“Co Miserating” is not real intimacy….is this dynamic alive in your family?

[Indigo Blue]

 

A short video :

A poll of sorts….

Do you see this type of dynamic in your family? I’m wondering if I ask here if more will say this dynamic is foreign to them or will more say this behavior has been normalized in their family?
 

I’m hoping people who normally don’t post in toxic family threads will chime in so it won’t just be a thread of us “regulars” saying, yep, this is us. 
 

I know no family is perfect. But I know there has to be lots out there who say they don’t see this to an extreme degree. 
 

I will say that most of my visitation with one of my parents is constant negativity against whomever is on the hot seat at that moment. I’m sure I can go in that hot seat as soon as I leave. 
 

What is it like to NOT have this? What is your vote? Yes, I relate. Or no, we don’t do that. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Indigo Blue

[Melissa Louise]

Oh, yeah.

A cheap form of intimacy.

I like that way of putting it.

Real intimacy is rare, imo.

 

[Matryoshka]

16 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

 

A short video :

A poll of sorts….

Do you see this type of dynamic in your family? I’m wondering if I ask here if more will say this dynamic is foreign to them or will more say this behavior has been normalized in their family?

I’m hoping people who normally don’t post in toxic family threads will chime in so it won’t just be a thread of us “regulars” saying, yep, this is us. 

I know no family is perfect. But I know there has to be lots out there who say they don’t see this to an extreme degree. 

I will say that most of my visitation with one of my parents is constant negativity against whomever is on the hot seat at that moment. I’m sure I can go in that hot seat as soon as I leave. 

What is it like to NOT have this? What is your vote? Yes, I relate. Or no, we don’t do that. 

Well, two things.  This guy is not using (1) the correct definition of 'commiserate', nor (2) the correct pronunciation.  He seems to think the word means to be miserable (bitchy/complainy) about someone else with (co) another person who dogpiles on.  Hence his CO-miserate pronunciation.  The correct definition is to just sympathize with someone about something that's gone wrong in their lives.  Like, "I'm so sorry that happened to you."  The correct pronunciation has a schwa in the first syllable.

To answer your question, no, my family does not have bitch sessions about other people in the family as a way of "bonding".  Ew.   That, does, indeed, seem very toxic.

But that's not what commiserating is.  He made that meaning up.

com·mis·er·ate

 kə-ˈmi-zə-ˌrāt 

express or feel sympathy or pity; sympathize.

1. "she went over to commiserate with Rose on her unfortunate circumstances"

    

    

Edited December 5, 2022 by Matryoshka

[Indigo Blue]

I also want to quickly say that I used to feel, in years past, that it was just me and said parent just talking amongst ourselves and confiding in one another. My younger self didn’t grasp the dysfunctional aspect of it all. I feel so much like, since educating myself and becoming older and wiser, this is not at all what I thought it was. Coming out of the fog is fraught with so many different revelations and emotions. 

[Katy]

We don’t do this. It’s relaxed and supportive, no matter if we’re having DH’s family or mine. 

5 years ago I volunteered to host. It was a disaster. We had two medically fragile babies staying with us, one with a feeding tube and a new medication that caused explosive diarrhea.

DH got it in his head that he needed to get the older kids out of my way so he left, without asking me, without his cell phone or doing any of the things I asked him to. The ovens both broke, leaving my carefully planned courses raw.  

I was on my third round of bedding changes, running out of crib sheets and elbow deep in poop and my own tears when DH finally showed up 15 minutes before his family was supposed to be there. We got a combination of steak house takeout and pre-prepared “Thanksgiving” dishes from the closest supermarket, and a bunch of bags of chips and dip. And sat around watching football and cracking jokes and rocking babies and claiming it was their favorite Thanksgiving ever. It wasn’t but I sure felt more loved. 

[Indigo Blue]

4 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Well, two things.  This guy is not using (1) the correct definition of 'commiserate', nor (2) the correct pronunciation.  He seems to think the word means to be miserable about someone else with (co) that person.  Hence his CO-miserate pronunciation.  The correct definition is to just sympathize with someone about something that's gone wrong in their lives.   The correct pronunciation has a schwa in the first syllable.

To answer your question, no, my family does not have bitch sessions about other people in the family as a way of "bonding".  Ew.   That, does, indeed, seem very toxic.

But that's not what commiserating is.  He made that meaning up.

com·mis·er·ate

 kə-ˈmi-zə-ˌrāt 

express or feel sympathy or pity; sympathize.

1. "she went over to commiserate with Rose on her unfortunate circumstances"

    

    

I just took it at face value that he knows how the word is used and just came up with that himself to make a point. If that makes any sense. He’s saying co mmiserate as in sitting around being miserable people together….

Edited December 5, 2022 by Indigo Blue

[Matryoshka]

5 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

I just took it at face value that he knows how the word is used and just came up with that himself to make a point. If that makes any sense.

He might.  But words do have meaning, and a disclaimer that he's making up a new meaning using almost the opposite of the traditional meaning would be helpful if he's just blasting that out into the universe (and you're probably right and that's why he's aggressively pronuncing the CO).  But commiserating is a kind, positive and healthy thing to do.  What he's talking about is... not any of those things.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Matryoshka

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Indigo Blue said:

I just took it at face value that he knows how the word is used and just came up with that himself to make a point. 

That's how I heard it

I don't often come into these threads, because boy, they make me sad, and honestly, they sort of reinforce that other people get normal, and I get - idk - whatever the ick dynamic is - and that maybe its me. I'm nodding in recognition at the ick co-misseration, but also thinking, well, there has to be a reason lots of people are shaking their heads and saying nope, this doesn't happen.

 

 

[regentrude]

I don't see what this has to do with real or cheap intimacy.

True commiseration involves sharing somebody's burden, empathy for someone who had something happen, and yes, of course it is part of normal family dynamics. So is sharing thought about other people.

I talk to my mother every day. Of course she tells me about her friends, what is going on in their lives, what is joyful, what aggravates her - BECAUSE we are close, I am some days the only person she speaks to, this is something on her mind that she wants to share with somebody.

This has nothing cheap. When mom tells me about the insensitive friend who only talks about her own affairs and completely ignores that mom is going through a hard time, is she supposed to bottle that up?

I think this video is presenting a false dichotomy.

Eta: bitch sessions as bonding? Nope. Sharing your joys and your annoyances with a close loved one? Absolutely. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by regentrude

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Matryoshka said:

He might.  But words do have meaning, and a disclaimer that he's making up a new meaning using almost the opposite of the traditional meaning would be helpful if he's just blasting that out into the universe.  Commiserating is a kind, positive and healthy thing to do.  What he's talking about is... not any of those things.

I actually don't know if I agree about commiserating.

Other than if you've won a game, and its just good sportsmanship to say 'commiserations' to those who lost.

It sometimes feels more  like a 'there, there' designed to halt real intimacy.

As always, others may feel differently, and may be right, and I may be wrong.

 

[Clarita]

Maybe it's a cheap form of intimacy, but I also think you don't need deep intimacy all the time either.

If commiserating is the only thing you ever do it's not a deep friendship or relationship. Even in my healthy relationships we commiserate sometimes, but there are also other times of deep intimacy.  Deep intimacy being times where we do speak truth to each other even when it's painful, where we are by each other sides when we aren't at our best either physically or emotionally), etc. That sort of interaction isn't always needed and honestly if deep intimacy is the only interaction I have with my closest friends it would be exhausting. 

A real bond with someone you also do silly, fun and frivolous things together. You make mistakes together. You talk about things that bug you be it people, situations or things. With healthy relationships though when you do gossip or just talk smack about things and you go over the line your healthy people bring you back. They call you out, in private and gently. We remind each other to be nice or whatever. It is part of real intimacy that you don't have to be perfect and a saint around that person.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Clarita
typo I typed too quickly

[Matryoshka]

11 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I actually don't know if I agree about commiserating.

Other than if you've won a game, and its just good sportsmanship to say 'commiserations' to those who lost.

It sometimes feels more  like a 'there, there' designed to halt real intimacy.

As always, others may feel differently, and may be right, and I may be wrong.

That's not what commiseration is (the proper definition, not what he's going on about), and I've never heard it used as a salutation that means the opposite of 'congratulations'.   It's an action - saying you sympathize with /understand the feelings of someone who has had some kind of loss or setback in their lives, so they don't feel alone.  Their pet died, their boss is mean, they're having a hard time, and you say, hey, I've been there too, you're not alone, your feelings are valid, I'm here for you.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Matryoshka

[Indigo Blue]

Okay, I see that I messed up explaining what I was trying to ask in my OP. I didn’t mean for it to be about the definition of the word. Oh, well. 

[Guest]

I agree with matryoshka on the way he is using the word. Commiseration is not another word for back-stabby gossip. 
 

There is not much of that in any of my family dynamics, although there are a few back-stabbing gossipers in the extended family. I used to witness it much more when I spent more time with two family members in particular. 
 

I do not think it is true intimacy. Out there on the web, there is a little saying that is something like, “Emotionally developed people talk about ideas; emotionally stagnated people talk about other people.” I think that is generally accurate. 

[Melissa Louise]

9 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

That's not what commiseration is (the proper definition, not what he's going on about), and I've never heard it used as a salutation that means the opposite of 'congratulations'.   It's an action - saying you sympathize with /understand the feelings of someone who has had some kind of loss or setback in their lives, so they don't feel alone.  Their pet died, their boss is mean, they're having a hard time, and you say, hey, I've been there too, you're not alone, your feelings are valid, I'm here for you.

It's the only way I've ever heard it.

Congratulations/commiserations.

[Indigo Blue]

I agree a bitch fest isn’t the same thing as talking to a friend about things that are on your mind. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Indigo Blue

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, Quill said:

Out there on the web, there is a little saying that is something like, “Emotionally developed people talk about ideas; emotionally stagnated people talk about other people.” I think that is generally accurate. 

I disagree. People who are interested in, and talking about, other people aren't emotionally stagnated.
The lives of other people are endlessly fascinating. Talking about people does not mean slander and gossip. 
As an extrovert, I love to be among people, to hear from people, to talk to people, and of course to talk about people. 
When you (general you) are together with your friends, do you really mainly talk about ideas? Isn't a lot of the conversation inquiring about the other humans in your life? 

[Matryoshka]

22 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

It's the only way I've ever heard it.

Congratulations/commiserations.

Must be Australian usage?  Never ever heard it used that way.  Only like the example sentences in the dictionary. 

Example Sentences

"Did you enjoy your breakfast?" "The eggs were runny." "I know." The woman commiserated. "I was thinking, I should just have barged into the kitchen and done them myself." Alice Munro, Runaway, (2004) 2005
The other potters seemed to slump as one into dejection, all but abandoning their work in favor of long, lugubrious visits to the wine shop, where they commiserated with one another. Linda Sue Park, A Single Shard, (2001) 2003
"I been readin' about it," she said, referring to the recent breakup of my marriage.  … "It's too bad," she commiserated. Arthur Miller, Timebends, 1987
 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Matryoshka

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Matryoshka said:

Must be Australian usage?  Never ever heard it that way.  Only like the example sentences in the dictionary. 

No, I have heard the usage here in the US as well. Basically as a synonym to condolences. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by regentrude

[Matryoshka]

19 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

I agree a bitch fest isn’t the same thing as talking to a friend about things that are on your mind. 

Yeah, he's talking about a bitch fest or trash-talking.  Which isn't nice at all.   And is not the norm in all families, thank heaven.  I don't do that with my friends, either.

I agree the word definition thing is a distraction - sorry! 🤓 But it's exacty because it makes it hard to talk about the subject with a word that means something else entirely that I mentioned it...   Maybe he was trying to come up with a more 'polite' word for 'bitch-fest'....

[Matryoshka]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

No, I have heard the usage here in the US as well. Basically as a synonym to condolences. 

Huh.  Living here in my little lingustic bubble where merry and marry are pronounced differently... 😂

[Jean in Newcastle]

My mother used to complain or gossip about people behind their back. So people wouldn’t share as much of their real life experiences with her. (Because if she’s saying things about Aunt Trudy, what is she saying about me?). But we all have choices about whether we join in or not. The rest of our family chose not to join in. 
 

(The whole pop psychology thing irritates me a bit including the fake pronunciation. ). 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Jean in Newcastle
Typo

[Guest]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

I disagree. People who are interested in, and talking about, other people aren't emotionally stagnated.
The lives of other people are endlessly fascinating. Talking about people does not mean slander and gossip. 
As an extrovert, I love to be among people, to hear from people, to talk to people, and of course to talk about people. 
When you (general you) are together with your friends, do you really mainly talk about ideas? Isn't a lot of the conversation inquiring about the other humans in your life? 

Do you really experience a lot of talking about other people that is positive in nature? I haven’t. How does that go exactly? Because I have heard this:

”Aunt Mary always brings those meatballs and they are cold on the inside. She freezes them ahead and then pops them in the crock pot with sauce and thinks it’s fine, but it never is. They are always cold in the middle.” <<<That kind of thing. 
 

But typically if someone says something positive about an absent person, it doesn’t continue. It’s more like this:

”Aunt Mary always brings those delicious meatballs. Every family should be so lucky to have a genuine Italian auntie in the family to feed us so well!” <<<People agree. Then, a different subject has to be brought up because there’s nothing else to say about Aunt Mary the good cook. It would only go on if she’s not a good cook. 
 

*I* personally do talk about ideas more than I talk about other people. But I don’t know; probably most of my closest friends, if not all, are on the introverted side. So, for example, hiking with my friend, we talk the whole way. Some things we’ve talked about: weddings and what is popular for weddings now vs in the past; lots of discussion about books we’ve read; lots of discussion about food and nutrition; discussion about political views; discussion about how much “surveillance” we parents should engage in for teens; work. 
 

[Clarita]

17 minutes ago, Quill said:

Do you really experience a lot of talking about other people that is positive in nature? I haven’t. How does that go exactly?

Yes, like

"Aunt Mary always brings those delicious meatballs. I just love her meatballs!" "You know she just gets them pre-made from Trader Joe's, right?" "What?! I didn't know that I must ask her which ones she gets." Aunt Mary walks into the room. "Aunt Mary, these meatballs are great. Aunt Josie said you got them from Trader Joe's?" Aunt Mary responds "Why yes they are the teriyaki meatballs I just don't use the sauce." Then maybe the conversation goes to how wonderful Trader Joe's is or how much we continue to love the meatballs or Uncle Bob's chili or we may indeed go on about Aunt Mary's delicious food like how her apple pie is also delicious and that she makes from scratch.

Most likely the Aunt Mary always brings the cold meatball conversation would be short. "Aunt Mary's meatballs are still cold on the inside." "Oh I wonder if we can microwave them a bit to warm them up." Then conversation stops because the people involved in that conversation are busy re-heating Aunt Mary's meatballs or asking her if it's OK to do so or if we should just turn up the crockpot.

[regentrude]

40 minutes ago, Quill said:

Do you really experience a lot of talking about other people that is positive in nature? I haven’t. How does that go exactly?

Here's what a conversation with one of my best friends looks like:

"How did your visit go with J? Is she still living in that house with all the other people?"
"It was really nice. No, there was some drama and she moved in with another woman. She works the night shift and paints during the day. She seems really grounded and happy now and is three years sober". "Yes, I remember. What do her new paintings look like?" I describe the paintings. "Will she ever return to the commune?" "No, that wasn't a healthy place. She gave up her membership. It was good to see her. Have you heard from R?"
"she emailed a few weeks ago; they are still in xyz and love it there." "I don't ever hear from them. It makes me sad that they don't keep in touch. How are your daughter and the boys?" Friend talks about her daughter and the grandkids; her visit, the hurricane damage. Asks about my mother, how she is holding up, what her day-to-day looks like. I talk about mom, talk about how she handles being widowed; widowed friend chimes in with her own experience. Asks about my sister.
She tells me what her neighbors have achieved on the homestead, talks about friends' farm and how they went to a mushroom talk by one of my friends and how they are thriving in their new environment and how he struggles with some trauma and that she is happy to have befriended the wife. We talk about the next poetry reading at the local bookstore and the folks who run the arts community.

And so on. And yes, we also talk about justice, politics, basic income, addiction and mental illness, poetry, gardening, the Tao, cooking.... But always also people. She is one of these persons who are genuinely interested in humans and their stories and who pays attention and remembers people's siblings' names and such. 
 

Quote

So, for example, hiking with my friend, we talk the whole way

Hiking is the one time where I don't talk much. Sometimes we do, but often we hike for hours in silence and focus on the nature (and when it gets strenuous, there isn't any capacity for talk anyway, lol - you just breathe)

Edited December 6, 2022 by regentrude

[Jean in Newcastle]

40 minutes ago, Quill said:

Do you really experience a lot of talking about other people that is positive in nature? I haven’t. How does that go exactly? Because I have heard this:

”Aunt Mary always brings those meatballs and they are cold on the inside. She freezes them ahead and then pops them in the crock pot with sauce and thinks it’s fine, but it never is. They are always cold in the middle.” <<<That kind of thing. 
 

But typically if someone says something positive about an absent person, it doesn’t continue. It’s more like this:

”Aunt Mary always brings those delicious meatballs. Every family should be so lucky to have a genuine Italian auntie in the family to feed us so well!” <<<People agree. Then, a different subject has to be brought up because there’s nothing else to say about Aunt Mary the good cook. It would only go on if she’s not a good cook. 
 

*I* personally do talk about ideas more than I talk about other people. But I don’t know; probably most of my closest friends, if not all, are on the introverted side. So, for example, hiking with my friend, we talk the whole way. Some things we’ve talked about: weddings and what is popular for weddings now vs in the past; lots of discussion about books we’ve read; lots of discussion about food and nutrition; discussion about political views; discussion about how much “surveillance” we parents should engage in for teens; work. 
 

I don’t see bringing up Aunt Mary’s cold meatballs as being a toxic thing. I presume it’s a fact that they are cold. I also presume that she’s not doing it on purpose. So someone might mention that they are cold but then we figure out how to warm them up. Or someone gently tells Aunt Mary so that it doesn’t keep happening. 
 

What I don’t like is telling people other people’s secrets. If someone tells me sensitive information I might ask if I can share it with others but most of the time I just don’t share it. I will share non sensitive/public information with mutual friends. 
 

Another thing I don’t like is complaining about someone to another person. If someone were to bring up their beef with someone else I would suggest that they talk it over directly with the person with whom they have a beef. 
 

The only exception is my husband. I do process some of my own reactions/feelings with him. But my friends and family know that we discuss things and if someone asked me to not tell him, then I wouldn’t. (He never ever discusses what we say with others). 

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Another thing I don’t like is complaining about someone to another person. If someone were to bring up their beef with someone else I would suggest that they talk it over directly with the person with whom they have a beef. 

Sometimes that is not possible. And venting to another person about the insufferable co-worker or boss prevents one from having an epic blowup where it could have dire consequences. Venting can be very beneficial for mental well-being, as opposed to eating up the frustration.

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

I disagree. People who are interested in, and talking about, other people aren't emotionally stagnated.
The lives of other people are endlessly fascinating. Talking about people does not mean slander and gossip. 
As an extrovert, I love to be among people, to hear from people, to talk to people, and of course to talk about people. 
When you (general you) are together with your friends, do you really mainly talk about ideas? Isn't a lot of the conversation inquiring about the other humans in your life? 

I'm not an extrovert, but I am really interested in people and their foibles and I totally agree with you. 

I talk about people a lot. Unless it's something that's accompanied by toxic feelings (smugness, frustrated anger, etc), I think it can be fruitful whether it's "positive" or "negative." The question for me is always whether it's authentic and genuine and open or whether there are subterranean things going on... in the latter case, things can definitely be toxic. 

But, say, talking about how you're sad about what's going on in someone's life and the reasons for it and what we think might happen and how we might help... I don't know how to class that. Is that positive or negative? It's not chirpy. But it's not mean or angry or toxic. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Sometimes that is not possible. And venting to another person about the insufferable co-worker or boss prevents one from having an epic blowup where it could have dire consequences. Venting can be very beneficial for mental well-being, as opposed to eating up the frustration.

I used the pronoun “I “ throughout my post. What might be impossible or mentally frustrating to you is not impossible for me and doesn’t place me in a position of having an epic blowup. 

[Not_a_Number]

10 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I used the pronoun “I “ throughout my post. What might be impossible or mentally frustrating to you is not impossible for me and doesn’t place me in a position of having an epic blowup. 

A "someone" did feature in your post. The part that regentrude replied to. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

A "someone" did feature in your post. The part that regentrude replied to. 

?  “”Someone “ was just referring to one of my friends. It was shorter to type. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm not an extrovert, but I am really interested in people and their foibles and I totally agree with you. 

I talk about people a lot. Unless it's something that's accompanied by toxic feelings (smugness, frustrated anger, etc), I think it can be fruitful whether it's "positive" or "negative." The question for me is always whether it's authentic and genuine and open or whether there are subterranean things going on... in the latter case, things can definitely be toxic. 

But, say, talking about how you're sad about what's going on in someone's life and the reasons for it and what we think might happen and how we might help... I don't know how to class that. Is that positive or negative? It's not chirpy. But it's not mean or angry or toxic. 

Also not an extrovert and super interested in people, including talking about people and how they work.

I like talking about ideas also.

I have one person in my life who has a conversational ratio of 99% 'ideas' - I sometimes feel like I'm at a TED talk.

I like a warm, analytic, happy, sad, deep, shallow, silly, serious mix of both.

 

 

[Corraleno]

6 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

But commiserating is a kind, positive and healthy thing to do.  What he's talking about is... not any of those things.

I think that was exactly the point he was making: that what some people may think is a sympathetic/empathetic act of bonding is really just shared bitching and co-miserableness.

 

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

I think that was exactly the point he was making: that what some people may think is a sympathetic/empathetic act of bonding is really just shared bitching and co-miserableness.

Bitching/gossiping/trash-talking has nothing to do with being sympathetic when someone has had something bad happen to them. Unless maybe it's an actually abusive situation and you're talking about the abuser?  But not Aunt Mary and her frumpy clothes or cold meatballs... nothing bad has happened, nothing to commiserate about.

When I think commiseration, it's about a situation (broke your arm, crashed your car, someone died, can't find a job, etc), not a person. 

[Laura Corin]

My family is not toxic but we have some quirky characters.  Talking like that after someone leaves may not be ideal, but it breaks the tension and allows people to laugh and move on. Not everything has to be deep and meaningful. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

Bitching/gossiping/trash-talking has nothing to do with being sympathetic when someone has had something bad happen to them. Unless maybe it's an actually abusive situation and you're talking about the abuser?  But not Aunt Mary and her frumpy clothes or cold meatballs... nothing bad has happened, nothing to commiserate about.

When I think commiseration, it's about a situation (broke your arm, crashed your car, someone died, can't find a job, etc), not a person. 

I think you're getting hung up on the dictionary definition and missing his point. He's talking about a situation like Aunt Mary leaves Thanksgiving dinner and then Susie starts in with "Boy, Aunt Mary sure has gained a lot of weight, but I guess it's not surprising — did you see how much cake she ate??" Cousin Bessie: "Yeah, but the poor thing must be stress eating since her husband walked out on her. You know I tried to warn her about Bob, but would she listen?" Susie and Bessie nod and make agreeing noises. Peggy: "I feel bad for her because that Bob was cheating on her for years, but you know she really did let herself go, I don't know what else she expected..." Susie: "So true. I did try to get her to wear nicer clothes and maybe use a little makeup, but you know how stubborn she is..." Bessie: "Oh yes, she's always been the stubborn one, she was never one to take advice from anyone." Susie: "And look where that got her, maybe she wouldn't be such a mess if she'd only listened to us." Everyone nods "sympathetically" about poor Aunt Mary...

They are establishing themselves as a tribe, bound together by shared feelings of sympathy for poor Aunt Mary (while making it clear that they are all better/smarter than her). But that isn't real intimacy or bonding because they haven't shared any sort of vulnerability about themselves. 

If anyone thinks that's unrealistic, and families don't really talk about each other that way, I can assure you they do. I've seen relatives talk that way about other people, but I'm not often included in those discussions since, as the black sheep/scapegoat of the family, I'm more often the person they're talking about. The last time I attended a large family gathering (about 12 years ago), my step-brother pulled my husband aside and said "I just want you to know that I think you and [Corraleno] are good people, I don't care what the rest of the family says." LOL, thanks? My very NPD mother has assured me multiple times that even if other family members are nice to my face, they talk behind my back and always agree with her.  Whether that's true or a total fabrication doesn't make much difference to me, because I'm LC with all of them. But I do think their discussions fill the role that the guy in the video describes — they think they are both expressing sympathy for me (who won't get to go to heaven with all the "good" people like them) and commiserating with each other (e.g. that my mother ended up with such a terrible disrespectful daughter, that my sister doesn't have a close sister that's just like her, her kids don't have close cousins, etc.); it helps them bond by being able to define themselves as the opposite of me.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Corraleno

[Matryoshka]

33 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I think you're getting hung up on the dictionary definition and missing his point. He's talking about a situation like Aunt Mary leaves Thanksgiving dinner and then Susie starts in with "Boy, Aunt Mary sure has gained a lot of weight, but I guess it's not surprising — did you see how much cake she ate??" Cousin Bessie: "Yeah, but the poor thing must be stress eating since her husband walked out on her. You know I tried to warn her about Bob, but would she listen?" Susie and Bessie nod and make agreeing noises. Peggy: "I feel bad for her because that Bob was cheating on her for years, but you know she really did let herself go, I don't know what else she expected..." Susie: "So true. I did try to get her to wear nicer clothes and maybe use a little makeup, but you know how stubborn she is..." Bessie: "Oh yes, she's always been the stubborn one, she was never one to take advice from anyone." Susie: "And look where that got her, maybe she wouldn't be such a mess if she'd only listened to us." Everyone nods "sympathetically" about poor Aunt Mary...

They are establishing themselves as a tribe, bound together by shared feelings of sympathy for poor Aunt Mary (while making it clear that they are all better/smarter than her). But that isn't real intimacy or bonding because they haven't shared any sort of vulnerability about themselves. 

If anyone thinks that's unrealistic, and families don't really talk about each other that way, I can assure you they do. I've seen relatives talk that way about other people, but I'm not often included in those discussions since, as the black sheep/scapegoat of the family, I'm more often the person they're talking about. The last time I attended a large family gathering (about 12 years ago), my step-brother pulled my husband aside and said "I just want you to know that I think you and [Corraleno] are good people, I don't care what the rest of the family says." LOL, thanks? My very NPD mother has assured me multiple times that even if other family members are nice to my face, they talk behind my back and always agree with her.  Whether that's true or a total fabrication doesn't make much difference to me, because I'm LC with all of them. But I do think their discussions fill the role that the guy in the video describes — they think they are both expressing sympathy for me (who won't get to go to heaven with all the "good" people like them) and commiserating with each other (e.g. that my mother ended up with such a terrible disrespectful daughter, that my sister doesn't have a close sister that's just like her, her kids don't have close cousins, etc.); it helps them bond by being able to define themselves as the opposite of me.

I'm not disagreeing at all about what he means, but that's just not what I would even remotely think of as either sympathy or commiseration.  But yeah, don't at all have that dynamic in my family or friendships,  so am not the target audience, and it would never occur to me to think of that as 'commiseration' or bonding.   I'll agree with him and you what both you and he describe is toxic af, and I see it that way without needing it to be called out.

The op did ask if there really were families that didn't have this dynamic... well, yes, there are. Sure, we have other dysfunction,  but this isn't a thing at all.  See, if I were to commiserate about dysfunctional families in general I could tell you that there sure are other wacky dynamics in my family without trashing or pig-piling on anyone.  

[Ausmumof3]

9 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Must be Australian usage?  Never ever heard it used that way.  Only like the example sentences in the dictionary. 

Example Sentences

"Did you enjoy your breakfast?" "The eggs were runny." "I know." The woman commiserated. "I was thinking, I should just have barged into the kitchen and done them myself." Alice Munro, Runaway, (2004) 2005
The other potters seemed to slump as one into dejection, all but abandoning their work in favor of long, lugubrious visits to the wine shop, where they commiserated with one another. Linda Sue Park, A Single Shard, (2001) 2003
"I been readin' about it," she said, referring to the recent breakup of my marriage.  … "It's too bad," she commiserated. Arthur Miller, Timebends, 1987
 

I’m familiar with it being used in that sense.

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

My family is not toxic but we have some quirky characters.  Talking like that after someone leaves may not be ideal, but it breaks the tension and allows people to laugh and move on. Not everything has to be deep and meaningful. 

I think we’re like this. It doesn’t get really deep or nasty but the occasional kind of lighthearted but kind of honest comment sometimes takes the edge off things.

[Indigo Blue]

4 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I think you're getting hung up on the dictionary definition and missing his point. He's talking about a situation like Aunt Mary leaves Thanksgiving dinner and then Susie starts in with "Boy, Aunt Mary sure has gained a lot of weight, but I guess it's not surprising — did you see how much cake she ate??" Cousin Bessie: "Yeah, but the poor thing must be stress eating since her husband walked out on her. You know I tried to warn her about Bob, but would she listen?" Susie and Bessie nod and make agreeing noises. Peggy: "I feel bad for her because that Bob was cheating on her for years, but you know she really did let herself go, I don't know what else she expected..." Susie: "So true. I did try to get her to wear nicer clothes and maybe use a little makeup, but you know how stubborn she is..." Bessie: "Oh yes, she's always been the stubborn one, she was never one to take advice from anyone." Susie: "And look where that got her, maybe she wouldn't be such a mess if she'd only listened to us." Everyone nods "sympathetically" about poor Aunt Mary...

Yes! Thanks. This sort of conversation. You did a good job of showing what that looks like. 
 

I’m thinking people in this thread aren’t exactly getting the point because they don’t experience this on that kind of level. And that’s a good thing. This means there are actually people whose families genuinely don’t do this, and this is what I was curious about. I have been around nice people for dinners, get togethers, etc., my whole life, but there’s always a little piece of me that wonders wether they are saying things of this nature when others aren’t around.
 

Mine goes something like this:

”Oh, that’s so and so calling. I don’t want to talk to her right now. She’ll just go on and on about her problems and I won’t be able to get her off the phone. Did I tell you what she said to me last week? You won’t believe this…..”

”No, I haven’t heard from so and so. We haven’t spoke since she hung up on me. Her brother was here for awhile last week. He said he doesn’t like her. He says she is mean. I think she is (insert any mental disorder). They are taking an expensive trip to so and so next week. I don’t know where they are getting this money.”

”Well, so and so has really gone off the deep end. Last week he blah, blah, and blah. I tried to tell him about xyz. I ended up screaming at him and hanging up on him. He won’t listen to me and he never will. He’s just like his father. He’s mentally ill. That whole side of the family is.”

“So and so seems to leave their hand prints everywhere. Everything they touch has sticky hand prints on it.”

“Guess who I saw a few days ago? I saw so and so. They have really gained a lot of weight. I don’t want to be too skinny, though. At my age, it’s better to have some weight on you than to be too thin. Do you eat breakfast? You need to eat more. You’re too skinny. At your age, you need to keep a few extra pounds on you.”

”How are the boys? How are their jobs going?” I reply about how their jobs are going. Eventually…”Which one makes the most money?”

This all happens in the same visit. So, I was really wondering if this exists in most families. 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Indigo Blue
Fixed typo and deleted part of quoted text in case it shouldn’t have been quoted

[HomeAgain]

This is how dh's family builds bonds, and to a degree, some of the older generation of mine.  It's something our family has consciously tried to stay away from.  There's always that slight unease of what these family members are bonding about behind *your* back, so there's no real connection that can be made if you want to avoid it.  Polite, but distant.  That's about all I can give with people that use this technique.

[regentrude]

7 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I used the pronoun “I “ throughout my post. What might be impossible or mentally frustrating to you is not impossible for me and doesn’t place me in a position of having an epic blowup. 

And I didn't use the pronoun "you". I read "someone" as a generic someone. For whom taking up the beef with the other person may not be possible, and who may not be able to avoid the interactions.

I am very happy that you don't ever find it impossible to directly address your issues with the other person. It would be a heavenly work environment with understanding, well-adjusted leadership where any grievances can be resolved by a peaceful conversation. For some people, that isn't the reality.

(But I guess it's just that *I* find it "mentally frustrating" and lack the fortitude not to have the occasional bitch session with my equally frustrated colleagues who, too, feel like screaming. )

Edited December 6, 2022 by regentrude

[Scarlett]

9 hours ago, Clarita said:

Yes, like

"Aunt Mary always brings those delicious meatballs. I just love her meatballs!" "You know she just gets them pre-made from Trader Joe's, right?" "What?! I didn't know that I must ask her which ones she gets." Aunt Mary walks into the room. "Aunt Mary, these meatballs are great. Aunt Josie said you got them from Trader Joe's?" Aunt Mary responds "Why yes they are the teriyaki meatballs I just don't use the sauce." Then maybe the conversation goes to how wonderful Trader Joe's is or how much we continue to love the meatballs or Uncle Bob's chili or we may indeed go on about Aunt Mary's delicious food like how her apple pie is also delicious and that she makes from scratch.

Most likely the Aunt Mary always brings the cold meatball conversation would be short. "Aunt Mary's meatballs are still cold on the inside." "Oh I wonder if we can microwave them a bit to warm them up." Then conversation stops because the people involved in that conversation are busy re-heating Aunt Mary's meatballs or asking her if it's OK to do so or if we should just turn up the crockpot.

Yes this is more the experience of my family and friends.  My dh’s family is quite large and there are a couple of siblings that are never with us—for reasons.  And sometimes as a group we talk about those reasons which are sometimes shocking.  But it is never the main topic of a gathering nor does it go on and on.  

Setting aside the incorrect use of the word commiserate, I agree with his point that true intimacy is not bashing other people. @Indigo Bluecan you redirect the conversation?  I had a friend who used to do this to me when I was young and tried to gossip negatively.  She would either just stare at me with no words.  Or she would say, ‘I don’t know what to say about that’.  It was very effective.  

[Scarlett]

Also I don’t think talking about people is always a negative thing. It is whether it turns ugly and is usually ugly that is the problem. Like what @Indigo Bluedescribes with her mother.  

[Granny_Weatherwax]

This is how I was raised. I thought it was normal. Imagine my surprise when people began to exclude me from activities and friend groups. My FOO still does this, especially my mom. I thought she did/does it as a way to bolster her self-esteem or to bring someone down to her level of misery. I think it's why I can never believe anything I have done is good enough. I know she'll find something to nitpick or complain about. I also think it's why I try to beat her and others to the punch. If I can get the problems/issues/errors out there before they do, I won't feel so bad but it certainly doesn't make for a pleasant event or life for anyone. My biggest desire is to be able to recognize it early and break the cycle. It is so difficult because mom also pits people against each other and, if you are the one she's upset with, you are ostracized.

As a pp wrote, I would love to know what it is like to have grown up in a more normative/psychologically healthy environment.

[skimomma]

I have experienced both ends of this....whatever we want to call it.  One side of my family does not do this at all and the other does this so much it is pretty much the only thing people talk about.  The side that does tends to categorize the discussions as "concern" for the subject(s).  I don't have much to say on any of it since this is really the first time I have thought about it so specifically, except to say that I have come to realize that this became much more frequent as group/family relationships weakened over time.....as in having less in common to talk about in general.  While the practice itself is likely harmful for all sorts of reasons, I see on the side of my family that does not do this that we simply talk less overall due to lack of things to talk about.  On the side that does do this, there is one toxic person that is usually at the middle of these discussions but most of the participants are not what I would call toxic.....just grasping for anything to fill the conversation.  Over time, so many topics became off limits (religion, politics, careers, child-rearing styles, health, you name it.....) that other than the weather (also almost off limits because apparently that is now political), it is getting hard to fill the time.

[SKL]

Yes, my family does this at times.  I do think it is very common and doesn't mean the family dynamic isn't healthy.

We really don't do the guy's other option, the "you hurt me and let's talk about it" stuff.

There is a lot between those two extremes.  Mostly each person asking / talking about the family members' kids, jobs, health, friends, house projects, hobbies, travel plans, career plans, ... and sharing jokes and observations about the big world outside of our family.

[Indigo Blue]

51 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Indigo Bluecan you redirect the conversation

Yes. Sometimes I just listen while keeping in mind some, most, or all of it could be an exaggeration, half truth, or a whole non truth. 

[Indigo Blue]

13 minutes ago, SKL said:

you hurt me and let's talk about it" stuff.

I agree this is far less common. I think, anyway. 
 

I do try to do this with my immediate family if it seems necessary. I want it to be a two-way communication where all feelings are heard. That’s my intent, at least. 

[Indigo Blue]

About the pop psychology being irritating to some….that’s perfectly fine if you think that. But he and other YouTube psychologists, along with reading lots of books,  have done so much for me as far as trying to heal and seeing things clearly. These people absolutely nail it when describing toxicity. A lot of them come from toxic homes, themselves. I don’t know what I would have done without these as resources. I’m glad I found them.