Question about diversity/inclusion language

[Scarlett]

13 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes, thanks, I know this.

Having experienced it, I also know that 'he' is not the same as verbal or emotional abuse. 

It's truly gross to me that people equate a courtesy with abuse. 

At worst, 'he' is impolite..

Agree,  having suffered physical and mental and emotional abuse from my XH it is gross to equate that with someone calling me a pronoun I don’t want. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I know I'm in the minority about this on my "side" but I don't think this rhetoric is actually helpful.  The people that would be persuaded by it are already on the "side" that doesn't need it.  The people who are up in arms about pronouns are just going to fight about the definition of violence too.  Trying to redefine the word violence to include words is not a winning or persuasive argument for our "side".   

 

It's rude not to address someone as they wish to be addressed.  Its uncaring.  Its mean. It shows that you value your ideology over the feelings of the actual person in front of you.  It definitely shows what kind of person you are. Its not actually an act of violence as the word is commonly understood. 

 

I think this understanding of violence is fundamentally flawed and at odds with all evidence to the contrary. Verbal provocation/violence is typically understood when the most extreme slurs are used. We know that. Reasonable people understand that. Those people who don't see any violence in it don't attach malice to their words. That has zero to do with their impact.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Sneezyone

[SHP]

 I was unaware that there wasn't a wide spread understanding of microaggressions (such as misgendering) and the harm they can cause.

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by SHP

[SHP]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I think this understanding of violence is fundamentally flawed and at odds with all evidence to the contrary. Verbal provocation/violence is typically understood when the most extreme slurs are used. We know that. Reasonable people understand that. Those people who don't see any violence in it don't attach malice to their words. That has zero to do with their impact.

This is what I was trying to say, thank you for wording it better

[EKS]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

I didn't know about the medication part.

The vast majority of people don't--in the United States that is. 

[Heartstrings]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I think this understanding of violence is fundamentally flawed and at odds with all evidence to the contrary. Verbal provocation/violence is typically understood when the most extreme slurs are used. We know that. Reasonable people understand that.

I just don't think its useful in this context, when discussing pronouns.   They are already dug in to certain definitions, trying to get them to agree to even more definitions isn't going to happen, it just gives a new direction for them to be dug in on.  

Like I said, those that understand don't need to be persuaded, those that don't, can't/won't be persuaded anyway. 

[LMD]

All of that cuts both ways. The person requesting pronouns is not the only one who deserves respect, nor are they even always the most vulnerable person in the conversation. Treating them like tissue paper doesn't help them. Running into a kind, polite but unapologetic disagreement is not violence.

Eta - As someone who has seen real violence, both physical and not, up close and personal, and as someone who has seen extraordinarily privileged, supported & encouraged people weaponise polite boundary-holding as violence, this smug 'we're the good ones who understand' routine is cloying.

Edited August 9, 2023 by LMD

[SHP]

 

12 minutes ago, LMD said:

It depends. I would find it a violation of my values & dignity as a woman to call a male presenting with sexist, pornified, fetishised, misogynist stereotypes as 'she'. That is my pattern recognition kicking in, and so I won't gaslight myself to ignore it.

In other instances, it depends on context. Mostly I call people 'you' & treat them with respect in direct conversation and don't gossip about them later.

 

Ok. What about someone who is closer to passing? What about someone you called 'she' asking to be called 'he'?

Is there a difference? What is it?

Serious question, I almost exclusively only see the conversation in the example presented. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by SHP

[PronghornD]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

People suffered a wide range of mental health stressors in the past as now - it's drawing a VERY long bow to put that down to gender issues as we understand them today. 

This is kind of a straw man, I think. I wondered in a rather mild, understated way if gender issues were present in some ancestors who struggled. I did not say they were the only mental health stressors those people experienced or that they were the definitive reason for the problems of the majority of these people.

My mother did tell me decades ago about someone in her generation who perhaps "had the wrong hormone levels in the womb." This person seemed to identify more with boys than girls growing up.

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I just don't think its useful in this context, when discussing pronouns.   They are already dug in to certain definitions, trying to get them to agree to even more definitions isn't going to happen, it just gives a new direction for them to be dug in on.  

Like I said, those that understand don't need to be persuaded, those that don't, can't/won't be persuaded anyway. 

They're already dug in on lots of things. It doesn't mean everyone else has to cosign it or forgo pointing out the obvious flaws in that stance.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Sneezyone

[LMD]

5 minutes ago, SHP said:

Given the response I recieved from asking the question 

 

Ok. What about someone who is closer to passing? What about someone you called 'she' asking to be called 'he'?

Is there a difference? What is it?

Serious question, I almost exclusively only see the conversation in the example presented. 

The difference is my boundary. As I said before: The ability to identify and express material reality is a hard won boundary for me. I'm not going around yelling 'man man' at transwomen or anything ridiculous like that, I am polite, respectful, and hold my own boundaries. Asking me 'but what if they tried to violate your boundaries more convincingly' isn't exactly comforting.

If those in the original example presented were more respectful of women's boundaries (physical & language), there'd be a whole lot more goodwill to go around.

[PronghornD]

23 minutes ago, LMD said:

It depends. I would find it a violation of my values & dignity as a woman to call a male presenting with sexist, pornified, fetishised, misogynist stereotypes as 'she'. That is my pattern recognition kicking in, and so I won't gaslight myself to ignore it.

 

Strange that I never manage to meet this type of trans person. And I have met quite a few trans people.

[LMD]

2 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

Strange that I never manage to meet this type of trans person. And I have met quite a few trans people.

Count yourself lucky then 

Eta - I assume you just haven't perpetrated wrong think & recieved the lovely porn soaked rape and death threats. Genuinely, lucky you.

Edited August 9, 2023 by LMD

[Indigo Blue]

3 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

This is kind of a straw man, I think. I wondered in a rather mild, understated way if gender issues were present in some ancestors who struggled. I did not say they were the only mental health stressors those people experienced or that they were the definitive reason for the problems of the majority of these people.

I thought your post was simply speculative. And it was a very interesting speculation. 

[LMD]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

They're already dug in on lots of things. It doesn't mean everyone else has to cosign it or forgo pointing out the obvious flaws in that stance.

The irony is just flabbergasting

[Sneezyone]

Just now, LMD said:

The irony is just flabbergasting

Did it steal your breath? Good.

Personally, I enforce MY BOUNDARIES by not engaging with those I don't want to engage with, not misgendering them to their face.

[LMD]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Did it steal your breath? Good.

Personally, I enforce MY BOUNDARIES by not engaging with those I don't want to engage with, not misgendering them to their face.

Please quote where did I say misgendering anyone to their face?

And feel free not to engage. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by LMD

[Danae]

42 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

I still believe this trend is largely a fad, and that this pronoun stuff will become mostly irrelevant fairly soon.  For that small minority for whom transition is needed, pronouns will be sorted by the person grooming, dressing, naming oneself, etc. in accordance with the new gender.  But to the extent people still use the "wrong pronoun," people should be able to roll with it ... just like non-trans people who are sometimes misgendered have to roll with it.

I still hope that gendered pronouns will eventually go the way of thee and thy and we can have a language that doesn’t require us to tag people by gender when it isn’t relevant to the conversation.  

[Scarlett]

I am super curious how it would come up that I would even need to use a pronoun when speaking to someone.  Seems like I would be saying ‘You’ to a person.  
 

Having never had one single interaction with a trans person I really have no clue why this is such a huge deal.  It seems manufactured quite frankly. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, LMD said:

Please quote where did I say misgendering anyone to their face?

And feel free not to engage. 

If your boundary includes the deliberate misgendering of people that would seem to suggest you'd be perfectly comfy doing that in person. If you're not, then it's just rage tweeting bluster and cowardice, not conviction.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Scarlett said:

I am super curious how it would come up that I would even need to use a pronoun when speaking to someone.  Seems like I would be saying ‘You’ to a person.  
 

Having never had one single interaction with a trans person I really have no clue why this is such a huge deal.  It seems manufactured quite frankly. 

In my workplace, I have had to interact with trans individuals and refer to statements they made in meetings, etc., by their correct pronouns.

[LMD]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

If your boundary includes the deliberate misgendering of people that would seem to suggest you'd be perfectly comfy doing that in person. If you're not, then it's just rage tweeting bluster and cowardice, not conviction.

Finding a mutually kind and respectful compromise is 'bluster and cowardice'? Interesting.

[PronghornD]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I am super curious how it would come up that I would even need to use a pronoun when speaking to someone.  Seems like I would be saying ‘You’ to a person.  
 

Having never had one single interaction with a trans person I really have no clue why this is such a huge deal.  It seems manufactured quite frankly. 

I find it occurs often when you have more than two people in a conversation. It wouldn't happen much in a one-on-one conversation.

Think about being in the kitchen working together. Someone has their hands full, so you might say, "Could you open the refrigerator for her?" It's that kind of thing.

Edited August 9, 2023 by PronghornD

[Sneezyone]

Just now, LMD said:

Finding a mutually kind and respectful compromise is 'bluster and cowardice'? Interesting.

There is nothing kind or respectful about sitting in a staff meeting and refusing to use someone's preferred method of address.

[Scarlett]

Just now, PronghornD said:

I find it occurs often when you have more than three people in a conversation. It wouldn't happen much in a one-on-one conversation.

Think about being in the kitchen working together. Someone has their hands full, so you might say, "Could you open the refrigerator for her?" It's that kind of thing.

I see. Highly unlikely this will ever occur in my life.  Or occur in the life of a great many people.  

[LMD]

There is nothing kind about forcing colleagues to violate their conscience 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, LMD said:

There is nothing kind about forcing colleagues to violate their conscience 

If their conscience doesn't allow them to respect the HUMANITY of the other person or their preferred method of address, they're not colleagues, they're merely coworkers...and probably not for long.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Sneezyone

[PronghornD]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I see. Highly unlikely this will ever occur in my life.  Or occur in the life of a great many people.  

You never know. I did not expect it would occur in my life, and now it does regularly. You never know what adventures are ahead of you!

[Scarlett]

Just now, PronghornD said:

You never know. I did not expect it would occur in my life, and now it does regularly. You never know what adventures are ahead of you!

Maybe.  I would probably just get a pass because I am old and religious.  😂

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Maybe.  I would probably just get a pass because I am old and religious.  😂

No. You wouldn't.

[LMD]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

If their conscience doesn't allow them to respect the HUMANITY of the other person or their preferred method of address, they're not colleagues.

If someone has convinced themselves that others have to lie to 'respect their humanity' then we're at an impass.

Eta - to be clear I think this is an example of treating trans people like tissue paper and is ultimately cruel to encourage them to believe everyone hates them if they don't believe exactly the same as them.

Edited August 9, 2023 by LMD

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

No. You wouldn't.

Lol ok.  That is unfortunate.  

Edited August 9, 2023 by Scarlett

[SKL]

Just now, Danae said:

I still hope that gendered pronouns will eventually go the way of thee and thy and we can have a language that doesn’t require us to tag people by gender when it isn’t relevant to the conversation.  

For the most part, this isn't even an issue, because nobody calls a person "he/she" when speaking directly to that person.  In a group setting such as a classroom, it would make more sense to use the person's name, because "he/she/they" may not be clear as to specifically who is being discussed.

I have nothing against the idea of gender-neutral pronouns (which most English pronouns are), but the reality is that we are hardwired from a very early age to think "he/she/him/her," and there's no practical way to bleach that out and start over.  Even folks with the most pro-trans intentions mix up sometimes.

[PronghornD]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Maybe.  I would probably just get a pass because I am old and religious.  😂

Well, that just means they might suppress the feelings that arise. But if the person is a relative, you may start noticing some empty places at the table next family reunion.

Personally, I'm old and religious too. That's not a good reason to avoid grappling with issues. Stay young in mind and engage with the new and bewildering things that impact those around you. I personally believe God has called us to that kind of love.

[LMD]

Engaging with doesn't = leave your brain, lived experience and conscience at the door

[PronghornD]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

For the most part, this isn't even an issue, because nobody calls a person "he/she" when speaking directly to that person.  In a group setting such as a classroom, it would make more sense to use the person's name, because "he/she/they" may not be clear as to specifically who is being discussed.

I have nothing against the idea of gender-neutral pronouns (which most English pronouns are), but the reality is that we are hardwired from a very early age to think "he/she/him/her," and there's no practical way to bleach that out and start over.  Even folks with the most pro-trans intentions mix up sometimes.

An alternative is to avoid pronouns altogether. Not a bad idea if you can't stomach using the requested pronouns.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, LMD said:

If someone has convinced themselves that others have to lie to 'respect their humanity' then we're at an impass.

Eta - to be clear I think this is an example of treating trans people like tissue paper and is ultimately cruel to encourage them to believe everyone hates them if they don't believe exactly the same as them.

This is an example of treating trans people with the same dignity and respect that you yourself receive when interacting with others. If someone deliberately, and repeatedly referred to you as 'he', and you were marginalized in policy and practice, denied healthcare (another issue a coworker is dealing with for a minor child) you would feel otherwise.

[PronghornD]

Just now, LMD said:

Engaging with doesn't = leave your brain, lived experience and conscience at the door

Oh, I never suggested that at all! I'm not sure where you got that. I was responding to someone who thought they were too old and religious to be expected to grapple with this stuff.

[Scarlett]

My mom named me Boys name/beautiful female middle name and proceeded to call me by a nick name of my middle name from my birth.  So I have sooooo many different people who call me different names.  When I was 12 I boldly decided to go by my first name.  Now, I am 58 and I still have family and old friends who call me by that nick name.   Not one time in all these years have I been offended or felt I was suffering violence.  I answer to what I am called.  A few people get all flustered and ask what they should call me.   I say, ‘call me what comes to your mind. ‘
 

So yeah, I have a huge problem understanding the outrage over pronouns.  
 

 

[maize]

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

There is nothing kind or respectful about sitting in a staff meeting and refusing to use someone's preferred method of address.

There is nothing kind or respectful about sitting in a staff meeting with the expectation of controlling the speech of the people around you or expecting them to (according to their understanding of truth and significance) lie on behalf of your comfort.

Respect cannot be a one-way street, expected of thee but not of me.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

My mom named me Boys name/beautiful female middle name and proceeded to call me by a nick name of my middle name from my birth.  So I have sooooo many different people who call me different names.  When I was 12 I boldly decided to go by my first name.  Now, I am 58 and I still have family and old friends who call me by that nick name.   Not one time in all these years have I been offended or felt I was suffering violence.  I answer to what I am called.  A few people get all flustered and ask what they should call me.   I say, ‘call me what comes to your mind. ‘
 

So yeah, I have a huge problem understanding the outrage over pronouns.  
 

 

The fact that you don't see the harm because you've not been socially marginalized and harmed by bigots is great. Move beyond what you know. Meet new people. It helps.

2 minutes ago, maize said:

There is nothing kind or respectful about sitting in a staff meeting with the expectation of controlling the speech of the people around you or expecting them to (according to their understanding of truth and significance) lie on behalf of your comfort.

Respect cannot be a one-way street, expected of thee but not of me.

Employers have the right to control the speech of people who operate under their umbrella of authority/imprimatur of endorsement. Period. Full stop. You want to fully control your speech, work for yourself or don't work. Employees in our workplace aren't permitted to curse, abuse or otherwise harass their colleagues. If they do, and insist on continuing to do so, they will be terminated.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Sneezyone

[SHP]

4 minutes ago, LMD said:

The difference is my boundary. As I said before: The ability to identify and express material reality is a hard won boundary for me. I'm not going around yelling 'man man' at transwomen or anything ridiculous like that, I am polite, respectful, and hold my own boundaries. Asking me 'but what if they tried to violate your boundaries more convincingly' isn't exactly comforting.

If those in the original example presented were more respectful of women's boundaries (physical & language), there'd be a whole lot more goodwill to go around.

Ah, I think I see. I do not mean to come across that I was invalidating your experience.

Your perception of the person and their presentation is valid.

The person stating they prefer a different pronouns is also valid.

The two can exist. 

Them stating they prefer a different pronouns does not invalidate your perception. It is a statement that their internal experiences do not align with external perceptions of them. It doesn't make it gaslighting yourself to acknowledge their internal experience differs from your external perception and that you will show respect by honoring their request. 

 

[PronghornD]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

So yeah, I have a huge problem understanding the outrage over pronouns.  
 

 

You may not possess the capacity to understand. There is a lot that most of us don't understand about other people. However, you can still be considerate and use the requested pronouns or no pronouns.

[Heartstrings]

33 minutes ago, SHP said:

 

Ok. What about someone who is closer to passing? What about someone you called 'she' asking to be called 'he'?

Is there a difference? What is it?

Serious question, I almost exclusively only see the conversation in the example presented. 

Ive mentioned before misgendering someone when I worked fast food as a teenager.  On first glance I thought it was man, but was corrected.  I don't think it was a trans person, I think it was just a more "butch" woman in motorcycle clothes.  I can't imagine standing there and arguing with them about their gender.  Where is the natural end in that? She doesn't have to show the teenager at McDs her genitals to be called ma'am instead of sir.  Which brings us back to genitals again...  Geez.  

[Scarlett]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

The fact that you don't see the harm because you've not been socially marginalized and harmed by bigots is great. Move beyond what you know. Meet new people. It helps.

 

Lol, that is very hilarious, you saying I have never been socially marginalized. I absolutely have for a couple of huge reasons.  Guess what I did? I found my people and I find my comfort in them.  I don’t expect the world to cater to the me that is different.  

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, LMD said:

... treating trans people like tissue paper and is ultimately cruel to encourage them to believe everyone hates them if they don't believe exactly the same as them.

I agree.  Humans view the world differently in so many ways.  That isn't hate.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Lol, that is very hilarious, you saying I have never been socially marginalized. I absolutely have for a couple of huge reasons.  Guess what I did? I found my people and I find my comfort in them.  I don’t expect the world to cater to the me that is different.  

MOVE BEYOND WHAT YOU 'KNOW', Scarlett. It's severely limited.

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

An alternative is to avoid pronouns altogether. Not a bad idea if you can't stomach using the requested pronouns.

Do  you ever use gendered pronouns for anyone who hasn't first told you their preferred pronouns?  If so, how do you decide which pronouns to use?

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, PronghornD said:

You may not possess the capacity to understand. There is a lot that most of us don't understand about other people. However, you can still be considerate and use the requested pronouns or no pronouns.

I don’t know.  I don’t really see it as considerate to deny a reality.  I see it as bullying to expect me to.  I don’t expect to ever be in such a situation…..but I can’t see myself just bending to another person’s skewed reality…oh wait maybe if I see them as mentally ill…..which brings this full circle for me.  
 

I would never intentionally goad someone…..  but I can’t imagine calling a dog a cat etc.  

[PronghornD]

Just now, SKL said:

Do  you ever use gendered pronouns for anyone who hasn't first told you their preferred pronouns?  If so, how do you decide which pronouns to use?

I make my best guess, and I would apologize and change if I got it wrong. If I was really unsure of how the person was presenting, I might use "they." At this point, "they" comes pretty naturally to me as a pronoun for unknown gender.