Question about diversity/inclusion language

[OH_Homeschooler]

11 minutes ago, SKL said:

I'm sorry that happened to your child.  It does happen to a disturbing percentage of children around the world (including myself and a certain % of my family).  Each of them deals with it in various ways, and as far as I know, none of these ways are codified into how classroom time is allocated.

Personally I don't believe that a change in pronouns does anything to heal child sexual abuse.

My kids are among the population of kids who are adoptees in single parent families.  Imagine all the times that the language of the classroom was awkward for them.  But nobody's accusing the teachers of being uncaring just because they don't think of every possible permutation of family life when they speak.

Well, my child is also a member of a single parent family (due to the above described sexual abuse). I don't know what your point is. No one fits into one little box.

There are so many things kids go through. Some you can fix, or help. Others you can't undo.  Will using a child's preferred pronoun undo their sexual abuse? If only. But it adds a little less friction to their life. Why the heck wouldn't you do it?

Edited August 2, 2023 by OH_Homeschooler

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

My kids are among the population of kids who are adoptees in single parent families.  Imagine all the times that the language of the classroom was awkward for them.  But nobody's accusing the teachers of being uncaring just because they don't think of every possible permutation of family life when they speak.

This is actually a very good example for awareness how small language changes can create a more inclusive atmosphere. Many schools no longer call events  " muffins with mom" or "donuts with dad" but instead create events that are inclusive for all children's caregiving adults and take into account the many different kinds of families. So a kid without a dad, or one raised by grandparents,  feels included. They can bring "the grownups that take care of them".

Just because they didn't in the past doesn't seem a great reason to maintain the old language.

Edited August 2, 2023 by regentrude

[Amira]

2 hours ago, maize said:

Being respectful to the people in front of you can include not taking offense where offense is not intended, making allowance for human brains being imperfect, and respecting that the words that come out of another person's mouth are not your personal property.

Respect only works when it is extended in all directions.

I don’t disagree, but I also think that others’ mistakes will always been seen in context of a person’s lived experience.

My daughter is trans.  She knows that one of her grandfathers will never call her by her real name because he’s certain that he knows she’s male. Some people just don’t talk to her anymore because they’re not comfortable with her name and pronouns.  Both are isolating in different ways. She also knows that my mom is old and slips sometimes and refers to her by the wrong name or pronouns even though my mom tries really hard and acknowledges and tries again when she makes a mistake. There’s a huge difference between what my mom does and what her grandfather does, of course.  

But when my daughter has to deal with people like her grandfather who explicitly deny who she is, or with other people who ignore who she is, it wears her down.  And even though she knows and gives grace to my mom when she makes a mistake, because she knows my mom is trying, it’s still hard because there are so many other people who aren’t trying. 

If everyone were in the category of trying but sometimes making mistakes, I think it would be easier to give grace for mistakes.  But they’re not, so I can’t place all the burden on my daughter to be nice to others when they accidentally misgender her when, as a society, many people are intentionally misgendering her. 

The discussion here will have probably moved on by the time I get this posted and others may have made the same point more eloquently, but I wanted to make sure this came up.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Just now, regentrude said:

This is actually a very good example for awareness how small language changes can create a more inclusive atmosphere. Many schools no longer call events  " muffins with mom" or "donuts with dad" but instead create events that are inclusive for all children's caregiving adults and take into account the many different kinds of families. So a kid without a dad, or one raised by grandparents,  feels included.

Just because they didn't in the past doesn't seem a great reason to maintain the old language.

It's almost like they only object to specific language changes and don't really mind most of them. Wonder why that is. 

 

[OH_Homeschooler]

1 minute ago, Amira said:

If everyone were in the category of trying but sometimes making mistakes, I think it would be easier to give grace for mistakes.  But they’re not, so I can’t place all the burden on my daughter to be nice to others when they accidentally misgender her when, as a society, many people are intentionally misgendering her. 

Preach! No one ever gets it right 100% of the time, but it makes such a difference just to know people try. 

[maize]

Just now, OH_Homeschooler said:

Well, my child is also a member of a single parent family (due to the above described sexual abuse). I don't know what your point is. No one fits into one little box. 

Perhaps the point is that courtesy and compassion and a willingness to give the benefit of the doubt and ascribe generally good intentions to most people we interact with are not more difficult things to adopt than persistant concern over pronouns. 

We each control our own behavior, not that of other people. The pronoun thing tends to focus in on worry over the behavior of other people, and that is not in my opinion healthy for anyone--least of all for kids who are being primed to perceive use of the wrong pronoun in referring to them as a traumatic event, an assault even.

I'm not sure what happened to the idea of letting other people live according to their principles, beliefs, or even just human randomness. A pronoun is not a violent weapon and should not be perceived as such. Sometimes people make mistakes. Sometimes people are, by any given individual's judgment, just plain wrong in their ideas and opinions.

Both of those actually need to be OK 99.99% of the time. I see no other healthy way to live on a planet with billions of other humans who don't all think or believe or speak according to my preferences or beliefs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[livetoread]

Has anyone in the discussion been frequently yelled at or shamed for inadvertently using the wrong pronoun? I know in my own experience which involves a fair number (more than five, less than ten) of trans kids who are friends with my NB kid, plus overall interacting in the world, I have never experienced that. I don't run with trans activists, and I know activists of any movement can be intense, but my day to day interactions with trans/NB people isn't like that. I try to get pronouns right, they know I'm trying, I mess up and either catch myself or I don't, and they let it slide when I don't. I mean I'm bound to encounter a jerk eventually, but really, I'm kind of lost as to where all these people are who are lighting into folks who are trying.

[maize]

14 minutes ago, Amira said:

I don’t disagree, but I also think that others’ mistakes will always been seen in context of a person’s lived experience.

My daughter is trans.  She knows that one of her grandfathers will never call her by her real name because he’s certain that he knows she’s male. Some people just don’t talk to her anymore because they’re not comfortable with her name and pronouns.  Both are isolating in different ways. She also knows that my mom is old and slips sometimes and refers to her by the wrong name or pronouns even though my mom tries really hard and acknowledges and tries again when she makes a mistake. There’s a huge difference between what my mom does and what her grandfather does, of course.  

But when my daughter has to deal with people like her grandfather who explicitly deny who she is, or with other people who ignore who she is, it wears her down.  And even though she knows and gives grace to my mom when she makes a mistake, because she knows my mom is trying, it’s still hard because there are so many other people who aren’t trying. 

If everyone were in the category of trying but sometimes making mistakes, I think it would be easier to give grace for mistakes.  But they’re not, so I can’t place all the burden on my daughter to be nice to others when they accidentally misgender her when, as a society, many people are intentionally misgendering her. 

The discussion here will have probably moved on by the time I get this posted and others may have made the same point more eloquently, but I wanted to make sure this came up.

 

Surely though you realize and teach your child that their direct sphere of control extends only to themselves. They can't control grandfather; at some point there has to be a path to accepting that. Sometimes those paths can involve establishing protective boundaries, but I don't think it ever hurts to start with personal efforts to understand and be compassionate towards another person's different experience and perceptions.

I see a trend towards very narrow perceptions of right and wrong and acceptable and unacceptable, and rejection of whatever does not actively affirm my personal views and understanding. I see nothing positive in such a view of the world regardless of WHAT views are being narrowly defined as right and acceptable.

[EKS]

27 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

5% of kids feel they don't fit in with either gender.

Remarkably, you don't have to "fit in" with gender stereotypes to be a male or female.  I know this as a person who had significant gender dysphoria as a child, who still does to some extent, and who presents as gender nonconforming now.  In fact I was just misgendered yesterday.  

I am beyond grateful that the way this was dealt with in the 1970s was to simply let me be who I was while continually reinforcing the unyielding reality that I was, indeed, female.  What we are doing to gender dysphoric and gender nonconforming youth today is unconscionable. 

[OH_Homeschooler]

7 minutes ago, livetoread said:

Has anyone in the discussion been frequently yelled at or shamed for inadvertently using the wrong pronoun? I know in my own experience which involves a fair number (more than five, less than ten) of trans kids who are friends with my NB kid, plus overall interacting in the world, I have never experienced that. I don't run with trans activists, and I know activists of any movement can be intense, but my day to day interactions with trans/NB people isn't like that. I try to get pronouns right, they know I'm trying, I mess up and either catch myself or I don't, and they let it slide when I don't. I mean I'm bound to encounter a jerk eventually, but really, I'm kind of lost as to where all these people are who are lighting into folks who are trying.

Exactly. For my child it's a simple "them" when someone says "her" or whatever, and it's mostly appreciated (because most people aren't actually assholes). And my child doesn't bother correcting random strangers they'll never see again. 

[OH_Homeschooler]

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

Remarkably, you don't have to "fit in" with gender stereotypes to be a male or female.  I know this as a person who had significant gender dysphoria as a child, who still does to some extent, and who presents as gender nonconforming now.  In fact I was just misgendered yesterday.  

I am beyond grateful that the way this was dealt with in the 1970s was to simply let me be who I was while continually reinforcing the unyielding reality that I was, indeed, female.  What we are doing to gender dysphoric and gender nonconforming youth today is unconscionable. 

Providing reassurance so they don't feel the need to kill themselves is unconscionable? 

[EKS]

2 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

Providing reassurance so they don't feel the need to kill themselves is unconscionable? 

Please point me actual studies that show that the suicide risk is higher in gender dysphoric youth because of the gender dysphoria and not because of some other mental health issue.  

[maize]

7 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

Providing reassurance so they don't feel the need to kill themselves is unconscionable? 

My experience is largely with OCD, and trying to  alleviate distress by providing reassurances tends to exacerbate rather than remediate OCD symptoms, even if it provides some degree of immediate relief. 

I suspect our current tack with regards to total and habitual affirmation may not in fact prove to be the best approach to gender dysphoria in the long term. I do hope we get better research in that area soon.

I take mental health very seriously. I unfortunately know only too well how very shallow our current understanding of everything that can afflict the human brain is.

[Amira]

19 minutes ago, maize said:

 

Surely though you realize and teach your child that their direct sphere of control extends only to themselves. They can't control grandfather; at some point there has to be a path to accepting that. Sometimes those paths can involve establishing protective boundaries, but I don't think it ever hurts to start with personal efforts to understand and be compassionate towards another person's different experience and perceptions.

I see a trend towards very narrow perceptions of right and wrong and acceptable and unacceptable, and rejection of whatever does not actively affirm my personal views and understanding. I see nothing positive in such a view of the world regardless of WHAT views are being narrowly defined as right and acceptable.

Yes, of course she knows that she can’t control her grandfather or anyone else and like I said, she extends grace when people make mistakes and she has absolutely never been rude to someone who won’t call her by her name or pronouns.  What I am hoping for is a little more grace and understanding of her own experiences because I think she realizes better than most people that she can’t control others.  

It’s really not hard to try.  Perfection is hard, but trying is possible for almost everyone.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Amira

[Farrar]

12 minutes ago, maize said:

 

Surely though you realize and teach your child that their direct sphere of control extends only to themselves. They can't control grandfather; at some point there has to be a path to accepting that. Sometimes those paths can involve establishing protective boundaries, but I don't think it ever hurts to start with personal efforts to understand and be compassionate towards another person's different experience and perceptions.

I see a trend towards very narrow perceptions of right and wrong and acceptable and unacceptable, and rejection of whatever does not actively affirm my personal views and understanding. I see nothing positive in such a view of the world regardless of WHAT views are being narrowly defined as right and acceptable.

This response values the grandfather's right to his perspective and language over the granddaughter's right to boundaries. She never mentioned trying to control him, just the harm his language did over time, distinguishing it from cases where intentions weren't negative.

It's incredibly difficult to have grace for others when they have zero grace for your basic identity and actually sometimes intend you harm. Showing grace does not mean being a doormat for others or that anything goes in others' behavior and language.

[Murphy101]

4 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

Providing reassurance so they don't feel the need to kill themselves is unconscionable? 

Yes. Because most will try to kill themselves anyways. Even those who go through body modifications with affirming people supporting them still have a high suicide rate.  This is not a cure for their mental illness.

Because mental illness generally, and more so specific to this topic, has a high suicide rate.

I’d be giddy if affirmation cured any of it or saved lives.

[maize]

Just now, Amira said:

Yes, of course she knows that she can’t control her grandfather or anyone else and like I said, she extends grace when people make mistakes and she has absolutely never been rude to someone who won’t call her by her name or pronouns.  What I am hoping for is a little more grace and understanding of her own experiences because I think she realizes better than most people that she can’t control others.  It’s really not hard to try.  Perfection is hard, but trying is possible for almost everyone.

I wonder though, at what point we also accept that our view of something isn't the one and only right or acceptable view.

If grandfather views biological sex as more of a defining characteristic than gender identity, would it actually be right *from his point of view* to try to use pronouns that go counter to the known biological sex of the person?

It's unclear to me why he *should* try. Isn't it equally reasonable for the person who perceives gender identity as the more salient characteristic to try to be accepting of the grandfather's point of view?

Why would one direction of trying be perceived as more morally desirable than the other?

This to me falls very much in the realm of needing to actually accept different worldviews and moral perspectives as reasonably valid ways for humans to live.

And yes of course that applies to the grandfather,  though I personally make a lot of allowances for people who have lived many decades, have brains that are genuinely less flexible than they once were, and are being asked to completely change their perception of the world to accommodate new-fangled ideas and standards.

[maize]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I’d be giddy if affirmation cured any of it or saved lives.

Yeah.

[Murphy101]

10 minutes ago, maize said:

My experience is largely with OCD, and trying to  alleviate distress by providing reassurances tends to exacerbate rather than remediate OCD symptoms, even if it provides some degree of immediate relief. 

I suspect our current tack with regards to total and habitual affirmation may not in fact prove to be the best approach to gender dysphoria in the long term. I do hope we get better research in that area soon.

I take mental health very seriously. I unfortunately know only too well how very shallow our current understanding of everything that can afflict the human brain is.

Sigh. This.  People have no idea how much I wish affirmations were at all helpful. 😔

[maize]

8 minutes ago, Farrar said:

This response values the grandfather's right to his perspective and language over the granddaughter's right to boundaries. She never mentioned trying to control him, just the harm his language did over time, distinguishing it from cases where intentions weren't negative.

 

I saw no indication that the grandfather's intention was negative. 

I doubt anyone can have much influence on the grandfather so u personally wouldn't bother. Older brains really do become less flexible.

I don't look forward to aging.

[EKS]

11 minutes ago, Farrar said:

It's incredibly difficult to have grace for others when they have zero grace for your basic identity and actually sometimes intend you harm.

While I certainly think that people should be polite, identity is not something that a person decides unilaterally.  An identity is socially negotiated.  

[freesia]

4 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

Absolutely Maize. It happened last night! I called my son by my daughter's name -- then immediately changed to his. I always feel a little bad when I call my kids by the wrong name -- but it happens to BOTH of them. When we were growing up, I used to be Ra-Sarah to my dad and my sister was Sa-RAchel.  I don't catch it as fast 😞  But it has NOTHING to do with not valuing/caring for my kids.

 

I do this exact thing ( with the same names lol)

[Murphy101]

11 minutes ago, EKS said:

While I certainly think that people should be polite, identity is not something that a person decides unilaterally.  An identity is socially negotiated.  

Hmmm. So expand on this….

[maize]

7 minutes ago, EKS said:

While I certainly think that people should be polite, identity is not something that a person decides unilaterally.  An identity is socially negotiated.  

Yes.

If there were no social/group element, no-one would actually care about pronouns. If identity is purely a private thing, the ways you refer to me matter not at all.

If it's a communal thing, it belongs not just to me but to the community. That means the community has valid room for input. 

The communal aspects of living as a human are always the most complicated. It's that whole lack of control thing.

[Amira]

15 minutes ago, maize said:

I wonder though, at what point we also accept that our view of something isn't the one and only right or acceptable view.

If grandfather views biological sex as more of a defining characteristic than gender identity, would it actually be right *from his point of view* to try to use pronouns that go counter to the known biological sex of the person?

It's unclear to me why he *should* try. Isn't it equally reasonable for the person who perceives gender identity as the more salient characteristic to try to be accepting of the grandfather's point of view?

Why would one direction of trying be perceived as more morally desirable than the other?

This to me falls very much in the realm of needing to actually accept different worldviews and moral perspectives as reasonably valid ways for humans to live.

And yes of course that applies to the grandfather,  though I personally make a lot of allowances for people who have lived many decades, have brains that are genuinely less flexible than they once were, and are being asked to completely change their perception of the world to accommodate new-fangled ideas and standards.

How would trying to accept his worldview actually look like for my daughter, beyond what she has already done? I realize that you don’t know her life, but I’m referring to the fact that she has never challenged him about his beliefs.  From your perspective, what would being accepting of his worldview actually look like?  

[OH_Homeschooler]

49 minutes ago, EKS said:

Please point me actual studies that show that the suicide risk is higher in gender dysphoric youth because of the gender dysphoria and not because of some other mental health issue.  

This is just the first google result. There are many.

https://www.health.state.mn.us/communities/suicide/documents/pronounssuicideprev.pdf

[EKS]

1 minute ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

This is just the first google result. There are many.

https://www.health.state.mn.us/communities/suicide/documents/pronounssuicideprev.pdf

That is not a study.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Just now, EKS said:

That is not a study.

Yes I realize but I don't have all day to do deep dives into research. It is compelling evidence.

[EKS]

1 minute ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

It is compelling evidence.

It doesn't contain any evidence at all.  

[OH_Homeschooler]

1 minute ago, EKS said:

It doesn't contain any evidence at all.  

OK, so you think they just made these numbers up? I don't know why I'm bothering. You have your mind made up. 

 

Just be nice, people. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[maize]

3 minutes ago, Amira said:

How would trying to accept his worldview actually look like for my daughter, beyond what she has already done? I realize that you don’t know her life, but I’m referring to the fact that she has never challenged him about his beliefs.  From your perspective, what would being accepting of his worldview actually look like?  

Acceptance to me would look like dropping the judgmental framing of the grandfather as "not trying". There isn't a moral obligation for him to try to fit his perception and speech to his grandchild's preferences. You frame this lack of trying as a burden on the child.

"But when my daughter has to deal with people like her grandfather who explicitly deny who she is, or with other people who ignore who she is, it wears her down. And even though she knows and gives grace to my mom when she makes a mistake, because she knows my mom is trying, it’s still hard because there are so many other people who aren’t trying."

Acceptance is letting go of that burden.

 

[Murphy101]

2 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

OK, so you think they just made these numbers up? I don't know why I'm bothering. You have your mind made up. 

 

Might as well have made it up bc there’s no study linked to base anything on.

[EKS]

2 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

You have your mind made up.

No I don't.  I just want to see a peer reviewed study that shows that people with gender dysphoria commit suicide at a significantly higher rate than non-gender dysphoric people when other mental health issues are held constant.

[OH_Homeschooler]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

Might as well have made it up bc there’s no study linked to base anything on.

There is plenty of context if you actually go to the link. Not every piece of data is invalid just because it's not part of a study. 

[Sneezyone]

In what other context do we ignore the actual harm that someone has experienced or reported in favor of validating the (unknown) intent of the person who causes harm? Does it matter what they intended? Really, that’s a legit question. Good people sometimes do bad things.

Do people not go to jail if they don’t intend to shoot? Do people not experience social scorn if they don’t intend to use a racial slur? Or do we first mitigate the harm and or secure some kind of remedy/closure for the victim?

Assuming good intent is always helpful but only insofar as it does not distract from stopping the bleeding and mitigating the harm.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Sneezyone

[EKS]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Might as well have made it up bc there’s no study linked to base anything on.

This is the thing that was referenced: https://www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2021/?section=Introduction

[Corraleno]

29 minutes ago, maize said:

If there were no social/group element, no-one would actually care about pronouns. If identity is purely a private thing, the ways you refer to me matter not at all.

If it's a communal thing, it belongs not just to me but to the community. That means the community has valid room for input. 

The communal aspects of living as a human are always the most complicated. It's that whole lack of control thing.

If a person's identity "belongs to the community," then who decides what is an acceptable way to refer to any given person? Does majority rule? If the "community" of men at a given workplace decide that it's perfectly OK to refer to the female receptionist as Sweetcheeks and Babydoll, does she get a say, or does her identity belong to the community as long as they "mean no harm"? If a group of people decide to refer to a minority coworker or student using a racial slur, is that OK as long as it accords with their sincerely held beliefs? How are those any different from a teacher, coworker, or relative purposely using names or pronouns that an individual has specifically asked not to be used?

9 minutes ago, maize said:

Acceptance to me would look like dropping the judgmental framing of the grandfather as "not trying". There isn't a moral obligation for him to try to fit his perception and speech to his grandchild's preferences. You frame this lack of trying as a burden on the child.

So no "judgmental framing" of someone who uses sexist or racist language, such as repeatedly referring to a black coworker as "boy," because they have no moral obligation to try to fit their perception to the coworker's preferences?

Or is it only trans/NB people who are supposed to accept that they have no right to an identity that is respected by others?

Edited August 2, 2023 by Corraleno

[EKS]

2 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

Not every piece of data is invalid just because it's not part of a study. 

I think that the claim that gender dysphoric youth are more likely to commit suicide if they aren't "affirmed" is significant enough to warrant serious, properly constructed and controlled studies.

[maize]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

In what other context do we ignore the actual harm that someone has experienced or reported in favor of validating the (unknown) intent of the person who causes harm? Does it matter what they intended? Really, that’s a legit question. Good people sometimes do bad things.

Do people not go to jail if they don’t intend to shoot? Do people not experience social scorn if they don’t intend to use a racial slur? Or do we first mitigate the harm and or secure some kind of remedy/closure for the victim?

Assuming good intent is always helpful but only insofar as it does not distract from stopping the bleeding.

Words are not bullets.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, maize said:

Words are not bullets.

The real world does not operate by kindergarten chant rules. Words have power. Words have impact. Words cause harm. Words damage people.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Sneezyone

[OH_Homeschooler]

7 minutes ago, EKS said:

This is the thing that was referenced: https://www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2021/?section=Introduction

OK, that looks like a study. So where's your objection? You realize no social survey will ever be 100% "clean." It's not chemistry research. But there are plenty of ways for survey researchers to ensure the data is valid and representative.  

Edited August 2, 2023 by OH_Homeschooler

[maize]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The real world does not operate by kindergarten chant rules. Words have power. Words have impact. Words cause harm. Words damage people.

Jonathan Haidt addresses some of the risks associated with treating words as violence:

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/07/why-its-a-bad-idea-to-tell-students-words-are-violence/533970/

Edited August 2, 2023 by maize

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, maize said:

Jonathan Haidt addresses some of the risks associated with treating words as violence:

https://www.stern.nyu.edu/experience-stern/faculty-research/why-it-is-a-bad-idea-to-tell-students-words-are-violence

I don’t know who the heck that is but he should take it up with any lawyer in America who’s ever defended someone against harassment charges. This isn’t just an esoteric thought exercise. The impact of verbal abuse is well known and documented. Repeatedly misgendering and misnaming people when you’ve been asked not to is yet another form of harassment and it shouldn’t be normalized. In the context of the workplace, that kind of hostility toward others is illegal (at least in my state).

Edited August 2, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Dmmetler]

20 hours ago, Kassia said:

I agree with this!  Some changes felt really hard for me at first and now they feel so natural.  🙂 

 

Yes, I understood "mankind" but not the oh brother and oh man.

I didn't think of freshman/freshmen!  Good alternative, but that's all so confusing already with students coming in with different amounts of credits.  Dd was a first year senior in her second semester, and ds3 was a first year junior.  

L's school uses first year, second year, etc. but also each graduation year picks a name/mascot. So class of 2025 is the Fireflies. So a new transfer this year would be a firefly, even though their first year on campus IS their third year of college. 

 

 

[EKS]

13 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

OK, that looks like a study. So where's your objection? You realize no social survey will ever be 100% "clean." It's not chemistry research. But there are plenty of ways for survey researchers to ensure the data is valid and representative.  

I'm not exactly sure what it was (other than being a survey).  I would like to see a study that specifically looks at rates of suicide and attempts to disentangle the effects of gender dysphoria from mental illness.

I should mention that I've just spent some time looking in my university's library and have had no luck.

Edited August 2, 2023 by EKS

[kokotg]

Here's one: 

8 minutes ago, EKS said:

I'm not exactly sure what it was (other than being a survey).  I would like to see a study that specifically looks at rates of suicide and attempts to disentangle the effects of gender dysphoria from mental illness.

I should mention that I've just spent some time looking in my university's library and have had no luck.

Here's one: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35212746/

[Amira]

41 minutes ago, maize said:

Acceptance to me would look like dropping the judgmental framing of the grandfather as "not trying". There isn't a moral obligation for him to try to fit his perception and speech to his grandchild's preferences. You frame this lack of trying as a burden on the child.

"But when my daughter has to deal with people like her grandfather who explicitly deny who she is, or with other people who ignore who she is, it wears her down. And even though she knows and gives grace to my mom when she makes a mistake, because she knows my mom is trying, it’s still hard because there are so many other people who aren’t trying."

Acceptance is letting go of that burden.

 

She’s a lot closer to your version of acceptance than I am, but she also didn’t hear what her grandfather said about her when he learned she was trans.

But I’ll reframe this. I wish that her grandfather still thought that she is the same person.

I think that’s the main place where I disagree with the grandfather.  He believes my daughter is a different person now because he prioritizes biological sex over everything else about my daughter.  She still makes stupid puns.  She still loves to read.  She still loves hockey.  She still wants a cat.  She still is graduating this week with a 4.0 in statistics and just got a 172 on the LSAT. She still loves board games and to play Minecraft with her little brother. But none of that matters anymore because for him, it’s all obscured by this conflict that he sees over her sex and gender.  It’s more than words, more than the fact that he thinks it is morally wrong to use her name and pronouns.  He can’t see her anymore.  

I don’t think that the harm caused by not accepting is equal in all cases.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Amira

[kokotg]

Here's another: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/2779429

 

[kokotg]

Here's another: https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltext

 

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, livetoread said:

Has anyone in the discussion been frequently yelled at or shamed for inadvertently using the wrong pronoun? I know in my own experience which involves a fair number (more than five, less than ten) of trans kids who are friends with my NB kid, plus overall interacting in the world, I have never experienced that. I don't run with trans activists, and I know activists of any movement can be intense, but my day to day interactions with trans/NB people isn't like that. I try to get pronouns right, they know I'm trying, I mess up and either catch myself or I don't, and they let it slide when I don't. I mean I'm bound to encounter a jerk eventually, but really, I'm kind of lost as to where all these people are who are lighting into folks who are trying.

But it’s so much more fun to find the most irritating, hard nosed activist, decide that everyone on that “side” is that way, then yell about it.  It’s a straw man that sets itself up for you.  Nuance? Don’t know her.  

Edited August 2, 2023 by Heartstrings