Question about diversity/inclusion language

[Scarlett]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

Suppose you had a job you needed to keep, and that required tolerating someone who made a habit of adultery jokes. You might be able to tolerate it or tune it out while they were talking about their own exploits. You might tell them you think they are immature, inappropriate and to knock it off already. But what if they started teasing you, insisting in light, silly, joking ways, where other colleagues could hear, that you protesteth too much. You think that wouldn't get to you after a while? When the boss says "that's just their style of humour" and HR says "Sorry, but non-adulterers aren't a protected class, so I can't discipline them for it" that you wouldn't feel harassed and wouldn't be able to imagine feeling harassed?

But regardless of topic that IS harassment.  I have put up with much much worse including being hit on relentlessly by the owner of the company.  And so so much more.  I was there for a paycheck to pay my bills, not for personal validation.  

 

[Sneezyone]

52 minutes ago, SKL said:

Are we still allowed to say straw man?  Isn't it straw person?  😛

FTR - you're allowed to say whatever you want. You may not be allowed to harass others in the workplace and keep your job. Different things.

[Rosie_0801]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

But regardless of topic that IS harassment.  I have put up with much much worse including being hit on relentlessly by the owner of the company.  And so so much more.  I was there for a paycheck to pay my bills, not for personal validation.  

 

What makes my example harassment if not being constantly told you're someone you're not?

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

But regardless of topic that IS harassment.  I have put up with much much worse including being hit on relentlessly by the owner of the company.  And so so much more.  I was there for a paycheck to pay my bills, not for personal validation.  

 

Scarlett - the fact that you put up with abuse doesn't mean the law allows abuse or tolerates abuse. What you dealt with, and I did as a teen employee in NWA, was WRONG. I didn't know any better. I do now.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[SHP]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I said in a skirt, heels, with hair and makeup done, how is that innapropriate?  Its been awhile since I worked in an office, does everyone wear scrubs and baseball caps or something now?    Are only trans people wearing make up now?  Is that the tell? 

I don't get the make-up for women or trans women assumptions. But I run with a group of old people and only the men wear makeup. The women? Don't have time for that and would rather spend money elsewhere. Well, mostly. A woman friend did wear makeup to an interview once, back in 2018. Maybe we are just too lazy here. 

[Scarlett]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

What makes it harassment if not being constantly told you're someone you're not?

I mean define, ‘constantly being told’.  
 

I can see it as harassment trying to force me to deny reality.

I think reasonable,  kind people can find a way to co-exist  with out ridiculous demands on beliefs and morals and  conscience.  

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Scarlett - the fact that you put up with abuse doesn't mean the law allows abuse or tolerates abuse. What you dealt with, and I did as a teen employee in NWA, was WRONG. I didn't know any better. I do now.

I know it was wrong, I knew it then.  I just did not care enough to melt down over it.  I was secure in myself and in my standards and I did not need the outside validation to continue on in my life.  

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, LMD said:

Okay, I stand corrected.

Would you say you had been abusive?

Threads move fast, so I certainly don't blame you for not remembering, but I said a few hours ago that I don't care for that line of argument around the topic. 

I was not abusive, if anything I thought she was overly harsh at the time, but I was a shy teenager and was embarrassed. 

I do think arguing with her would have been rude on my part.  If I had said, "I'm sorry, but I perceive you as being a man, so I'll stick with sir", as some here are saying they would do would have been very unkind and I'd have come off as a bit of a jerk.  If I had escalated beyond that, to the point of yelling, etc. it could have gotten to the point of being abusive. 

I simply said, "My apologies, ma'am" and went on, which cost me nothing at all.   

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Scarlett - the fact that you put up with abuse doesn't mean the law allows abuse or tolerates abuse. What you dealt with, and I did as a teen employee in NWA, was WRONG. I didn't know any better. I do now.

Oh and not to mention, explain how I would report that the owner of the company often undressed me with his eyes.  

[LMD]

6 minutes ago, SHP said:

Can you please give a specific example of what what you mean by "professionally inappropriate, sexist manner"? 

Too short/tight skirts

Cocktail dresses

Showing underwear

Stuff that would get female employees a talking to.

Or in the case of the Canadian teacher, gigantic fake boobs and bike shorts.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I know it was wrong, I knew it then.  I just did not care enough to melt down over it.  I was secure in myself and in my standards and I did not need the outside validation to continue on in my life.  

YOU ARE YOU. Others aren't required to hold it together for unspecified reasons. It's WRONG. It's ILLEGAL. People have recourse but shouldn't need to use it.

[LMD]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

Threads move fast, so I certainly don't blame you for not remembering, but I said a few hours ago that I don't care for that line of argument around the topic. 

I was not abusive, if anything I thought she was overly harsh at the time, but I was a shy teenager and was embarrassed. 

I do think arguing with her would have been rude on my part.  If I had said, "I'm sorry, but I perceive you as being a man, so I'll stick with sir", as some here are saying they would do would have been very unkind and I'd have come off as a bit of a jerk.  If I had escalated beyond that, to the point of yelling, etc. it could have gotten to the point of being abusive. 

I simply said, "My apologies, ma'am" and went on, which cost me nothing at all.   

I don't believe anyone has said they would say that, actually.

Thanks for your response. 

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, LMD said:

Too short/tight skirts

Cocktail dresses

Showing underwear

Stuff that would get female employees a talking to.

Or in the case of the Canadian teacher, gigantic fake boobs and bike shorts.

We have gender non-specific guidelines that would still result in employee counseling, the size of your breasts or HOW you cover them not being one of them. My colleagues and I wear KNEE-LENGTH dresses without issues, CALF-LENGTH pants without issues, and blazers/suits for more formal occasions. \Maybe you haven't been in the workplace for a minute but most people get the memo just by looking around.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[SHP]

Just now, LMD said:

Too short/tight skirts

Cocktail dresses

Showing underwear

Stuff that would get female employees a talking to.

Or in the case of the Canadian teacher, gigantic fake boobs and bike shorts.

If it is in violation of the dress code then should be addressed as such. 

 

Giant fake boobs were, at one point, in style. I try not to judge, though on hot August afternoons I tend to slip up and wonder aloud what someone is thinking because it is too hot out. 

 

[Rosie_0801]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I can see it as harassment trying to force me to deny reality.

Then you can also see it as harassment when people try to force others to deny reality.

So, when you say you "don't understand" that isn't reality. You really do understand, you just don't care much about the topic, and you're in the conversation simply because you have the right to be, to defend your right not adapt your stance on the topic.
 

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

YOU ARE YOU. Others aren't required to hold it together for unspecified reasons. It's WRONG. It's ILLEGAL. People have recourse but shouldn't need to use it.

I mean sure.  But I feel really good with my life and you are super upset.  

[EKS]

23 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

She was very stern when she corrected me.  She VERY much did care that I had said sir instead of Ma'am. 

I get misgendered fairly regularly.  Because I am making a choice that results in this particular outcome (in terms of my hairstyle, clothing, etc), I can't imagine being upset when people get it wrong.

[Scarlett]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

Then you can also see it as harassment when people try to force others to deny reality.

So, when you say you "don't understand" that isn't reality. You really do understand, you just don't care much about the topic, and you're in the conversation simply because you have the right to be, to defend your right not adapt your stance on the topic.
 

I am in the conversation because I want to be.  Do I need a better reason? Am I violating board rules?

I also like to voice what I feel like others with thinner skin are thinking.  

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, LMD said:

I don't believe anyone has said they would say that, actually.

Thanks for your response. 

 

A couple of people have insisted that they would hold a boundary against using the pronouns they perceive as being lies.  I'm assuming they would do so in as polite a manner as it could be done.  I imagine it would go something like what I stated. Otherwise I'm not sure how that would go.  How does one refuse to go along with it without actually stating that you won't?  

Edited August 10, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I mean sure.  But I feel really good with my life and you are super upset.  

Scarlett, I'm entertaining my daughter and bonus child, fed them and my son a marvelous meal, am fussing with you all for kicks, not because I'm upset. In a handful of days I get my laundry guy back (temporarily, B/C Tuberville) and will enjoy moving DD into her dorm. I'm not mad. Lol.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Scarlett]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Scarlett, I'm entertaining my daughter and bonus child, fed them and my son a marvelous meal, am fussing with you all for kicks, not because I'm upset.

Well, good to know because you come across as really really angry. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

I get misgendered fairly regularly.  Because I am making a choice that results in this particular outcome (in terms of my hairstyle, clothing, etc), I can't imagine being upset when people get it wrong.

You can't imagine but others can and do.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Well, good to know because you come across as really really angry. 

Blame the ANGRY BLACK WOMAN (tm) narrative.

[Dmmetler]

It makes sense to me to try to get in the habit of either not using pronouns or using non-gendered ones until you hear otherwise in general because....well, you can't always tell. In the last few years, I've had Elliot and Drew who were girls, Renee (actually Rene, but misspelled on the roll) and Drea who were boys.  I've had boys show up with long blonde curls wearing a pink t-shirt with a kitten on it, and girls with short haircuts wearing a pokemon t-shirt.  None of these kids are trans-and none of them like being misgendered, so avoiding using pronouns until the parent or a kid says something to indicate which I should use works pretty well-usually it's in about the first minute or two. If I DO have a trans student, well, waiting until I get a cue means that they don't have to correct me. (And so far, the parents have given me a heads up before I even met the student-even for the ones who are teens). 

 

It's also worked well as L talks about classmates and friends. Wait for the pronoun to be given, use that.  "I'll be late-Jazz needs help with her daughter's math homework" "I'm going to the concert with Vincent. They're a big MCR fan..." 

 

It was ackward 3-4 years ago. At this point, it's pretty easy to apply, whether it's a 6 yr old in a pink t-shirt or a muscular college kid. 

 

I will say that I could see it being difficult for, say, someone waiting tables here in TN where Ma'am and Sir are commonly used, but for me, it works. 

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Then you can also see it as harassment when people try to force others to deny reality.

So, when you say you "don't understand" that isn't reality. You really do understand, you just don't care much about the topic, and you're in the conversation simply because you have the right to be, to defend your right not adapt your stance on the topic.
 

I feel like this is a little bit of a circle.  Which comes down to how do people with opposing beliefs interact with one another?  It can’t all be decided by legalities.  

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, EKS said:

I get misgendered fairly regularly.  Because I am making a choice that results in this particular outcome (in terms of my hairstyle, clothing, etc), I can't imagine being upset when people get it wrong.

I'll admit that that was my opinion at the time.  But clearly the lady did not have the same opinion. 

[Scarlett]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Blame the ANGRY BLACK WOMAN (tm) narrative.

Are you black? Are you a woman?

 

j/k!

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I am in the conversation because I want to be.  Do I need a better reason? Am I violating board rules?

I also like to voice what I feel like others with thinner skin are thinking.  

Oh no, carry on.

There are no board rules obliging people to use words that accurately describe their truth or to answer questions that are asked. These things do cause conversational complications though, but we've sorted it out now. I'm going to go back to reading my book of Greek tragedies.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Blame the ANGRY BLACK WOMAN (tm) narrative.

Ok, but seriously, I don’t buy that you haven’t been angry in the last few days on this thread. You have been downright nasty to me and others.  

[SHP]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Ok, but seriously, I don’t buy that you haven’t been angry in the last few days on this thread. You have been downright nasty to me and others.  

Ok this ties in with what I said earlier about perceptions.

Your perceptions is that Sneezyone is angry.

Only Sneezyone gets to says what Sneezyone feels.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Oh no, carry on.

There are no board rules obliging people to use words that accurately describe their truth or to answer questions that are asked. These things do cause conversational complications though, but we've sorted it out now. I'm going to go back to reading my book of Greek tragedies.

Whaaaat?  I think I am absolutely using words that describe my truth and I don’t think I have failed to answer a question. Conflicting truths do cause a lot of conversational complications though.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I'll admit that that was my opinion at the time.  But clearly the lady did not have the same opinion. 

This doesn't make any sense at all when you think about it. Women should be able to have any haircut and style of dress that they choose. This is COMPLETELY antithetical to that and blaming the victim.

[Scarlett]

Just now, SHP said:

Ok this ties in with what I said earlier about perceptions.

Your perceptions is that Sneezyone is angry.

Only Sneezyone gets to says what Sneezyone feels.

Well, sure.  But when Sneezy is saying things that every southern woman on the planet knows is an insult……how are we to take it.  

[SHP]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Well, sure.  But when Sneezy is saying things that every southern woman on the planet knows is an insult……how are we to take it.  

How about by stating what you percieved their meaning to be and asking them if that is what they meant?

[EKS]

6 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I'll admit that that was my opinion at the time.  But clearly the lady did not have the same opinion. 

Yes, well, these days everyone is a victim.

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Ok, but seriously, I don’t buy that you haven’t been angry in the last few days on this thread. You have been downright nasty to me and others.  

The default is that women need to be deferential and conciliatory to be nice. I am not that. Not even in person, not really. I am diplomatic. I TRY (not always successfully) not to call people out of their name, but I am not deferential. I am pointed. I am sharp as need be. Ann Richards is a role model. Does that provide context? All the southern women I admire (even if in a begrudging way like the current gov of AR) are the same.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The default is that women need to be deferential and conciliatory be nice. I am not that. Not even in person, not really. I am diplomatic. I TRY (not always successfully) not to call people out of their name, but I am not deferential. I am pointed. I am sharp as need be. 

You don’t have to be deferential to be nice.  

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, SHP said:

How about by stating what you percieved their meaning to be and asking them if that is what they meant?

I did.    She admitted she was being dismissive of me.  

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Scarlett said:

You don’t have to be deferential to be nice.  

You don't have to be a shrinking violet either.

[SHP]

Just now, Scarlett said:

I did.    She admitted she was being dismissive of me.  

Then why continue to engage? 

Sounds like you are provoking. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

You don’t have to be deferential to be nice.  

I did. I'm sorry. I didn't have the bandwidth at the time to put on my company manners.

[Scarlett]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

You don't have to be a shrinking violet either.

Of course not.  But you literally said to me, ‘Bless you.’  You very welllknow that is beyond not being a shrinking Violet.  
 

It was you determining that I don’t have a place at this table of discussion.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Of course not.  But you literally said to me, ‘Bless you.’  You very welllknow that is beyond not being a shrinking Violet.  
 

It was you determining that I don’t have a place at this table of discussion.

As I said...limited bandwidth. I apologize.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, SHP said:

Then why continue to engage? 

Sounds like you are provoking. 

You mean now as we are discussing that?  No it is a discussion about those behaviors.  I am giving examples.  I am not upset with her….nor am I trying to provoke. She knows what she did and she admitted it and just now apologized.   All is well.  I was merely trying to point out that she is angry. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Scarlett said:

You mean now as we are discussing that?  No it is a discussion about those behaviors.  I am giving examples.  I am not upset with her….nor am I trying to provoke. She knows what she did and she admitted it and just now apologized.   All is well.  I was merely trying to point out that she is angry. 

FTR - I am *NOT* angry. If I were I would be incapable of banter.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

As I said...limited bandwidth. I apologize.

Apology accepted.  Although the limited bandwidth comment implies I was not worth the trouble.  And I don’t care about that.  Just saying.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Apology accepted.  Although the limited bandwidth comment implies I was not worth the trouble.  And I don’t care about that.  Just saying.

Fair enough. What it meant, for me, is that I had bigger fish to FRY.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

FTR - I am *NOT* angry. If I were I would be incapable of banter.

So you are saying we won’t ever see you angry?  Interesting.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Scarlett said:

So you are saying we won’t ever see you angry?  Interesting.

OH NO. You've seen me angry MANY times. It's usually when my filter slips and I start cursing people left and right, lol.

[LMD]

18 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

 

A couple of people have insisted that they would hold a boundary against using the pronouns they perceive as being lies.  I'm assuming they would do so in as polite a manner as it could be done.  I imagine it would go something like what I stated. Otherwise I'm not sure how that would go.  How does one refuse to go along with it without actually stating that you won't?  

I said I reserve the right to hold my own boundaries - not that I would go around shoving that in people's faces. I've explicitly said this a few times now so the implication is getting annoying.

In a situation comparable to yours I probably would just say something like, "sorry, how may I help you."

Can you imagine a scenario where two people with genuine goodwill and differing strong convictions can respect one another?