Guit-inducing comments regarding nursing home care (my mom again)

[Indigo Blue]

My mom often makes negative comments about nursing homes. Actually, she has for as long as I can remember. She’ll say things like, “All nursing homes are bad. Even the “good” ones.” Or….“There is so much abuse. Women get abused all the time. There’s no way to be there enough to prevent it.” And… “My mom was never put in a nursing home.” (Her sister took care of my grandmother). Now, my mom’s sister has Alzheimer’s and she makes comments like, “They are not putting her in a nursing home. They are taking good care of her at home.” (Her daughter is taking care of her). 

She has told me that people who don’t take care of their mother aren’t good people. 

Now, I’ve never made her feel that she is going straight to a nursing home. I hope she never does. But this is doing a psychological number on me. It’s been going on for years. What if she does need to go to a nursing home due to circumstances beyond our control? It’s going to be emotionally traumatizing thing because of all the “conditioning “ she’s done. It seems more than I could bear. You’re a good person if you keep your mom out of one but a horrible person if you don’t. 

I have very gently tried to explain that sometimes there is no other choice and only a professional caregiver can give the care that is needed, and that people who make that decision are not “bad” people. 

Now, having said all that, I don’t think I could ever have my mom in my home. I could support my brother (she lives with him) for as long as he is willing/able to do it, but I could never live with her as she is extremely controlling, narcissistic, and difficult. I don’t think I could survive that with any kind of sanity left, and I don’t say that lightly. 

She has made me feel guilty over one thing or another my whole life, and this nursing home thing is another one of those things. When I was young, I would do or say something that didn’t please her (the things children do when they don’t yet know better) and she’d get angry and say, “You should be ashamed.” This is to give you an idea of how she’s always been. 

She once “tested” me to see how I would react by saying something about coming to live with me. She’s doing just fine and is very happy living with my golden child brother. I can’t see why she would even say that. 

So, one day, if she has to go to a nursing home, imagine the deep anguish this will cause. It will affect me forever. 

I’m distraught thinking about it, and it may never even need to happen. She also once tried to make me feel awful because I didn’t paint her toe nails.

I’m not going to be able to handle this. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Indigo Blue

[Indigo Blue]

Forgot to add…I just need advice on how to handle this. What to think. How to feel. What to do. 

[Carrie12345]

Refusing to care for an abuser doesn’t make one a bad person. It makes them a healthy one. 

[Slache]

There are self-centered people who put their parents in nursing homes. It can be a selfish thing to do. More often than not, it's the right thing to do for all parties, even if it's not desirable. People need proper care, and that includes the adult children! This is about everyone's collective needs, not one person's wants.

[almondbutterandjelly]

(big hugs)  Hold your boundary.  No you will not live with me.  When my parents were really in decline, my dad asked my family to move in with him.  I said no.  I didn't elaborate, but my mom was a narcissist and particularly mean to me.  Draw your boundaries.  Do you live far away?  That would be helpful.

The only thing I can tell you is that if she refuses to go to a nursing home, she will likely die sooner.  Mine did.  The voice in my head when I think about it is "Ding dong the witch is dead."  I don't feel guilty about that.  It's true.

Just to add:  Dad is now in assisted living and doing very well.  They take amazing care of him.  He is not a narcissist.

[JustEm]

I would simply end the conversation. "Mom, I know how you feel about nursing homes so I will not address it again." If she doesn't respect that then end the conversation. " Ok mom, I'm hanging up not, bye." Or "it was nice seeing you but we have to go" and then leave without saying anything else. If you are in the car with her taking her somewhere turn the music up. If she turns it down and continues the conversation, say nothing, turn around, and take her home.

There is nothing wrong with people going into a nursing home. It is often the safest option for many people. People aren't bad for making sure their loved one is safe and cared for regularly in a reputable nursing home 

[happi duck]

Many (hugs)

[Slache]

Just now, perky said:

The only thing I can tell you is that if she refuses to go to a nursing home, she will likely die sooner.  Mine did.  The voice in my head when I think about it is "Ding dong the witch is dead."  I don't feel guilty about that.  It's true.

Natural consequences.

[saraha]

Hugs @Indigo Blue. I’ve already told my sister my mom is not living with me. I will support her if that is what she wants or I will make arrangements, etc. But she is not living with me. I will be an emotional wreck when that time comes.

[Slache]

Did you read the related thread on elder care? This is a great response and I've seen essentially this exact scenario play out time and time again.

I did caretaking for my grandmother. I know what that means. I will not be bringing a parent into my home.

 

 

[Indigo Blue]

My head knows these things. My heart  would have a hard time separating that out. By default, I would be the horrible person to put my mom in a home no matter what my head says. I just know it. I don’t know how to “uncondition” that thinking. Or if I can.

[Slache]

6 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

My head knows these things. My heart  would have a hard time separating that out. By default, I would be the horrible person to put my mom in a home no matter what my head says. I just know it. I don’t know how to “uncondition” that thinking. Or if I can.

But since you're the scapegoat you will always be bad. Nothing you can do will ever be right in her eyes, so stop trying. Her understanding of life is wrong. Her understanding of you is wrong.

I know you know that, too, just reminding you. I think you might need more distance from this person. Distance can take the form of time or emotional distance.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Slache

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

My maternal family has this idea too.  I believe it’s both a cultural and a generational thing with them, not malicious or narcissistic. My great great grandmother was passed around her 12 kids; they each took her for a month out of the year. When she was finally bedbound she lived in a daughter’s kitchen in a bed(presumably the warmest part of the home). My great grandmother lived independently until 98, when she essentially died quickly from a stroke(within days).  She was extremely healthy, zero dementia, and was truly an outlier.  My grandmother can’t see any of that. She has late stage Parkinson’s. My aunt refuses to caregive so it’s all on my mom and the one paid caregiver my grandmother finally allowed.  My mother has grandkids she has never seen because she can’t travel that far or that long.  She’s had exactly one vacation in five years because she’s been caregiving for her parents, both of whom could have afforded assisted living or skilled nursing.

But the mindset is very much that if you put your parents into a nursing home you aren’t doing your duty.  My parents have finally realized that their late in life dreams of living surrounded by their many children who will help them are not coming true.  They’ve started to plan financially for assistance when they’re old and care for my sister, who is disabled but they’ve never pursued services.

Part of it also is magical thinking. Nobody ever thinks they’ll get old or need much care, and if they do, their children will provide it.  My mom literally never pursued an adult diagnosis or services for my now 30 year old sister because she truly believed for a long time that she’d just live with a sibling and be cared for.  My mom is now realizing that won’t happen.  My grandmother STILL lives in the magical realm where her Parkinson’s will reverse itself and she can be independent.  She absolutely should be paying for 24/7 care or skilled nursing, but in her mind that’s bad.

One caveat to my complaining: the truth is that all of our local nursing homes, with one exception, are not good places. The one that is has a several year waiting list, and is a progressive place so the smart elders move into the independent apartments in their 60s or 70s and then are able to access progressive care up to the skilled nursing home level. 

[Storygirl]

My mom didn't want to be in a nursing home, and I so didn't want to have her in one that I had her live with me for almost a year, while I was also homeschooling little children. I was dead set against it.

My mom kept her mother with Alzheimer's in our home when I was a teenager, but her father was paralyzed on one side from a stroke and did go into a nursing home. My mom, who was a nurse, also worked in a nursing home for a time.

No one else in my family was willing or able to step up and give Mom the care that she needed, and it became obvious that if I continued, it would be detrimental to both me and my children. So in the end, even though I was against it, I was the one who said, "Mom has to go in a nursing home, because I can't do this any more." And after that, I didn't get to see her often, because her home was several hours away from me.

So, I will tell you a few things.

1) Don't count on or ask your brother to do more to care for your mom than you are willing to do yourself.

2) If/when the time comes, and she needs professional care, yes, you will feel sorrow and guilt over that, because it's normal. Even people who aren't against nursing homes usually feel sorrow and guilt when the decision time comes.

3) It will be hard to put her in a nursing home, but remind yourself that having her in your home would be a thousand times harder and not a good idea for either of you.

4) If your brother offers to take her in of his own volition, without you at all suggesting it, do everything you can to help him, and be fully supportive of him reversing that decision at any time. I guarantee that you will watch his own health start to go downhill as he cares for her. We just watched FIL go through this during the pandemic with MIL, and I watched it happen to my dad, and I felt it happen to myself. It is inevitable for the caregiver to have great stress.

5) Finally, your mom will say things like this to get your attention. Try not to listen and to change the subject. Try not to dwell now on things that may cause stress later.

[marbel]

I'm sorry. I have known several people whose parents made them promise not to send them to a nursing home. Their families suffered because the adult child (always a daughter) couldn't break their promise. (I know you have not promised.) All of the above advice is good. Are you in any sort of therapy now? I know you have posted about your mother before I don't recall details, so I'm sorry if I'm being repetitive. 

I used to feel a lot of family guilt over another family relationship. A therapist really helped me sort out that I was not responsible for that person. I was always the responsible child in my family and it doesn't really ever end. But a therapist helped me to see my place in the family and set my boundaries. 

The bad people in your mother's scenario are the ones who use guilt to manipulate their children. 

[gardenmom5]

My mother had to be talked into putting her mother in a nursing home, for similar reasons.   Mom took her into her home - it was not good.  She required much more care than could reasonably be provided by one person,  and she still had to be talked into it.  Mom wasn't doing well, and every week was worse.  Putting her in a nursing home was best for everyone.   Grandmother got the level of care she needed that my mother was not able to give her. When she died, my mom only felt relief.

Think of her like a tantruming toddler. Do. Not. Take. What.  She. Says. Personally!  There are a lot of insecurities in the narcissist.  Just agree with her - you're a terrible child for getting her the appropriate care for her needs. Roll your eyes.  Its amazing how agreeing with them, and doing what you want, deflates their power. 

One of grandmother's favorite threats was: if you don't ___, I'll cut you out of my will.   Me: go ahead.   The next time she tried that on me I told her I thought she already did.  She never used that one on me again. Ever. She also backed off as she realized she couldn't control me anymore. 

She also got the message I was no longer affected by her other favorite threat - if you don't treat me right (whatever manipulative ploy she wanted.), god will damn you.  -- gee grandma,  I don't think you give policy to God. ..

[NorthwestMom]

34 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

I would simply end the conversation. "Mom, I know how you feel about nursing homes so I will not address it again." If she doesn't respect that then end the conversation. " Ok mom, I'm hanging up not, bye." Or "it was nice seeing you but we have to go" and then leave without saying anything else. If you are in the car with her taking her somewhere turn the music up. If she turns it down and continues the conversation, say nothing, turn around, and take her home.

There is nothing wrong with people going into a nursing home. It is often the safest option for many people. People aren't bad for making sure their loved one is safe and cared for regularly in a reputable nursing home 

This is perfect. 

It is unbelievably hard to provide care for a person 24/7. I definitely do not recommend it! 

[Harriet Vane]

My grandmother made those types of statements my whole life as well. I understand the weight of that all too intimately.

In an ironic twist of fate, my grandmother and her daughter ended up in the same care facility, in the same memory care unit. My aunt had a brain tumor. One of her surgeries to remove the tumor left her permanently and devastatingly brain damaged, and then after that her dementia continued in a typical Alzheimer's-like progression. In the years of her illness, my aunt was hospitalized multiple times before going into a locked memory care unit at the country convalescent center. It was the only thing they could afford to do. 

My aunt actually had a happy life at the nursing home. Happy as it could reasonably be, anyway. She was terribly sad to be away from her children and her husband. But she once told me that, "This is the best hospital I've been in." She made friends. Her husband signed her up for all the activities and special things he possibly could, and she loved all those things. She was somewhat of a favorite among staff and others, partly because she was so much younger than everyone, but also because my aunt tried hard to be friendly and to participate. It was a basic, county facility, but my aunt's attitude made it a good place for her.

My grandmother's dementia eventually became completely overwhelming. One of her daughters tried valiantly to take care of her with help from an assortment of grandkids (one in particular, bless him), and it became impossible. Really, truly impossible. Dementia is just so hard. It was a really, really difficult decision to put my grandmother in the same facility (even the same unit) as her daughter. My grandmother hated it. Hated every minute. She said truly awful things to everyone. She refused to participate in any way, though that was predictable because she had spent decades refusing to participate in life. Refusing to engage in activities. Refusing to connect with people as friends. Only interacting with a narrow little circle of family and spending all her time--ALL her time--watching TV. Her nightmare in that nursing home was a nightmare of her own making. I do not say that lightly.

(My one disclaimer--Dementia can and does also result in personality changes. There are some lovely people who became angry or bitter people due to brain damage. It does happen, and of course I cannot hold that against them. This is what happened with my beloved father-in-law, an extremely kind and peaceable man who spent the last year of his life hitting people when he got angry. It's not who he really was--it was a change wrought from brain damage. So it's true that some attitudes are the result of brain damage, but it is also very true that many people are able to choose their attitude.)

So my point is this: 

First, dementia is extremely hard for caregivers. It needs a full team to take care of a dementia patient. It just does. It's a reality your mother will likely never accept, but it's a truth that you should repeat to yourself over and over. 

Second, there is some extent to which your mom really does control what an experience will be for her. Her own choice to participate or not, to show friendliness to others or not, makes or breaks what her life will be like, whether in your brother's home or in a facility. That's her responsibility, not yours.

[PeterPan]

57 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

my brother (she lives with him)

Does your mother have her POA documentation signed? Are you her POA or is your brother? I know some people view it as a collaboration thing, but maybe it would help you to view it as the POA choice with the buck stopping with them. 

[gardenmom5]

29 minutes ago, perky said:

(big hugs)  Hold your boundary.  

  The voice in my head when I think about it is "Ding dong the witch is dead."  

 

I'm so proud of myself for not having a grave dance to that little ditty.  I found it amusing (it was a release) but felt no guilt thinking about it.  I felt sad she was such a person, that that would even come up as a thought. That was her choice. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Indigo Blue—therapy.

I think for a time, your mom had you completely conditioned to cater to her needs.

You’ve gotten to a point where cognitively you see some things “ain’t right” in how she manipulates you, but your heart still feels guilty. 
 

For many people, they struggle with taking the next step, which is acknowledging completely (heart and mind) about how wrong some things have been about your relationship—-because that’s extremely painful. It also can lead to a lot of anger as you have a lot of realizations…. But, that stage is also freeing because you realize this wasn’t about you, it was about her. 
 

Of course some people may need nursing home care. Some people need 24/7 care, or skilled nursing care, and no one person can provide all of that for another. It’s ok to set the boundary in your mind, even if you know she won’t accept it if you try to voice a refusal. 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

I will guess that if you had a car accident today and got a TBI which reduced your abilities to a toddler like level of functioning that she would not come be your caretaker…even though, according to her, that’s what loving families do.

[Tiberia]

1 hour ago, Indigo Blue said:

My head knows these things. My heart  would have a hard time separating that out. By default, I would be the horrible person to put my mom in a home no matter what my head says. I just know it. I don’t know how to “uncondition” that thinking. Or if I can.

You must do all you can to get over this kind of toxic thinking. Change your default. Therapy, books, support groups, religion of choice, whatever will help. If you don't get over this, your own toxic thinking will take your mother's place as abuser long after she is gone. Do what you must to get her voice out of your head.  Find your own voice. Trust your own voice. You are a kind and loving person. 

You are doing the right thing. Hold your boundaries. Protect yourself and your family. 

[Storygirl]

@Indigo Blue

I tried to get past this, but I'm finding I need to say it.

Would you consider changing the title of your post? As someone who has had a parent in a nursing home, it really struck a painful nerve with me, despite the comment at the end that indicates it's a quote from your mother. Every time I look at the boards and see the title of this thread, it's.... well, it's hard for me, and I'm probably not the only one.

Especially because you are writing about how your mother's words may be causing you emotional distress, I'm sure you wouldn't want your words to do that to others.

[bolt.]

I don't know the statistics for Americans, and I don't know if it's me who thinks differently from many people, or if Canadians are thinking differently than Americans... but for me, my family members, and my general circle of local humans of all ages: nobody is providing full-time in-home care for their aging elders. It just doesn't seem to be a thing.

Literally every funeral of an elderly person I've been to has been of someone who had spent their final years in long-term care. It's very much the norm. The only people who have died 'at home' (or after a short hospital stay coming from their own homes) have been non-elderly people. Younger people with known terminal diagnoses have died at home, with in-home hospice care services.

I might consider co-living with a parent for that phase of life where they are mostly well, but can't really do everything for themselves (cooking, cleaning, shopping, company). But once they reach the point that they need personal or medical caregiving -- that's going to be provided in a professional setting. And nobody thinks this is unusual.

So, I guess what I mean is, if getting nursing home care for people who need nursing makes someone "a bad person" -- then, basically, I and everyone I know is a bad person. Possibly even the whole country of Canada. All of us: bad people. Only 15% of Canadians die at home: and that includes accidents etc. The other 85% of us die in some sort of care setting -- which is by far the most normal place to spend one's final years as a Canadian who doesn't die suddently.

Me, I'd rather die suddenly. But if not, bring on the universal healthcare long-term care services. I need them, and I deserve them. I'm not making my kids sacrifice themselves to provide a 'personal touch' to my care -- while trying to do it without medical training. My kids can keep things personal by visiting me for a weekly game of cards. Let me pay someone to help me shower! (Edited to add: it's the healthcare system who would pay for 'shower help' type of services. Long-term care residents are only charged for non-medical things, such as food, rent, laundry, etc.)

Edited October 22, 2022 by bolt.

[prairiewindmomma]

Fwiw, when my relatives go at me with similar lines of thinking, my brain translates it as, “Speaker is anxious about…” And, a lot of us are anxious about what our own end of life situation may be. But, there’s a difference between “I am anxious about” and implying that we need to resolve their anxiety for them by doing xyz behavior instead.

[Indigo Blue]

38 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

@Indigo Blue

I tried to get past this, but I'm finding I need to say it.

Would you consider changing the title of your post? As someone who has had a parent in a nursing home, it really struck a painful nerve with me, despite the comment at the end that indicates it's a quote from your mother. Every time I look at the boards and see the title of this thread, it's.... well, it's hard for me, and I'm probably not the only one.

Especially because you are writing about how your mother's words may be causing you emotional distress, I'm sure you wouldn't want your words to do that to others.

Absolutely. I’m very sorry that this has affected you. Please let me know if this title is non-triggering. 😞

Edited October 22, 2022 by Indigo Blue

[Indigo Blue]

I’ll be away for awhile, but I’ll be back later to reply to these comments. So many wise words. I appreciate it very much. 

[Grace Hopper]

OP, I haven’t read through all of this, but are you in therapy yourself for this - dealing with being a child of a narcissist/manipulative parent? Because I think if not, that would be the most helpful thing you can do. Because it appears your mother has conditioned you to accept guilt as a tool she can use to manipulate you to see her own desires met. 
 

I felt guilt when my parent had to go into nursing care, but after deeply examining my feelings, came to realize it was actually not guilt, but great sadness over what could have been. If things were different - if my parent were different - we could have had a great relationship. That realization allowed me to process the grief on a normal timeline, rather than constantly beating myself up with a club of guilt. 
 

A “Good Child” does what one can to see that the true, basic needs of an aging parent are met. That doesn’t mean that they have to be met exactly as the elder wishes, if the elder’s demands are unreasonable. I think of it as acting as the Good Samaritan, who made arrangements for the injured traveler to be cared for at the inn. He didn’t take the guy home to live with him. 
 

I think many people from older generations have expectations based on what life was like 50 years ago and their own parents stayed at home for care. That was often fine because there were typically more family members living in the vicinity to share caregiving responsibilities, and people didn’t have medical interventions to keep the body going while the mind deteriorated. Today we have so many people whose minds outlive their bodies; providing full time care for a dementia patient is impossible for a single caregiver. It’s not safe and does not contribute to the thriving of either party. I recently read a comment that struck a cord with me, maybe it was even in this forum (someone provide the credit if you know it, I can’t recall at the moment), something like this: your duty is not to your ancestors, but to your descendants. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Grace Hopper

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, Slache said:

There are self-centered people who put their parents in nursing homes. It can be a selfish thing to do. More often than not, it's the right thing to do for all parties, even if it's not desirable. People need proper care, and that includes the adult children! This is about everyone's collective needs, not one person's wants.

Right. Most of us are going to have to work in order to keep health insurance and put enough away to maybe pay for some care when we ourselves are elderly. My husband is only 58, will work to 65, and currently has an 85 almost 86 year old mother who is VERY demanding. She doesn't seem to care if she runs him into the ground. His brother lives 800 miles away, his sister 1400, and his sister is a very abusive person who cannot be allowed to be around. How is he supposed to work full time (for his company that is 54 hours a week for salaried personnel and often works 60) and take care of her and not collapse? Well, of course I pitch in. But I need to get back to work and can't because between her and my own mother, there is too much to do for them. We are slowly transitioning what we can to hired help, however, neither one has enough money to hire out enough to really give us a break.

People live on average quite a bit longer with debilitating conditions than they did in previous generations. Medical technology is a double edged sword, wonderful and crisis causing all in one. We still as a nation have not collectively met these challenges head on. And frankly, if the economy is a worry, it cannot handle a mass exodus of workers taking up unpaid care giving as the largest generation in history is embarking on a mass retirement and a lot of health problems.

I was still trying to manage homeschooling a high school senior, and a 10th grader, and working part time, and my mom recovering from surgery and my dad on hospice simultaneously. I ended up with health issues of my own, and in therapy for the inevitable mental crash that came. Hospice here only provides one hour of CNA and one RN visit per week. Nothing else. No insurance pays for in home care for someone who is non ambulatory and is recovering from surgery. My assumption is that in families where there isn't a mule like me that kills themselves to provide care, people just go to the nursing home.

 

[fairfarmhand]

3 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

My head knows these things. My heart  would have a hard time separating that out. By default, I would be the horrible person to put my mom in a home no matter what my head says. I just know it. I don’t know how to “uncondition” that thinking. Or if I can.

When these thoughts come into your head, picture some lovely person that you know who has had to make that difficult decision. "I would be a terrible person to do that to mom. But wait...Ms. Susan from church just had to put her dad in a home. She tried so hard to make it work and she loved him so much. And she's a lovely person. Sometimes lovely, wonderful people have to make hard decisions and these decisions are in the best interests of all of the involved parties. One decision does not determine whether a person is good or bad."

[Rosie_0801]

3 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

Forgot to add…I just need advice on how to handle this. What to think. How to feel. What to do. 

Have you tried feeling angry that she's trying to force you to self-abuse?

[fairfarmhand]

My dad cared for his dad in his home and then for my mom as she died from cancer over 12 years. He's told me repeatedly to NOT bring him into my home. He told me this "When you're caring for someone around the clock, the relationship begins to die. You're no longer a parent and child or a husband and wife. You're a caregiver. I don't want you to be my caregiver. I want you to be my daughter and love me as only a daughter can. I can pay someone to shower me and change my depends. I can't pay someone to love me and be my daughter." 

I feel that this is a lovely gift. I've told my kids similar. I told them I hope to be the kind of old person that everyone wants to visit and enjoy. But if my care starts to take over their lives, then they need to hire someone or find a lovely place for me AND COME TO SEE ME! 

OP, your mother is manipulating you. When that voice comes into your head, you need to tell it to hush. That those sentiments are lies from a sick and twisted mentally ill person.

[gardenmom5]

14 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Have you tried feeling angry that she's trying to force you to self-abuse?

^ this ^

[Faith-manor]

18 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Have you tried feeling angry that she's trying to force you to self-abuse?

As usual, Rosie nailed it spot on!!!

[pinball]

If I was Canadian, I wouldn’t be counting on any care from the government in my old age…

https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-health-toronto-7c631558a457188d2bd2b5cfd360a867
 

Disturbing’: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

 

 

[Tanaqui]

Firstly, all of this needs to be brought up with your therapist.

But with that said, honestly, your mom's issues are her issues. I don't know what's causing her to fixate on nursing homes, but it's got approximately bupkis to do with you. So stop engaging with her. I'm sure somebody has told you about JADE by now - justify, argue, defend, explain. Stop doing this with her. About anything. You do not need her to understand your reasons, or anybody else's reasons.

There are two rules you should live by when it comes to this sort of thing. They're really the same rule, just phrased differently:

1. Reasons are for reasonable people.

2. When you discuss things with other people, you are sending the message that these things are up for discussion. And if they're not - they're not! So stop doing it.

The next time she brings up nursing homes with you, say "I've already spoken to you about this and I don't intend to do it again", and if she keeps talking say "If you keep talking about this I will leave", and if (when) she keeps talking - leave! Immediately. And then don't interact with her again for at least a week or two, because she has got to get it through her head that if she does Bad Thing A, then she gets Negative Consequence A. If she keeps on pushing your buttons, the result is you will no longer sit around and pay attention to her.

[Storygirl]

1 hour ago, Indigo Blue said:

Absolutely. I’m very sorry that this has affected you. Please let me know if this title is non-triggering. 😞

Thank you! I appreciate it.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

I recently read a comment that struck a cord with me, maybe it was even in this forum (someone provide the credit if you know it, I can’t recall at the moment), something like this: your duty is not to your ancestors, but to your descendants. 

I could not agree more, and just to add on to that - inasmuch as you do have an obligation to your parents, that obligation is mutual. If your parents hurt you, or chose not to take care of you, then they chose not to uphold their end of the bargain. Which means the whole thing is null and void. You have no responsibility to take care of people who abused you or neglected you.

Indigo Blue, if your mother wanted you to sit by her bed and hold her hand as she died, she should have tried being nicer to you. She didn't want to do that, so now she can live with the consequences of that choice.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Tanaqui

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

One of my favorite quotes is from Anne Lamott. She says, “You own everything that happened to you. Tell your stories. If people wanted you to write warmly about them, they should have behaved better.”

When my mom complains about my aunt refusing to take care of their mom, I remind her of this. My grandmother, who was a good grandparent, was not a good parent.  I tell my mom that if she(my grandmother) was so set on having her children as caregivers and not going to skilled nursing, she should have treated them both much better. 
 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Grace Hopper]

Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

One of my favorite quotes is from Anne Lamott. She says, “You own everything that happened to you. Tell your stories. If people wanted you to write warmly about them, they should have behaved better.”

When my mom complains about my aunt refusing to take care of their mom, I remind her of this. My grandmother, who was a good grandparent, was not a good parent.  I tell my mom that if she was so set on having her children as caregivers, she should have treated them both much better. 
 

Amen!

 

I could even write well about someone who at least sincerely sought forgiveness. 

[DawnM]

I had to have my "I can handle X, Y, and Z but not A, B, or C" conversations with my husband when dad lived here.

We will not do toileting.   I can't even help my dad as he is much larger than I am, but even so, NOPE!   And he got to where he couldn't walk.    Those two things were my line in the sand.   He hates being in a nursing home, has made comments that I have "dropped him off and left him" or that I "dumped him there."   But we simply cannot care for him when he can do nothing on his own, including showering, toileting, etc.....he was buzzing us every 30 min all night long to come help him get to the bathroom for two nights in a row, we got no sleep, and couldn't  handle it.

All that to say, if you need round the clock care and can't do it, you can't do it.....

Another little dirty secret?   I asked the doctor there to give him anti-anxiety meds without telling him and she did and it has helped tremendously.

[Jaybee]

My mom is/was a really good mom. She's a sweet 92yo. She has recently begun to decline a lot. She lives in a nice downstairs apartment in my sister's home. As much as we love it that she has been able to stay there up to this point, there may come a time soon that she has to move into a nursing home. She has prepared for this for years by paying for long-term care insurance because she didn't want any of us to have to care for her if she reaches that point. We don't want that to have to happen, but once she can't care for herself as to basic needs (like @DawnMmentioned), there really isn't another option. My sisters all work full-time. I live far away from everybody else. Even if she could live with me, I couldn't manage all her physical needs once she is to that point. I hope if your mom needs that kind of care, that you can listen to your objective voice and do what you need to do so that she can be looked after, and not listen to her voice telling you that you are failing--because it isn't true.

[bolt.]

3 hours ago, pinball said:

If I was Canadian, I wouldn’t be counting on any care from the government in my old age…

https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-health-toronto-7c631558a457188d2bd2b5cfd360a867
 

Disturbing’: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

 

 

This fear-mongering is unappreciated and inappropriate. Canada provides universal healthcare to every living Canadian person.

The article that you provided was very interesting, but not at all relevant. The fact that medical assistance in dying also exists in Canada (alongside universal healthcare) and that it is complex and nuanced, and that Canada's version of it is currently functioning imperfectly -- does not mean that the healthcare our elders receive has changed or is changing.

It's ridiculous to suggest that the mere availability of medical assistance in dying will lead to a lack of healthcare services in the future. Providing that option does not mean that our new health policy is "murder the elderly to save cash" -- I assure you.

It's also totally off topic. We can talk more in another thread if you like.

[KungFuPanda]

7 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

My head knows these things. My heart  would have a hard time separating that out. By default, I would be the horrible person to put my mom in a home no matter what my head says. I just know it. I don’t know how to “uncondition” that thinking. Or if I can.

Your mom has already cast you as a horrible person and has been inducing these feelings of guilt and shame your whole life. It won’t be worse if she goes into a home. It will be MUCH worse if she lives with you. Just TELL her you know you can never live with her. Her retirement plan is to guilt her children into taking her into their homes. She needs to be told point blank that it’s not an option  so she can formulate a plan B. You may want to work with a therapist and get a handle on this before you get coaxed to do something that’s unhealthy for you and your family. 

[Jaybee]

Also, my in-laws began to need 24-hr. care. Their children arranged for in-home care, maybe for a year or so? It was a constant headache, with drama between the caregivers of the various shifts, missing items, people quitting, bringing children/boyfriends on their shifts. I was so relieved when their kids finally decided it was time for a nursing home. They shared the room. FIL by that time was having dementia to the point that he was being unkind to MIL and didn't know her much of the time. The very sad side to this is that covid hit soon after they were moved, so their children were unable to visit for a long time. If there is anything to regret about their situation, that was it. The children would much have preferred being able to visit regularly in their room.

[Scarlett]

7 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

My head knows these things. My heart  would have a hard time separating that out. By default, I would be the horrible person to put my mom in a home no matter what my head says. I just know it. I don’t know how to “uncondition” that thinking. Or if I can.

The next time that thought runs through your head, ‘horrible people put their mothers in nursing homes’……finish out that thought.  Who thinks such a person is horrible?  Your mother?  You already know she is not a nice person and she certainly isn’t kind to you so think through why you care if she thinks you are a horrible person.  Think about what people you admire and respect and who are kind to you would think.  And even then no one else can walk in your shoes.  
 

Somehow you need your heart to listen to your head.  

[Ting Tang]

This is tough.  Does she have a plan for herself, a contingency plan, should she no longer be able to care for herself?  I suppose you could respond like that, but it probably won't make much of a difference.  

I actually haven't spoken to my mother since 2011.  Everything in her life is and was my fault. She is a mentally ill alcoholic, and it took me a long time to set this boundary.  From time to time I will see a public Facebook post of hers, and I know a relationship with her would still be unsafe for me.  Once she told me to "watch out" because someone she was involved with was involved with drugs.  As in, she was going to send them after me?  She told me this when I was married, living far away, and pregnant with my first son.  She already looks like the walking dead, so I am not really sure what will become of her.  The worst thing is not how much it affected me but how much it affected my brother---he is still living deep in guilt, and he is a married man in his 40s.  He always struggled to find himself.

My point of sharing this is you really cannot win with people like this.  I agree with the others---please avoid making any decisions that will harm you and your family.  Birthing a human doesn't give them forever-control over said human. 

[Resilient]

Family members have fought everything from nursing home to assisted living to in-home assistance. Every single time it was well past the beginning of the need for it. Different things helped change their minds.

Caregiver to elder: You have to have in-home care. I can't do this alone anymore. I'm not trained, I'm hurting you, and it is hurting me--my back, my hands...everything. So it is in-home care or a nursing home. But no more of *this*. And you will pay for it. Not me.
Elder: I want to leave YOU my money, not give it away.
Caregiver: If I had my inheritance this minute, I would spend it to get in-home care. I can't do this anymore.  

=====

(Elder to care-giver, after some personal care administered): You're mean! You hurt me! 
Caregiver: I am not trained in this. I am doing the best I can. I know it isn't good enough. I know it hurts you. But you won't have it any other way, and this is your choice, not mine. Trust me. (Home healthcare started the next day, with services starting in 4 days.)

Daughter to elder parents as father being released from 3 weeks in hospital for "failure to thrive": You two are going to assisted living. Mom, you can't take care of Dad anymore, not to the extent he needs care. He can't put on his compression socks, and neither can you. You can't shop for groceries because you can't drive and Dad can't drive anymore. You need a dining room with prepared food.

Caregiver: I'm signing up for hospice to get some services provided for you.
Elder: You want me to die.
Caregiver: No. I want you to live as long as you can, and with the help you need to make that happen. Hospice does that.
Elder: It will cost too much.
Caregiver: Medicare pays.
Elder: Let's go!

Elder: Why am I in this hospital bed? I'm not sick (after being bedridden for 6 weeks)
Caregiver: The hospital bed helps you sit up to eat. It helps me take care of you - bending over your low bed is killing my back.

Spouse of increasingly demented person put up with everything for way too long, sacrificing her 80yo health.  One day she LOST it and said to her son: I can't take this anymore.  Son had already made arrangements for dementia care for Dad, but he waited until MOM said what was needed. But Dad was in memory care within the week. (Had Son not already been on this, it would have been at least 3-4 months more...and he likely would have been a pariah for interfering in their lives.)  Both Mom and Dad's health improved dramatically when Dad got the care he needed from the place that knew how to give it.  

====

Money. Pride. Fear. Inability to face reality. Stubbornness. All of these people were  perfectly wonderful people - no narcissists, no broken relationships. It's just not a great time in anyone's life, and all the faults and failings rise to the surface.  The trick is to figure out how to make the most of what is best for everyone.  And everyone has to participate in that.

 

 

[pinball]

45 minutes ago, bolt. said:

This fear-mongering is unappreciated and inappropriate. Canada provides universal healthcare to every living Canadian person.

The article that you provided was very interesting, but not at all relevant. The fact that medical assistance in dying also exists in Canada (alongside universal healthcare) and that it is complex and nuanced, and that Canada's version of it is currently functioning imperfectly -- does not mean that the healthcare our elders receive has changed or is changing.

It's ridiculous to suggest that the mere availability of medical assistance in dying will lead to a lack of healthcare services in the future. Providing that option does not mean that our new health policy is "murder the elderly to save cash" -- I assure you.

It's also totally off topic. We can talk more in another thread if you like.

No, I’m good. 

you made yourself perfectly clear.