Question about diversity/inclusion language

[regentrude]

41 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I grew up in the 80s. Do you know how many transgender youths I knew of? Zero.

That line of argument doesn't prove anything. I did not know any (openly) gay people until I was way into adulthood. That doesn't mean gay people didn't exist back then. It just meant they weren't out. 

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Idalou said:

Here's a link to one report I found. It even had the breakdown for regions and states, published last summer so I assume it's some of the latest data available. It helps to download the whole report to see all the specifics instead of merely the bullet points.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/

"In this study, we use data from the 2017 and 2019 YRBS and the 2017- 2020 BRFSS...."

I think the numbers got a lot higher betewen 2020 and 2022.  Not sure if the pendulum is swinging back now, at least in some places.

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

I think the numbers got a lot higher betewen 2020 and 2022.

That's a good catch. Numbers were on their way up already, but the pandemic had a huge effect.

[PronghornD]

There is a Pew Research Center study that was done in May 2022. I can't seem to link it, but you can look it up if you are interested. It covers young adults, though, not children.

I would imagine that in this political climate, it is very difficult to survey children about their gender.

 

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, PronghornD said:

Why are you saying this true self is non-material? A case could be made that all of what we are is material.

I mean that things like my sex, my ethnicity and my age can be independently observed. Even if I was unconscious, these facts exist.

How I think of myself internally - it's a product of brain processes, sure, but it's in a different category to things that exist in an observable way. 

If I said I my true self was a 25 year old, 6 foot tall Asian male, for example, that identity might have an internal value to me, but nobody would believe or accept at least three of those aspects of identity. In important ways, my internal experience just wouldn't form a 'true' self. 

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

That line of argument doesn't prove anything. I did not know any (openly) gay people until I was way into adulthood. That doesn't mean gay people didn't exist back then. It just meant they weren't out. 

I think it's more interesting to compare how the base rate of homosexuality is relatively stable across time, compared with rates of transgender identity. 

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I think it's more interesting to compare how the base rate of homosexuality is relatively stable across time, compared with rates of transgender identity. 

They feel fundamentally different to me, too. I’d assume that there have always been men primarily sexually attracted to men. But I’m with @EKS — a large proportion of people who conceive of themselves as transgender nowadays seem to be taking part in a currently socially acceptable method of “finding themselves.” In earlier times, they’d have done something else — asserted their identity in some other way.

This doesn’t mean it feels any less real to THEM. We’re all products of our cultural moment. But that’s my read on the situation.

[Heartstrings]

7 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I think it's more interesting to compare how the base rate of homosexuality is relatively stable across time, compared with rates of transgender identity. 

The rates of homosexuality is probably stable, because its innate, but not necessarily the rates of being out.  This article from last year says that the rates of people who identify as homosexual has doubled in the last 10 years, as it has become more acceptable and safer for people to come out.  It would be perfectly reasonable to expect a similar growth in trans identification. 

This shows 3.5% in  2012, but I doubt very much it was that high even in the 90s.  I'm sure American's remember when Ellen coming out as gay on tv was a huge scandal in the early 90s and she lost her show and nearly lost her career.  Then a decade later she gets a whole new show.  That really encapsulates how quickly being gay became more acceptable. 

Matthew Shepard was murdered for being gay in 1998.    

 

ETA:

And an important thing to remember is that a lot of the increase in trans identification is people who are simply identifying as non binary, not necessary people who are doing hormones and surgery, or even dressing as a different gender.  A lot of the non binary people fully present as one gender or the other.  There is nuance in the trans identity numbers. 

 

The percent of U.S. adults who identify as something other than heterosexual has doubled over the last 10 years, from 3.5 percent in 2012 to 7.1 percent, according to a Gallup poll released Thursday.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/percentage-lgbtq-adults-us-doubled-decade-gallup-finds-rcna16556

Edited August 9, 2023 by Heartstrings

[MercyA]

@Ginevra, is your power back on?

[Idalou]

12 hours ago, KSera said:

That's a good catch. Numbers were on their way up already, but the pandemic had a huge effect.

Good catch?? Lol,it's stated right  in the very first paragraph. Nothing hidden if you can read. My point was that it's the most recent data broken down into states that we have, and NOTHING like the 33% someone mentioned earlier. Yes it is increasing, the study also stated that. We might also remember the 'huge effect' as you say that this increase his had on transgender bills & laws and anti LGBTQ legislation that has occurred since the pandemic. Perhaps that is some sort of legislative dangerous contagion, also?

My comment had nothing to do with disagreeing with the reasons people are suggesting. It does not help to throw out such illogical percentages and rebuttals similarly as " well how many trans people did you know years ago". As of now, this discussion is merely pushback and faux outrage, exactly what is happening in our esteemed halls of government. 

 

[KSera]

21 minutes ago, Idalou said:

Good catch?? Lol,it's stated right  in the very first paragraph. Nothing hidden if you can read.

This was unnecessarily mean. I didn't go read the study because I'm in the middle of helping my actually affected child with a life crisis and it's taking almost all of my bandwidth. Reading and posting is a bit of a stress reliever between moments right now, but if you've read any of my posts on this you will know that I am absolutely 100% opposed to the anti-trans legislation being passed in the US, and it negatively impacts my own kid and I'm pissed about the whole thing.

[EKS]

With regard to never knowing any trans folks back in the day...

As a person who had significant gender dysphoria as a child, and who was forced to see a psychologist twice a week between the ages of five and eight because of it (which was torture, by the way--the woman had studied with Anna Freud, if that tells you something), I can tell you that I learned very early on (but apparently not early enough) that the best thing was to say nothing at all about my gender issues.

I never once met anyone else who admitted to having gender dysphoria during the entire time I was growing up.

[annandatje]

I generally stay out of these threads to avoid heartbreak even though I have a child in his upper 30s who transitioned to male early on in his life.

I wanted to address the notion that gender dysphoria presenting in early childhood often resolves itself as child grows.   

My child exhibited certain mannerisms and behaviors by age 3 or 4 that I had seen in the only other person I knew from my childhood who exhibited gender dysphoria.  I don’t know what became of her but I hope she got out of that hick town and found loving support and medical care.

My child’s gender dysphoria remained constant.  Around 14, he began living as male and started physical transition at age 18 after medical approval.  His mental health and general outlook improved when he began the transition process. No one in his life pressured him to be a person who was transgender; in fact, the opposite was true.

My child’s story of course is anecdotal but sometimes learning about an actual human’s experience can be more enlightening than slew of studies.  Of course, you may choose to dismiss his experience if you wish.

This is extent of information I can share without violating my child’s privacy.

[Indigo Blue]

23 minutes ago, annandatje said:

 

I generally stay out of these threads to avoid heartbreak

 

I’m sorry. I think you are wise, though. I have no lived experience in my life of people going through this, but with the ever changing cultural climate, I feel increasingly angry at the bigotry that I see. (Not saying that bigotry is happening here. It’s just all talking past each other and arguing here). Still, I’m sorry you feel you need to refrain from contributing. That makes me sad for you. 

[Ginevra]

6 hours ago, MercyA said:

@Ginevra, is your power back on?

No, but there are trucks out there now, so hopefully within the next couple of hours. #needashower  

[Ginevra]

17 hours ago, regentrude said:

That line of argument doesn't prove anything. I did not know any (openly) gay people until I was way into adulthood. That doesn't mean gay people didn't exist back then. It just meant they weren't out. 

I know it does not prove anything. I am not trying to prove anything. I do not find it valid, though, to explain a huge increase in (anything) by saying it’s always been that way; it’s just that everyone kept those struggles to themselves. 
 

Lots of people went through gender dysphoria in the past but the extremely vast majority made peace with their biological sex and went on to live like a typical person of that sex. There did not used to be a narrative in society that said, “If you don’t feel a strong sense of being female (or male) that probably means you are trans”. 

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

I’m sorry. I think you are wise, though. I have no lived experience in my life of people going through this, but with the ever changing cultural climate, I feel increasingly angry at the bigotry that I see. (Not saying that bigotry is happening here. It’s just all talking past each other and arguing here). Still, I’m sorry you feel you need to refrain from contributing. That makes me sad for you. 

Nobody needs to refrain from commenting.

The point of message boards - you contribute as and if you want. 

Anecdotes are fine.

Nobody wishes for anybody's child anything but a long and happy life.

It's just that 'our children' isn't a valid end-point to a discussion.

Not mine, not hers. 

These are social issues, with implications that extend beyond any one person's family life, and as such, they are very much up for discussion (not the individual, of course, but the issue).

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Ginevra said:

No, but there are trucks out there now, so hopefully within the next couple of hours. #needashower  

I would be very cranky about that. Hope you get a shower soon.

[PronghornD]

58 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I know it does not prove anything. I am not trying to prove anything. I do not find it valid, though, to explain a huge increase in (anything) by saying it’s always been that way; it’s just that everyone kept those struggles to themselves. 
 

Lots of people went through gender dysphoria in the past but the extremely vast majority made peace with their biological sex and went on to live like a typical person of that sex. There did not used to be a narrative in society that said, “If you don’t feel a strong sense of being female (or male) that probably means you are trans”. 

I do wonder about the more questionable ancestors many of us had, the alcoholics, the chronically depressed, the ones who could not keep a job, those who committed suicide. In many cases, we have no idea at all what kept these people from getting their life on a happy and productive track. I sometimes wonder if some of these people had gender or sexuality issues. They easily could have.

[Heartstrings]

9 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

I do wonder about the more questionable ancestors many of us had, the alcoholics, the chronically depressed, the ones who could not keep a job, those who committed suicide. In many cases, we have no idea at all what kept these people from getting their life on a happy and productive track. I sometimes wonder if some of these people had gender or sexuality issues. They easily could have.

Similar to all the people in history who lived with a same gendered friend for many decades and never married, which was definitely not historical code for gay.  
 

Women were given lobotomies for “sexual deviancy” which was a pretty broad description. 
 

The Norse myths have Loki living as a woman for years at a time.  
 

Of course I’m thinking fairly euro or American centric here.  I think all or nearly all Native American cultures had a tradition of “two spirits” or similar, for example.  

[Ginevra]

16 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

I do wonder about the more questionable ancestors many of us had, the alcoholics, the chronically depressed, the ones who could not keep a job, those who committed suicide. In many cases, we have no idea at all what kept these people from getting their life on a happy and productive track. I sometimes wonder if some of these people had gender or sexuality issues. They easily could have.

I’m sure some may have. My thinking comes from a different place, though. I think a lot of people went through war and severe economic hardship, either as kids or as parents themselves. Many were more or less an afterthought; kids did not used to be, on the whole, cherished as a precious brand-new human. Many were raised abusively by parents who were themselves dysfunctional from being raised abusively. 
 

Also, I most often think of alcoholism as arising from its own vice, not as a separate vice arising out of gender/orientation problems. The person learns that numbing themselves from reality with alcohol is a nice way to “unwind” from the day until they no longer can just have a normal, non-numbed evening. 

[Melissa Louise]

People suffered a wide range of mental health stressors in the past as now - it's drawing a VERY long bow to put that down to gender issues as we understand them today. 

[Melissa Louise]

Third gender societies used the concept as a way of dealing with feminine or gay men. Because, hey, real men aren't gay or feminine! (Or so the thinking goes - of course they are just as real and just as man).

I cannot even express how bugged I am at having regression represented as progress. 

[SKL]

34 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

I do wonder about the more questionable ancestors many of us had, the alcoholics, the chronically depressed, the ones who could not keep a job, those who committed suicide. In many cases, we have no idea at all what kept these people from getting their life on a happy and productive track. I sometimes wonder if some of these people had gender or sexuality issues. They easily could have.

And some of the nice, well-adjusted folks may have also had GD during part or all of their lives.

Up until recently, one generally had all sorts of thoughts, wishes, confusions, and frustrations through adolescence, and then things settled down and they thought, "OK, so this is what it's like being a woman / man.  Let's get on with it."  Because they didn't have people breaking into their adolescent angst to tell them that those feelings weren't normal and probably meant they were actually the other gender, or that they needed to search themselves and decide "am I a girl or a boy?"

But life was harder back then in other ways.  Lots more abuse, poverty, and punishment for non-conformity of any kind.  Practically nobody had access to psychological services, and many had few healthcare resources.  High death rate, infant mortality, so many things out of one's control.  Naturally some of the population couldn't handle it.

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

And some of the nice, well-adjusted folks may have also had GD during part or all of their lives.

Up until recently, one generally had all sorts of thoughts, wishes, confusions, and frustrations through adolescence, and then things settled down and they thought, "OK, so this is what it's like being a woman / man.  Let's get on with it."  Because they didn't have people breaking into their adolescent angst to tell them that those feelings weren't normal and probably meant they were actually the other gender, or that they needed to search themselves and decide "am I a girl or a boy?"

But life was harder back then in other ways.  Lots more abuse, poverty, and punishment for non-conformity of any kind.  Practically nobody had access to psychological services, and many had few healthcare resources.  High death rate, infant mortality, so many things out of one's control.  Naturally some of the population couldn't handle it.

Until a few hot minutes ago, it was WIDELY understood that adolescence was a turbulent time re identity, and that this turbulence (in the absence of pathology) resolved during early adulthood.

I find it so psychologically misinformed that anyone would advocate for closing that window of identity formation through intervention during this period.

[SHP]

"No one in his life pressured him to be a person who was transgender; in fact, the opposite was true."

This right here. 

There has been, and still is, great societal pressure to conform to one's assigned gender, subtle and not so subtle and is often ignored. Negative responses from others to deviations is traumatic, even when the other person doesn't intend to cause harm. It is more harmful in instance where the other person really believes they are "right" and they dig and and refuse to even consider the possibility that their words are harmful. Those who demand that their "right" to use whatever pronouns they have decided fit another person trumps the right of the person to be referred to by pronouns they have asked to be referred to as. 

There is no defense to continue to do so after being asked. It is an act of violence. 

 

 

 

 

[SKL]

OK but don't you think it's also hurtful to say to a female (who hasn't stated she is trans), "are you sure you're not a boy??"

Edited August 9, 2023 by SKL

[Melissa Louise]

Is there pressure to conform to gender stereotypes? 

Yes.

Should there be space for the (wide range) of people who reject gender stereotypes? 

Also yes.

Does any of that require us to medicate children, ignore the reality of mammalian sex, or believe in 'wrong bodies' or 'true selves'?

No.

And none of the above is violence.*

*Source: have been a victim of violence. This ain't it .

 

 

 

 

[SHP]

Just now, SKL said:

OK but don't you think it's also harmful to say "are you sure you're not a boy??"

By thenuse if boy, I assume you are asking a child.

Why would you ask that? It isn't your place. Just say OK, adjust your pronouns and let them live. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

'Just gaslight yourself, ok? And be part of a practice you think it harmful to the child. What's the big deal?'

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, SHP said:

By thenuse if boy, I assume you are asking a child.

Why would you ask that? It isn't your place. Just say OK, adjust your pronouns and let them live.

I'm saying people (peers and some school personnel, schooled by the brilliant internet) are asking our children  ("Are you sure you're not a boy/girl") because they think it's an appropriate question to ask if kids don't outwardly follow gender stereotypes.

I'm asking, don't you think that's just as hurtful?

Edited August 9, 2023 by SKL

[SHP]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Is there pressure to conform to gender stereotypes? 

Yes.

Should there be space for the (wide range) of people who reject gender stereotypes? 

Also yes.

Does any of that require us to medicate children, ignore the reality of mammalian sex, or believe in 'wrong bodies' or 'true selves'?

No.

And none of the above is violence.*

*Source: have been a victim of violence. This ain't it .

 

 

 

 

I never said anything about medication or surgery. I said pronouns. 

And yes, if you have been told to use a certain pronoun by a person for themselves and you decide that you know better than them, then you have denied them autonomy. That is violence.

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, SHP said:

I never said anything about medication or surgery. I said pronouns. 

And yes, if you have been told to use a certain pronoun by a person for themselves and you decide that you know better than them, then you have denied them autonomy. That is violence.

 

Bull. 

Violence is getting whacked around the head so you have to wear your hair down to cover the bruise.

It's not calling a male 'he'. 

 

[SHP]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

'Just gaslight yourself, ok? And be part of a practice you think it harmful to the child. What's the big deal?'

Didn't say that either. 

Try this: "I will respect this person and their wishes because I am not their doctor, therapist, or God and it is not my place to tell them I know them better than they know themselves, nor is it my place or my right to pass judgment on them."

See how easy that is? 

 

 

[EKS]

49 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

Also, I most often think of alcoholism as arising from its own vice, not as a separate vice arising out of gender/orientation problems. The person learns that numbing themselves from reality with alcohol is a nice way to “unwind” from the day until they no longer can just have a normal, non-numbed evening.

As an aside...

Alcoholism results from a particular physical response to alcohol, and it can be completely reversed with drugs like naltrexone that block that response.  It is not a vice and it is not a habit in the usual sense.  It is a physical problem that can, in many cases, be easily fixed with medication.

It blows my mind that this is not widely known.

Edited August 9, 2023 by EKS

[SHP]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Bull. 

Violence is getting whacked around the head so you have to wear your hair down to cover the bruise.

It's not calling a male 'he'. 

 

Violence is not always physical and to insist it is can be triggering to the boardies who have been in, or still are in, marriages where a hand is not raised but they was still violence. 

Violence isn't always physical. 

[Ginevra]

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

As an aside...

Alcoholism results from a particular physical response to alcohol, and it can be completely reversed with drugs like naltrexone that block that response.  It is not a vice and it is not a habit in the usual sense.  It is a physical problem that can, in many cases, be easily fixed with medication.

It blows my mind that this is not widely known.

Indeed; I did not know that.

[EKS]

1 minute ago, Ginevra said:

Indeed; I did not know that.

Probably because the 12 step people have a lock on the addiction conversation in this country.  It's tragic.

[SKL]

Wouldn't it be more logical to counsel trans youth to understand that pronouns are ingrained, and they're likely to automatically be called whatever sex they appear to be, and that's not going to kill them?

I mean, in addition to calling them their preferred pronouns if you prefer to train yourself to do that.

I still believe this trend is largely a fad, and that this pronoun stuff will become mostly irrelevant fairly soon.  For that small minority for whom transition is needed, pronouns will be sorted by the person grooming, dressing, naming oneself, etc. in accordance with the new gender.  But to the extent people still use the "wrong pronoun," people should be able to roll with it ... just like non-trans people who are sometimes misgendered have to roll with it.

[Ginevra]

21 minutes ago, SHP said:

"No one in his life pressured him to be a person who was transgender; in fact, the opposite was true."

This right here. 

There has been, and still is, great societal pressure to conform to one's assigned gender, subtle and not so subtle and is often ignored. Negative responses from others to deviations is traumatic, even when the other person doesn't intend to cause harm. It is more harmful in instance where the other person really believes they are "right" and they dig and and refuse to even consider the possibility that their words are harmful. Those who demand that their "right" to use whatever pronouns they have decided fit another person trumps the right of the person to be referred to by pronouns they have asked to be referred to as. 

There is no defense to continue to do so after being asked. It is an act of violence. 

 

 

 

 

Why should this mean one must radically change their body and body chemistry in order to comply with some douchebag’s gender stereotypes?  Isn’t it better to break down the stereotypes and keep one’s biology? 

[Melissa Louise]

6 minutes ago, SHP said:

Violence is not always physical and to insist it is can be triggering to the boardies who have been in, or still are in, marriages where a hand is not raised but they was still violence. 

Violence isn't always physical. 

Yes, thanks, I know this.

Having experienced it, I also know that 'he' is not the same as verbal or emotional abuse. 

It's truly gross to me that people equate a courtesy with abuse. 

At worst, 'he' is impolite..

[Ginevra]

4 minutes ago, EKS said:

Probably because the 12 step people have a lock on the addiction conversation in this country.  It's tragic.

Holy smokes. You may be on to something…

[Melissa Louise]

20 minutes ago, SHP said:

Didn't say that either. 

Try this: "I will respect this person and their wishes because I am not their doctor, therapist, or God and it is not my place to tell them I know them better than they know themselves, nor is it my place or my right to pass judgment on them."

See how easy that is? 

 

 

[deleted by moderator for language]

[LMD]

11 minutes ago, SHP said:

I never said anything about medication or surgery. I said pronouns. 

And yes, if you have been told to use a certain pronoun by a person for themselves and you decide that you know better than them, then you have denied them autonomy. That is violence.

 

No it isn't.

If I use sex based pronouns, that is my own response to the reality before my own eyes. The 'violence' is emotionally manipulating me into gaslighting myself. No. Btdt. The ability to identify and express material reality is a hard won boundary for me.

In real life, I am kind and treat people with the dignity that humans intrinsically have. In discussions on the internet I don't get personal about people's children and I also don't get cowed by emotional pleas to shut down conversation. It is an uncomfortable conversation. I'm willing to be the bad guy. I'm not willing to shut up.

[SHP]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

F you, really. 

Wow. Not nice. Not nice at all.

[SHP]

2 minutes ago, LMD said:

No it isn't.

If I use sex based pronouns, that is my own response to the reality before my own eyes. The 'violence' is emotionally manipulating me into gaslighting myself. No. Btdt. The ability to identify and express material reality is a hard won boundary for me.

In real life, I am kind and treat people with the dignity that humans intrinsically have. In discussions on the internet I don't get personal about people's children and I also don't get cowed by emotional pleas to shut down conversation. It is an uncomfortable conversation. I'm willing to be the bad guy. I'm not willing to shut up.

Then if someone says "I am not a 'he' please use 'she'" do you? Or do you decide that you know better than they do and continue to use 'he'?

Why or why not? 

 

There is no emotional plea here.

 

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

Probably because the 12 step people have a lock on the addiction conversation in this country.  It's tragic.

I didn't know about the medication part.

[SHP]

9 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes, thanks, I know this.

Having experienced it, I also know that 'he' is not the same as verbal or emotional abuse. 

It's truly gross to me that people equate a courtesy with abuse. 

At worst, 'he' is impolite..

The first time you meet the person it is at most impolite. If the person polity asks you to refer to them as 'she' and you continue to refer to them as 'he' you are violating their autonomy and their expressed wishes. That is a form of violence. That is traumatic. That is beyond rude. 

[Heartstrings]

19 minutes ago, SHP said:

That is violence.

I know I'm in the minority about this on my "side" but I don't think this rhetoric is actually helpful.  The people that would be persuaded by it are already on the "side" that doesn't need it.  The people who are up in arms about pronouns are just going to fight about the definition of violence too.  Trying to redefine the word violence to include words is not a winning or persuasive argument for our "side".   

 

It's rude not to address someone as they wish to be addressed.  Its uncaring.  Its mean. It shows that you value your ideology over the feelings of the actual person in front of you.  It definitely shows what kind of person you are. Its not actually an act of violence as the word is commonly understood. 

 

[LMD]

Just now, SHP said:

Then if someone says "I am not a 'he' please use 'she'" do you? Or do you decide that you know better than they do and continue to use 'he'?

Why or why not? 

 

There is no emotional plea here.

 

It depends. I would find it a violation of my values & dignity as a woman to call a male presenting with sexist, pornified, fetishised, misogynist stereotypes as 'she'. That is my pattern recognition kicking in, and so I won't gaslight myself to ignore it.

In other instances, it depends on context. Mostly I call people 'you' & treat them with respect in direct conversation and don't gossip about them later.