Where to start with getting a teen deprogrammed/fighting brainwashing (that has already occurred)

[Tap]

I have a friend whose 16yo son is deep into Anarchist websites, Aryan Brotherhood, anti-government, anti-sematic and anti-trans/gay etc. He was not raised this way and has got himself into trouble at school and Serious trouble with the law due to his beliefs/actions.  It is getting clear, that he is getting indoctrinated/brainwashed by these people and there is no rationalizing with him. Warning! Highly offensive statement coming up!!!  For example he was telling me last night that black people are not really human because the are part monkey and that he has DNA evidence to prove it that is from .gov websites. Everything he says is offensive in someway and he is 100% adamant that he is right and any evidence that you show him that is contrary, he says is a government lie and put out by ignorant people who don't know the truth. 

I am trying to give the family some support, but am a bit lost on where to start. The parents have been talking to him and hoping it would pass as a stage....but it is getting very clear, he is getting deeper and deeper into it. The recent escalation of behaviors has led the parents to completely change that strategy. The teen says they have been involved in this community for about 3 years through Discord chats and talking to people online. We are looking into therapy services, but I am not sure how to find a therapist who can work with this caliber of issues. The parents were trying to use more gentle methods to guide him, and had him seeing a counselor at school. But they recently found out the therapist moved him from weekly to every other week, and within 2 months, wasn't going to sessions at all.

 

Help!!!!

Edited October 22, 2022 by Tap

[Eos]

I am sending you strength, hugs, and resolute love. Start here: https://www.lifeafterhate.org/exitusa

Thank you for your service to this world.

[Heartstrings]

I think a full cutting off from electronics has to be step one.  No computer, no phone, mom and dad literally take everything to work and lock it up.  Parents cell phones go under their pillows at night.  Kill the smart TV, kill the Xbox, kill Alexa.  You can’t start de-brain washing while the brain washing is on going. 

[Tap]

7 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think a full cutting off from electronics has to be step one.  No computer, no phone, mom and dad literally take everything to work and lock it up.  Parents cell phones go under their pillows at night.  Kill the smart TV, kill the Xbox, kill Alexa.  You can’t start de-brain washing while the brain washing is on going. 

This is where we started last night. Every thing is gone or locked up with only parent access. His computers and tech, now reside at my house to keep it out of reach. I talked the parents into shutting down Alexa devices (hard because the house is partly a smart house ) but they are willing to do what needs to be done. I work from home, so I will be spending part of my work days there for a while, so there is no time he is alone in the house. We talked last night about possibly changing schools to break the group of people he is hanging out with. His phone is getting an app that only allows certain phone numbers in and out, and the rest is locked down. He is turning in his school laptop, and will have to do everything in paper form. 

I also suggested they change the passwords to their own computers/phones etc. Incase he knows the passwords. 

 

Any other suggestions under this topic welcome as well. We are trying to think of anything that can go online (tablets, ipads/ipods, game systems, Alexa devices etc.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Tap

[Melissa in Australia]

Hugs. Any type of fanaticism is extremely concerning 

 Is there support groups or help lines or something for other types of fanaticism, like religious or something 

 I am wondering if the help /debrainwashing process might be similar. 

I would think that a teen might be the absolutely worst age to try help.. And the person has probably been well trained in counter arguments for any reasoning

[Terabith]

6 minutes ago, Tap said:

Any other suggestions under this topic welcome as well. We are trying to think of anything that can go online (tablets, ipads/ipods, game systems, Alexa devices etc.

I've seen grounded kids tweeting from their fridge, if it's a smart one.  I think there are a number of household appliances that can go online.

[KSera]

I have read several articles about this problem over the last few years (discord is such a problem for so many families!). Here’s one that talks a bit about how to help. It seems a key is talking to them a lot in ways that doesn’t make them defensive but allows them to gradually question their own beliefs: ‘Do you have white teenage sons? Listen up.’ How white supremacists are recruiting boys online.

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Tap said:

This is where we started last night. Every thing is gone or locked up with only parent access. His computers and tech, now reside at my house to keep it out of reach. I talked the parents into shutting down Alexa devices (hard because the house is partly a smart house ) but they are willing to do what needs to be done. I work from home, so I will be spending part of my work days there for a while, so there is no time he is alone in the house. We talked last night about possibly changing schools to break the group of people he is hanging out with. His phone is getting an app that only allows certain phone numbers in and out, and the rest is locked down. He is turning in his school laptop, and will have to do everything in paper form. 

I also suggested they change the passwords to their own computers/phones etc. Incase he knows the passwords. 

 

Any other suggestions under this topic welcome as well. We are trying to think of anything that can go online (tablets, ipads/ipods, game systems, Alexa devices etc.

I have tech savvy kids so  I don’t trust apps.  I think I would either get him a baby phone with only a few numbers allowed in or out or I would just take away the phone.  He needs to be living like it’s 1989.  I would also stick an AirTag or 3 on his various things, shoes, backpack, whatever.  
 

I’m really hoping he isn’t driving and doesn’t have car keys.   And you’re 100 right on changing his school if possible.  
 

I think before they work on deprogramming they really need to work on the relationships.  Kids are attracted to this stuff to fill a void, to have a community and a pseudo family.   Now that there are no electronics they can read, play cards, have family dinners, take walks together, hike, fix up a car, go camping out of cell phone range.  Anything to help knit him back into their family.   All without mentioning his beliefs or trying to convert him back.

 
He needs life lines back to reality.  They want to avoid making him feel defensive or like he needs to dig in on his position.  They also need to always be thinking about ways for him to “save face”.  Any whiff of embarrassment or shame is going to have him pulling back into this stuff so fast to protect his fragile ego.  
 

 

[ScoutTN]

Pinwheel phones have no access to the internet, no social media, parent controlled contact list etc. Android. 

 

[Frances]

I’m trying to recall where I read an article about parents who went through this with their teen son and brought him out of it. They actually attended some rallies with him, as I recall, among other things. I think it was an article on the Longform site. I’ll see if I can find it.

Here it is: https://www.washingtonian.com/2019/05/05/what-happened-after-my-13-year-old-son-joined-the-alt-right/

Edited October 22, 2022 by Frances

[Grace Hopper]

What a difficult situation. 
 

The first thing I’d do is - while the teen is at school - flip his room and any other places and creative hiding spaces for weapons. Because you just never know. 
 

And I’d have a plan to deal with just how angry he’s going to be when he gets cut off from technology. And figure out how to prevent him from going to the public library to access websites from there. 
 

One thing to consider, if he doesn’t have a job, he is old enough to get one. Fill some of that time with hard work. Ideally he would find something in a good environment (that is, have parents try to figure something out via their network of friends and family) and have his check direct deposited to a savings account so he’s not flush with cash, but able to start seeing that he is capable of earning, and planning for a positive future. 
 

I don’t have experience with specifically cult deprogramming, but with an extended family teen with an addiction issue that required a full-stop intervention. 

[Laura Corin]

4 hours ago, Tap said:

 His phone is getting an app that only allows certain phone numbers in and out, and the rest is locked down. 

I would replace the phone with a non-smart one, otherwise he may find a way to override the app.

[rebcoola]

My only experience of something like this ended with the teen being basically kidnapped from a cult and taken to a residential therapy program.

[bookbard]

Any chance the teen is on the autism spectrum and has extremely rigid thinking? If so, working with a therapist on cognitive flexibility could help. I know teens can sometimes be black and white thinkers, so it might not be the case, but holding rigid extreme ideas and being unable to see a different perspective can be a sign of autism.

[TravelingChris]

I am going to second getting all weapons out of the house.  Also, this perspective may be helpful. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes

[Tanaqui]

1 hour ago, bookbard said:

Any chance the teen is on the autism spectrum and has extremely rigid thinking? If so, working with a therapist on cognitive flexibility could help. I know teens can sometimes be black and white thinkers, so it might not be the case, but holding rigid extreme ideas and being unable to see a different perspective can be a sign of autism.

 

You know, the vast majority of extremists are not autistic. Unless you have some actual data showing that we're overrepresented among extremist groups, I gotta say, I think you're jumping in a wild and kinda offensive direction.

With that said, everything I've read on cults and radicalization and the like suggests that people don't move in this direction because of rigid thinking, they do so because these groups fill an emotional need. Moving out of these groups requires finding another way to handle that, and a new social group. Perhaps several new social groups, where he can have lots of positive interactions with people that will "trump" the positive interactions he already feels he's getting with his online pals.

[Wheres Toto]

2 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

You know, the vast majority of extremists are not autistic. Unless you have some actual data showing that we're overrepresented among extremist groups, I gotta say, I think you're jumping in a wild and kinda offensive direction.

With that said, everything I've read on cults and radicalization and the like suggests that people don't move in this direction because of rigid thinking, they do so because these groups fill an emotional need. Moving out of these groups requires finding another way to handle that, and a new social group. Perhaps several new social groups, where he can have lots of positive interactions with people that will "trump" the positive interactions he already feels he's getting with his online pals.

I agree.  I've always read the opposite - that the rigid thinking and extreme logical side makes those who are autistic LESS likely to fall into these cults.    The cults appeal to emotion, feelings of being pushed out, of not being the dominant culture, of being replaced or repressed or treated unfairly.     

My son is on the spectrum and prejudice seems stupid and ridiculous to him.  It doesn't make sense from a purely logical point of view.  

[Lecka]

I thought the comment about autism was pretty mild and neutral, and I don’t find it offensive or over-the-top.

 

I agree it’s not a majority of extremists, and I agree it’s not a majority of people on the autism spectrum, but I think it’s something that exists and would be relevant if it was the case. 

[Dmmetler]

9 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

What a difficult situation. 
 

The first thing I’d do is - while the teen is at school - flip his room and any other places and creative hiding spaces for weapons. Because you just never know. 
 

And I’d have a plan to deal with just how angry he’s going to be when he gets cut off from technology. And figure out how to prevent him from going to the public library to access websites from there. 
 

One thing to consider, if he doesn’t have a job, he is old enough to get one. Fill some of that time with hard work. Ideally he would find something in a good environment (that is, have parents try to figure something out via their network of friends and family) and have his check direct deposited to a savings account so he’s not flush with cash, but able to start seeing that he is capable of earning, and planning for a positive future. 
 

I don’t have experience with specifically cult deprogramming, but with an extended family teen with an addiction issue that required a full-stop intervention. 

Or the school library. Some sites will be blocked, but there’s no way they can get all of them.

[chiguirre]

The cheapest Kindle Fire is $25 and this kid could easily get online at any fast food restaurant or get a neighbor to give him their wifi password.

The only way to make sure he's not visiting hate sites is to have eyes on him 24/7, including at school. That seems like a huge lift. 

Hugs, Tap, this is a hard situation.

[ktgrok]

10 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

 

I think before they work on deprogramming they really need to work on the relationships.  Kids are attracted to this stuff to fill a void, to have a community and a pseudo family.   

 

 

This. So much this. 

heck, if at all financially possilbe I'd be pulling the kid out of school for a few months and have at least one parent go do a trip with him. 

[ktgrok]

I will also say that in at least one high profile situaition where someone grew up with these kind of beliefs and un-learned them the big factor was making relationships and getting to know people that their cult considered "bad". So meeting LGBTQ people, spending time with people of other races, etc. 

[Lucy the Valiant]

In a reverse but parallel situation, a teen we love very much went to wilderness camp. It was a long and painful (and extremely expensive) process, but ultimately successful. 

[Terabith]

If he’s going to school, any school, I don’t think you can keep him away from technology.  He can borrow someone’s phone.  Or go to a school library. It’s so ubiquitous.  

[Kanin]

7 hours ago, bookbard said:

extremely rigid thinking? If so, working with a therapist on cognitive flexibility could help.

There are plenty of people who are black and white thinkers and that lack cognitive flexibility, that aren't on the spectrum. But I do agree that if he's an either-or thinker, he may be lacking skills in the areas of flexibility and perspective taking.

[Grace Hopper]

1 hour ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

In a reverse but parallel situation, a teen we love very much went to wilderness camp. It was a long and painful (and extremely expensive) process, but ultimately successful. 

The teen I mentioned upthread ended up being placed in a rehab boarding school. It broke him away from the old friend group, gave him a new group of peers and mentors, provided very strict oversight of access to the internet, provided a solid academic route to high school graduation and college entrance. To this day he says it saved his life. 
 

One of his parents had to cash out a 401K to make it happen. So yeah, not cheap. The parents told me that they had tried everything before reaching the point of such a serious move (short term rehab, trying to supervise all the time, etc). Now when other parents with kids in the same circumstances call them for advice, they say to go straight for the big intervention. They just found it impossible to plug every hole in the dam, and couldn’t curb the behavior without a total change of environment. 
 

And these parents weren’t just sitting at home letting someone else do the hard parts. While the teen was in school, the parents worked with local police to break up the dealer rings in the area that were supplying the high school kids, and they were successful in doing that. Sometimes doing battle for your kids looks different than we imagine. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Grace Hopper

[whitestavern]

Haven’t read all the replies so this may have been floated out but they should change their internet pw in case he’s got other devices they don’t know about. Also he may have his own VPN. Not sure how to find that out. 

[Starr]

I remember the deprogramming of religious cults in the old days. I thought then and now you really need something to fill up what you take away. Ways to feel good about ones self and a way to work with and assist others. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

Now when other parents with kids in the same circumstances call them for advice, they say to go straight for the big intervention. They just found it impossible to plug every hole in the dam, and couldn’t curb the behavior without a total change of environment. 

The thing with smaller interventions is that they just feel like pressure and the teen will feel resentful. 

Setting true limits almost certainly requires a radical change. It sucks 😕 . 

[Tanaqui]

5 hours ago, Lecka said:

I thought the comment about autism was pretty mild and neutral, and I don’t find it offensive or over-the-top.

 

I agree it’s not a majority of extremists, and I agree it’s not a majority of people on the autism spectrum, but I think it’s something that exists and would be relevant if it was the case. 

Sure. I bet it's also not a majority of Christians who are extremists, but if I came in here and said that the problem might actually be his religion, people would be upset, no matter how "mildly" or "neutrally" I phrased it.

Heck, I'd probably get people mad at me even if it is the case that Christians are overrepresented among American extremists!

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Tanaqui said:

Sure. I bet it's also not a majority of Christians who are extremists, but if I came in here and said that the problem might actually be his religion, people would be upset, no matter how "mildly" or "neutrally" I phrased it.

Heck, I'd probably get people mad at me even if it is the case that Christians are overrepresented among American extremists!

Yeah. The generalizations are just going to make people defensive and are therefore not helpful as advice. 

[Tanaqui]

re: wilderness camp, rehab boarding school:

If the parents go this route, they must be *very careful* to do their research beforehand. A lot of those places are really just abuse factories. Sometimes that's the whole model, other times it's more an effect of the fact that the staff is inadequately trained and there isn't a high enough staff:student ratio, but you don't want to think you're sending your child to get help but actually you're sending them to Tranquility Bay or someplace worse.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Tanaqui said:

re: wilderness camp, rehab boarding school:

If the parents go this route, they must be *very careful* to do their research beforehand. A lot of those places are really just abuse factories. Sometimes that's the whole model, other times it's more an effect of the fact that the staff is inadequately trained and there isn't a high enough staff:student ratio, but you don't want to think you're sending your child to get help but actually you're sending them to Tranquility Bay or someplace worse.

What would you suggest instead? It does seem like a radical change is not optional. 

[Tanaqui]

I would suggest doing a considerable amount of research first. If nothing else, do a cursory google search to see if there are any news reports of deaths at the school/camp, or if there is a community of survivors. When these places are actually well-run and helpful and not abusive, they do not generate loads of survivors who recount stories of being woken up at midnight repeatedly, being forced to do 20 hour treks with no food or water, having medical emergencies that were ignored, being told by the adults to physically assault the other kids, etc.

Ironically, a boarding school that does not advertise itself as being particularly "therapeutic" but still limits internet access might be a better, safer bet. It'd at least give the kid a chance to get a new in-person social group that he can actually be social with, which does seem to be part of the problem from the description. He's not being radicalized in-person, he's doing it online. This sounds like he doesn't have offline friends and activities to fill his hours.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Tanaqui

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Ironically, a boarding school that does not advertise itself as being particularly "therapeutic" but still limits internet access might be a better, safer bet. It'd at least give the kid a chance to get a new in-person social group that he can actually be social with, which does seem to be part of the problem from the description. He's not being radicalized in-person, he's doing it online. This sounds like he doesn't have offline friends and activities to fill his hours.

That's an interesting point. I'd be curious to hear what this kid's social life is like. 

[bookbard]

12 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

You know, the vast majority of extremists are not autistic. Unless you have some actual data showing that we're overrepresented among extremist groups, I gotta say, I think you're jumping in a wild and kinda offensive direction.

I'm sorry that my comment came across as offensive, and upset you. I didn't mean "many extremists are autistic". More than "some teenage boys, who have signs of cognitive inflexibility, may have undiagnosed autism, and therefore need help". Exploring the impact of adolescent cognitive inflexibility on emotional and behavioural problems experienced by autistic adults - Matthew J Hollocks, Tony Charman, Gillian Baird, Catherine Lord, Andrew Pickles, Emily Simonoff, 2022 (sagepub.com)

[Harriet Vane]

3 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

I would suggest doing a considerable amount of research first. If nothing else, do a cursory google search to see if there are any news reports of deaths at the school/camp, or if there is a community of survivors. When these places are actually well-run and helpful and not abusive, they do not generate loads of survivors who recount stories of being woken up at midnight repeatedly, being forced to do 20 hour treks with no food or water, having medical emergencies that were ignored, being told by the adults to physically assault the other kids, etc.

Ironically, a boarding school that does not advertise itself as being particularly "therapeutic" but still limits internet access might be a better, safer bet. It'd at least give the kid a chance to get a new in-person social group that he can actually be social with, which does seem to be part of the problem from the description. He's not being radicalized in-person, he's doing it online. This sounds like he doesn't have offline friends and activities to fill his hours.

This.

This is why I like Katie's suggestion for at least one parent to consider taking a big trip together with this kid. Gets the kid out of context, doing something truly fascinating, and it fills a relationship need.

The "formula" for any sort of huge change (and I will readily admit my experience is more with addictions or abuse)--

--New context

--Healthy social connections

--Busy activity doing things that are of genuine interest to the person

--Lavish, loving support of close family. LAVISH. There is no such thing as saying "I love you" too many times. Lots of praise and encouragement.

--I will add physical activity, adequate sleep, and nature as well. All affirming things that build the right feelings within the person, makes fertile ground for the other lessons to grow in.

 

New context is absolutely key. BUT a new context without healthy social connections and family connection may simply result in the child continuing down the same path anyway. It is essential that the child feel loved, valued, supported, connected.

[TravelingChris]

And for areas with bad wifi, I suggest National Parks, etc. Also, mountainous areas often have bad connectivity.  Lots of places in Hawaii had bad connectivity,.

[Tanaqui]

1 hour ago, bookbard said:

I'm sorry that my comment came across as offensive, and upset you. I didn't mean "many extremists are autistic". More than "some teenage boys, who have signs of cognitive inflexibility, may have undiagnosed autism, and therefore need help".

 

The OP did not at any point say anything to suggest that this child is autistic. It is not appropriate to jump in with that suggestion. It is ableist.

[Rosie_0801]

12 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

The OP did not at any point say anything to suggest that this child is autistic. It is not appropriate to jump in with that suggestion. It is ableist.

It seems to be a bit of a thing on these boards in recent months. Child displays an unwanted behaviour! Must be autistic!

[bookbard]

42 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

The OP did not at any point say anything to suggest that this child is autistic. It is not appropriate to jump in with that suggestion. It is ableist.

I'll leave it there, although as a special educator with 20 years experience in the field, I find that occasionally I am able to offer suggestions which can assist families in seeking out help (which is what I thought the OP was looking for). I wouldn't have a clue if the child has autism, but it's something I suggest parents look into when seeking help for a child who demonstrates cognitive inflexibility. 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, bookbard said:

I'll leave it there, although as a special educator with 20 years experience in the field, I find that occasionally I am able to offer suggestions which can assist families in seeking out help (which is what I thought the OP was looking for). I wouldn't have a clue if the child has autism, but it's something I suggest parents look into when seeking help for a child who demonstrates cognitive inflexibility. 

It's hard. Sometimes the best advice is the advice that makes people the most defensive. I know that was the case when people were giving me advice about my own difficult situations  -- I didn't want to hear the hard stuff, only the stuff that made me feel better about myself. 

Hopefully the OP will reach out to you if your idea turns out to have merit. I think you're right to drop it. 

[Tanaqui]

But you have no reason to think that he "displays cognitive inflexibility", and this rhetoric that autistics are somehow more prone to extremism or acts of mass violence - something we hear over and over again despite the utter lack of evidence to support this claim - is actually harmful to autistic people.

So maybe don't do that. At least wait until the OP says something, anything, that might indicate that your special insight is specially useful and appreciated.

[kiwik]

17 hours ago, ktgrok said:

This. So much this. 

heck, if at all financially possilbe I'd be pulling the kid out of school for a few months and have at least one parent go do a trip with him. 

Yes.  If possible a several month road trip would be a good thing.  Maybe the parents could take turns.  But it may be impossible. Here 2 parents would have 10 weeks paid annual leave between them but the boys parents might not.

[kiwik]

6 hours ago, bookbard said:

I'll leave it there, although as a special educator with 20 years experience in the field, I find that occasionally I am able to offer suggestions which can assist families in seeking out help (which is what I thought the OP was looking for). I wouldn't have a clue if the child has autism, but it's something I suggest parents look into when seeking help for a child who demonstrates cognitive inflexibility. 

I would assume some sort of assessment would be part of what they do.  It is a good idea to rule out anything that may be causing them to feel alienated.  An undiagnosed issue could make that worse as could depression, thyroid problems and another of other things. But even if there were something it is not goingto cause the issues to disappear.

Edited October 23, 2022 by kiwik

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

But you have no reason to think that he "displays cognitive inflexibility", and this rhetoric that autistics are somehow more prone to extremism or acts of mass violence - something we hear over and over again despite the utter lack of evidence to support this claim - is actually harmful to autistic people.

So maybe don't do that. At least wait until the OP says something, anything, that might indicate that your special insight is specially useful and appreciated.

“Everything he says is offensive in someway and he is 100% adamant that he is right and any evidence that you show him that is contrary, he says is a government lie and put out by ignorant people who don't know the truth. “

 

This is what says cognitive inflexibility to me, although obviously it may not be linked to autism at all and more to the brainwashing/conspiracy theory mindset 

[Heartstrings]

On 10/22/2022 at 2:50 AM, TravelingChris said:

I am going to second getting all weapons out of the house.  Also, this perspective may be helpful. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes

Oh my goodness, I hadn’t thought about weapon!   So much this, every single one needs to go somewhere the child doesn’t know about.  

[Heartstrings]

20 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

re: wilderness camp, rehab boarding school:

If the parents go this route, they must be *very careful* to do their research beforehand. A lot of those places are really just abuse factories. Sometimes that's the whole model, other times it's more an effect of the fact that the staff is inadequately trained and there isn't a high enough staff:student ratio, but you don't want to think you're sending your child to get help but actually you're sending them to Tranquility Bay or someplace worse.

And stay away from “boot camp” style ones, away from wilderness ones and for the love DO NOT let them kidnap the child. 

[HomeAgain]

I may have missed this if it was mentioned, but I have found a lot of these sites and avenues put their emphasis on mental gymnastics.  I'd start equipping this kid with specific tools: learning how to define logical fallacies, understanding how to determine valid sources, learning to ask the quiet questions around the material...

If a kid is in the same position whether he has the internet or not, then as soon as he has access he will fall into the same traps.  Learning that he has to defend/analyze the crap that he's spouting and think about where it's coming from might help him slowly internalize these tools as an adult.