Lindamood-Bell

[maize]

Who here has experience with Lindamood-Bell tutoring? Can you tell me about it?

[jboo]

I have a friend who used it for her extremely dyslexic child. 

Generally speaking, it's a last ditch effort to remediate dyslexia, because it is  so *very* expensive and takes so much time. Intensive tutoring, maybe two hours a day for weeks. She says she could've bought another house with what she spent, but on the other hand, now she has a child who can read - not super well, but enough that he's functional.

[prairiewindmomma]

It's cheaper to be trained than to pay for the tutoring yourself (which was relevant to us because we've gotten no state funding ever). Also, a lot of the materials are available used on amazon.  

Seeing Stars uses symbol imagery (creating mental images) as a means of remembering sounds and phonemic patterns.  The materials remind me of a blend of Spelling Power (Print, Say, Write in Air--that early multi-method of interacting) and Math-U-See: black and white, simple layout on pages, limited amount of material per page.

Visualizing and Verbalizing and the other materials are much the same---trying to strengthen symbol imagery using a multi-sensory approach.

It's a good fit if a kid can already decode and knows their sight words---and the fundamental gap is in understanding what is being read or in concept imagery, it's a great program. If your kid is struggling to decode, then this is not the program for them, imo.

 

[Tanager]

This may be helpful - “ORTON-GILLINGHAM COMPARED TO LiPS (LINDAMOOD PHONEME SEQUENCING PROGRAM)”

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5ab038ed8ab7228b5bbe130d/t/5c9120a4c83025f29e67a3c8/1553014949791/Web+OG+v+LiPS.pdf

[maize]

I have a ten year old with severe dyslexia.  It isn't helped by the fact the he still struggles with speech articulation in spite of years of speech therapy. I'm trying to figure out potential next steps for him.

[Farrar]

I had a friend who did Lindamood Bell tutoring and a couple of students who used it eons ago. My overall impression is that it's not better than Barton per se. However, I think some kids seem to do better with it. Maybe because of the specific tutors? But maybe the approach. It always seemed to me like there was a bit of speech language pathologist work happening with Lindamood Bell.

[prairiewindmomma]

Have you done deep educational testing with the kid? How’s the working memory and visual processing? What are their ran/ras or DIBELS scores like? Auditory processing? Any ADHD in the mix also that isn’t being addressed? Severe dyslexia is such a wide open umbrella term, imo, that it doesn’t precisely pinpoint deficits.

Honestly, in your shoes, I would pick PeterPan’s brain, especially if you think there’s some neurodivergent thinking going on as well. She’s done so well at getting deep into the weeds to figure out where the gaps are.

[Lecka]

I also think severe dyslexia in a ten-year-old can mean a lot of different things.

Overall it means a ten-year-old who is not reading like expected for their age.  But that is a lot more broad then. 6- or 7-year-old.  
 

A lot of times kids in this situation will have a lot of reading skills and they aren’t necessarily fitting into what would be needed for a younger child.  
 

I don’t know what his speech sounds are or how many he has, but the Lindamood Bell program about speech sounds is LIPS.  It is very highly regarded.  I saw samples at one time and it was, overall, similar to what my son was doing in speech therapy.  This is my older son.  
 

LIPS is really specific to speech sounds and linking hearing speech sounds to producing speech sounds, and adding a visual that relates to what the mouth is doing.  That is my memory.

 

On the other hand my younger son (14 now) just had some updated testing, he has autism, he has borderline IQ, he is reading well for himself but it’s not a regular reading level.  He can read Diary of a Wimpy Kid.  He can read all 1- and 2-syllable words and stumbles on a lot of (most) 3-syllable words.  He has got auditory processing issues etc and that is just not something we are going to be able to drill away.  He does continue to make slow progress, though.  
 

Anyway, he still has speech goals for that pesky r and next year they are basically dropping it in favor of more self-advocacy skills, and I think it’s a good idea.  That pesky r is not a hill to die on.

 

There’s a big extreme there between my two sons and I think testing goes a long way in finding an answer.

 

If it is speech sounds you are looking at — it is worth looking at LIPS and seeing what you can find.  
 

There is an alternative to LIPS as well, that iirc is mentioned as being for students who don’t pass the Barton screening, and it can be found on the Barton website.  It was coming out a little later than when my older son was at that level, so I do not know as much about it.  
 

I do remember it being an alternative to LIPS where it was cheaper and had clearer instructions.

 

 

 

 

[Lecka]

https://bartonreading.com/student-result/#sf
 

I don’t know if this is a direct link, but it is on the page about “what if a student fails the Barton screening.”

 

Then it mentions LIPS — which is a Lindamood Bell program.  And the alternative program is Foundations in Sounds.

 

If he is having problems at this level, is doing poorly on Dibels stuff like sounding out easy/basic nonsense words, etc, this is a level he might need.

 

And it can go along with speech articulation.  
 

LIPS was also developed as a speech therapy program to help with speech sounds, so there is hope it could help with speech sounds, too.  
 

But it all depends on what is going on with him and his individual needs.  
 

Good luck, I hope you find something that will really work for him and he makes good progress!!!!!!!!!!

[Lecka]

For more about my older son with the LIPS/Foundation in Sounds level of need….

 

For him it was auditory discrimination aka telling apart speech sounds.  Pretty important for articulation if that is the reason (or a reason) that articulation is a problem.

Did he hear a “t” or a “p” in a word?  No idea, no way to know, no way to tell them apart.

What about blends, what’s the difference between the words fog, frog, and flog?  No idea, no way to know, no way to tell them apart.  They all sound the same.  
 

(And this makes it hard to learn letters and associate letter sounds with letters, because they sound too similar.) 
 

He had a certain set of consonants and a set of blends, that he couldn’t tell apart, and they corresponded to his speech sounds in speech therapy.

 

 

[PeterPan]

On 5/25/2023 at 12:46 AM, maize said:

I have a ten year old with severe dyslexia.  It isn't helped by the fact the he still struggles with speech articulation in spite of years of speech therapy. I'm trying to figure out potential next steps for him.

This screams APD and apraxia. Linda mood bell stuff, some of which we used and liked/recommend, solves neither. 
 

ProEdInc sells good materials for the APD based language and phonological processing issues. PROMP is what you’d be looking for if you suspect praxis.

[maize]

36 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

This screams APD and apraxia. Linda mood bell stuff, some of which we used and liked/recommend, solves neither. 
 

ProEdInc sells good materials for the APD based language and phonological processing issues. PROMP is what you’d be looking for if you suspect praxis.

Thanks

[PeterPan]

11 hours ago, maize said:

Thanks

Oops that was PROMPT

[DA2023]

My son reads a lot but his writing is very behind. His reading comprehension is also not as high as we hoped with the amount of reading he does. We had him evaluated at Lindamood Bell and they recommended 60-100 hours in the Visualizing and Verbalizing program. Is there a more affordable alternative?

@PeterPan- curious on your thoughts 

[PeterPan]

17 hours ago, DA2023 said:

My son reads a lot but his writing is very behind. His reading comprehension is also not as high as we hoped with the amount of reading he does. We had him evaluated at Lindamood Bell and they recommended 60-100 hours in the Visualizing and Verbalizing program. Is there a more affordable alternative?

@PeterPan- curious on your thoughts 

Sure would be nice to have a few other evals to verify/clarify what's actually going on. V/V is a fine program, but you could buy it and do it yourself. A person who needs that could have visual processing problems that are caused by a cascade of other things (convergence, developmental optometry issues, retained primitive/neonatal reflexes, etc.) that a developmental optometrist would test for. It would be foolhardy to work on the end product (visualization) without confirming the developmental vision. It would be good to screen for vision issues before you pay $$$$$$$ to entry level, loosely trained workers implementing a curriculum you could do yourself.

 Two, comprehension issues are the ice berg, where you see one piece and don't really know what you're seeing UNDERNEATH. The underneath of the ice berg of comprehension should be testing for by SLPs, and again that's another set of evals with someone who can run tests and sort out what's going on. Some kids are just terrific baskets of fun with language and you get to work on EVERYTHING. Like with my ds, you name it, we've had to work on it. Syntax, metalinguistics, narrative language, social thinking, vocabulary (which is more than just words but is the relationships and how they file in the brain, part of what V/V is addressing), etc. So I'd really hate to be the one looking at you saying that one program implemented by a loosely trained worker is going to solve ALL that, because that would really stretch incredulity.

One program might solve all your problems or you might dig in and realize you needed more things. You don't know till you do evals. You can also sort of use your common sense about what you know about your child and their issues, what has already been done, etc. I have zero issue with saying V/V (or the lower level Talkies) is a good thing to do. It definitely is. I just can't guarantee you that's the cause of your child's comprehension issues or the ONLY cause. And it would really stink to pay all your $$$$$$$$ into one system and realize you needed more. Anything thing they're claiming should be able to be validated with other more standard therapy/medical testing by SLPs, a developmental optometrist, etc. etc. If you do that, it will help you determine if additional factors are in play and whether you could get insurance or other sources to help pay for the therapy.

Does that give you a start? If you want more affordable, buy the book (which is usually under $100), watch youtube videos to see the system implemented, and do it yourself. You're not likely to screw it up and you won't be out much. The more complicated the situation, there more there are likely to be other factors involved. The best way to save money is to find those issues and figure out what is most foundational to treat first. For instance, my ds' visualization came together very quickly with OT to work on retained reflexes. If you catch those early on ,sometimes you stop the domino chain, kwim? And if your kid is older, sometimes it's really hard to go to the end of the line and want that fruit and not deal with the earlier issues. So working on root issues can save you money. They don't have to be expensive either. 

The *concepts* in V/V are profound and very useful. At the very least, spend some time on youtube learning more. While you're at it, you might look up Story Grammar Marker on youtube because they have a ton of free videos that explore how to teach narrative, how fiction and non-fiction narrative language development intertwines, etc. You may find some of your answers are there and you can learn about that for FREE. They have a particularly good video about what to do on Monday morning...

Some of what v/v addresses is developmental language issues that would raise questions about what is going on. There is another SLP developed "writing" program (Expanding Expressions Tool) that school SLPs will often use that does something similar. However if you're needing that, to me the eyebrows should be going up asking why. And if the LMB program is too $$, then the same language issues should be able to be identified by your private SLP and funded with insurance.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by PeterPan

[Kanin]

On 5/25/2023 at 2:27 PM, Lecka said:

For more about my older son with the LIPS/Foundation in Sounds level of need….

 

For him it was auditory discrimination aka telling apart speech sounds.  Pretty important for articulation if that is the reason (or a reason) that articulation is a problem.

Did he hear a “t” or a “p” in a word?  No idea, no way to know, no way to tell them apart.

What about blends, what’s the difference between the words fog, frog, and flog?  No idea, no way to know, no way to tell them apart.  They all sound the same.  
 

As I read your post, I was thinking... maybe LiPS would be appropriate here. It's great for articulation and developing phonemic awareness.

With some of my students, trying to work on phonics (decoding the words) before addressing phonemic awareness (sounds in words), is a waste of time. It's 100% worth it to put in the work with LiPS first.

Also, LiPS works on phonemic awareness AND decoding simultaneously. Once a student has a group of sounds they're solid with/can easily label and distinguish from each other, the teacher uses LiPS techniques to work on sounds as well as spelling/reading with those sounds.

The SLPs I work with also like LiPS.

[Kanin]

@maize I worked for Lindamood-Bell as a tutor for a short time. I had two weeks of (good) training and continual oversight from the people running the tutoring center.

That being said, two weeks of training is SO short. If you want to have someone else do the tutoring, there may be someone who is really good at LiPS (like a center manager or something) that could do it for you. If you're comfortable teaching reading generally, you could get really good at LiPS and other LM-B programs pretty easily. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Kanin

[PeterPan]

20 hours ago, Kanin said:

As I read your post, I was thinking... maybe LiPS would be appropriate here. It's great for articulation and developing phonemic awareness.

With some of my students, trying to work on phonics (decoding the words) before addressing phonemic awareness (sounds in words), is a waste of time. It's 100% worth it to put in the work with LiPS first.

Also, LiPS works on phonemic awareness AND decoding simultaneously. Once a student has a group of sounds they're solid with/can easily label and distinguish from each other, the teacher uses LiPS techniques to work on sounds as well as spelling/reading with those sounds.

The SLPs I work with also like LiPS.

Just for your trivia and a total aside, it took a while for me to realize that we had done tons of work going sound to print and not really enough sound with backgrounds. Even after LIPS and even with my ds still reading at an excellent level, he still had these auditory processing of language gaps. We finally found an SLP to dig in on them and he got noticeable functional improvement.

Wild, eh? 

[Kanin]

On 6/30/2023 at 9:45 AM, PeterPan said:

Wild, eh? 

Definitely! He's lucky to have a mom that's savvy enough to figure these things out.

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Kanin said:

Definitely! He's lucky to have a mom that's savvy enough to figure these things out.

You wouldn't BELIEVE what our lives are like now. 😁 It's why I'm hardly around posting on the boards, because we're just constantly busy. We're seeing the fruit of digging so hard and doing all these crazy things. It's not perfect, but it's at least good. And really, for a long time it didn't ever feel like life with ds would be GOOD. 

[Kanin]

7 hours ago, PeterPan said:

You wouldn't BELIEVE what our lives are like now. 😁 It's why I'm hardly around posting on the boards, because we're just constantly busy. We're seeing the fruit of digging so hard and doing all these crazy things. It's not perfect, but it's at least good. And really, for a long time it didn't ever feel like life with ds would be GOOD. 

I'm so thrilled for you! I remember reading posts years ago when you were really in the trenches. So, so awesome!

[jmarie]

I see that this is late, but I worked at Lindamood-Bell as one of their clinicians right out of college and was trained in each program. While I worked there, I saw some amazing progress in some clients. I also saw some very bad business practices, some of which the company has been sued for. 

Positives:

• Repetition, repetition, repetition! The programs are organized, well-timed, and I've seen the methods actually work.
• The materials are effective when used as intended.

Negatives:

• Clients are tested in-house before they start a program (for about $1000 of your money) and then tested in-house again after they complete the program. I have personally seen intentionally skewed results that suggest a client made greater improvements than they actually did. 
• The person who is actually working with the client typically only gets paid $20/hr. Clients are unlikely to work with the same person each session.
• Clinicians are discouraged from veering from the program at all. In my experience this sometimes has a negative effect on rapport-building and prevents creative problem-solving.

I have seen people fork over tens of thousands of dollars to this company. Not worth it in my opinion.