Question about diversity/inclusion language

[Danae]

2 minutes ago, LMD said:

Can you really not state 'women shouldn't be caged with male rapists' without... what? Being seen as a trump supporter? Why would you give that goal to one political party? I don't give an eff who does it just get the male rapists out of the women's prisons now.

1). Most of the male rapists in women’s prison are on staff.  
2). I didn’t mention a particular candidate.  It kind of sucks that there’s so many people I could have been talking about that you don’t know which one I was.  

[LMD]

Just now, Danae said:

1). Most of the male rapists in women’s prison are on staff.  
2). I didn’t mention a particular candidate.  It kind of sucks that there’s so many people I could have been talking about that you don’t know which one I was.  

1. So... we should put more male rapists in because the women are getting raped anyway? More than one thing can be bad. Feminists have been fighting against male prison guards in women's prisons for a looooooong time too.

2. I'm not American. I don't follow American politics. More than one person can be bad at a time.

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

I think it's fair to believe that the political  situation is so terrible that you'll defend absurdities lest you give aid to the enemy. 

It's not fair or just to ask everyone else to do the same.

It's batshit crazy we have this rapid reorganisation of society around reified gender, and I don't often feel like just sucking that up. So I don't. 

Consider it  part of my healing from my tragic sad, shitty life, as sneezy so kindly put it....

Do not tell me the sky is green and expect me to repeat that.

Nah, fam, it's blue.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[Melissa Louise]

Anyway, where were we before the bizarre PCOS interjection? 

[LMD]

Sure, vote for the one defending absurdities over the one who you believe is a rapist. Or don't vote. Or whatever.

What has that got to do with here on a homeschool, classical education board though? I would think that nuanced, persuasive discussion here would prevent/temper extremism? On both sides.

Whataboutism, ad hominems, political jabs (which I don't get because I'm not american) & insults aren't helping.

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Ginevra said:

Sh!t got weird in here. It almost seemed like mentioning P@rn did it. 

Ah, here. 

 

[LMD]

And if I've said something objectively incorrect or hateful please point it out so I can apologise and correct it. 

[PronghornD]

5 hours ago, Ginevra said:

The bolded is one of the faulty narratives going in LGBTQIA circles, and has been for several years now. There once was only two biological factors that would lead to an intersex diagnosis - ambiguous genitalia at birth and/or anomalies of chromosomes. But this has been changing for a while. Now, lots of young people think they are intersex because of feelings about things. 
 

In some ways, the narrative seems designed to push this conclusion. At a diversity conference I attended, the speaker said there were three “areas” of attraction that we experience - s€xual attraction (what sex organs you want to be involved with), romantic attraction (not necessarily party to the first), and “emotional attraction,” (not necessarily party to the first two), which is the silliest of all. IMHO, the point of all this hair-splitting is to make a case that everybody is “a little bit something”. Like when someone who has only ever played out a hetero  s€xual reality affirming that, actually, they are about 60% “bi-passing”. So because they - I don’t know - think their best (girl) friend looks really great dressed up for the club, or they have ever fantasized about playing with another female body, they think that means they *are* some category of not hetero. Besides, hetero is so boringly ordinary. 
 

I think our actions bear out what we are, which then reinforces our identity of what we are. 

I am actually not talking about what you are talking about at all. I am talking about people whose parents reported that their children ended up, surprisingly, being intersex. A medical conclusion not based on feelings.

[Danae]

25 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

But goodness, I'm sorry children's health care and women's rights are tiring! 

OK, I know that's snarky and unhelpful. Sorry. Momentary pissed-offness got through. 

 

We have school districts that are re-instituting gender specific dress codes, and when people suggest that maybe not having gender specific dress codes would be better they are accused of supporting mutilating children’s genitals and rapists in women’s prison.  
 

So yes, I find the fact that every discussion of anything gender related jumps to medicalization of minors and rape annoying.  It’s possible to be against both of those and still want to talk about issues affecting non-incarcerated adults sometimes.  
 

edit:  and yeah, I just used a school example in the same post I said I wanted to talk about adults.  I should have gone back to the workplace one instead.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Danae

[Melissa Louise]

 

3 minutes ago, Danae said:

We have school districts that are re-instituting gender specific dress codes, and when people suggest that maybe not having gender specific dress codes would be better they are accused of supporting mutilating children’s genitals and rapists in women’s prison.  
 

So yes, I find the fact that every discussion of anything gender related jumps to medicalization of minors and rape annoying.  It’s possible to be against both of those and still want to talk about issues affecting non-incarcerated adults sometimes.  

It might help if people actually stated they were against those things? 

How about 'no gendered dress codes AND, oh boy, isn't the evidence base for transition weak?'

Or 'gee, there's a real increase in GD - we need to care for these kids AND we can question why it's happening.'

Etc.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[LMD]

Sure, that's fair Danae. Though I'm not an American politician and I'm not for gender specific dress codes in schools. See, nuanced conversation and we find ground we agree on.

But the prison thing only came up after someone asked 'why do you care'

There is at least one male sex offender in the women's prison in my state right now so I care about that.

[Melissa Louise]

I answered 'why do you care' in good faith. 

People can disagree on whether I should care, but, sad to be me, I do, for reasons stated. 

[KSera]

Honestly, Melissa’s voice on raising gender dysphoric children who didn’t transition is a valuable one to have here. In my world, that’s not a route people take, and I don’t hear that perspective. I do have a lot of experience with loved, supported, medically transitioned kids (well, teens and young adults). 

Edited August 8, 2023 by KSera
Typo

[Danae]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

It might help if people actually stated they were against those things? 

 

 

Okay.  I am against prison rape, in any form.  I think when people are in state custody it is the state’s responsibility to protect their rights, including their right to bodily autonomy.  I’m also damn close to a prison abolitionist and think removing trans people from women’s prisons isn’t remotely enough to protect women entangled in the criminal justice system.  

When it comes to medical treatment, I’m against legislation.  I think complex medical situations should be decided by the people involved with their doctors, their parents if they are minors, and any advisors they wish to consult.  I don’t see the push to medical transition for gender-questioning kids that some on this thread have described, but I suspect this is vastly different in different communities.  I’m still against legislating medical decisions.  

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Danae said:

Okay.  I am against prison rape, in any form.  I think when people are in state custody it is the state’s responsibility to protect their rights, including their right to bodily autonomy.  I’m also damn close to a prison abolitionist and think removing trans people from women’s prisons isn’t remotely enough to protect women entangled in the criminal justice system.  

When it comes to medical treatment, I’m against legislation.  I think complex medical situations should be decided by the people involved with their doctors, their parents if they are minors, and any advisors they wish to consult.  I don’t see the push to medical transition for gender-questioning kids that some on this thread have described, but I suspect this is vastly different in different communities.  I’m still against legislating medical decisions.  

OK, who said it was enough to remove males with a trans ID? 

I wish the medical profession had been as rigorous as you might think on this issue.

[Danae]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

OK, who said it was enough to remove males with a trans ID? 

No one.  I was telling you what I think.  
 

[Not_a_Number]

The idea that legislation has anything to do with this cultural moment seems to me misguided.

ETA: to expand on this a bit, I don’t think legislation created the movement and I don’t think legislation could fix much of the harm (in either direction) that is being done.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Danae]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

The idea that legislation has anything to do with this cultural moment seems to me misguided.

Then we live in such vastly different worlds I’m not even sure how we are posting on the same message board.

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Danae said:

Then we live in such vastly different worlds I’m not even sure how we are posting on the same message board.

 

I mean, people are reacting to the cultural moment with legislation. I think the horse is out of the barn whatever side of the issue you’re on, that’s all.

[PronghornD]

18 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The idea that legislation has anything to do with this cultural moment seems to me misguided.

ETA: to expand on this a bit, I don’t think legislation created the movement and I don’t think legislation could fix much of the harm (in either direction) that is being done.

A case could be made that legislation is making things worse for families that are struggling directly with this cultural moment.

[LMD]

16 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The idea that legislation has anything to do with this cultural moment seems to me misguided.

ETA: to expand on this a bit, I don’t think legislation created the movement and I don’t think legislation could fix much of the harm (in either direction) that is being done.

Legislation, or legal decisions, have been very helpful in the UK. 

I don't know, I think legislation helps with norms/overton window but it's very chicken & egg. I think grass roots discussion helps some politicians realise the window is moving and get brave, and I think the reverse happens too - brave public figures make space for everyday people to speak too.

At the moment though, I think the conversation is so fraught and confused that legislation will probably make things worse...

[Melissa Louise]

22 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I mean, people are reacting to the cultural moment with legislation. I think the horse is out of the barn whatever side of the issue you’re on, that’s all.

The horses are being pulled back into the barn on child transition, particularly blockers. That's good. Practice was way, way ahead of evidence there. 

I think other aspects are being pulled back as well.  Sporting bodies, for example, are making their own codes and increasingly looking to open and female only categories. 

This movement - freedom from.discrimination in the public sphere for people who present differently from their sex - would be stronger if it did not rely on the literal belief of others in untruth, and I hope activists get savvy and start walking back some of their wilder metaphorical claims.

I'd include the outsized importance of pronouns in the workplace and elsewhere as one of those wilder games. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[Sneezyone]

47 minutes ago, KSera said:

Honestly, Melissa’s voice on raising gender dysphoric children who didn’t transition is a valuable one to have here. In my world, that’s not a route people take, and I don’t hear that perspective. I do have a lot of experience with loved, supported, medically transitioned kids (well, teens and young adults). 

If that’s where it stopped, yes.

[Sneezyone]

10 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

A case could be made that legislation is making things worse for families that are struggling directly with this cultural moment.

Particularly military families that can’t choose where they live or which cultural totems govern their local lives. It’s a major issue that all states aren’t safe for all families.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

If that’s where it stopped, yes.

Report if you've got a problem, otherwise it might be time to put up.

I decide when I stop, except if I break board rules in which case a mod decides. 

Or, you can keep getting personal. Up to you to decide on your interpersonal  conduct. 

The chance I'm going to be voluntarily silent on the topic when some else raises it is nil.

9 minutes ago, LMD said:

Legislation, or legal decisions, have been very helpful in the UK. 

I don't know, I think legislation helps with norms/overton window but it's very chicken & egg. I think grass roots discussion helps some politicians realise the window is moving and get brave, and I think the reverse happens too - brave public figures make space for everyday people to speak too.

At the moment though, I think the conversation is so fraught and confused that legislation will probably make things worse...

Legislation is helpful in terms of anti-discrimination too. 

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Report if you've got a problem, otherwise it might be time to put up.

I decide when I stop, except if I break board rules in which case a mod decides. 

Or, you can keep getting personal. Up to you to decide on your interpersonal  conduct. 

The chance I'm going to be voluntarily silent on the topic when some else raises it is nil.

Legislation is helpful in terms of anti-discrimination too. 

Be well. Srsly. I wish you all the best.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Be well. Srsly. I wish you all the best.

You have a very funny way of showing it. 

Life has taught me to trust actions, not words. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

You have a very funny way of showing it. 

Life has taught me to trust actions, not words. 

When I make it to AUS again we can speak in person. I can’t think of any other actions I could  or have taken WRT your life.

[LMD]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

When I make it to AUS again we can speak in person. I can’t think of any other actions I could  or have taken WRT your life.

Not using her vulnerable personal info to try and shut her up would be a good start

[Sneezyone]

Just now, LMD said:

Not using her vulnerable personal info to try and shut her up would be a good start

Tit-tat. Melissa’s a big girl and can speak for herself.

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

When I make it to AUS again we can speak in person. I can’t think of any other actions I could  or have taken WRT your life.

If you make it to AU, please do feel free to get in touch for a coffee or whatever. I think you'll find Im not the anti trans Boogeyman of imagination. 

2 minutes ago, LMD said:

Not using her vulnerable personal info to try and shut her up would be a good start

Ah, ty but no need. 

I make that semi-public.

I agree on not using it, but it's not private. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

When I make it to AUS again we can speak in person. I can’t think of any other actions I could  or have taken WRT your life.

You know, I thought the idea that words can hurt is one (rightfully) heavily promoted by the trans community…

Words are actions. And from my perspective, you’re being very unkind.

[Terabith]

Everything just seems pointless and hopeless these days.  If we can’t talk about this productively here, I think I’m in favor of the giant meteor taking us all out.  
 

There is just no point.  

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Terabith said:

Everything just seems pointless and hopeless these days.  If we can’t talk about this productively here, I think I’m in favor of the giant meteor taking us all out.  
 

There is just no point.  

I’m sorry, Terabith :-/. It’s really depressing when issues that affect you personally become polarized.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

You know, I thought the idea that words can hurt is one (rightfully) heavily promoted by the trans community…

Words are actions. And from my perspective, you’re being very unkind.

I may be. You may be right. I also have a heart for people who can’t speak for themselves and we don’t have a trans voice here anymore. That person was run off, in part, by Melissa and LMD. The history is important. Rather than give in to fatalism, I choose to fight back. Fair or foul, that’s my stance.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Terabith said:

Everything just seems pointless and hopeless these days.  If we can’t talk about this productively here, I think I’m in favor of the giant meteor taking us all out.  
 

There is just no point.  

Well, that's my general starting point, lol, and I talk myself around/up from there.

 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I may be. You may be right. I also have a heart for people who can’t speak for themselves and we don’t have a trans voice here anymore. That person was run off, in part, by Melissa and LMD. The history is important.

No. I did not run anyone off. 

It would be a really good action to retract that lie. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

No. I did not run anyone off. 

It would be a really good action to retract that lie. 

I will not retract my OPINION.

[Not_a_Number]

As someone who has come in for a fair amount of disapprobation, I’ll say it would be unfair to say anyone ran me off if I left. 

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I will not retract my OPINION.

It's an opinion with no basis in fact. 

And spreading it makes you no better than anyone else who uses that tactic. 

It's actually beneath you. 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

As someone who has come in for a fair amount of disapprobation, I’ll say it would be unfair to say anyone ran me off if I left. 

Well, it's just not true. Besides which, no-one here has that power. 

I'm finding the whole me and LMD-focus a bit bizarre, tbh. 

 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

As someone who has come in for a fair amount of disapprobation, I’ll say it would be unfair to say anyone ran me off if I left. 

I love that for you. Some of us are made of extra stern stuff. It’s also for us to recognize that ANY thread that touches on US culture these days often gets co-opted by folks who don’t even live in the US and their pet issues/beefs. My personal view is that US residents (at least those regularly posting here) are more cognizant of the nuances here and can have more effective and productive conversations without that interference.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

I love that for you. Some of us are made of extra stern stuff. It’s also for to recognize that ANY thread that touches on US culture these cause often gets co-opted by folks who don’t even live in the US and their pet issues/beefs. My personal view is that US residents (at least those regularly posting here) are more cognizant of the nuances here and can have more effective and productive conversations without that interference.

I’d say that anyone with gender dysphoric kids will have relevant views to share.

ETA: anyway, this isn’t worth litigating further, in my opinion.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I love that for you. Some of us are made of extra stern stuff. It’s also for to recognize that ANY thread that touches on US culture these cause often gets co-opted by folks who don’t even live in the US and their pet issues/beefs. My personal view is that US residents (at least those regularly posting here) are more cognizant of the nuances here and can have more effective and productive conversations without that interference.

My suggestion to you, then, would be to ask the mods if you can restrict conversation in Chat to US residents. 

Truth doesn't vary by nation. The sky's blue here too. 

 

 

 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

My suggestion to you, then, would be to ask the mods if you can restrict conversation in Chat to US residents. 

Truth doesn't vary by nation. The sky's blue here too. 

 

 

 

I did that, in the thread title. You posted anyway. 

[LMD]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I love that for you. Some of us are made of extra stern stuff. It’s also for to recognize that ANY thread that touches on US culture these cause often gets co-opted by folks who don’t even live in the US and their pet issues/beefs. My personal view is that US residents (at least those regularly posting here) are more cognizant of the nuances here and can have more effective and productive conversations without that interference.

I did not run anyone off what a load of crap. If we're playing that game then I know plenty who have been 'run off' by the be kind side which will not deign any actually diverse opinion - or what you call 'interference'

this issue is not US specific, I don't really comment on US specific politics.

[Sneezyone]

I really need to go to bed. G’night/G’day! Top o’ the morning, which ever is applicable. I’m not mad or upset or annoyed, even. Have a good…whatever. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[Melissa Louise]

22 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I did that, in the thread title. You posted anyway. 

Ha, you used a /voters of good faith, which I am. 

Next time, say 'US voters of good faith'. 

[Ginevra]

6 hours ago, PronghornD said:

I am actually not talking about what you are talking about at all. I am talking about people whose parents reported that their children ended up, surprisingly, being intersex. A medical conclusion not based on feelings.

What do you mean by the bolded? Do you mean they were born with ambiguous genetalia? Or do you mean they “ended up” intersex some other way? Because the current crop of young people with a beard but not a p*nis is actually creating the reality of many more intersex people. 
 

And I agree with LMD and Melissa that PCOS and low estrogen are NOT intersex conditions. They are conditions of the female sex. 

[Ginevra]

5 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I may be. You may be right. I also have a heart for people who can’t speak for themselves and we don’t have a trans voice here anymore. That person was run off, in part, by Melissa and LMD. The history is important. Rather than give in to fatalism, I choose to fight back. Fair or foul, that’s my stance.

We’re all adults here. If someone “ran off” because of two posters then that’s really just silly.