appreciation at indicators of welcome as simple as a rainbow sticker on my work badge. *THEY* tell me it puts them at ease even tho I happily identify as a heterosexual woman. I trust what they say. Perhaps they don’t feel comfy sharing those thoughts with you?

Edited August 2, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Ginevra]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I have had NUMEROUS employees, including trans employees express relief and appreciation at indicators of welcome as simple as a rainbow sticker on my work badge. *THEY* tell me it puts them at ease. 

A rainbow sticker is fine. That is not the same as putting pronouns in your sig block when it’s perfectly obvious that you are what people expect you to be. It’s silly for John Williams to have to announce he’s “he him”. And it’s dumb for Felicia Andrew’s to announce she’s “she/her”. Either is welcome to wear a rainbow for support; I have no issue with that. 

[SKL]

Just curious, for those who have received emails with pronouns in the signatures, what % of those are "he/him" or "they/them" pronouns?  Because in my experience, it's been 100% "she/her."  (And the names are usually obvious feminine names, so really not necessary to tell me this is a woman.)

[Sneezyone]

10 minutes ago, maize said:

No, actually.

The words that come out of my mouth are under my control,  not that of someone else. Thst's pretty base level personal autonomy.

People can absolutely choose how to introduce themselves,  can tell other what they prefer to be called.

But none of us chooses the actions of another.

Basic locus of control.

Employers can also choose to say/enforce how they want their employees to treat each other and those they serve. Corporations are people.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

A rainbow sticker is fine. That is not the same as putting pronouns in your sig block when it’s perfectly obvious that you are what people expect you to be. It’s silly for John Williams to have to announce he’s “he him”. And it’s dumb for Felicia Andrew’s to announce she’s “she/her”. Either is welcome to wear a rainbow for support; I have no issue with that. 

It’s exactly the same thing for those inside and outside the organization and can’t see you. If it’s a ‘signal’ it’s one of welcome and acceptance, which, yeah, is a virtue we should all want to put out.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Amira]

26 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I know my daughter's partner is male. 

I still call her by her chosen name and as you may notice, use her chosen pronouns.

I also treat her like any other member of the family,

I don't have to literally believe she is female to treat her decently, and I don't have to centre her identity in every last thing I do at work, because she is old enough and wise enough to know people differ in belief, and differ in choice of activism, and differ in the way they choose to engage in the world. 

If she isn't on my back about introducing pronoun rituals at work, I reckon the rest of you can hop off.

Several people seem to think that I am advocating for certain beliefs from my daughter’s grandfather, or from anyone else.  Instead, we told all of our family members that they can think whatever they want about my daughter being trans, but to please use her preferred name and pronouns.  We told them that we hoped they would still want to be around our daughter.  That’s it. They don’t need to fly pride flags or call themselves an ally or change their beliefs.  They don’t have to accept her decision as right. They get to control whether they call my daughter by her name or if they want to use a different name.  We just hope they’ll still love her.   (Grandfather has not been interested in using her name and pronouns or interacting with her at all anymore.)

[Ginevra]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

It’s exactly the same thing for those inside and outside the organization and can’t see you.

What do you mean? People put all sorts of things in their sigs to demonstrate themselves to those who never see them IRL. I see a rainbow band often. It doesn’t have to be relegated just to the in-person presentation. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Ginevra said:

What do you mean? People put all sorts of things in their sigs to demonstrate themselves to those who never see them IRL. I see a rainbow band often. It doesn’t have to be relegated just to the in-person presentation. 

People do not put all sorts of things in their sigs in our org. There are allowable and disallowed things. Pronouns are allowed but optional. If it signals anything, it’s an indication of inclusion for the patrons we serve and interact with electronically.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Sneezyone

[katilac]

15 minutes ago, maize said:

No, actually.

The words that come out of my mouth are under my control,  not that of someone else. Thst's pretty base level personal autonomy.

People can absolutely choose how to introduce themselves,  can tell other what they prefer to be called.

But none of us chooses the actions of another.

Basic locus of control.

In polite company, people get to choose what you call them. 

[Ginevra]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

People do not put all sorts of things in their sigs in our org. There are allowable and disallowed things. Pronouns are allowed but optional. If it signals anything, it’s an indication of inclusion for the patrons we serve and interact with electronically.

Are rainbow bands allowed in your org? They are where I am. So are pronouns, but some use it, some don’t. If someone is in a particular club, they can rep the club in their sig. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Ginevra said:

Are rainbow bands allowed in your org? They are where I am. So are pronouns, but some use it, some don’t. If someone is in a particular club, they can rep the club in their sig. 

No one has ever requested to wear a rainbow band, to my knowledge, but I would suspect no. Clubs, fraternal organizations, no.

[maize]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

 

Joaquin, your name is too hard to pronounce. I'm tapped out, so you're going to be Joe in phonics class. 

 

This is truly befuddling to me.

In the many years I lived in places where the standard English pronunciation of my name didn't match local linguistic patterns,  never once did it occur to me to expect let alone demand that the people around me use the pronunciation my family used at home.

I adapted quite easily to the variations on my name that flowed comfortably in the native dialects of the people around me. Their mouths, speaking in the way that was comfortable to them.

Seems perfectly reasonable and accomodatable to me.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, maize said:

This is truly befuddling to me.

In the many years I lived in places where the standard English pronunciation of my name didn't match local linguistic patterns,  never once did it occur to me to expect let alone demand that the people around me use the pronunciation my family used at home.

I adapted quite easily to the variations on my name that flowed comfortably in the native dialects of the people around me. Their mouths, speaking in the way that was comfortable to them.

Seems perfectly reasonable and accomodatable to me.

Your expectations are too low. If people worldwide can pronounce Djokovic, they can pronounce your name. This is basic, common courtesy. You deserved better. I’m sorry you didn’t receive it.

[Ginevra]

25 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

Kids can be dumb. They can be bullies. It's not right for them to insist someone is non-binary when they say they are not.

But Ginevra seems to think people in authority are all forcing tomboys to become boys, and that's simply not the case. 

This is not what I said. It’s that the powers that be have decided to do this social experiment in which we pretend that there’s a great likelihood that you are not the sex you appear to be when you exit the womb with a p*nis or a v@gina. Kids glom on to it, because kids forever and always have categorized people and tried to figure out their identity. So now, young people think if you like _____, you’re really a boy/girl/neither inside. And feminism is erased as women who love science and pants are influenced to believe that’s because they’re really male inside. 

[Clarita]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

Just curious, for those who have received emails with pronouns in the signatures, what % of those are "he/him" or "they/them" pronouns?

I see all three. I think some corporations for their client facing employees either require it or their sales people just rather do that as an added measure to have clients feel more comfortable. So I see he/him and she/her as often as they are gendered. The occasional they/them (I did see some other ones in the early days too).

[Ginevra]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

No one has ever requested to wear a rainbow band, to my knowledge, but I would suspect no. Clubs, fraternal organizations, no.

Interesting. (By band I meant an electronic ribbon/banner on the digital sig. But it’s whatever.) 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Ginevra said:

Interesting. (By band I meant an electronic ribbon/banner on the digital sig. But it’s whatever.) 

That wouldn’t be allowed here either. There’s a signature template and approved modifications that employees are asked to use.

[maize]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Your expectations are too low. If people worldwide can pronounce Djokovic, they can pronounce your name. This is basic, common courtesy. You deserved better. I’m sorry you didn’t receive it.

??? Why???

Inserting an English pronunciation of my name into a non-English phonetic system is all kinds of awkward, and actually most speakers of other languages literally cannot form an American rhotic "r" comfortably or competently. That's a speech sound that takes an awful lot of practice.

Nope, there was zero call for me to either try to impose that on anyone or to feel somehow slighted by their failure to attempt it.

[Amira]

1 minute ago, maize said:

This is truly befuddling to me.

In the many years I lived in places where the standard English pronunciation of my name didn't match local linguistic patterns,  never once did it occur to me to expect let alone demand that the people around me use the pronunciation my family used at home.

I adapted quite easily to the variations on my name that flowed comfortably in the native dialects of the people around me. Their mouths, speaking in the way that was comfortable to them.

Seems perfectly reasonable and accomodatable to me.

I am also not someone who is bothered by people mispronouncing or misspelling my name.  Both have happened many times.  But I don’t think that people who are bothered by it are unreasonable. It’s a different way of looking at things that isn’t wrong. And it’s simply friendly and polite to try to call people by the name they are comfortable with.

And again, context matters. It’s different for me to have my name mispronounced or misspelled when I’m living a relatively privileged expat life in another country or when I’m part of the white Christian majority in the US. It’s something entirely different if it’s just one of many things that reminds you that you aren’t really accepted by your local society.

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, maize said:

??? Why???

Inserting an English pronunciation of my name into a non-English phonetic system is all kinds of awkward, and actually most speakers of other languages literally cannot form an American rhotic "r" comfortably or competently. That's a speech sound that takes an awful lot of practice.

Nope, there was zero call for me to either try to impose that on anyone or to feel somehow slighted by their failure to attempt it.

This is just me talking, for myself. Part of the reason Americans have a bad rap when traveling is the desire for everything to be like it is at home. They’re brash and bold and it shows. No humility. If you wouldn’t act that way outside the house, because it’s RUDE, why/how do you justify doing it INSIDE the house (so to speak) even as you know it marginalizes your family members/fellow residents? It’s about the EFFORT, not the success.

It’s the golden rule at work on a grand scale. I find that taking the time to pronounce names and places the way locals/owners of those names/words do creates opportunities for deeper connection. The same applies in the U.S., perhaps even more so because people come from everywhere else.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Sneezyone