Teachers? Parents? Does anyone have advice for my daughter? UPDATE

[QueenCat]

14 hours ago, Amethyst said:

Take away recess. Have lunch in the principal's office. But she says they emphasize "recognize the good behaviors". Kids can earn "mascot money" (I'm changing the name of the actual mascot). She has rules in place. She has been doing this for a couple of years, and has had to deal with some behavior problems of course, but this seems extreme

Kids NEED recess. Many schools no longer allow recess to be removed as a punishment. What we did in two schools I worked at was have the child walk laps instead of play on the playground. That way they could still get their energy out, which is a necessity. 

[HomeAgain]

16 hours ago, Amethyst said:

Take away recess. Have lunch in the principal's office. But she says they emphasize "recognize the good behaviors". Kids can earn "mascot money" (I'm changing the name of the actual mascot). She has rules in place. She has been doing this for a couple of years, and has had to deal with some behavior problems of course, but this seems extreme

I will say that this strategy would have sent my oldest child through the roof. He'd make a mistake, be punished, and give up on ever trying to get a reward.  It was unsustainable for him and he'd live in a cycle of starting a week well and ending it with a WTF attitude.  He's my kid that taught me that in order to be effective, I really had to cultivate the behavior I was looking for. 

For your dd, I'd stress the same.  Call on this child.  Praise effort.  Encourage connection to peers with appropriate sharing and spotlight time.  Spend a few minutes every day working on a social skill of the week as a lesson, and praising the examples set during the day.  Get more positive movement in to the day: more opportunities to be out of the seat to pass out papers, grab a marker from the blackboard as she works with the group in the back, whatever.  Reinforce the rules firmly and require bad behavior to be met with a redo of good behavior.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I am very uncomfortable with the idea that a five/ six? year old is a "bad" kid.  Even attention seeking behaviors have a root need that they are trying to fill. 

[Kassia]

2 hours ago, QueenCat said:

Kids NEED recess. Many schools no longer allow recess to be removed as a punishment. What we did in two schools I worked at was have the child walk laps instead of play on the playground. That way they could still get their energy out, which is a necessity. 

I agree that kids need recess - but they need it for their body and mind, so I disagree with having the kids walk laps.  Another consequence would be okay but removing recess in any form shouldn't be considered.  And I also agree with @Jean in Newcastle about any children actually being "bad" but that doesn't make the behavior any easier to deal with.  

[Insertcreativenamehere]

It sounds like a difficult situation but taking away recess would be the last thing I would do, too. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

44 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I am very uncomfortable with the idea that a five/ six? year old is a "bad" kid.  Even attention seeking behaviors have a root need that they are trying to fill. 

Quoting myself to say that my main point was finding the root need.  Taking away recess doesn't meet a root need.  Boundaries can meet a root need.  But if he's not able to express himself etc. then the other suggestions I (and others) had for social skills modeling and scripts meets that need better. 

Of course the difficulty in a classroom is that multiple kids have needs.  But I think that most young children share needs even if the need might be more intense in some kids.  So social skills modeling will help other children as well. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Jean in Newcastle

[TheReader]

I keep coming to this, writing long things, and deleting them.....the basic thing is this: Yes, your dd has a number of years of experience teaching, but zero years of experience teaching First Graders. Don't discount that; 1st Grade is a very very very different thing than 4th Grade.  Fourth graders have had 4 years already, before that, of learning what classroom behavior looks like.  First graders have had one year, and that was a post-covid year. 

Developmentally, as far as what motivates them to good/correct behavior, they are very very very different as well. What works great in 4th grade may not be appropriate for 1st grade. 

I have a million thoughts on this, but keep feeling like 1 - an imposter (I "only" teach at a once/week homeschool co-op, so though I'm on my 5th year there, and subbed elementary in public schools for a year, 25 yrs ago, and of course raised my kiddos....it's not the same as public school, every day, all day).  Also, 2 - I keep feeling like I'm talking down to your dd, so I delete what I'm going to post. So, I'll skip all of the specifics, and leave it at this: 1st grade takes a LOT more repetition than one can possibly imagine. I literally review the expectations/rules at *every* transition.  This takes a few seconds, but makes such a difference. An easily repeatable phrase for each thing is good, too. So, when doing seat work:  "Remember, this is doing time, not talking time"   When lining up to go somewhere, "no talking, just walking".   Etc. 

I have developed LOTS of tricks that mostly work well. This year I have one class that is just....chatty beyond belief....last week I pulled out an emergency clown nose, popped it on, and taught math that way. Quietest 30 mins of the day, that (after the 2 mins of laughter). 

Anyway, if she or you would like to hear in more detail the various things I do that work, I'm more than happy to chat, but like I said, I keep feeling like I'm saying too much/being too simple/talking down/etc. so I'll leave it at this for now.  The difficult situation aside, it does sound like she needs to tweak her classroom management to a much more proactive approach, as is needed for 1st graders. It's a rough transition, but will pay dividends once she gets it down.  And I do hope the school starts offering some real support for this child and your dd; that does sound really rough. 

[QueenCat]

1 hour ago, Kassia said:

I agree that kids need recess - but they need it for their body and mind, so I disagree with having the kids walk laps.  Another consequence would be okay but removing recess in any form shouldn't be considered.  And I also agree with @Jean in Newcastle about any children actually being "bad" but that doesn't make the behavior any easier to deal with.  

I was simply explaining how it worked at these particular schools. 

[Kassia]

29 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

I was simply explaining how it worked at these particular schools. 

I hope it didn't seem like I was correcting you!  If so, I apologize and I can edit my comment if you like.  I also know a lot of schools have students walk laps as punishment for things like not having homework completed.  I hate when recess is used as punishment because I feel like it's necessary for students - just like bathroom breaks and lunch!  

[lmrich]

I think it is time (past time) to  get an emergency meeting of parents, counselors, etc.. 

It is also time the kid gets expelled for the behaviors. 

I had a kid my first year teaching, who on  the second day of second grade, ran into my room kicked the table and then got under it and overturned it. He was uncontrollable and was actualy put in a psych ward for a 24 hour hold. It was not until the very last week of school that he got placement into a special class. No one felt safe in that class if he was present. I cried one morning going to work. Looking back now, I wish I had put my foot down and been really loud insisting that something was done. It was not ok for him to be denied help; it was not ok for the other students; it was not ok for me, either. Everyone was hurt. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

39 minutes ago, lmrich said:

I think it is time (past time) to  get an emergency meeting of parents, counselors, etc.. 

It is also time the kid gets expelled for the behaviors. 

I had a kid my first year teaching, who on  the second day of second grade, ran into my room kicked the table and then got under it and overturned it. He was uncontrollable and was actualy put in a psych ward for a 24 hour hold. It was not until the very last week of school that he got placement into a special class. No one felt safe in that class if he was present. I cried one morning going to work. Looking back now, I wish I had put my foot down and been really loud insisting that something was done. It was not ok for him to be denied help; it was not ok for the other students; it was not ok for me, either. Everyone was hurt. 

The child in question is throwing pencils and the occasional water bottle . It’s hardly in the same sphere as flipping tables. 

[lmrich]

40 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The child in question is throwing pencils and the occasional water bottle . It’s hardly in the same sphere as flipping tables. 

True. 

[Hilltopmom]

44 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The child in question is throwing pencils and the occasional water bottle . It’s hardly in the same sphere as flipping tables. 

Possibly- but my daughter was hit in the head by a water bottle thrown by a student last year and still has some post concussion issues. She has missed work, needed specialist care, had to do workman’s comp, etc- flying water bottles are not ok. Kids bring those metal ones these days that pack a wallop. (The one she got a concussion from was plastic though)

Edited October 6, 2022 by Hilltopmom

[bookbard]

I don't know if it's possible, but if the child was no problem at all in the K class with the K teacher, they need to consider moving the child there for a bit while your daughter gets the rest of the class organised. Then moving the child back up once a few things are in place, beginning with a few hours and then extending the time. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

51 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

Possibly- but my daughter was hit in the head by a water bottle thrown by a student last year and still has some post concussion issues. She has missed work, needed specialist care, had to do workman’s comp, etc- flying water bottles are not ok. Kids bring those metal ones these days that pack a wallop. (The one she got a concussion from was plastic though)

It is not that hard for a teacher to not allow water bottles - metal or plastic - outside of certain times like lunch. 

[math teacher]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

It is not that hard for a teacher to not allow water bottles - metal or plastic - outside of certain times like lunch. 

I only allow water bottles at desks for about an hour after recess. If my students were being violent with them, I wouldn't allow them at desks at all. 

[Wishes]

Good suggestions so far. I would add a sensory box. Help him identify before he explodes (or make a guess when hw will) and offer him the sensory box in a quiet corner 

[Hilltopmom]

8 hours ago, math teacher said:

I only allow water bottles at desks for about an hour after recess. If my students were being violent with them, I wouldn't allow them at desks at all. 

Some schools require access to water bottles at all times. Regardless, ime- kids who throw them will just throw something else within reach if the bottle is not on the desk. This problem is obviously not about the water bottle itself.

OP- best of luck to your Dd. All of the suggestions given are things her school and counselor should already be implementing (calm down spaces, teaching social skills, etc) & I’d be very concerned if they are not.  They are not brand new or ground breaking. Trauma informed classrooms and schools techniques are common, hoping they are doing them. She will have many more students like this in her career. 
But for some students- all of those techniques are not enough and the teacher cannot do them alone.

 

[DawnM]

On 10/5/2022 at 8:45 PM, Amethyst said:

Take away recess. Have lunch in the principal's office. But she says they emphasize "recognize the good behaviors". Kids can earn "mascot money" (I'm changing the name of the actual mascot). She has rules in place. She has been doing this for a couple of years, and has had to deal with some behavior problems of course, but this seems extreme

Things are more extreme than ever.   It has been out of control since Covid for sure.   I am sorry she is going through this.   And I am sorry for the child who can't seem to control himself.   It is quite possible he needs serious interventions, like medication, to truly get the help he needs.   

I know that for our 4 year old, who has the emotional regulation of a 2 year old, no normal disciplinary measures worked.   His brain is just wired completely differently because of all the trauma he has endured.   Medication is helping.

This is not aimed at your daughter because it is the standard in discipline in Elem. schools, but going to recess might help this child get some energy out and allow him to reset.   Taking recess may also make him more resentful through the rest of the day.   

Has the child talked to the school counselor?   Maybe there are some strategies the counselor can work through with your daughter and the child. Maybe the counselor can sit the child down and find out some of the root of the issue.   Maybe the counselor can refer the child to therapy.

I will say that children like these are part of the reason teachers are just done with this profession.

[HomeAgain]

One more thought - or, two, rather.

The first - in absence of a diagnosis, treat with the same response as you would with the diagnosis.  If a child has trouble reading, you don't wait for the dyslexia label to provide intervention.  You meet the need as best you can until the diagnosis.  Same with behavior - you work on just meeting the need the behavior is masking.

The second - 4th grade classroom behavior is different from first, and the teacher may not realize that their own behavior should match the activity level of the kids.  When I was in a first grade classroom last year, I literally spent my time moving around the room as much as possible.  I was always near a kid, always touching base with them individually as classwork was being done.  It's less effective to be at the front of the room at this age (stage-audience procedure) than it is to be moving (group-individual). 

At the end of the year I took a video of the kids in their group performance with the rest of the first grade.  I hadn't realized that these kids were different from their peers because....well, I always work with kids who don't fit into boxes and we just make do.   But I showed the video to dh and asked him to figure out which class I had been in all year.  There were two groups of children standing in straight lines and moving in synchronized rhythms, and one group where one child was turning like an airplane, several were very unsynchronized, and nobody was in anything that could be called a line.  TBH, I didn't know the other two classes were a possibility at this age. 😂  I just adjusted to what was in the classroom.  I knew one had trauma, several had never been to school, one was likely autistic, one probably will be diagnosed with adhd in the next few years, social and fine motor skills were lagging...and it didn't matter.  You just work with what you have in front of you, starting at the beginning and slowly working to increase capabilities.

[City Mouse]

In all honesty, there is no quick fix. She will be dealing with this issue all year. I almost hate to say “stuck”, but she is stuck with the situation. Probably nothing will change until the child throws something and hurts another child. If enough of the other parents complain the administration might do something different. 

As far as the one child influencing the behavior of the other students, has she tried tangible rewards for them all. I had a rough year early on in my teaching career, and made it through by over-the-top praise and rewards for the other students. Nothing changed regarding the disruptive student that year, but it made things easier for me with the others. We got into a mode of thinking “that is just how xx is” and ignoring as much of his behavior as possible. In my case, the student was finally qualified for SPED services at the end of the following year. Even in a very large district with lots of resources, it was/is very hard to get a student qualified “just” on behavior. 

[Anne]

On 10/5/2022 at 7:05 PM, TechWife said:

No way in the world would I authorize release of a kids' therapy records to a school. Generally speaking, the school would have no idea what to do with the information if they had it. Way too general. The only thing I would agree to is a release of standardized testing results and recommended accommodations & interventions. That is it.  And only if they were released to a trained, qualified person in the school system, not just anyone who works there. The tendency to turn mental/behavioral health problems into disciplinary action or to outright criminalize mental/behavioral health problems is way too prevalent in our schools and in our culture at large.

 

I don’t disagree with you, but it seems to me that there ought to be some process to bring in the knowledge of this student’s issues.  If this kind of behavior continues, the consequences to the whole class, as well as this student, could be really bad.

Anne

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, Anne said:

I don’t disagree with you, but it seems to me that there ought to be some process to bring in the knowledge of this student’s issues.  If this kind of behavior continues, the consequences to the whole class, as well as this student, could be really bad.

Anne

And there is a way to do that without releasing mental health records. No one has a right to know that much about someone’s mental health care. Our mental health care system is too fragile and too intertwined with the legal system and schools are without qualified people working there that could even grasp the meaning of much that is in those records. Once those records get outside the medical system, there are no privacy protections. Having that information with the school has the potential to compromise the students safety and course of treatment. Just, no. 

[purpleowl]

Does this child have anything he's particularly interested in? Can she ask him what his favorite thing in the world is, and then when he's starting to feel dysregulated, ask him to tell her one new bit of info about that favorite thing?

Is he really curious about anything? We recently helped my 8yo come out of a meltdown (over an issue related to a stuffed animal) by explaining a new math concept to him. It's not simply distraction (a different stuffed animal would not have helped at all), but a chance for his brain to think about something he WANTS to understand. And it can help him "reset," giving time for him to process in the background whatever it was that was upsetting so that after a bit he can respond to it in a more measured way.

(My son is autistic, and I obviously have no idea whether this kid is. But either way, this sort of approach might be worth a shot.)

[Ting Tang]

On 10/5/2022 at 5:47 PM, Amethyst said:

My dd25 is not brand new to teaching. She taught virtually in 2020, then 4th grade in a small city for one year. Then 4th grade in a suburb of DC for one year. She is back living at home now, and we were very excited that she finally got a job in our school district which is the best school district around for many many miles.

But she’s teaching first grade. 

AND she has a very problematic child in her class. I think this child makes the whole class unruly. She has spoken with the parents (who explained the child was traumatized from their divorce, he is seeing a therapist, and diagnosed with anxiety and depression). She has spoken to/cried to the principal (it’s the principal’s first year in an elementary school; previously in middle school). 

DD is at her wit’s end. No one in the class listens, but the one child throws things (pencils especially but also water bottles or whatever is handy) and occasionally hits classmates with the flying objects, has punched a girl in the eye, has kicked a boy in the back, tells my daughter how much he hates her. 

It all sounds so very miserable. I feel for my daughter, but I’m very concerned that a child will get seriously hurt. Principal has been sitting in dd’s class since she became aware of the problem for hours for the past week. Principal has also yelled at the class. Nothing is working. They are slightly better when principal is there, but if she leaves the room, pencils start flying! It’s just not sustainable for the principal to stay there indefinitely. 

Principal and counseling office have suggested strategies. They’re not working. DD feels like they have to do these strategies to show they tried everything before he can be tested for spec ed or emotional support or whatever the poor kid needs. That can’t be true? Can it??

I am very concerned that a child will get seriously hurt. 

Any strategies for control, or advice for handling these behavior issues in a class?

I'm very sorry.  I have two sister-in-laws who are teachers in elementary schools.  One was physically assaulted, and they thought she had a serious ankle injury.  Someone may very well become injured.  I wish I had advice. Maybe something here will work.  It's sad what the child has been through, but nobody else should have to pay the price, too.  Is there a process by which a child can be physically removed from a classroom?

Edited October 8, 2022 by Ting Tang

[Hilltopmom]

We don’t physically remove children from a room anymore- we evacuate the other children (hopefully to a place like the library where their lesson can continue).

Crisis and restraint training teaches this because it’s safer for all involved. We try to only restrain or put hands on a child who is putting themselves in or someone who can’t get away in immediate danger (banging their head against the wall, attacking someone, running into a busy road, etc). 

 

[Ting Tang]

13 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

We don’t physically remove children from a room anymore- we evacuate the other children (hopefully to a place like the library where their lesson can continue).

Crisis and restraint training teaches this because it’s safer for all involved. We try to only restrain or put hands on a child who is putting themselves in or someone who can’t get away in immediate danger (banging their head against the wall, attacking someone, running into a busy road, etc). 

 

I see what you are saying. I just feel bad for teachers these days.  They really are expected to be everything, and that is really hard when a child has been torn apart emotionally.  I just don't think others should be collateral damage if things turn violent.  Are these teachers receiving this type of training?  I honestly do not know.

[Hilltopmom]

In my district, any teacher who wants to be crisis trained can be. Other places you call the crisis team to talk a kid down/ restrain if needed.
The classroom teacher would remain with the rest of the kids or leave the room with them. The crisis team is typically made of all counseling staff, admin, some sped teachers… we don’t all respond to every crisis, just whoever is able (we carry walkie-talkies).

[Ting Tang]

10 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

In my district, any teacher who wants to be crisis trained can be. Other places you call the crisis team to talk a kid down/ restrain if needed.
The classroom teacher would remain with the rest of the kids or leave the room with them. The crisis team is typically made of all counseling staff, admin, some sped teachers… we don’t all respond to every crisis, just whoever is able (we carry walkie-talkies).

Thank you.  I am going to ask my SIL about this at her school and how they handle these scenarios.  She is in her late 30s with a lot of teaching experience.  It was a little shocking to hear what happened to her.  She has also said it is very apparent that the pandemic has also affected children, which is not surprising, since it has affected us all.  

[mom2samlibby]

On 10/6/2022 at 5:30 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

The child in question is throwing pencils and the occasional water bottle . It’s hardly in the same sphere as flipping tables. 

I have a friend whose daughter almost lost an eye because her son threw a pencil and it hit the eyeball. I think she had to get stitches. It was pretty bad.

I would say that throwing pencils can be dangerous. I would absolutely catagorize them in the same catagory. 

[Heartstrings]

6 hours ago, Hilltopmom said:

We don’t physically remove children from a room anymore- we evacuate the other children (hopefully to a place like the library where their lesson can continue).

Crisis and restraint training teaches this because it’s safer for all involved. We try to only restrain or put hands on a child who is putting themselves in or someone who can’t get away in immediate danger (banging their head against the wall, attacking someone, running into a busy road, etc). 

 

This might be a thing that varies by district or state.  I’m close to a child who gets restrained and isolated frequently in public school.    It’s heartbreaking. 

[rebcoola]

5 hours ago, mom2samlibby said:

I have a friend whose daughter almost lost an eye because her son threw a pencil and it hit the eyeball. I think she had to get stitches. It was pretty bad.

I would say that throwing pencils can be dangerous. I would absolutely catagorize them in the same catagory. 

Definitely dangerous in first grade a kid threw a pencil and it got stuck in my leg.  Obviously not a super serious injury but not fun and I have a scar still.

[kiwik]

My kid with ASD got expelled for less than that. But I think I would try keeping the child beside me and gainfully occupied at all times.

[Hilltopmom]

5 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

This might be a thing that varies by district or state.  I’m close to a child who gets restrained and isolated frequently in public school.    It’s heartbreaking. 

Definitely varies by area. I’m not saying we don’t restrain- we do for sure only when necessary. But we don’t remove a child from a room unless absolutely necessary. My Dd works in a behavior room where students are restrained daily. 
 

[Pippen]

On 10/5/2022 at 9:54 PM, TechWife said:

Interventions and accommodations  can and do happen before the IEP is put in place (which can take literally weeks/month or more).  They can also happen before any testing or evaluations are initiated or completed.  Honestly, it's something the schools don't like to talk about - it's work and sometimes expense. The school or district should have an IEP coordinator - usually a counselor or a sp. ed. teacher. I recommend that your daughter talk to the principal about engaging this person in this case. Alternatively, your daughter could start treating this like a disciplinary issue, which is stinky, by the way, for first graders, their teachers, parents & schools. Kids throwing things in classrooms simply isn't safe for the student that's acting out, the other students or the teacher. Some things really do put eyes out, KWIM?

FWIW, about ten years ago I had a friend who taught middle school and nothing was happening w/regards to testing, IEP, etc. for a particular student that was acting out in class. No matter what my friend did or who she talked to, no one was prioritizing the need. Things changed was when she went to the principal and used the words "I do not feel safe in my classroom." Suddenly, wheels began turning and interventions & accommodations appeared out of the woodwork. Teacher safety was a hot button issue at that time. It wasn't my friend's intent to get the wheels to turn at that point - she was simply beginning to document a need for a transfer because she wasn't willing to continually risk personal injury.

A classroom aide can definitely be assigned even if students don't have IEPs.  

If the student was doing better in kindergarten, I suggest that your dd not only consult with the teacher, but also spend a day observing in her classroom.

[freesia]

Aides can be assigned before the IEP sure. However, in my experience, when I taught first grade and had a child like that, the administration resisted it because the parent was resisting testing and an IEP. The IEP means there is money available for the aid. If the school provides all the supports without the IEP, the denial of the parent continues and the other children with an IEP loose out because they have to share their aid. I feel for your dd. I was in my seventh year—an established teacher with strong classroom management skills. My experience with that child burned came out completely and I almost left teaching. 

[Amethyst]

On 10/6/2022 at 11:19 AM, QueenCat said:

Kids NEED recess. Many schools no longer allow recess to be removed as a punishment. What we did in two schools I worked at was have the child walk laps instead of play on the playground. That way they could still get their energy out, which is a necessity. 

Yes, her last school did not allow recess to be taken away. This one seems to allow it, I don’t think she’s actually used that though because her training suggests the more positive approaches that have been suggested here 

[Amethyst]

On 10/6/2022 at 1:26 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

I am very uncomfortable with the idea that a five/ six? year old is a "bad" kid.  Even attention seeking behaviors have a root need that they are trying to fill. 

I never called him a bad kid. Did someone here? I must have missed that. Problematic is the word I used in my initial post. There is a problem, for many people, mostly the child himself, about whom I expressed sympathy. Maybe you just said this as a caution? 

[Amethyst]

On 10/6/2022 at 2:14 PM, TheReader said: Yes, your dd has a number of years of experience teaching, but zero years of experience teaching First Graders. Don't discount that; 1st Grade is a very very very different thing than 4th Grade.  Fourth graders have had 4 years already, before that, of learning what classroom behavior looks like.  First graders have had one year, and that was a post-covid year. 

Oh I 100% agree with this! In fact, I was verrry ambivalent about her taking this job for only that reason. They are a world of difference! 

[Amethyst]

On 10/7/2022 at 6:06 AM, Hilltopmom said:

Some schools require access to water bottles at all times. Regardless, ime- kids who throw them will just throw something else within reach if the bottle is not on the desk. This problem is obviously not about the water bottle itself.

OP- best of luck to your Dd. All of the suggestions given are things her school and counselor should already be implementing (calm down spaces, teaching social skills, etc) & I’d be very concerned if they are not.  They are not brand new or ground breaking. Trauma informed classrooms and schools techniques are common, hoping they are doing them. She will have many more students like this in her career. 
But for some students- all of those techniques are not enough and the teacher cannot do them alone.

 

Yes, dd ahs talked with principal and counselor and dd’s attitude is “I know all these things. I’ve tried many of them, I’ll try more, but I can tell that they are not going to work with this particular child”. Not the best attitude on dd’s part perhaps, but she is at her wit’s end. 
 

This particular school district does something (according to dd) that I’ve never heard. There are 3 elementary schools in the district. Dd says that all the spec ed kids go to the same elementary school, even if it’s not their normal school. My initial reaction (after:Can they do that?) was well, that might make your job easier (since they go to a school other than hers). But I think this child has never been evaluated since he’s so young. Sigh. Just an all-around bad situation. 

[TechWife]

32 minutes ago, Amethyst said:

Yes, dd ahs talked with principal and counselor and dd’s attitude is “I know all these things. I’ve tried many of them, I’ll try more, but I can tell that they are not going to work with this particular child”. Not the best attitude on dd’s part perhaps, but she is at her wit’s end. 
 

This particular school district does something (according to dd) that I’ve never heard. There are 3 elementary schools in the district. Dd says that all the spec ed kids go to the same elementary school, even if it’s not their normal school. My initial reaction (after:Can they do that?) was well, that might make your job easier (since they go to a school other than hers). But I think this child has never been evaluated since he’s so young. Sigh. Just an all-around bad situation. 

I’m not sure of the legality of them sending all kids w/special needs to the same school. The rule of thumb is that they are entitled to a developmentally appropriate education in the least restrictive environment. However, schools are allowed to take budgetary needs into account. In small school districts like that, it might be the best way to do it. In a larger district where it would result in complete segregation due to the population size, I don’t think it would be legal. It’s probably one of those grey areas, and one that could easily be abused by the school system, so it’s worth watching closely. 

[wendyroo]

22 minutes ago, Amethyst said:

Yes, dd ahs talked with principal and counselor and dd’s attitude is “I know all these things. I’ve tried many of them, I’ll try more, but I can tell that they are not going to work with this particular child”. Not the best attitude on dd’s part perhaps, but she is at her wit’s end. 
 

This particular school district does something (according to dd) that I’ve never heard. There are 3 elementary schools in the district. Dd says that all the spec ed kids go to the same elementary school, even if it’s not their normal school. My initial reaction (after:Can they do that?) was well, that might make your job easier (since they go to a school other than hers). But I think this child has never been evaluated since he’s so young. Sigh. Just an all-around bad situation. 

In our district, most of the elementary schools only have resource support, not special ed. There are 11 elementary schools. Two house special gifted and talented classes, two house special emotional regulation classes and two house special autism classes. I don't know exactly how many have "generic" special ed classes (as opposed to emotional regulation or autism), but I know my son's building last year did not. If a student is eligible for one of the special classes that is not offered in their local school, then busing is provided.

On one hand, this seems highly efficient and practical. The emotional regulation class was exactly what my son needed last year, but there were only six kids in his class, drawn from five elementary schools, so clearly not every school needs to or can afford to house its own emotional regulation room. On the other hand, it limits flexibility. There was no way for my son to be in the gifted class, which would have been the best academic fit, while also receiving the emotional support he needed and getting the social coaching he would have benefited from in the autism class. By specializing, and dividing those classes up among the schools, they made it very hard for 2e kids who were differently special along different axes and needed multiple types of special support.

[Amethyst]

8 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I’m not sure of the legality of them sending all kids w/special needs to the same school. The rule of thumb is that they are entitled to a developmentally appropriate education in the least restrictive environment. However, schools are allowed to take budgetary needs into account. In small school districts like that, it might be the best way to do it. In a larger district where it would result in complete segregation due to the population size, I don’t think it would be legal. It’s probably one of those grey areas, and one that could easily be abused by the school system, so it’s worth watching closely. 

I wondered if it was legal too. But what do I know? 🤷🏼‍♀️ 

To be clear, the elementary school where they all go to is mostly non-SPED students. Vast majority non-SPED. 

[TechWife]

2 minutes ago, Amethyst said:

I wondered if it was legal too. But what do I know? 🤷🏼‍♀️ 

To be clear, the elementary school where they all go to is mostly non-SPED students. Vast majority non-SPED. 

And that’s what might make it a workable, legal solution. The kids who do needs supports in some areas but not others still have the opportunity to go to the most appropriate setting for each situation. In a district the size of the one I live in, they could fill an entire school, maybe more, with SPED students. If they did that, kids who needed SPED for one subject but not another would just be unable to get the regular class. I think that would be illegal, because it isn’t appropriate and it isn’t least restrictive. Kids who need aides for behavioral reasons might be successful in traditional classroom with that support, so not allowing them to be in a traditional classroom would be overly restrictive. 

[Bootsie]

Do you happen to know how students are placed in classes with particular teachers.  Is it totally random?  Is it based upon a recommendation by a kindergarten teacher?  Do they move through as a cohort?  Can parents make requests?  One of my sisters had a horrible first grade experience.  The school allowed parents to voice opinions/requests.  Parents who had older siblings who liked a teacher would request the same teacher.  Involved parents would request teachers that were considered the best.  No one ever requested the new, unknown teacher.  Teachers could also request students that would like to have in their class.  My parents had a moral objection to these types of requests, so did not request a teacher for my sister.   My sister got in the new teacher's class; to this day she loves that teacher but will talk about how horrible the classroom situation was.  All of the students who the other teachers said, "Please do not put X in my room" got placed in the same classroom.  All of the students who had not been to kindergarten got put in that class.  All of the students who were experiencing moves and the disruptions that brings, were placed in the same class.

I do find it a bit curious that the behavior of the students is so different when the principal is in the room but changes the moment the principal leaves.  It surprises me that first graders are that much more intimidated by the presence of a principal than simply an adult.  That really seems to suggest something more is going on with the dynamics in the classroom than one child who has behavior regulation issues or other special needs  

[katilac]

3 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I do find it a bit curious that the behavior of the students is so different when the principal is in the room but changes the moment the principal leaves.  It surprises me that first graders are that much more intimidated by the presence of a principal than simply an adult.  That really seems to suggest something more is going on with the dynamics in the classroom than one child who has behavior regulation issues or other special needs  

Whereas I think it's pretty typical for first graders to be highly aware of the principal as The Big Boss. They've had a year of kindergarten, many of them will have older siblings, so most of them are going to be quite aware of things like being sent to the office, the principal calling your parents, and so on. 

When I worked in a Montessori school, even the preK kids were very aware that the headmistress was on a completely different level than their teachers.  They were definitely on their best behavior whenever she was in the room for any reason, and they knew that her getting involved in classroom behavior issues was a big deal. 

[purpleowl]

12 hours ago, Amethyst said:

Yes, dd ahs talked with principal and counselor and dd’s attitude is “I know all these things. I’ve tried many of them, I’ll try more, but I can tell that they are not going to work with this particular child”. Not the best attitude on dd’s part perhaps, but she is at her wit’s end. 

I thought you started this thread because your DD was interested in ideas for strategies to try. This sounds like your DD has given up on this child. 

[Hilltopmom]

My last thought on this I think- is your Dd in Facebook groups for teachers (specifically 1st grade teachers and/or inclusion/behavior teachers?). She would find lots of support and ideas there from others currently living these issues. 

[happi duck]

I always made sure my students knew that rules are there to keep us safe and make it a good space for learning.

Is one of her rules "follow directions"?  I only ever had a few rules and this was the most important.  It's also easy and fun to practice!

Since "pencils flying" seems a big problem I'd work on that.  Math lesson and practice together on board, hand out independent practice sheet, explain directions for pencils before handing out pencils.  Kid who throws a pencil gets handed a crayon.  Kid who throws crayon gets the page sent home with an explanation why it needs to be finished at home.  While other kids do practice page the kid(s) who threw pencil *and* crayon work with teacher doing the writing (on a whiteboard or separate page.  I'd leave the other to be completed at home)

This is all conducted with an unbothered attitude.  *Gently picks up thrown pencil and sets a crayon on the kid's desk* *unbothered*

Just my two cents!

Edited October 10, 2022 by happi duck

[happi duck]

Thanks for updating us!