Scarlett Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said: MOVE BEYOND WHAT YOU 'KNOW', Scarlett. It's severely limited. You aren’t the decider of such things. I know a lot and I am happy with my take on things. And I am happy with how I treat other humans…..marginalized or not. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 4 minutes ago, SHP said: Ah, I think I see. I do not mean to come across that I was invalidating your experience. Your perception of the person and their presentation is valid. The person stating they prefer a different pronouns is also valid. The two can exist. Them stating they prefer a different pronouns does not invalidate your perception. It is a statement that their internal experiences do not align with external perceptions of them. It doesn't make it gaslighting yourself to acknowledge their internal experience differs from your external perception and that you will show respect by honoring their request. I appreciate your respectful engagement here. I agree the two can exist. I may choose the path of your last paragraph in some circumstances, especially professional ones, I can also imagine scenarios where my conscience would be violated (such as a very unwell/dissociated person where it would do more harm than good). But I absolutely will not be coerced or bullied. Those are immediate red flags that the encounter is in fact not mutually respectful and so my boundaries go up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, PronghornD said: I make my best guess, and I would apologize and change if I got it wrong. If I was really unsure of how the person was presenting, I might use "they." Yeah, that's what most of us do. It's what people should expect. People should not assume they are being attacked if they are called by the pronoun that seems most likely based on how our brains have been subconsciously trained since birth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Scarlett said: You aren’t the decider of such things. I know a lot and I am happy with my take on things. And I am happy with how I treat other humans…..marginalized or not. As long as you're happy, I'm happy for you. This whole thread was started WRT a young woman who is just starting her career. If she listens to folks who think like you, she'll go down in flames...which is GREAT if that's what she wants. If it's not, different choices must be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, PronghornD said: I make my best guess, and I would apologize and change if I got it wrong. If I was really unsure of how the person was presenting, I might use "they." At this point, "they" comes pretty naturally to me as a pronoun for unknown gender. I think gender neutral could work.,,,but people have to understand this is NOT a natural thing for a huge majority of the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, SKL said: Yeah, that's what most of us do. It's what people should expect. People should not assume they are being attacked if they are called by the pronoun that seems most likely based on how our brains have been subconsciously trained since birth. That's not what LMD is discussing tho. It's in situations where repeated contact occurs, she feels it's her right and privilege to maintain employment WHILE refusing to use preferred pronouns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Adding - I've seen up close the spectacular wreckage left behind when adults don't have good boundaries because they just want to be kind. I don't consider it a kindness at all. I consider it emotional abuse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Scarlett said: I think gender neutral could work.,,,but people have to understand this is NOT a natural thing for a huge majority of the population. It may not be natural but it can be accommodated...and...back to the OP...at work...SHOULD BE. And, to be TOTALLY fair to Melissa - she has said she doesn't intentionally misgender people to their face and I take her at her word. The rest of y'all? Sus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 On 8/1/2023 at 6:50 PM, Kassia said: Today was dd's first day at her new job and she had the usual diversity and inclusion training. They were told to avoid saying things like "oh man" or "oh brother" or "businessman" or "mankind." Does anyone know how/why some of these would be inappropriate? I looked up "oh man" and "oh brother" and couldn't find anything. 1 minute ago, Sneezyone said: As long as you're happy, I'm happy for you. This whole thread was started WRT a young woman who is just starting her career. If she listens to folks who think like you, she'll go down in flames...which is GREAT if that's what she wants. If it's not, different choices must be made. I had to go back and see the OP. The young woman/new employee is dealing with crazy town and I hope she can navigate such crazy if she wants to keep that job. I would not want that job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, Scarlett said: I had to go back and see the OP. The young woman/new employee is dealing with crazy town and I hope she can navigate such crazy if she wants to keep that job. I would not want that job. I don't think you'll ever need to worry about that kind of job. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartstrings Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, Sneezyone said: That's not what LMD is discussing tho. It's in situations where repeated contact occurs, she feels it's her right and privilege to maintain employment WHILE refusing to use preferred pronouns. Which has to get weird to the point of absurdity. Insisting on calling a person in a skirt, heels, full make up and nails, a "he" and insisting on calling that person Benjamin when everyone else is calling them SallySue is going to get awkward. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, Sneezyone said: It may not be natural but it can be accommodated...and...back to the OP...at work...SHOULD BE. And, to be TOTALLY fair to Melissa - she has said she doesn't intentionally misgender people to their face and I take her at her word. The rest of y'all? Sus. Since I have never encountered a trans person in my life except maybe passing a person on the street I don’t spend a lot of time thinking how to accommodate such things. Just for a different perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Sneezyone said: I don't think you'll ever need to worry about that kind of job. I feel like this is a direct nasty insult but honestly I just don’t care. You are sometimes not a nice person. You have zero respect for the lived reality of me and lots of people. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PronghornD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 4 minutes ago, SKL said: Yeah, that's what most of us do. It's what people should expect. People should not assume they are being attacked if they are called by the pronoun that seems most likely based on how our brains have been subconsciously trained since birth. In my experience, most trans people I know are very forgiving of those who accidentally use the wrong pronouns, at least once they've been out for a while. (When being out is new, people can genuinely be a bit fragile.) The word attacked is used more for those people who refuse to use the requested pronouns. I really would suggest avoiding pronouns altogether if you cannot in good conscience use the pronouns that people asked you to use. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Scarlett said: I feel like this is a direct nasty insult but honestly I just don’t care. You are sometimes not a nice person. You have zero respect for the lived reality of me and lots of people. I see it. I understand it. I don't have any respect for elevating it over the lived experiences of other, MORE marginalized people. And, you're right. I am not always nice. Most of the time I am. Not always. I lose patience easily. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, PronghornD said: In my experience, most trans people I know are very forgiving of those who accidentally use the wrong pronouns, at least once they've been out for a while. (When being out is new, people can genuinely be a bit fragile.) The word attacked is used more for those people who refuse to use the requested pronouns. I really would suggest avoiding pronouns altogether if you cannot in good conscience use the pronouns that people asked you to use. I would definitely try to do that but I think it would be very difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 18 minutes ago, Sneezyone said: This is an example of treating trans people with the same dignity and respect that you yourself receive when interacting with others. If someone deliberately, and repeatedly referred to you as 'he', and you were marginalized in policy and practice, denied healthcare (another issue a coworker is dealing with for a minor child) you would feel otherwise. 1. I don't give a shiny sh!t if people perceive me as male, I know who and what I am I don't need outside validation. I've been through the unbalanced hormones facial hair wringer. Don't care. 2. Women have been (and in many places still are) marginalised in policy & practice and denied care on the basis of being female. Again, I don't assume that middle class American kids from loving families are the most vulnerable population in society that they require tissue paper delicacy and lies. 3. So no, don't tell me how I 'would' feel, I'm telling you how I feel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 We had a short-term employee who identified as trans. I had very little interaction with this person. The person was very very obviously male but identified as a woman. So I tried to remember to use the person's preferred pronouns. But did I slip up once? Yes I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, Sneezyone said: I see it. I understand it. I don't have any respect for elevating it over the lived experiences of other, MORE marginalized people. And, you're right. I am not always nice. Most of the time I am. Not always. I lose patience easily. Yes I agree with that. It does not serve you well. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, LMD said: 1. I don't give a shiny sh!t if people perceive me as male, I know who and what I am I don't need outside validation. I've been through the unbalanced hormones facial hair wringer. Don't care. 2. Women have been (and in many places still are) marginalised in policy & practice and denied care on the basis of being female. Again, I don't assume that middle class American kids from loving families are the most vulnerable population in society that they require tissue paper delicacy and lies. 3. So no, don't tell me how I 'would' feel, I'm telling you how I feel. What makes you think trans=middle class American kids from loving families? The people I was describing are NEITHER. Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 21 minutes ago, Heartstrings said: Ive mentioned before misgendering someone when I worked fast food as a teenager. On first glance I thought it was man, but was corrected. I don't think it was a trans person, I think it was just a more "butch" woman in motorcycle clothes. I can't imagine standing there and arguing with them about their gender. Where is the natural end in that? She doesn't have to show the teenager at McDs her genitals to be called ma'am instead of sir. Which brings us back to genitals again... Geez. I would bet my house that the butch woman biker also doesn't give a crap if someone says 'he' or 'sir' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said: What makes you think trans=middle class American kids from loving families? The people I was describing are NEITHER. Statistics 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PronghornD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 5 minutes ago, Scarlett said: I would definitely try to do that but I think it would be very difficult. It is difficult, but it's a good brain exercise. It may help keep your elderly brain flexible lol. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Gaslighting is not brain exercise. Wow. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 1 minute ago, LMD said: Statistics Statistics don't always represent or reflect individuals/anecdotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, PronghornD said: It is difficult, but it's a good brain exercise. It may help keep your elderly brain flexible lol. You think I should just practice this in case I ever come across a trans person? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PronghornD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, LMD said: Gaslighting is not brain exercise. Wow. I said nothing about gaslighting. That was about the brain exercise of AVOIDING using pronouns altogether. It is an alternative to what some of you perceive to be gaslighting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, LMD said: I would bet my house that the butch woman biker also doesn't give a crap if someone says 'he' or 'sir' MY F-ING DAUGHTER DOES. Pay up. Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 1 minute ago, PronghornD said: I really would suggest avoiding pronouns altogether if you cannot in good conscience use the pronouns that people asked you to use. This is, in practice, where I tend end up--avoiding pronouns, or using they (since I see no actual linguistic need for gendered pronouns). Though doing even that sometimes feels like very much meeting the feminine expectation of always accommodating everyone...and I'm not a fan of that (gendered in the sense sociologists and feminists used a few decades ago!) expectation. Using she for someone I know to be male feels utterly dishonest. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PronghornD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, Scarlett said: You think I should just practice this in case I ever come across a trans person? It is up to you. You can exercise your brain in preparation if you so choose. Or you can wait until you need to do it and bumble along without previous exercise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 7 minutes ago, Scarlett said: Yes I agree with that. It does not serve you well. Actually, IRL, it means I don't suffer fools gladly, advocate for myself/others often, and don't waste time. It's a double edged sword. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said: That's not what LMD is discussing tho. It's in situations where repeated contact occurs, she feels it's her right and privilege to maintain employment WHILE refusing to use preferred pronouns. Lol Yes, having boundaries is my right. As for the rest, your projection your problem 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, LMD said: Lol Yes, having boundaries is my right. As for the rest, your projection your problem That's not projection, honey. That's response to provocation. In the real world, we recognize these things, as you know, cause conflicts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said: MY F-ING DAUGHTER DOES. Pay up. Your daughter is the butch woman biker that Prong accidentally misgendered as a teenager? Doubt Most of the butch lesbians I've known do not care at all, they are some of the most robust people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said: Actually, IRL, it means I don't suffer fools gladly, advocate for myself/others often, and don't waste time. It's a double edged sword. Shrug. This fool says it does not suit you well. You are a very intelligent woman. Mostly kind. This side of you so not pleasant. Or persuasive. Edited August 10, 2023 by Scarlett 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said: Statistics don't always represent or reflect individuals/anecdotes. No, they don't. They are helpful in a general discussion on social trends though. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, LMD said: Your daughter is the butch woman biker that Prong accidentally misgendered as a teenager? Doubt Most of the butch lesbians I've known do not care at all, they are some of the most robust people. My teenage daughter is most definitely a tattooed butch woman. Can't ride yet but does drive stick, and will ride when given the time and resources...because *I* ride. WTH does *robust* even mean in this context? That they should take the abuse of random people for shits and giggles? You are so offensive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 17 minutes ago, Heartstrings said: Which has to get weird to the point of absurdity. Insisting on calling a person in a skirt, heels, full make up and nails, a "he" and insisting on calling that person Benjamin when everyone else is calling them SallySue is going to get awkward. And I have not said any such thing But calling a male in inappropriately/unprofessionally sexualised clothing who performs degrading and sexist stereotypes 'she' feels equally absurd to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 5 minutes ago, PronghornD said: It is up to you. You can exercise your brain in preparation if you so choose. Or you can wait until you need to do it and bumble along without previous exercise. Honestly my brain is pretty full. I have no desire to be ugly or unkind, but I need to play the odds with regard to my efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PronghornD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, Scarlett said: Honestly my brain is pretty full. I have no desire to be ugly or unkind, but I need to play the odds with regard to my efforts. Understandable. The issues seem pretty theoretical until you are dealing with real people. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said: My teenage daughter is most definitely a tattooed butch woman. Can't ride yet but does drive stick, and will ride when given the time and resources...because *I* ride. WTH does *robust* even mean in this context? That they should take the abuse of random people for shits and giggles? You are so offensive. Are you saying that the accidental misgendering of a stranger years ago was abuse? I didn't bring up the scenario or your daughter. I have known many butch lesbians who don't at all mind being mistaken for men, they find it funny. Edited August 10, 2023 by LMD Wrong name 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 As an employer, with a person who is very very obviously male but is wearing a drag queen worthy dress and bad makeup (along with facial hair) while claiming to be a woman, going along may be more about avoiding employment litigation vs. actually viewing that person as a woman. Avoiding employment litigation is a justifiable goal IMO. That said, we also considered it prudent to not require biological females to work alone with this person at night. The person did not give off genuine benign vibes. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 11 minutes ago, PronghornD said: I said nothing about gaslighting. That was about the brain exercise of AVOIDING using pronouns altogether. It is an alternative to what some of you perceive to be gaslighting. Yes, sorry, I was unnecessarily snarky 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PronghornD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, LMD said: Are you saying that Prong's accidental misgendering of a stranger years ago was abuse? I didn't bring up the scenario or your daughter. I have known many butch lesbians who don't at all mind being mistaken for men, they find it funny. Are you thinking of me when you say "Prong"? Or is there someone named Prong? I don't think I talked about accidentally misgendering anyone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, PronghornD said: Are you thinking of me when you say "Prong"? Or is there someone named Prong? I don't think I talked about accidentally misgendering anyone. You are right, my apologies! Wrong poster! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, SKL said: As an employer, with a person who is very very obviously male but is wearing a drag queen worthy dress and bad makeup (along with facial hair) while claiming to be a woman, going along may be more about avoiding employment litigation vs. actually viewing that person as a woman. Avoiding employment litigation is a justifiable goal IMO. That said, we also considered it prudent to not require biological females to work alone with this person at night. The person did not give off genuine benign vibes. The law is is certainly important in protecting minority rights and dignity in an employment context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PronghornD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 Just now, LMD said: You are right, my apologies! Wrong poster! Speaking of the emotional impact of using the wrong name......lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, LMD said: Are you saying that Prong's accidental misgendering of a stranger years ago was abuse? I didn't bring up the scenario or your daughter. I have known many butch lesbians who don't at all mind being mistaken for men, they find it funny. No. I am saying, and I have said, the insistence on misgendering (if that is TRULY a conviction you cannot deviate from lest violate your deeply held convictions) is antithetical to employment because it is abuse/harrassment. Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said: No. I am saying, and I have said, the insistence on misgendering (if that is TRULY a conviction you cannot deviate from lest violate your deeply held convictions) is antithetical to employment because it is abuse. Ethically, I would consider demanding someone lie to be abuse. If laws make such demands, the laws are abusive. Edited August 10, 2023 by maize 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said: No. I am saying, and I have said, the insistence on misgendering (if that is TRULY a conviction you cannot deviate from lest violate your deeply held convictions) is antithetical to employment because it is abuse/harrassment. That is not what I have said. You're arguing with a straw man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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