Talk to me about a conversation I had last night.

[Slache]

I can't come up with a better title. Sorry.

My best friend, a late thirties woman, called me last night. She's had a really hard few years beginning with her husband being diagnosed with Narcissist Personality Disorder (she's actually the one who taught me about the disorder after she met my MIL), an ugly divorce, then coming to the conclusion that she hates her career and toxic work environment. We often call and word vomit at each other about our troubles.

About six months ago she discovered she had a stalker. She moved and changed jobs (they worked together) but he kept it up so she got a security system and filed a police report. Eventually she realized he wasn't actually stalking her she was just really stressed out.

She moved in with her parents and became suicidal. She let me know she was changing her number because it was "compromised" but didn't call me for a few months which isn't normal for us.

Last night she calls and we catch up. She's got a new job, but everyone at the new job knew about the fake stalker mixup. She believes this is because the FBI is tracking her and they told the new HR company what happened. I laughed because I thought it was joke and she explained why it's actually happening. I told her that was unfortunate and I'm really sorry.

I don't know what to ask or do, I just can't stop thinking about it so I thought I'd talk to you about it.

Say things to me.

[YaelAldrich]

I'm so sorry that your friend is having such troubles, whether real or imagined. It sounds like she has some serious mental health stuff going on in her life. Do you think she trusts you enough to help her get help in her new location? 

[catz]

Do you know her parents?  Could you talk to them about it?  It does sound like she's really struggling with mental health.  I hope she gets some help.  

[Farrar]

"Friend, I was thinking about our conversation. You know from the whole mix up with Stalker that stress makes you paranoid and overwhelmed. Starting a new job is super stressful. Having people at the new job know about this mix up is also obviously incredibly stressful for your real need for a fresh start. So is it possible that this stress is causing that pattern to repeat?"

[sassenach]

She sounds in need of professional mental health care. 

[Slache]

She's living with her parents and in therapy. I didn't say that because I wanted to know initial thoughts.

[pinball]

Could she be bipolar?
 

Sometimes there can be components of psychosis.

[Katy]

I agree with the consensus that she’s struggling with mental health. 

[Annie G]

I had a friend long ago who went through something very similar. She ended up thinking an Atlanta Braves player was in love with her and communicating through ‘looks and signals’ while he was at bat.  Then it spilled over into her job. It all started after her divorce. 
With that background, I can tell you what we did, which was to listen to her vent, but not feed it or validate her paranoia. Simply a sympathetic ear and redirection to other things such as whether she’d discussed the latest w her therapist. Or how her son was doing, or something else. 
The paranoia escalated and we ended  the relationship when she started thinking that we were in cahoots with her ex husband.  It was a sad situation, but we really did try to be a friend. 
I feel for your friend, and for you. I hope you get some good suggestions here.

[Kanin]

This sounds a lot like the stuff my MIL says sometimes. It usually only happens when she's really stressed. I personally think she may have schizophrenia. 

[Slache]

34 minutes ago, Annie G said:

... we ended  the relationship when she started thinking that we were in cahoots with her ex husband...

May I ask why you ended the relationship specifically? Did you feel unsafe or was it too difficult to maintain? Losing her is my biggest concern. She is long distance and I will put up with a lot. 

29 minutes ago, Kanin said:

This sounds a lot like the stuff my MIL says sometimes. It usually only happens when she's really stressed. I personally think she may have schizophrenia. 

I also didn't say in the OP that schizophrenia runs in her family. I'm 99.9% sure that's exactly what's happening here. Her family knows something is very wrong and they are simultaneously trying to isolate her and marry her off to a good Christian man very quickly. It's a complete mess.

[maize]

It definitely sounds like she is experiencing paranoia.

It is all very real to her, so she will absolutely persist in defending her thinking, no matter how irrational.

[Slache]

11 minutes ago, maize said:

It definitely sounds like she is experiencing paranoia.

It is all very real to her, so she will absolutely persist in defending her thinking, no matter how irrational.

I laughed because I thought it was a joke, but when I realized it wasn't I didn't do anything to invalidate her. I know it's all real to her. Her line of thinking even made sense, it's just not a rational conclusion.

[Annie G]

We ended the relationship due to a combination of things. She ended therapy and spiraled down in a way that we just felt was on the verge of dangerous. She was shutting out everyone who tried to help, and her behavior was so erratic. We didn’t live locally so we felt we couldn’t really help her. In addition, it happened at the same time our oldest developed an eating disorder and our youngest was nonverbal and being evaluated for autism.  It was just all too much for me. 

[Scarlett]

31 minutes ago, Slache said:

May I ask why you ended the relationship specifically? Did you feel unsafe or was it too difficult to maintain? Losing her is my biggest concern. She is long distance and I will put up with a lot. 

I also didn't say in the OP that schizophrenia runs in her family. I'm 99.9% sure that's exactly what's happening here. Her family knows something is very wrong and they are simultaneously trying to isolate her and marry her off to a good Christian man very quickly. It's a complete mess.

I immediately thought of my brother who has had extreme paranoid thoughts over the years.  I believe he is bi polar but his half brother has paranoid schizophrenia and has been institutionalized since he was 19 (he is 58 now). 
 

I will never cut my brother off unless he is an actual threat.  He is not easy though.  It is not an easy relationship. 

[KSera]

I’m glad she’s getting help, but do you know if a psychiatrist/anti-psychotics are part of that. There are programs for people experiencing a first episode of psychosis, and they can be extremely helpful. They provide a lot of wraparound services and many of them are actually funded by grants and will not cost money to the person enrolled. The better help someone gets during the early part of this happening, the better the chances that they can go on and live a full life. Psychosis absolutely can be managed, and it’s not unusual for someone having a first episode to have it resolve and not come back. Hopefully that is the case for your friend.

Do you happen to know if she had Covid before this began? That’s more common in teens and young adults, there’s a marked increase in psychosis after a Covid illness. Although, if she has a family history, that’s enough of an explanation. She just seems a little old for onset. 
 

Here’s an interesting study on characteristics of those with later onset (after age 26) psychosis:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28728091/

[Slache]

25 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I immediately thought of my brother who has had extreme paranoid thoughts over the years.  I believe he is bi polar but his half brother has paranoid schizophrenia and has been institutionalized since he was 19 (he is 58 now). 
 

I will never cut my brother off unless he is an actual threat.  He is not easy though.  It is not an easy relationship. 

I will never cut her off, but I can't say the same for her if she's too sick. I live long distance, so aside from a few nasty accusations over the phone I really bare no consequences for the relationship and I feel safe. But she asked me if I was talking to the FBI about her because they seem to know things only I do, so I'm worried about that.

6 minutes ago, KSera said:

I’m glad she’s getting help, but do you know if a psychiatrist/anti-psychotics are part of that. There are programs for people experiencing a first episode of psychosis, and they can be extremely helpful. They provide a lot of wraparound services and many of them are actually funded by grants and will not cost money to the person enrolled. The better help someone gets during the early part of this happening, the better the chances that they can go on and live a full life. Psychosis absolutely can be managed, and it’s not unusual for someone having a first episode to have it resolve and not come back. Hopefully that is the case for your friend.

Do you happen to know if she had Covid before this began? That’s more common in teens and young adults, there’s a marked increase in psychosis after a Covid illness. Although, if she has a family history, that’s enough of an explanation. She just seems a little old for onset. 
 

Here’s an interesting study on characteristics of those with later onset (after age 26) psychosis:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28728091/

She did. Thank you for the information. I will read it now.

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, Slache said:

I will never cut her off, but I can't say the same for her if she's too sick. I live long distance, so aside from a few nasty accusations over the phone I really bare no consequences for the relationship and I feel safe. But she asked me if I was talking to the FBI about her because they seem to know things only I do, so I'm worried about that.

She did. Thank you for the information. I will read it now.

This is absolute paranoia. It is mind blowing to deal with.  I am sorry.  

[KidsHappen]

Do you know for a fact that she was actually talking to the FBI? Because do you know how hard it is for someone with a legitimate stalker to get help from even local LEOs much less the FBI? How the heck did she manage to accomplish this with a fake stalker? Have you seen any evidence, paperwork, proof? Is it possible that this was a figment of her imagination? I am sorry but this really does sound like mental health problem and a serious one at that. My guess is that she needs inpatient care. I am so sorry for everyone involved.

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

Do you know for a fact that she was actually talking to the FBI? Because do you know how hard it is for someone with a legitimate stalker to get help from even local LEOs much less the FBI? How the heck did she manage to accomplish this with a fake stalker? Have you seen any evidence, paperwork, proof? Is it possible that this was a figment of her imagination? I am sorry but this really does sound like mental health problem and a serious one at that. My guess is that she needs inpatient care. I am so sorry for everyone involved.

It is almost positively a figment of her imagination.

[Slache]

11 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

Do you know for a fact that she was actually talking to the FBI? Because do you know how hard it is for someone with a legitimate stalker to get help from even local LEOs much less the FBI? How the heck did she manage to accomplish this with a fake stalker? Have you seen any evidence, paperwork, proof? Is it possible that this was a figment of her imagination? I am sorry but this really does sound like mental health problem and a serious one at that. My guess is that she needs inpatient care. I am so sorry for everyone involved.

She didn't say she was talking to the FBI, she said the FBI is tracking her. It is 100% a mental health problem, but I just figured out there was a mental health problem last night and it is waaaaaay above my pay grade and I need to talk it out with people who don't know and won't judge her. I also assumed that this was a good place to find people who had been through similar situations.

[Moonhawk]

I feel for you and your friend. I'm sorry she is going through this, and that you have to go through watching it.

I don't have any good advice or insight. I will say that when my person is in a state of mental unwellness (which includes paranoia but not to the degree your friend seems to be experiencing), I cannot outright deny anything. "Denial is the first sign" is literally how they see any attempt to defend myself or point out the inconsistencies in their thought process. Sometimes I can ask questions that quasi-lead to the absurdity of what they think, but usually once they catch on it doesn't end well. You are long distance and not in constant contact, so I don't know how that would play out in your situation. Commiseration and assurance that I am on their team is usually met suspiciously at first but is eventually believed (usually).

I'm glad she has a supportive family structure and I hope they are able to direct her to the level of care she needs.

[KSera]

24 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

I cannot outright deny anything. "Denial is the first sign" is literally how they see any attempt to defend myself or point out the inconsistencies in their thought process. Sometimes I can ask questions that quasi-lead to the absurdity of what they think, but usually once they catch on it doesn't end well. You are long distance and not in constant contact, so I don't know how that would play out in your situation. Commiseration and assurance that I am on their team is usually met suspiciously at first but is eventually believed (usually).

This is on target with what is currently taught to family members. You don’t try to convince them their bizarre thoughts are wrong. You can say things like, “Gosh, it sounds really scary to have thoughts like that.” So you are validating the scary experience they are having without validating the things as actually being true. 

[gardenmom5]

the claiming the FBI told her new employer she had a fake stalker at her last job is reminding me of a woman on another group I was on years ago.  She would make up stuff like this for attention.   

 

eta: a woman of my acquaintance became paranoid/etc when she was having major thyroid problems.  when she was put on proper thyroid medication, it improved.

Edited December 12, 2022 by gardenmom5

[Carol in Cal.]

This does sound like real paranoia, but also, I have known people who kind of tilt in this direction and are played by others who think it is funny to see them overreact.  Just to say, there might be some truth in what she suspects, but almost certainly not in all of it.

Does she use MJ at all?  It is a proven contributor to initiation of schizophrenia, and if she uses it at all she should stop entirely.  Even supposedly THC free stuff like hemp CBD.

[Slache]

Just now, Carol in Cal. said:

This does sound like real paranoia, but also, I have known people who kind of tilt in this direction and are played by others who think it is funny to see them overreact.  Just to say, there might be some truth in what she suspects, but almost certainly not in all of it.

Does she use MJ at all?  It is a proven contributor to initiation of schizophrenia, and if she uses it at all she should stop entirely.  Even supposedly THC free stuff like hemp CBD.

No, she doesn't, but thank you. I will ask to be sure, but she's spoken against it every time it's been brought up.

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

I’m so sorry this is happening. I’m sure it was confusing and frightening when you realized she was serious. I’m glad she is living with people who love her and is getting therapy. I wonder how honest she is being with her therapist. The usual trajectory of this sort of behavior ends with inpatient treatment for stabilization or to prevent injury to self or others. People are willing to resort to violence and self injury when they don’t feel physically safe. *SIGH* I wonder if she is on psychotropic meds? Antipsychotics? 
I have a family member with a psychotic illness and my “solution” is a daily phone call. I can tell in about 30 seconds if they are taking their meds or not. But I know this is not a family member, so that level of engagement may be overwhelming and/or impossible. Many hugs to all involved. It’s not easy. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Big Buckin' Longhorn

[Slache]

3 minutes ago, Big Buckin' Longhorn said:

I’m so sorry this is happening. I’m sure it was confusing and frightening when you realized she was serious. I’m glad she is living with people who love her and is getting therapy. I wonder how honest she is being with her therapist. The usual trajectory of this sort of behavior ends with inpatient treatment for stabilization or to prevent injury to self or others. People are willing to resort to violence and self injury when they don’t feel physically safe.  *SIGH* I wonder if she is on psychotic meds? Antipsychotics? 
I have a family member with a psychotic illness and my “solution” is a daily phone call. I can tell in about 30 seconds if they are taking their meds or not. But I know this is not a family member, so that level of engagement may be overwhelming and/or impossible. Many hugs to all involved. It’s not easy. 

She's not on anything because it's new. Looking back I can see the escalation and that things have been bad for a while, but I chalked everything up to the divorce and depression, and I think everyone else did, too. She got out of a ten year abusive relationship and wasn't fine because of it, and that made sense to me. Figuring out the stalker wasn't real was upsetting, but this is just completely over the deep end and sudden, so I think it's kind of a shock to everyone. I need to call her mom.

[Not_a_Number]

I'm really sorry she's struggling. 

You can't argue her out of her paranoia. She sounds really unwell and I'm pretty sure all that would happen is that she'd stop talking to you or telling you stuff. 

I'd just listen and make noncommittal noises and try to be supportive without actually affirming her beliefs and give up on trying to convince her otherwise. 

This really sucks 😞 . I'm sorry. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[sassenach]

7 hours ago, pinball said:

Could she be bipolar?
 

Sometimes there can be components of psychosis.

This was my impression too, but I also hesitate to throw diagnoses out. But first impression sounds like an acute psych episode. 

[Not_a_Number]

11 minutes ago, sassenach said:

This was my impression too, but I also hesitate to throw diagnoses out. But first impression sounds like an acute psych episode. 

Hmmm, yes, my bipolar family member had an episode like this. 

[Clarita]

I'm so sorry this is happening. I had one prior friend who would make up ridiculous stories (They weren't based in reality but she may have believed them? I'm not sure.) I did cut off that friendship, it was too much for my younger self to deal with (essentially my life was threatened).

No good advice just hugs. Handling someone like that is so hard and very much out of the realm of what regular good friend can do.   

[KidsHappen]

If she is in fact in therapy and believes these things to be true and is sharing them with her therapist then the therapist will recognize this as a psychotic break in need of medication and maybe even inpatient care right away and will direct care in that direction. If you do not hear from her that things are moving in that direction and you know her mother well then it may be appropriate to call in regards to her well being. 

Also would you say that she had mental health issues before she got divorced? Other than maybe depression or anxiety? Because this seems like a pretty severe issue, something you might ordinarily consider bipolar or schizophrenia but given her age that would be pretty late onset for those two and the fact that they are not generally triggered by trauma makes me wonder if it is not something else entirely. Maybe a medical problem, some other lesser known mental health issue or I hate to even suggest this but does her ex have any access to her?   

[Scarlett]

4 hours ago, KidsHappen said:

If she is in fact in therapy and believes these things to be true and is sharing them with her therapist then the therapist will recognize this as a psychotic break in need of medication and maybe even inpatient care right away and will direct care in that direction. If you do not hear from her that things are moving in that direction and you know her mother well then it may be appropriate to call in regards to her well being. 

Also would you say that she had mental health issues before she got divorced? Other than maybe depression or anxiety? Because this seems like a pretty severe issue, something you might ordinarily consider bipolar or schizophrenia but given her age that would be pretty late onset for those two and the fact that they are not generally triggered by trauma makes me wonder if it is not something else entirely. Maybe a medical problem, some other lesser known mental health issue or I hate to even suggest this but does her ex have any access to her?   

I agree it does seem to be late onset of bipolar or schizophrenia. However my understanding is that it can be triggered by trauma. I was told that by my brother’s psych nurse, but I am not a doctor.  

[Scarlett]

33 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I agree it does seem to be late onset of bipolar or schizophrenia. However my understanding is that it can be triggered by trauma. I was told that by my brother’s psych nurse, but I am not a doctor.  

And a divorce can definitely be trauma.  

[KidsHappen]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I agree it does seem to be late onset of bipolar or schizophrenia. However my understanding is that it can be triggered by trauma. I was told that by my brother’s psych nurse, but I am not a doctor.  

Well the current belief is that childhood trauma may contribute to these illnesses but but they do not think that adult trauma triggers them if you are passed the age of onset.   

[gardenmom5]

15 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

Well the current belief is that childhood trauma may contribute to these illnesses but but they do not think that adult trauma triggers them if you are passed the age of onset.   

My mother was diagnosed schizophrenic after a psychotic break when I was 20, so she would have been in her late 40s.  she didn't have previous symptoms, though she did have a dysfunctional childhood.

[pinball]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

And a divorce can definitely be trauma.  

 

28 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

Well the current belief is that childhood trauma may contribute to these illnesses but but they do not think that adult trauma triggers them if you are passed the age of onset.   

Take all this with a grain of salt…but she might have been undiagnosed bipolar for a long time. And perhaps the first incident of “the co-worker stalking her” was part of a continuing mental health situation/crisis.

 

[Kanin]

17 hours ago, Slache said:

I also didn't say in the OP that schizophrenia runs in her family. I'm 99.9% sure that's exactly what's happening here. Her family knows something is very wrong and they are simultaneously trying to isolate her and marry her off to a good Christian man very quickly. It's a complete mess.

Oh, how terrible. DH's family pretends that nothing is happening, and ignores everything. It's maddening. I think it's been happening his whole life, so he's not about to rock the boat now. He just visits as little as possible. 😞  I think there are treatments for schizophrenia that can be very helpful and allow a person to lead a pretty normal life. 

[Slache]

11 minutes ago, Kanin said:

Oh, how terrible. DH's family pretends that nothing is happening, and ignores everything. It's maddening. I think it's been happening his whole life, so he's not about to rock the boat now. He just visits as little as possible. 😞  I think there are treatments for schizophrenia that can be very helpful and allow a person to lead a pretty normal life. 

She has a close relative with it and it's awful. The relative goes mute when I'm around, she's not had a job since very young, an absolutely miserable person. My friend says she thinks about suicide every day and I have to say, if that was my future I probably would too. I have no idea if this person is medicated or what her history is, I just know she's absolutely miserable every day with no end in sight and she's been that way for thirty or forty years. I think that's why her family wants her married so badly, so there's someone to take care of her, because relative needs full time care.

I think because of her I'm kinda imagining the worst, but between comments and PMs here and on Reddit it seems there are a lot of really good outcomes.

[Harriet Vane]

@KidsHappen brings up some really good points. 

With the family/genetic component, severe mental illness may really be on the table. 

However, I will suggest one further possibility from my own experience. I had a close relative who I thought was mentally ill for years. She was not. She had a slow-growing brain tumor. It was diagnosed roughly 17 years after I noticed the first outward symptom--her smile went crooked, and I remember being irritated with her thinking she was smiling like that to be "cute." It was only many years later after brain surgery that her smile straightened out and I was able to connect the dots. 

So a brain tumor is not very likely, but that or even Lyme disease are possibilities, too. 

I'm so sorry for your friend. It's terribly painful to watch someone suffer like this.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Better outcomes are obtained when people get an appropriate level of care including medications.  Going to a therapist by itself is not an appropriate level of care for someone who is having a break with reality.  And while family support is great, trying to marry her off is not family support. 

[gardenmom5]

19 hours ago, Slache said:

 

I also didn't say in the OP that schizophrenia runs in her family. I'm 99.9% sure that's exactly what's happening here. Her family knows something is very wrong and they are simultaneously trying to isolate her and marry her off to a good Christian man very quickly. It's a complete mess.

That is horribly unfair to the man, and any children that may be produced.  I hope if they snag a guy, someone warns him because no one should be tricked into that situation.  Speaking as someone with a schizophrenic mother.

eta: while my mom did well when appropriately medicated (after YEARS of a psychiatrist that treated her like a cash cow and kept her heavily drugged. we tried to get her to go elsewhere.), not evey one does.  I have two friends with sons who do no respond well to treatment.  And my deceased BIL (I'm sure) was untreated schizophrenic and the scary kind . . . . 

Her "i'm being stalked" doesn't sound like any schizophrenic I know - but does sound like my mil as she descended into dementia.

Edited December 12, 2022 by gardenmom5

[pinball]

21 hours ago, Slache said:

May I ask why you ended the relationship specifically? Did you feel unsafe or was it too difficult to maintain? Losing her is my biggest concern. She is long distance and I will put up with a lot. 

I also didn't say in the OP that schizophrenia runs in her family. I'm 99.9% sure that's exactly what's happening here. Her family knows something is very wrong and they are simultaneously trying to isolate her and marry her off to a good Christian man very quickly. It's a complete mess.

About your last paragraph…do you only know this from her? Or have you seen evidence independent from her?

Im wondering if her issues are wider spread than you think. IOW, she’s not a reliable narrator of what is actually happening

she is telling you what she believes is happening 

[Slache]

14 minutes ago, pinball said:

About your last paragraph…do you only know this from her? Or have you seen evidence independent from her?

Im wondering if her issues are wider spread than you think. IOW, she’s not a reliable narrator of what is actually happening

she is telling you what she believes is happening 

I know I can't trust her (she is honest, just the circumstances) but I'm extremely close with the family. I know they know everything except I don't know if they know about the FBI stuff. I know they made her move back home and that they're trying to get her to marry someone. I got into fight with them about it actually. He's a wonderful man, truly wonderful, but she absolutely does not want to marry him.

[Harriet Vane]

30 minutes ago, Slache said:

I know I can't trust her (she is honest, just the circumstances) but I'm extremely close with the family. I know they know everything except I don't know if they know about the FBI stuff. I know they made her move back home and that they're trying to get her to marry someone. I got into fight with them about it actually. He's a wonderful man, truly wonderful, but she absolutely does not want to marry him.

This sounds like something from a Victorian novel.

I feel sorry for the poor guy.

[Ottakee]

3 hours ago, Slache said:

I know I can't trust her (she is honest, just the circumstances) but I'm extremely close with the family. I know they know everything except I don't know if they know about the FBI stuff. I know they made her move back home and that they're trying to get her to marry someone. I got into fight with them about it actually. He's a wonderful man, truly wonderful, but she absolutely does not want to marry him.

You would hope they don’t get married then.  That is a recipe for another disaster.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

This sounds like something from a Victorian novel.

I feel sorry for the poor guy.

I’m sorry for the woman who’s being treated like damaged goods which need to be pawned off as soon as possible. It makes me wonder how she was valued growing up and if that fed into the dynamics of marrying an abuser. 

[Harriet Vane]

51 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I’m sorry for the woman who’s being treated like damaged goods which need to be pawned off as soon as possible. It makes me wonder how she was valued growing up and if that fed into the dynamics of marrying an abuser. 

Good point. Tragic all around. She needs help and it shouldn't be at that cost. Icky and weird and not likely to work.