Anyone NOT like holidays

[wintermom]

I used to be full-on Christmas concerts, activities, craziness when the dc were younger and involved in extra-curricular activities and we were involved in the music ministry at our church. December is much more relaxed now for me, however my dc have loads of school/university work this month. They will be ready for a nice mental break. 

I have really reduced the decorating, baking and activities that I do. There is just enough to be cozy in the long, dark nights of December.

[SKL]

I like Christmas, but it gets more stressful as people get older.  Gone are the days of easy gift giving.  Right now I'm trying to figure out how to package Amazon gift cards so I don't look lazy or cold.  And how to figure out my kids, one of whom wants nothing, while the other wants everything.

I do minimal holiday decorating and even more minimal cooking, so that probably helps.  I also don't stress over family visits, as I enjoy them.  Seasonal travel can get stressful, but the fun side usually outweighs the stress.

TBH I am not really in the Christmas spirit yet.  Hopefully we'll do something this weekend that brings it out a bit.

[Ottakee]

6 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

That is bugging me a lot this year. Like, even a party at my job would be nice. I don't fit neatly into any teams at work though, so I don't get invited to anything. No wonder this time of year feels so lonely. 

My work doesn’t have parties but we are going to get pizza after work one night but we do that about every 8 weeks.

Single/divorced moms in their 50s with 4 special needs young adults don’t fit neatly into any categories either.   Not even at church.

[OH_Homeschooler]

10 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

My work doesn’t have parties but we are going to get pizza after work one night but we do that about every 8 weeks.

Single/divorced moms in their 50s with 4 special needs young adults don’t fit neatly into any categories either.   Not even at church.

Yes I started a whole post about how I can't host my own party because I have no one to invite, then deleted. It's literally me and the kids against the world. I'm trying to find social groups but making new friends is hard, especially after a traumatic divorce in a new region. I've only made it to the acquaintance stage with some people. 

[marbel]

Re: having no parties. We used to have big parties, then had a traumatic situation at church that left us without our friends. But even before that break - we had the parties because we were never invited to anything. I mean, people apparently were happy to come to our house, seemed to have a good time, etc., but there was never reciprocation. Then when the break came, we apparently became invisible to everyone we had known. We went through a lot of badness from 2018 through Covid. We are just coming out of it now but still have no parties to go to and no one to invite. 

So all that to say - I am sorry for those who are lonely for friends at this time of year. It can be so hard to start over. And like others, I have never fit neatly into established categories. Hugs to all. 💗

[Corraleno]

I don't have very positive memories of Christmas when I was a kid. We only ever got new things for Christmas or birthdays, so there would be a huge amount of anticipation, poring over the Sears catalog circling and initialing things we wanted, and then on Christmas morning we'd open socks and underwear and pajamas and a maybe winter coat, and then there'd be 2 or 3 toys that might or might not be something we wanted. And there was always a big discrepancy between what the Golden Child got and the rest of us. Like the GC would get an Easybake Oven and a toy piano and Barbie house, and I'd get a plastic wallet, a book, and a pair of pants. One year I really really wanted a particular doll and my mother bought it — and then gave it to my sister, who hadn't asked for it. 

And then after I moved far far away from family I spent many Christmases alone, which was kind of depressing, and then I married my ex and moved to the UK, where holidays totally revolved around my MIL — to the extent that we renamed it  after her, lol (e.g. Judymas instead of Christmas). She'd give us long lists of things to buy her, and in return we'd get some completely random last-minute thing. One year my SIL and I each got trial sizes of makeup that MIL had gotten as a free gift-with-purchase, and then she made a big deal about how much she had to spend (on herself!) to get those, lol. And she was always completely smashed long before dinner — one year she was so drunk she knocked all the candles over and set fire to the tablecloth, then yelled at FIL for not sticking them into the candlesticks properly. He just stood up, pushed his chair in, and walked out the door without a word. It's funny in retrospect, but a decade of Judymas holidays were pretty stressful!

I'm proud of the fact that my kids have really happy memories of Christmas growing up; even if many of those holidays were unhappy for me (because of the dynamic with now-ex) they seemed blissfuly unaware of that. Since we moved to our current location 8 years ago, when they were 12 & 16, holidays have been really low key and stress free with just me and the kids (plus ex's developmentally disabled uncle until he passed away a few years ago). I decorate the house and put up a tree because I enjoy that, but I don't cook a big dinner or throw parties or send cards, although I might make cookies or cinnamon rolls if the kids ask. I text or email a few people on the day to wish them a Merry Christmas, but I only buy gifts for my kids; they tell me what they want, I add in a few little surprises, and I order pretty much everything online. Easy peasy. DS comes home next week, and this will be the first time in 3 years I'll have both kids under the same roof, so I'm pretty excited about that.

[Corraleno]

4 hours ago, Ottakee said:

Single/divorced moms in their 50s with 4 special needs young adults don’t fit neatly into any categories either.   Not even at church.

3 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

Yes I started a whole post about how I can't host my own party because I have no one to invite, then deleted. It's literally me and the kids against the world. I'm trying to find social groups but making new friends is hard, especially after a traumatic divorce in a new region. I've only made it to the acquaintance stage with some people. 

1 hour ago, marbel said:

 We went through a lot of badness from 2018 through Covid. We are just coming out of it now but still have no parties to go to and no one to invite. 

I really miss the group hug emoji we used to have. Sending big hugs to you and everyone else who finds the holidays lonely, sad, or stressful . 

[Eos]

15 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

Yes I started a whole post about how I can't host my own party because I have no one to invite, then deleted. It's literally me and the kids against the world. I'm trying to find social groups but making new friends is hard, especially after a traumatic divorce in a new region. I've only made it to the acquaintance stage with some people. 

Sending you quiet Advent peace.

[Dmmetler]

Christmas and new years is honestly a PTSD trigger for me. It's related to the pregnancy complications and death of my son,but multiple events since, including my MIL's death and my parents' car accident, play into that as well. This year has been hard since decorations start coming up. I have warned my college kid and my DH that if things get too intense, I will be grabbing my prepared bag and heading to a hotel to get a breather-because I'd rather not melt down and make things worse. 

 

My mother loved Christmas, and the fact that Christmas is hard for me has been a conflict for the last two decades. Last year was probably the best Christmas we'd had as a family in years, and it felt like I'd finally gotten control of my PTSD triggers, but also that my family had finally figured out that this is real and something that they needed to accept and take seriously. Unfortunately, it was also the last. 

[saw]

I like Christmas and actually enjoy decorating and all that stuff but I'm sick to death of having to spend every Christmas at my parents' (and since we generally live far away, that means a lot of travel). My brother gets to spend Christmas wherever he wants -- he asked my mom if he could use their vacation home in a very nice place for this Christmas and she let him without thinking to ask whether I'd be interested! It's just this annual expectation that the kids and I will spend Christmas with my parents or they will come to us. Before COVID, I spent exactly one Christmas not with my parents. It's not that they're awful because they're not; it's that unspoken requirement of attendance and knowing that I will disappoint if I don't show. And they don't decorate or do anything fun or listen to Christmas music, which is what saves Christmas for me. Rant over. 

[math teacher]

My main complaint about Christmas is "Didn't we Just Do This??" Time passes so quickly that the Christmas season is here again in no time.

[fraidycat]

I'm not sure what my overall feeling is regarding Christmas. I'm complicated. Lol

The past few years I have really struggled to find any "Christmas spirit". I don't feel an aversion to doing holiday things, just zero motivation to instigate any of it, including decorating or putting up the big tree. This year I bought a "pop up", pre-decorated tree for fifty bucks and set it up in about 1.5 minutes. Last year DH and DS set up the big tree but it never did get decorated, it is pre-lit, so we just had the lights on at night. 
 

I'm not sure if this will be an ongoing thing forever, or if it is just a season of life. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I don't hate the holidays, I just don't feel like "doing" them right now. Lol

 

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

I used to love the holidays.  One of my friends used to organize Christmas caroling on Christmas eve morning and we'd have a gathering at her house afterwards.  They were like my chosen family.  Ever since I was little, my family would have a big get-together on Christmas eve - we would order the main dinner and people would bring sides, etc.  When everyone had kids, it was even more fun experiencing it through their eyes.  Stressful, but fun.  My siblings are older than me.  As their kids got older, they started drinking more and it was a less kid-friendly environment for my family.  But I still loved seeing my nieces and nephews.  I would be my mom's chauffer and when things got rowdy, we would have the excuse to get mom home and my kids wouldn't have to be in that environment.  Christmas morning was usually calm and we would have a quiet dinner with dh's family that day.  Going to mass was a big part of things and being involved in church made that fun. 

After my mom died in early December 2009, we had one last family gathering.  Several of my cousins came in from out of state and we had a blast going through old slides from when we were kids.  That was the last great Christmas.  My sister who used to host moved out of state.  I tried to host, but nobody wanted to come to my house because I'm just not fun enough I guess.  My seasonal affective disorder, which made December tiring in the past, really kicked into high gear.  A few years later, my friend stopped organizing the caroling and party on Christmas eve.  I tried to keep it going, but just couldn't find the energy to maintain it.  People just weren't interested when I was the host.  

When K got sick and, near the same time, became rabidly anti-Christian, anti-capitalism, anti anything really, it really took the joy out of our holidays.  People at church as well as people I considered close friends distanced themselves around this time ... some because mental illness = cooties and some due to disapproval over K being transgender.  Everything became so tense ... walking on eggshells all the time. I began to dread the holidays. Struggling to find meaningful gifts for immediate family, reciprocating gifts to people we don't know as well, etc.  I used to do a holiday newsletter filled that I tried to make funny, not braggy - lots of fun pictures and self-deprecating humor.  But K won't let us take pictures of her any more so I didn't feel like I could just leave her out.  Plus I didn't want to announce our family trauma in a holiday card.  

So the holidays used to be a fun but exhausting time, then I tried to keep it a fun time but it was the most to do with the least amount of energy.  Then it just because a time when I just went through the motions for my kids.  Now that K seems to be doing better and is not hostile to having the holidays (as long as we don't involve her in anything religious), its a little better.  But I still feel like "what's the point?" 

I'm trying to find the energy to do a little bit to make things special since my two out of state kids will be coming home.  I'm trying to reimagine a stripped down, more meaningful time and not mourn what we used to have.  But its hard.  SAD, loss of friends, hearing about others having a grand old time with things to do, places to go, people to see while it's just me and dh - it wears on me.    

[teachermom2834]

I don’t hate them exactly but I’m have had a very difficult time transitioning to what they mean without little kids. I feel like there is still some kind of expectation that I have no way of meeting- yet I think I am the only one with the expectation? When they were little there was a lot of work but I knew what to do and there was an expected payoff. With adult kids and no grandkids yet (and one young teen still at home) I’m very off balance. I don’t really know what to do with it all and it’s very uncomfortable. 
 

Like I’m going to cook a nice and expensive dinner on Christmas Eve and that is a nice gift to the grown up family and feels like a nice special tradition type thing. But still feels odd to not have tangible things to unwrap? But what to give to adult kids that have way more disposable cash than dh and I? And what about some adult kids in that position but others aren’t? It’s just kind of odd and I don’t know what to do with it exactly. Feels off balance and anti-climatic even though no one is complaining. 
 

I can do for my 14 yo differently than the big kids so that helps. I know some families that causes tension if things aren’t equal but my 24 yo ds isn’t going to be mad that my 14 yo dd gets more presents. So super thankful I don’t have that kind of pressure. 
 

Anyways I’m just in an odd place with bigger kids who are attached to significant others but haven’t actually started their own families yet. I know some in my position will do things like go drive around and look at Christmas lights or do a family craft or project or something but my big boys would have been hard pressed to act like they enjoyed that as kids. They aren’t going to want to do that as adults. So it might be a “boring people are bored” kind of thing. Lol. 
 

It’s kind of a lot of pressure. But why is it on me to make it fun for everyone or feel guilty if it isn’t? 

[Kassia]

12 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

But what to give to adult kids that have way more disposable cash than dh and I?

Anyways I’m just in an odd place with bigger kids who are attached to significant others but haven’t actually started their own families yet. I know some in my position will do things like go drive around and look at Christmas lights or do a family craft or project or something but my big boys would have been hard pressed to act like they enjoyed that as kids. They aren’t going to want to do that as adults. So it might be a “boring people are bored” kind of thing. Lol. 
 

It’s kind of a lot of pressure. But why is it on me to make it fun for everyone or feel guilty if it isn’t? 

This is a big part of why I hate Christmas now.  I feel like it's so much pressure on me to keep everyone happy.  It's a lot of work and I don't feel the payoff I did when the kids were little and everything was so fun and exciting.  My kids don't need money and none of them are settled in one place yet, so they don't want *stuff* since they are always planning the next move.  They are here for a long time during the holidays and we don't have enough space and there aren't many meals we all like (different diets/preferences).  It's just a huge disruption to my routine, sleep, etc. and it's exhausting.  Love them.  Love seeing them.  Especially love it if we're all together, but it's just too much with all of us under one roof for a long period of time.  

[teachermom2834]

2 minutes ago, Kassia said:

This is a big part of why I hate Christmas now.  I feel like it's so much pressure on me to keep everyone happy.  It's a lot of work and I don't feel the payoff I did when the kids were little and everything was so fun and exciting.  My kids don't need money and none of them are settled in one place yet, so they don't want *stuff* since they are always planning the next move.  They are here for a long time during the holidays and we don't have enough space and there aren't many meals we all like (different diets/preferences).  It's just a huge disruption to my routine, sleep, etc. and it's exhausting.  Love them.  Love seeing them.  Especially love it if we're all together, but it's just too much with all of us under one roof for a long period of time.  

I totally understand! Except here everyone isn’t coming home for long. Even my college student is an RA and staying on campus alot to make extra money and only popping in and out. So we won’t have everyone for extended periods of time. Just a day or two here and there. Even that seems like alot and then I find myself feeling guilty that I am kind of relieved they won’t all be here for two weeks. My dh was asking me this morning everyone’s plans and I told him I didn’t know what one ds and girlfriend is doing and maybe they won’t come at all and I kind of said that it was fine- we just saw them. It sounded awful as it was coming out of my mouth but having everyone here really is alot of pressure. I’d love it if they come…but if they don’t that really is ok too. And then I feel guilty for saying/thinking that. Ugh. Mom life is just hard! 

[Kassia]

16 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

and maybe they won’t come at all and I kind of said that it was fine- we just saw them. It sounded awful as it was coming out of my mouth but having everyone here really is alot of pressure. I’d love it if they come…but if they don’t that really is ok too. And then I feel guilty for saying/thinking that. Ugh. Mom life is just hard! 

Thank you for sharing.  I'm glad it's not just me.  I know some people love a full house but I really don't and I feel like the worst mom thinking that way.  I'm envious of my friends who have kids living nearby and they can visit and go home.  I love seeing the kids and spending time with them but not 24/7 in a house that's not big enough and figuring out meals and always having to feel like I'm *on*.  

[teachermom2834]

@Kassiasince my kids have been grown I have liked the dynamic when we can visit and then go home. My oldest lives 1.5 hours away so while he will stay the night on Christmas Eve he will often just come in for the day or we meet him somewhere for dinner. It is great. And he’s a super agreeable easy going guy. But it is fine with me to visit and then go home. And especially nice now that he has a new girlfriend we hardly know that we don’t have to host overnight. 
 

Over Thanksgiving when we were all together one of the girlfriends was suggesting all the grown kids get an AirBnB when they next all come visit so that I don’t have to host everyone. That isn’t necessary- they really can all stay- but I am not going to be hurt if they do it. I know that would really upset some people but not me. We would visit and then go home when we were ready. It would be absolutely fine! And I really love my kids and I know you do yours!

Dh and I are going to move this summer and we are heavily debating house size. The “have room for everyone” vs. “they can get an AirBnB”. We just are a bunch that likes to retreat to our own space I guess.

[Kassia]

19 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

 

Over Thanksgiving when we were all together one of the girlfriends was suggesting all the grown kids get an AirBnB when they next all come visit so that I don’t have to host everyone. That isn’t necessary- they really can all stay- but I am not going to be hurt if they do it. I know that would really upset some people but not me. We would visit and then go home when we were ready. It would be absolutely fine! And I really love my kids and I know you do yours!

Dh and I are going to move this summer and we are heavily debating house size. The “have room for everyone” vs. “they can get an AirBnB”. We just are a bunch that likes to retreat to our own space I guess.

I've thought of the airbnb too.  I think it would be easier and less stressful for everyone while still having plenty of time together.  OTOH, it seems like a waste since we have enough space but barely.  I don't think DH would go for spending the money.

And we want to move and are having the same discussion over the size of our next home.  I'd love to downsize but also have a place to stay for kids and eventual grandkids.  Definitely a tough decision but we're not close to moving like you are.

 

 

[shawthorne44]

I normally love holidays, particularly Christmas.   But I am depressed now.   Daughter, aged 12, is literally getting coal wrapped in a pretty box.   I never thought that would happen.   

Apparently, she has been lying consistently to us for a long time and we didn't catch on because we thought she was trustworthy.   Monday, she lied about starting the dishwasher.   If she'd told me the truth, I merely would have been grumpy.   She was banned from using the dishwasher,   She had been loading the dishwasher without even looking at what she was putting in.   For example, I found a RECEIPT in the dishwasher.    A grocery store one about 10" long.   This was on top of her other favorite trick of leaving dishes sitting around for days until the food is dry and hardened.   Then the wash wouldn't clean it, and the dry cycle would really bake it on.   Then she'd put the dishes away dirty without even looking at them.    The same day I found the receipt, I also found a sauce pan put away but in the wrong place with still wet sauce in it.  So, she loaded the dishwasher (with large hunks of food on the dishes) and started it.  She lied and told me she hadn't.   That was Monday.    Monday night I took away her mp3 player.   Phone has been gone for awhile and she won't get that back until she starts to drive.  Tuesday night, she is in bed and DH asks her if she is listening to something.   She lies and says No, that she just has the headphones on to shut out the world.   We can understand that.  Except when her headphones get shut off, one of her hats hanging on her door starts to play an audiobook.   This is less than 24 hours after being caught lying.  

Then you add in that is important to me that we have Christmas at home with daughter.  Christmases before I was 8.5 we lived near family.   I don't remember a single one.  They were like every other holiday, miserable, driving around to multiple houses and having to be quiet while the old people talked.  I don't have any cousins.  So, starting when DD was 2, I insisted we stay home.   Everyone is invited and no hard feelings for anyone that can't come.  I am an only child, so sometimes it has just been my parents.   Sometimes I thought 8 would come and 20 would.   All good.  
Since the lockdown, my mother hasn't wanted to leave the house.  She's gone out twice a year.    Walking up or down even a tiny step is hard for her.   We built a concrete ramp in our new garage.  Not just for her, but because we never want to leave here.   Now she says that she doesn't think she can do the drive.     So, I am also sad that mom's health has reached that point.  

 

 

[shawthorne44]

On the idea of an AirBnb.   I used to know someone who got divorced when they were in their 70's.    His wife insisted on keeping the house so that "The family could come home for the holidays."   This was a 5,000 sq.ft. house that they were paying 30K a year in property taxes.    
I pointed out if she moved to a two-bedroom house.   She could take the money saved in property taxes and rent out the floor of a hotel for Christmas and Thanksgiving, include a hospitality suite to set up random food and drinks that people like to have around at holidays, and buy a catered dinner from the hotel, and still come out ahead.  AirBnb would be even better.  

[teachermom2834]

7 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

On the idea of an AirBnb.   I used to know someone who got divorced when they were in their 70's.    His wife insisted on keeping the house so that "The family could come home for the holidays."   This was a 5,000 sq.ft. house that they were paying 30K a year in property taxes.    
I pointed out if she moved to a two-bedroom house.   She could take the money saved in property taxes and rent out the floor of a hotel for Christmas and Thanksgiving, include a hospitality suite to set up random food and drinks that people like to have around at holidays, and buy a catered dinner from the hotel, and still come out ahead.  AirBnb would be even better.  

Yes this is the kind of thing we could do! I’m more interested in downsizing than dh. He just can’t imagine going smaller even though we went from six people to three and dd is in high school. I would even buy with the idea she stayed with us while she went to college but we don’t need a huge house just in case. If we add up the monthly savings we could have a couple big parties a year 🙂 

My kids don’t come home that often. I think it would be lonely to have a big empty house just waiting for them. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by teachermom2834

[Kanin]

I like the holidays, but we're extremely low key. I would very much dislike the holidays if I had to travel a lot, spend a ton of time with lots of extended family, and buy lots of gifts. I like Christmas lights, time to relax, eating chocolates, reading books, and drinking coffee on the couch 😄 

[Garga]

I’ve been feeling blah about Christmas this year and am not exactly sure why.

But one thing that helps is that I’m not overextended. I have very little family nearby, so the demands for time with family and gift-giving are small.

If you can knock a bunch of stuff off your obligation list that’ll help, but I‘m also well aware that it’s very hard to get out of obligations (that’s why they’re called obligations, I suppose.)

[Terabith]

32 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

I normally love holidays, particularly Christmas.   But I am depressed now.   Daughter, aged 12, is literally getting coal wrapped in a pretty box.   I never thought that would happen.   

Apparently, she has been lying consistently to us for a long time and we didn't catch on because we thought she was trustworthy.   Monday, she lied about starting the dishwasher.   If she'd told me the truth, I merely would have been grumpy.   She was banned from using the dishwasher,   She had been loading the dishwasher without even looking at what she was putting in.   For example, I found a RECEIPT in the dishwasher.    A grocery store one about 10" long.   This was on top of her other favorite trick of leaving dishes sitting around for days until the food is dry and hardened.   Then the wash wouldn't clean it, and the dry cycle would really bake it on.   Then she'd put the dishes away dirty without even looking at them.    The same day I found the receipt, I also found a sauce pan put away but in the wrong place with still wet sauce in it.  So, she loaded the dishwasher (with large hunks of food on the dishes) and started it.  She lied and told me she hadn't.   That was Monday.    Monday night I took away her mp3 player.   Phone has been gone for awhile and she won't get that back until she starts to drive.  Tuesday night, she is in bed and DH asks her if she is listening to something.   She lies and says No, that she just has the headphones on to shut out the world.   We can understand that.  Except when her headphones get shut off, one of her hats hanging on her door starts to play an audiobook.   This is less than 24 hours after being caught lying.  

Then you add in that is important to me that we have Christmas at home with daughter.  Christmases before I was 8.5 we lived near family.   I don't remember a single one.  They were like every other holiday, miserable, driving around to multiple houses and having to be quiet while the old people talked.  I don't have any cousins.  So, starting when DD was 2, I insisted we stay home.   Everyone is invited and no hard feelings for anyone that can't come.  I am an only child, so sometimes it has just been my parents.   Sometimes I thought 8 would come and 20 would.   All good.  
Since the lockdown, my mother hasn't wanted to leave the house.  She's gone out twice a year.    Walking up or down even a tiny step is hard for her.   We built a concrete ramp in our new garage.  Not just for her, but because we never want to leave here.   Now she says that she doesn't think she can do the drive.     So, I am also sad that mom's health has reached that point.  

 

 

I get that you are frustrated, but this really seems like a case where you need to step up supervision, not take away everything that she loves and give her coal for Christmas.  I find myself thinking "of course she is lying to get out of trouble" when you are this upset about the dishwasher.  

I think doing these things is something you will really regret in 10 or 15 years.

[madteaparty]

On 12/7/2022 at 3:35 PM, prairiewindmomma said:

I still do stockings, presents, a small tree and wreath on the door, photo cards, and holiday meal but let the rest go. 

What else are we doing? Because o don’t even do all the things on this list and do not feel like the Grinch…

[Ottakee]

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

I get that you are frustrated, but this really seems like a case where you need to step up supervision, not take away everything that she loves and give her coal for Christmas.  I find myself thinking "of course she is lying to get out of trouble" when you are this upset about the dishwasher.  

I think doing these things is something you will really regret in 10 or 15 years.

I agree.  I try not to ask questions I already know the answer to….no chance to lie then.

it sounds like a fairly typical 12 year old thing.  She might need more supervision and checking up on during dish time.  Unless she is doing something dangerous online I  would give back the mp3 player for music and audio books.

[Garga]

5 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

I normally love holidays, particularly Christmas.   But I am depressed now.   Daughter, aged 12, is literally getting coal wrapped in a pretty box.   I never thought that would happen.   

Apparently, she has been lying consistently to us for a long time and we didn't catch on because we thought she was trustworthy.   Monday, she lied about starting the dishwasher.   If she'd told me the truth, I merely would have been grumpy.   She was banned from using the dishwasher,   She had been loading the dishwasher without even looking at what she was putting in.   For example, I found a RECEIPT in the dishwasher.    A grocery store one about 10" long.   This was on top of her other favorite trick of leaving dishes sitting around for days until the food is dry and hardened.   Then the wash wouldn't clean it, and the dry cycle would really bake it on.   Then she'd put the dishes away dirty without even looking at them.    The same day I found the receipt, I also found a sauce pan put away but in the wrong place with still wet sauce in it.  So, she loaded the dishwasher (with large hunks of food on the dishes) and started it.  She lied and told me she hadn't.   That was Monday.    Monday night I took away her mp3 player.   Phone has been gone for awhile and she won't get that back until she starts to drive.  Tuesday night, she is in bed and DH asks her if she is listening to something.   She lies and says No, that she just has the headphones on to shut out the world.   We can understand that.  Except when her headphones get shut off, one of her hats hanging on her door starts to play an audiobook.   This is less than 24 hours after being caught lying.  

Then you add in that is important to me that we have Christmas at home with daughter.  Christmases before I was 8.5 we lived near family.   I don't remember a single one.  They were like every other holiday, miserable, driving around to multiple houses and having to be quiet while the old people talked.  I don't have any cousins.  So, starting when DD was 2, I insisted we stay home.   Everyone is invited and no hard feelings for anyone that can't come.  I am an only child, so sometimes it has just been my parents.   Sometimes I thought 8 would come and 20 would.   All good.  
Since the lockdown, my mother hasn't wanted to leave the house.  She's gone out twice a year.    Walking up or down even a tiny step is hard for her.   We built a concrete ramp in our new garage.  Not just for her, but because we never want to leave here.   Now she says that she doesn't think she can do the drive.     So, I am also sad that mom's health has reached that point.  

 

 

So, she’s a total slob about dishes and lies about it, and because of that you’re only giving her coal? Or are you giving her something else and the coal is meant to make a point? (ETA: Went back and re-read and see that she’s lied a number of times. Also see that you’re taking her phone away from her for four years. Even though she’s lied multiple times, I still stand by what I wrote below.)

Totally ruining her Christmas because she’s a slob about dishes and then lies about it is going to make her hate you for years and she will 100% detest Christmas, probably for decades. She’ll be 35 years old and be telling people about how her parents literally gave her coal for Christmas one year because she lied about doing the dishes. 

Please, I hope I’m reading it wrong and you’re thinking, “Oh my goodness, Garga! Of course we’re also getting her presents and will make Christmas special! The coal is just to make a point!”  But if I’m not reading it wrong, you’re making a huge mistake. Huge. She has broken the trust you had in her, but if you purposely ruin her Christmas as punishment, you will have broken the trust she has in you and you might not ever get it back.

If I was a child and my parents purposely ruined Christmas for me in this way, I can’t imagine being capable of forgiving them for years upon years. And I would never trust them again. It could also break my ability to trust others—I’d be scared that anyone I love could weaponize special days and use them against me. Sure, she may say she forgives you and that she understands but she’ll be saying that just because she’s gotta live with you and keep the peace and you have the awesome power to ruin the biggest day of the year for a child. But she won’t forgive or understand on the inside.

I really hope I’m sounding melodramatic because I’ve totally misunderstood what you wrote.

 

ETA: There can be consequences to her actions. Coal for Christmas is not a good choice. And making a punishment that lasts for 4 years will be so demoralizing to her that she’s going to quickly get to the place of, “Well what else have I got to lose?” and see herself as a bad kid who might as well do what she wants because there’s no coming back from punishments that last for 4 years. You can force her down a road where that’s what she becomes—a bad kid—because if she is going to suffer 4-year long punishments, the “sin” might as well be spectacular to make it worth it.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Garga

[teachermom2834]

@shawthorne44I am sorry your dd is exasperating you so. That age can be so hard for so many kids and their moms. It is mind blowing the things they do sometimes and they just don’t make sense. And it is a gut punch when you find that they are not truthful when you were operating on the assumption they are. So I am so sorry you are dealing with all that.

I am sure you are coming from a place that you feel it is necessary but a pretty box filled with coal for Christmas is unlikely to solve your problems and very likely to be the reason your dd someday says she hates Christmas or doesn’t see her parents for a holiday or something like that. That is a really extreme gesture. I’m not looking to pile on and I know you did not ask for advice. But I can see myself in your post and I’m pretty sure I at some point told my dh that my kids should be getting coal. But now that they are grown I am 100% certain that would have solved nothing and I am so glad I never did that. Like I am so so relieved that if I ever had that impulse I did not follow through. 
 

I am sure you have good intentions and don’t care what a message board warrior has to say, I just felt the need to say something. Because I know you love your dd and want this to be better and I trust that you have the best intentions. This also seems like it could be a pivotal point in your dd’s life- and not because she opened a box of coal and saw the error of her ways. It just doesn’t work that way. 
 

I won’t comment again. Best wishes to you and your family. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

1 hour ago, Ottakee said:

I agree.  I try not to ask questions I already know the answer to….no chance to lie then.

it sounds like a fairly typical 12 year old thing.  She might need more supervision and checking up on during dish time.  Unless she is doing something dangerous online I  would give back the mp3 player for music and audio books.

I’ve found my 12 year old needs more supervision now than he did at 9 or 10.  There’s no lying, but he has suddenly become deeply frustrating.  In fact he lost his electronics all last week because of disrespect and unkindness.

I think 12 is just a really hard age. They look and sound like teenagers, but really are still kids who need supervision, love, and even Santa Claus.  It’s just easy to look at my boy who needs deodorant and has some peach fuzz and is as tall as me and expect more out of him than he is developmentally able to give.

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Terabith]

I have MAJOR guilt and regret that when my kid was 8, they threw a (pretty epically big) tantrum over something math related, and I didn't let them go to a pumpkin patch the following Saturday.  (We still went to a different one with everyone later that fall.). But now that that 8 year old is 19, I look back on it, and I am like, "Why on earth did I think this was such a big deal?  Why did I take away something so big?"  

My kid doesn't even remember it.  But I do, and I have real, genuine, massive regrets over having been too hard on them.  

You will definitely regret taking away a phone for four years (and....she was listening to an audiobook, not sending nudes) and giving coal for Christmas.  

[Garga]

10 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I have MAJOR guilt and regret that when my kid was 8, they threw a (pretty epically big) tantrum over something math related, and I didn't let them go to a pumpkin patch the following Saturday.  (We still went to a different one with everyone later that fall.). But now that that 8 year old is 19, I look back on it, and I am like, "Why on earth did I think this was such a big deal?  Why did I take away something so big?"  

My kid doesn't even remember it.  But I do, and I have real, genuine, massive regrets over having been too hard on them.  

You will definitely regret taking away a phone for four years (and....she was listening to an audiobook, not sending nudes) and giving coal for Christmas.  

I agree. Taking the phone away for 4 years and destroying her Christmas is setting yourself up for personal self-inflicted heartbreak. No wonder you’re depressed this Christmas. You are actively ruining the relationship you have with your daughter, though you might not see it yet. 

I should probably stop posting on this because it actually makes my heart feel sore thinking of the pain you’re going to cause your child and will cause yourself. You will certainly have regrets. 

I love the advice people have given to start keeping a closer eye on her—but not in a punitive way. Simply back up a bit and be more hands on with her while you get through this rough patch. Spend more time with her and strengthen the bonds you have with each other. Do a bunch of Christmas activities together and reconnect with her. Have fun with her. And tell her that you overreacted and she can have her phone back in January, but with supervision until you feel that she’s ready to have it more often. And give her the audio books/music back pretty soon as well. Come at this with a view of strengthening your bonds and spending more time together, rather than having a view of punishing or pitting yourselves against each other.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Garga

[Harriet Vane]

7 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

I normally love holidays, particularly Christmas.   But I am depressed now.   Daughter, aged 12, is literally getting coal wrapped in a pretty box.   I never thought that would happen.   

Apparently, she has been lying consistently to us for a long time and we didn't catch on because we thought she was trustworthy.   Monday, she lied about starting the dishwasher.   If she'd told me the truth, I merely would have been grumpy.   She was banned from using the dishwasher,   She had been loading the dishwasher without even looking at what she was putting in.   For example, I found a RECEIPT in the dishwasher.    A grocery store one about 10" long.   This was on top of her other favorite trick of leaving dishes sitting around for days until the food is dry and hardened.   Then the wash wouldn't clean it, and the dry cycle would really bake it on.   Then she'd put the dishes away dirty without even looking at them.    The same day I found the receipt, I also found a sauce pan put away but in the wrong place with still wet sauce in it.  So, she loaded the dishwasher (with large hunks of food on the dishes) and started it.  She lied and told me she hadn't.   That was Monday.    Monday night I took away her mp3 player.   Phone has been gone for awhile and she won't get that back until she starts to drive.  Tuesday night, she is in bed and DH asks her if she is listening to something.   She lies and says No, that she just has the headphones on to shut out the world.   We can understand that.  Except when her headphones get shut off, one of her hats hanging on her door starts to play an audiobook.   This is less than 24 hours after being caught lying.  

Then you add in that is important to me that we have Christmas at home with daughter.  Christmases before I was 8.5 we lived near family.   I don't remember a single one.  They were like every other holiday, miserable, driving around to multiple houses and having to be quiet while the old people talked.  I don't have any cousins.  So, starting when DD was 2, I insisted we stay home.   Everyone is invited and no hard feelings for anyone that can't come.  I am an only child, so sometimes it has just been my parents.   Sometimes I thought 8 would come and 20 would.   All good.  
Since the lockdown, my mother hasn't wanted to leave the house.  She's gone out twice a year.    Walking up or down even a tiny step is hard for her.   We built a concrete ramp in our new garage.  Not just for her, but because we never want to leave here.   Now she says that she doesn't think she can do the drive.     So, I am also sad that mom's health has reached that point.  

 

 

Re your daughter--

Please reconsider Christmas. The wound will not be proportionate to the behavior. Use Christmas as a time to connect, not wound.

I am a foster parent. I have dealt with my own kids, and I have dealt with many, many hard behavior problems--including dishonesty--from other children and teens I have cared for. 

For chores, you will need to supervise. Don't be ugly and angry and punitive in the process. Just be there, training for the job in a matter-of-fact way. Reward the successful end of the job with a praise--"Good work!"--or a thirty-minute break or a nice cup of cocoa together. Forget that dd should already know how to do it. She's a kid and kids go backwards sometimes. It's your job to train them from where they are. She's either reacting in an immature way to the work itself or she's craving connection with you or both.

The formula:  Training with connection + praise with connection

For the audio stories, simply ask her to give you the headphones at night. Explain kindly that she needs a good rest. If she needs a little something to block noise, use a regular cloth headband. That answers her stated need without giving the stimulation of the story. The idea is that you are there to help her form good habits. Reward her the next day whenever it is an appropriate time to listen to stories by giving her the mp3 player and the headphones to enjoy for a time. Collect them back when that time is done.

This is training. When a child disobeys and lies, they show you they need more training and more connection. Be matter-of-fact about the training. Be generous in connecting with love. 

[Tanaqui]

Not to dogpile here, but shawthorne, you need to reconsider. What you're talking about doing - four years no electronics, no presents for Christmas but a literal lump of coal - that starts to look less like appropriate discipline and more like emotional abuse.

And I'm not loving the way you're talking about her either. "Her favorite trick"? Do you think she was forgetting to wash the dishes because she's trying to be a jerk? Is it her job to wash the dishes? I'm not clear on this. If it's her job, I think it'd be better to unban her from the dishwasher and to simply watch her as she loads it up and make sure she doesn't miss anything or put it in weirdly.

[shawthorne44]

11 hours ago, Garga said:

I agree. Taking the phone away for 4 years and destroying her Christmas is setting yourself up for personal self-inflicted heartbreak. No wonder you’re depressed this Christmas. You are actively ruining the relationship you have with your daughter, though you might not see it yet. 

Well, the phone thing wasn't a punishment and she understands that.    The problem with smart phones is that they actively try to destroy our kids.   Just try to remove YouTube from a phone.    Then you think you can at least not allow TikTok by not getting the app, but they thwart you in that too with "YouTube Shorts."   Even when your kid isn't trying to find anything bad, she views what she thinks is a game video for this game aimed at younger kids and the characters are having strange s--.   I remember one time DD was sick and we looked at "Funny cat videos" together on YouTube on the desktop computer.   Some sick stuff started to appear in the suggested videos so we had to stop.  Then the phones make it super-easy to disable any parental control apps.  She does have a tablet that she can skype her friends, and she can use my phone for calls.  The only legit other use of the phone was for  audiobooks therefore the mp3 player.   

She might not actually get coal.   Christmas isn't until two weeks from now.   I just need to figure out a way to get her to understand how wrong it is to lie.  

[Soror]

1 hour ago, shawthorne44 said:

Well, the phone thing wasn't a punishment and she understands that.    The problem with smart phones is that they actively try to destroy our kids.   Just try to remove YouTube from a phone.    Then you think you can at least not allow TikTok by not getting the app, but they thwart you in that too with "YouTube Shorts."   Even when your kid isn't trying to find anything bad, she views what she thinks is a game video for this game aimed at younger kids and the characters are having strange s--.   I remember one time DD was sick and we looked at "Funny cat videos" together on YouTube on the desktop computer.   Some sick stuff started to appear in the suggested videos so we had to stop.  Then the phones make it super-easy to disable any parental control apps.  She does have a tablet that she can skype her friends, and she can use my phone for calls.  The only legit other use of the phone was for  audiobooks therefore the mp3 player.   

She might not actually get coal.   Christmas isn't until two weeks from now.   I just need to figure out a way to get her to understand how wrong it is to lie.  

(hugs) 12 can be a very hard age for them and us

Have you considered the fact that she's a little crazy from the hormones??? This can be way, way rougher on some than others. If it is so out of character for her perhaps there is a reason. 

We've had some big screw ups here and invariably there was something going on-- mental health struggles, hormonal issues etc. That doesn't excuse the behavior but you can't get figure things out if you don't know the why. We still addressed the issue--- ie this is a natural consequence for this action and as a result of the break in trust this is how xyz is done. But in tandem with that you don't ask questions if you already know the answer. If you know she did something don't ask her you're just testing her she's going to be in trouble either way she's gambling that maybe you'll believe her and she'll get out of it. Teens brains aren't fully formed and get wonky. They don't need extra opportunities to lie. If you know she did something then come out with it and get on with the appropriate consequence. 

Also, pick your battles. They are coming to an age where there will be huge massive things. Not everything is a hill to die on and you don't want to pick them to death on all the little stuff. If you want to be the one that she turns to with those big problems you got to focus on the important things. 

Find things she is good at. Praise her strengths. She likely feels all out of sorts too. She probably feels like she can't do anything right. No one is all bad and you don't want to make that her identity.

I've made it out the other side of two teens that went through exceedingly rough spells. The relationship has to change and it is a hard time for them. They are going through so many changes. Just because some go through this easily doesn't mean she's bad if it is hard for her. Some kids just have an easier time of it.--- pick your battles, think about making consequences that make sense and don't belabor it make it matter of fact, find the good in her, and look for opportunities for her to grow and be independent and see her success there. 

[Harriet Vane]

2 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

Well, the phone thing wasn't a punishment and she understands that.    The problem with smart phones is that they actively try to destroy our kids.   Just try to remove YouTube from a phone.    Then you think you can at least not allow TikTok by not getting the app, but they thwart you in that too with "YouTube Shorts."   Even when your kid isn't trying to find anything bad, she views what she thinks is a game video for this game aimed at younger kids and the characters are having strange s--.   I remember one time DD was sick and we looked at "Funny cat videos" together on YouTube on the desktop computer.   Some sick stuff started to appear in the suggested videos so we had to stop.  Then the phones make it super-easy to disable any parental control apps.  She does have a tablet that she can skype her friends, and she can use my phone for calls.  The only legit other use of the phone was for  audiobooks therefore the mp3 player.   

She might not actually get coal.   Christmas isn't until two weeks from now.   I just need to figure out a way to get her to understand how wrong it is to lie.  

The natural consequence for lying is the lack of trust and increased supervision. For a teen who feels the urge to be a grownup, being watched like a much younger child is very hard. 

[Tanaqui]

She didn't lie because she doesn't understand that it's wrong to tell your parents you're not staying awake in bed listening to an audiobook when you ought to be asleep or that you shouldn't tell them you didn't use the dishwasher when you did. She lied because she didn't want to get into trouble. She knows that it wasn't the most morally upright action, and probably already felt a little bad about it even as she did it.

If you give an excessive punishment, your child feels they have no recourse but to be dishonest. Then they lie.

Everything you said here sounds age appropriate. I mean, obviously we don't want our kids to do it, but it's perfectly commonplace and normal, and overreaction is only going to make things worse.

You will get better results with a punishment that fits the crime - a serious talk about how disappointed you are that she resorted to lying about something that, at the end of the day, was really rather trivial, and a resolution that until she gets over the bad habit, you'll be supervising more closely. Watching when she washes dishes, putting the electronics carefully away at the end of the night rather than trusting her to do it.  That's really all you need to do, and it sends the message better than something big and showy which will only confirm to her that she made the right decision when she chose to be dishonest.

[shawthorne44]

I am coming out of my depression, and I think she is in the process of understanding why lying is wrong.  I told her once she does a presentation on why lying is wrong and convincing her daddy and I that she understands, then she'll get the mp3 player back and playdates can resume.   So she has been working on that.  She only missed one playdate, the one the same day she lied.

When she was younger, we used to listen to the same book together at bedtime.   We went from my reading her picture books at bedtime, then us listening to audiobooks together with her in bed, then using a bluetooth speaker placed between us, we'd listen to the same book in our own beds, then when she got the phone she'd listen to her own book and I'd listen to mine.   Last night, we went back to listening to the same book using the bluetooth speaker.  It was nice.  I think we both liked it.  Although the switch to listening to our own book had been her choice, probably she wanted to continue the book she'd listened to earlier in the day.  

Back to the original question, I'm still a bit sad about Christmas, but I'll make the best of it.  We are pretty lucky.  

 

[freesia]

Have you considered counseling at all? I found short term counseling to be very helpful for me when my dd was 13. It helped me to respond rather than react and to not let my own anxiety get mixed up with her normal developmental behavior. 

[Ditto]

On 12/11/2022 at 3:22 PM, shawthorne44 said:

I normally love holidays, particularly Christmas.   But I am depressed now.   Daughter, aged 12, is literally getting coal wrapped in a pretty box.   I never thought that would happen.   

Apparently, she has been lying consistently to us for a long time and we didn't catch on because we thought she was trustworthy.   Monday, she lied about starting the dishwasher.   If she'd told me the truth, I merely would have been grumpy.   She was banned from using the dishwasher,   She had been loading the dishwasher without even looking at what she was putting in.   For example, I found a RECEIPT in the dishwasher.    A grocery store one about 10" long.   This was on top of her other favorite trick of leaving dishes sitting around for days until the food is dry and hardened.   Then the wash wouldn't clean it, and the dry cycle would really bake it on.   Then she'd put the dishes away dirty without even looking at them.    The same day I found the receipt, I also found a sauce pan put away but in the wrong place with still wet sauce in it.  So, she loaded the dishwasher (with large hunks of food on the dishes) and started it.  She lied and told me she hadn't.   That was Monday.    Monday night I took away her mp3 player.   Phone has been gone for awhile and she won't get that back until she starts to drive.  Tuesday night, she is in bed and DH asks her if she is listening to something.   She lies and says No, that she just has the headphones on to shut out the world.   We can understand that.  Except when her headphones get shut off, one of her hats hanging on her door starts to play an audiobook.   This is less than 24 hours after being caught lying.  

Then you add in that is important to me that we have Christmas at home with daughter.  Christmases before I was 8.5 we lived near family.   I don't remember a single one.  They were like every other holiday, miserable, driving around to multiple houses and having to be quiet while the old people talked.  I don't have any cousins.  So, starting when DD was 2, I insisted we stay home.   Everyone is invited and no hard feelings for anyone that can't come.  I am an only child, so sometimes it has just been my parents.   Sometimes I thought 8 would come and 20 would.   All good.  
Since the lockdown, my mother hasn't wanted to leave the house.  She's gone out twice a year.    Walking up or down even a tiny step is hard for her.   We built a concrete ramp in our new garage.  Not just for her, but because we never want to leave here.   Now she says that she doesn't think she can do the drive.     So, I am also sad that mom's health has reached that point.  

 

 

This is hard and I feel for what you are going through.  Lying is a huge trigger for me and something that I just won't tolerate.   You have gotten lots of advice and so I won't add to that,  but do want you to know that I understand and I sympathize with you.    You are doing the best you can and that is all that you can do.