Things people say that rub you wrong?

[Ann.without.an.e]

15 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

The problem with the post isn’t the specific word or words being discussed. 

I wasn’t referring to any one post, just rambling about all of the ma’am stuff 😂 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Ann.without.an.e]

7 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I wasn’t referring to any one post, just rambling about all of the ma’am stuff 😂 

The truth is, I don’t know how to respond to her post. I want to and I have a lot I’d like to say but it made me so deeply angry that I’ve been biting my tongue. 
 

@Tanaqui said some great things but I’m holding back a lot more things 😂

[LuvToRead]

"reached out"  So and so reached out to me.  I think it rubs me the wrong way because the people IRL who say this generally couple it with name dropping.  The mayor/president/someone super duper important reached out to me, when in fact that someone spent 10 seconds sending you a text asking for a favor.  I know some people don't use it this way, but this is just my personal experience and this term just drives me nuts!!!

 

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

Surely that's true for ALL rules of manners? I mean, people who are raised to think that it's rude aren't told as children (usually) that actually in SOME places it's polite, are they? People who are raised to think that "fashionably late" is SOP aren't told as children that in some other places it's only polite to arrive right on the dot, and in a few places it's polite to arrive early and if you're on time, you're late.

I get that you feel that the manners rules you grew up with and prefer are objectively superior, but that doesn't mean that other people are doing their kids a disservice by teaching them the manners THEY know and that are useful where THEY are.

And since we're talking about manners, let me be very blunt: I find the entire tenor of your comment to be shockingly bad manners and rude.

Exactly. And if someone is operating on their regional manners and will never leave that area, it’s not really practical for them to stop on the off chance that someone from Maine is going to drop in at the grocery store where they scan groceries.

there are massive numbers of people who never leave their area of origin. Be kind. Be as polite as you know how. And why get too worked up because the sweet girl at Burger King (who’s never been out of the county) said “thank you ma’am” when she handed you your change.

(I know gobs of people who have never lived out of the county where they were born.)

Not everyone moves all over the world and why should someone care if an Arizona native thinks their ma’am is rude if they’ve never moved out of the same area their whole life and it’s common politeness there?

[HS Mom in NC]

29 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Surely that's true for ALL rules of manners? I mean, people who are raised to think that it's rude aren't told as children (usually) that actually in SOME places it's polite, are they? People who are raised to think that "fashionably late" is SOP aren't told as children that in some other places it's only polite to arrive right on the dot, and in a few places it's polite to arrive early and if you're on time, you're late.

I get that you feel that the manners rules you grew up with and prefer are objectively superior, but that doesn't mean that other people are doing their kids a disservice by teaching them the manners THEY know and that are useful where THEY are.

And since we're talking about manners, let me be very blunt: I find the entire tenor of your comment to be shockingly bad manners and rude.

I didn't say they shouldn't teach them at all, I said they should explain to their kids that they're not universal.  I don't correct people around me even though they are being, by my standards, rude because I understand the principle-manners are subcultural.  I was taught that they were from a young age.

I grew up hearing manners rules prefaced with, "Here it's polite to ______________ instead of __________. It's different other places." I assume growing up in transplant culture like I was, it was more common to be taught an awareness of differences.  Growing up in cosmopolitan areas (large population, different subcultures) creates awareness too.

I knew at an early age what Mexican time (running a hour or two late) and Native Time were, (in a couple of the local tribes, several hours late was the norm and on time was very rude) which was in stark contrast to the hyper-punctuality my subculture was known for. I lived next to reservations for decades and in a very high Latino population. So it wasn't odd at all for parents to distinguish with kids. 

"You got it, chief." is neutral or positive in my world.  1 mile south of one of my houses I lived in for 14 years, on tribal land, it's the equivalent to the N word. Yeah, kids where I'm from needed to know that what's polite to them can be the complete opposite to their neighbor.

I also had divorced parents from different subcultures: poor working class "swamp Yankee" not religious and middle class southwestern blue collar evangelical, so there were things that were not polite in my mother's world but perfectly acceptable in my father's. Swearing, bodily function talk/jokes, etc. So again, sets of manners were applicable in one environment and not the other.

My mother's side is from The South, so we had to be prepped to meet the relatives who used ma'am and sir all over the place regardless of age, but I couldn't use it around the locals because it was offensive to non-elderly people.

As a kid I had Asian friends that had different manners and I was taught to obey when at their houses like no shoes in the house, don't stick your chopsticks upright into the bowl of food and leave them there, slurping noodles is ok, etc. I had a friend from Italy where it was perfectly acceptable for people to yell every freaking sentence to each other in what sounded to me like angry tones that would've got my head slapped off if I had done it in my own home. In some friend's houses the first time I was invited over after meeting them, I was given the tour of the kitchen, told to help myself to anything I liked, and to not bother knocking before coming over again if I was expected.  At other houses, that would've been seen as incredibly rude. Manners are situation specific. Kids should know that.

So I sucked it up when they talked to me like that even though it was considered extremely rude in my world, and knew to not do it in my home.  That's why I tolerate ma'am and baby/pillow talk words here, because it's the norm with a few local subcultures.

So yes, I think it's a realistic expectation that parents contentiously explain to their children that there are different sets of manners rules for different subcultural contexts and to keep an eye and ear out for it because the reaction they could get might be intense. 

Let me tell you real story about a parent who failed to do this for their child. Within the last 10 years, my cousin's kids, living in rural Maine where it's taboo to call anyone ma'am, started a new school year with a new kid from Texas.  They were mid-elementary aged. The teacher started class with some type of instruction, I forget what exactly.  Texas kid responded with, "Yes, Ma'am!" All the kids gasped and looked shocked, then waited to see what the teacher would do.

The teacher immediately sent the child to the principle's office and the principal called the kid's parents to come get him because they weren't going to tolerate that kind of disrespect directed at a teacher in their school. There are no polite usages of ma'am in that subculture. None.  Only sarcastic ones. 

That child would've been so much better off it he had been told that ma'am is not universally used outside The South because it's not universally seen as polite-in some places it's the opposite of polite.  Imagine how shocked that poor kid was getting that kind of response from the teacher and principal.   Imagine how shocked his parents were. No one from the area was surprised in the least. All of the kids thought the teacher was just doing the right thing and would've expected the same treatment had they said it.  So would their parents.

[Ann.without.an.e]

4 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

It took me 6 months after my move to not feel like someone was stabbing me in the heart when they used ma'am with me. I keep my face neutral, but I won't use it.  I can't on principle-it's not appropriate because honorifics are hierarchical in nature.  This is a fast growing, high transplant area, so ma'am being flooded out by mainstream American norms. No need to perpetuate it, it'll die out here in a generation or two if this growth remains steady.

It's really a disservice to children raised in ma'am culture because they aren't told by their parents that it's only appropriate in their region and usually don't grasp how insulting it is to people where it's taboo (rural Maine where my dad's side lives) or unacceptable (big city southwest) to use it.
 

This isn’t about the use of ma’am since growing up in the south I rarely saw it pushed or enforced. Some used it and some didn’t, I wasn’t taught to use it.  
This is about the attitude overall. 

What is really heart stabbing is to have your culture so rapidly changing by implants that hate it. To hear them talk about your area and the people that you love as if you’re low life and they cannot wait to change it and stomp it all out. I hear it all the time. It is maddening. You don’t like where you came from so you choose our quaint little places with the mindset to b*tch and complain until you’ve created where you came from all over again.

Our area is one huge influx of transplants who constantly want to change everything. 

As the outsider if you choose to live somewhere you are making that choice. You don’t go into someone else’s community to change it to be like you. YOU are not the gold standard. Find ways to appreciate the culture around you or stay home. 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Jaybee]

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

When people say, "But we/I've always done it this way." in response to proposed change that solves a stated problem.  It may be true that it's always been done that way, but it's not relevant. Obviously it's problematic, so let's move on to problem solving, not reviewing history. 

People telling my obviously adopted child she's lucky to have us or should be so grateful to us.I respond with, "We're lucky to have her and are so grateful to all the people who helped facilitate her adoption. " The cluelessness is strong in some people.

When my morbidly obese SIL and a few other people comment on my food choices. "You're so thin because you're eating that and I'm fat/gaining weight because I'm eating this." If it would be considered rude for someone to mirror back exactly what you said, don't say it in the first place.  "Yes, my food choices keep me thin while yours make you fat/bigger." That would be obnoxious of me to say.

People referring to adults as "sweetheart", "sweetie", "hon", "honey", "darlin'", "baby", etc.  In my world those are for intimate relationships between adults and can only be directed to young children in general, never directed at other adults in non-intimate relationships.  Here in The South it's common and incredibly grating. I can't tell women who direct them at me (usually cashiers) how demeaning and insulting it is because they're just older people from a lower socioeconomic class where that's normative and have no reference point for norms in the wider world. They have enough to deal with, I don't want to pile onto their difficult lives. 

And of course, ma'am. I'd prefer actual fingernails on a blackboard to ma'am because screeching chalkboard sounds are more pleasant.  Where I come from it means little old lady with white hair, a hump, walker, hearing aids, and dentures.  Staff in the southwest in big cities who grew up there only use Miss, never ma'am unless the above description fits. They're risking a complaint to the management if ma'am was used for a customer who didn't fit that description.  Transplants there have to be trained to avoid it, but sometimes it slips out and some recipients are visibly irritated.  Usually it's freezing and locking in a stare, the cocking of a head to one angle, a stone cold face, or raised eyebrows, followed by a deep sigh.

It took me 6 months after my move to not feel like someone was stabbing me in the heart when they used ma'am with me. I keep my face neutral, but I won't use it.  I can't on principle-it's not appropriate because honorifics are hierarchical in nature.  This is a fast growing, high transplant area, so ma'am being flooded out by mainstream American norms. No need to perpetuate it, it'll die out here in a generation or two if this growth remains steady.

It's really a disservice to children raised in ma'am culture because they aren't told by their parents that it's only appropriate in their region and usually don't grasp how insulting it is to people where it's taboo (rural Maine where my dad's side lives) or unacceptable (big city southwest) to use it.

I don't like Mrs. Lastname at all and I despise Miss Firstname. I only tolerate it for the sake of peace, but it doesn't matter if it's a kid or an adult, I introduce myself as Lisa. Anyone calling me anything other than what I introduced myself as is being rude no matter what their mommy told them.  I get if they're reading my name off of paperwork or something else and didn't get a proper introduction from me first, but after the introduction, it's polite to only call people what they introduce themselves as.

Lisa, I grew up in the South. And every time I read one of your posts like this, I struggle with it. If you despise the South and its ways so much, I wonder why you ever moved there, and why you stay? You seem so disrespectful of the culture. I have lived in six states, anywhere from 8 weeks to 25 years, and have lived in six countries, anywhere from 8 months to 13 years. Every single place I have lived has had its good points and its bad ones. Of course, there were places I preferred over others. But even the place I struggled with the most had things about it that I miss. If I talked about those places with the disdain that you talk about your current place of residence, I would be hurting people right and left. I don't understand it. If you can't be generous toward people's intentions even if it isn't your preference or your culture, well, I just...I don't know.

FYI, though many people here find "ma'am" to be anywhere from distasteful to horrifying, where I grew up, it was just mannerly. It didn't mean you were putting them in the position of being a plantation owner and you as a slave. It didn't mean that you were placing yourself in a subservient place in a hierarchy. It didn't mean a child saying it to elders meant the child was scared and in a rigid system of authority. It might sometimes mean that a person was showing respect to someone else, perhaps older, perhaps a boss, often just friends, but I'm not sure that is all bad even though I am pretty much not impressed by hierarchies. But basically, it was just considered good manners. Something most of us could use more of. In my living in different cultures, I tried to learn how to express good manners in the place where I lived, without trying to impose my "better" ways on the new-to-me culture. It was a learning process, but I tried.

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Let me tell you real story about a parent who failed to do this for their child. Within the last 10 years, my cousin's kids, living in rural Maine where it's taboo to call anyone ma'am, started a new school year with a new kid from Texas.  They were mid-elementary aged. The teacher started class with some type of instruction, I forget what exactly.  Texas kid responded with, "Yes, Ma'am!" All the kids gasped and looked shocked, then waited to see what the teacher would do.

The teacher immediately sent the child to the principle's office and the principal called the kid's parents to come get him because they weren't going to tolerate that kind of disrespect directed at a teacher in their school. There are no polite usages of ma'am in that subculture. None.  Only sarcastic ones. 

While I completely agree that it is good if parents explain to children than manners are culture specific, and while I hate the term "Ma'am" - in this particular example, I consider the teacher to be the ignorant one. As a teacher, i.e. someone with a higher education whose job it is to educate children, she should have been aware that manners are culture specific and should have paused for a moment to ponder whether this kid (whose accent very likely gave a good clue that he wasn't from Maine) might possibly have grown up with different cultural norms

[Moonhawk]

5 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Let me tell you real story about a parent who failed to do this for their child. Within the last 10 years, my cousin's kids, living in rural Maine where it's taboo to call anyone ma'am, started a new school year with a new kid from Texas.  They were mid-elementary aged. The teacher started class with some type of instruction, I forget what exactly.  Texas kid responded with, "Yes, Ma'am!" All the kids gasped and looked shocked, then waited to see what the teacher would do.

The teacher immediately sent the child to the principle's office and the principal called the kid's parents to come get him because they weren't going to tolerate that kind of disrespect directed at a teacher in their school. There are no polite usages of ma'am in that subculture. None.  Only sarcastic ones. 

That child would've been so much better off it he had been told that ma'am is not universally used outside The South because it's not universally seen as polite-in some places it's the opposite of polite.  Imagine how shocked that poor kid was getting that kind of response from the teacher and principal.   Imagine how shocked his parents were. No one from the area was surprised in the least. All of the kids thought the teacher was just doing the right thing and would've expected the same treatment had they said it.  So would their parents.

I know it's not your point, but it sounds like it would have been so much better off if the teacher understood that Maine had an unusual subculture compared to other places with this word, and could see that her Texas student was intending respect. I mean, ???

(Mainers, my only knowledge of your area is Murder She Wrote. Doesn't the sheriff say "yes Ma'am" to Jessica Fletcher? Am I understanding him wrong? Did the show producers create a mockery of your state?)

[Jaybee]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

While I completely agree that it is good if parents explain to children than manners are culture specific, and while I hate the term "Ma'am" - in this particular example, I consider the teacher to be the ignorant one. As a teacher, i.e. someone with a higher education whose job it is to educate children, she should have been aware that manners are culture specific and should have paused for a moment to ponder whether this kid (whose accent very likely gave a good clue that he wasn't from Maine) might possibly have grown up with different cultural norms

Yes, this too. As an adult, when I moved to a state where the 80yo people I knew wanted to be called by their first names, and where "ma'am" was considered offensive, I was surprised at first. It took me some time to remember.

[teachermom2834]

As a Yankee living in the south we never taught our kids the necessity of the ma’am. Imagine my surprise when I was read the riot act about not having raised my kids properly only to find out it was because my 15 yo ds had responded “no thank you” instead of “no ma’am” to the women in a girlfriend’s family. 
 

My children were not perfect angels. I’m sure there was all kinds of worse evidence of their raising than that. 
 

But you know what? My boys learned when to use the “ma’am”. This is where we live. Sometimes you have to assimilate. 

Edited August 27, 2022 by teachermom2834

[Jaybee]

5 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

As a Yankee living in the south we never taught our kids the necessity of the ma’am. Imagine my surprise when I was read the riot act about not having raised my kids properly only to find out it was because my 15 yo ds had responded “no thank you” instead of “no ma’am” to the women in a girlfriend’s family. 
 

My children were not perfect angles. I’m sure there was all kinds of worse evidence of their raising than that. 
 

But you know what? My boys learned when to use the “ma’am”. This is where we live. Sometimes you have to assimilate. 

Even growing up in the South, my parents were not huge enforcers of "ma'am" and "sir." We as kids were rather sporadic. And my kids were even more so, because they grew up all over. I tried to teach them, to a certain extent, but we as parents were also rather sporadic. I was occasionally surprised when one of ours actually did say that. As far as I know, nobody got in trouble, but we also homeschooled...

[LuvToRead]

20 minutes ago, regentrude said:

While I completely agree that it is good if parents explain to children than manners are culture specific, and while I hate the term "Ma'am" - in this particular example, I consider the teacher to be the ignorant one. As a teacher, i.e. someone with a higher education whose job it is to educate children, she should have been aware that manners are culture specific and should have paused for a moment to ponder whether this kid (whose accent very likely gave a good clue that he wasn't from Maine) might possibly have grown up with different cultural norms

I agree.  When I read the post my first thought was how do grown ups in Maine not know that ma'am is used as a sign of respect in some parts of the country.  I know not everyone watches tv, but any military show or show set in the South will use the word ma'am.  I would be surprised if a teacher of a new student didn't realize they were from Texas, especially considering this was a rural (and I assume small) school.

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by LuvToRead

[teachermom2834]

1 minute ago, Jaybee said:

Even growing up in the South, my parents were not huge enforcers of "ma'am" and "sir." We as kids were rather sporadic. And my kids were even more so, because they grew up all over. I tried to teach them, to a certain extent, but we as parents were also rather sporadic. I was occasionally surprised when one of ours actually did say that. As far as I know, nobody got in trouble, but we also homeschooled...

My kids learned to use it when they sense it was expected or to default to it and that is fine. I’m not opposed to it. I just never cared to teach it. I will say I think it was very nutty to have a line in the sand where that is THE MARKER of good character but I have met a few people that seem like this is the litmus test. Which I will concede is still a head scratcher to me but that’s a pretty low bar so we’ll play.

I use/used the ma’am when my dd was being sassy or naughty and I would catch her and say “No ma’am” in a way to nip some bad behavior in the bud with no further discussion. Or when I worked in customer service as a snarky teen I would get mouthy back to rude customer and throw a “ma’am” on the end. I am sure I was also capable of using it appropriately and politely and I’m sure I used it to kindly get the attention of an older lady if I didn’t know her name. But I am sure I used it disrespectfully far more than politely. 
 

I’ve been in the south now 26 years. Pretty neutral on the “ma’am”. Decidedly not going to be friends with anyone that judges people based on the use of it!

[Jaybee]

2 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

My kids learned to use it when they sense it was expected or to default to it and that is fine. I’m not opposed to it. I just never cared to teach it. I will say I think it was very nutty to have a line in the sand where that is THE MARKER of good character but I have met a few people that seem like this is the litmus test. Which I will concede is still a head scratcher to me but that’s a pretty low bar so we’ll play.

 

Yep. I'm pretty neutral on the "ma'am" myself, despite my comments earlier. I look more toward the actual attitude. I have also used it to get someone's attention or in talking to children--and with children, not just with corrections, but in conversation sometimes.

[Soror]

I live in the Midwest, Ma'am and Sir are prevalent but not universal. These days the only parents I know that require it are the super conservative. I do not require it of mine and was not required to say it growing up. My parents weren't the super strict type. That being said I've picked it up anyway. When in public with people I don't know I reflexively say ma'am and sir. I had to catch myself when traveling so that I don't say it. The idea that we should be cognizant and respectful of other cultures.... Except the south gets me every time there is a big rant against it. 

(Now I do not like it when people/kids I know call me Ma'am or kids use Mrs first name. Really dont like it- if I know people I expect to be called by my first name except in a business situation)

Edited August 27, 2022 by Soror

[Ann.without.an.e]

19 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

Even growing up in the South, my parents were not huge enforcers of "ma'am" and "sir." We as kids were rather sporadic. And my kids were even more so, because they grew up all over. I tried to teach them, to a certain extent, but we as parents were also rather sporadic. I was occasionally surprised when one of ours actually did say that. As far as I know, nobody got in trouble, but we also homeschooled...

Only rarely did I come across someone who enforced it and we weren’t taught to use it. 
It is more of a personal choice.

[aug17girl]

It irrationally bugs me when cashiers end the transaction with "Bye now". The now feels dismissive and code for hurry up and get out of here.

I try to give people in public facing jobs a lot of grace, but it still bugs me.

[Guest]

Where I live, it is a very specific regionalism to call people “Hon” or “Honey”. *I* dont do it - I specifically trained myself to drop some of the regionalisms I grew up with - but it never bothers me when someone says that. It’s typically an older woman in a job like cashier. They say it to everyone. It is part of their normal speech. 
 

If I was going to be bothered every time someone called me Hon, I couldn’t shop in Baltimore or on the eastern shore at all. Heh.

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

 

I guess what I’d like you to think about is your attitude. You are being the exact same as if the student said “gosh I can’t wait until more Texans move to Maine and change it so that ma’am is standard because these New Englanders have it all wrong.” No, I recant that, you are being far far worse because (1) you are an adult (2) this new kid from Texas may have just not known any better yet but you, you know the culture you moved into and are hopeful to “stomp it out”

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Pawz4me]

56 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

As the outsider if you choose to live somewhere you are making that choice. You don’t go into someone else’s community to change it to be like you. YOU are not the gold standard.
 

You'd think well educated, well traveled people not of the (*cough* *cough*) . . lower socioeconomic classes . . . would know that, wouldn't you? But I suppose it's not normative for some.

Bless their hearts.

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Bless their hearts.

on the original topic of phrases that grate: this is one.

[Pawz4me]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

on the original topic of phrases that grate: this is one.

And in this instance it was very intentionally chosen by this born-and-bred Tar Heel in the hopes it would be grating. Grating is very much warranted.

[Ann.without.an.e]

7 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

And in this instance it was very intentionally chosen by this born-and-bred Tar Heel in the hopes it would be grating. Grating is very much warranted.

And I laughed right away because I knew exactly why you chose it 😂

[Tree Frog]

1 hour ago, teachermom2834 said:

But you know what? My boys learned when to use the “ma’am”. This is where we live. Sometimes you have to assimilate. 

My dd did this when we moved to Texas. Even though she has graduated and moved north, she still find herself using it. In her line of work, it's not offensive. So I'm thinking the differences are not only geographical, but also could be job sector related. 

[Jaybee]

I think I've discovered that things people say about other cultures rub me the wrong way.😬 That includes things about the educational levels and financial levels. Those things are important, but they do not convey the character and value of a person. I've read others on this board comment derogatorily about the medical school my father went to (which I have seen often in lists of best practitioners in various fields), the university most of my kids went to, etc. (Both are research schools.) Yet, my kids have done well. DIL has her PhD, oldest dd has a master's from an Ivy League and works in a well-known institution in NYC, another dd has a master's as well. Two haven't (yet) gone beyond bachelor's degree, and one is to graduate soon with a bachelor's degree. Not all of us can afford for our kids to go out of state to high-ranking schools (do you look down on that?), yet they still learn a lot and become real contributors to society in meaningful ways. And they are real thinkers, not just accepting a line from either political side. They even disagree with me sometimes, if you can believe that! And back to my dad--he was a farmer's son with 10 siblings, who served in the Navy, went to school at night while working at a steel mill, was 2nd in his class in med school, and then was a good and respected doctor until he retired at 70.

I hope I'm not derailing too much. I guess it's easy to see this touched a sore spot that's been festering awhile. I've been feistier than usual on here this week. I may need to find better ways to work off some of that...

[sweet2ndchance]

I grew up in Phoenix, the west valley to be specific. Then my family moved to eastern NC when I was 15. M'am and sir were definitely more prevalent in NC but it wasn't a 4 letter word in my part of Phoenix. Maybe it was the influence of living near the military community? Who knows but people weren't thought of as lower socioeconmic status for saying it. Nor were people highly offended by being called sir or m'am. It was certainly a culture shock in many ways when we got to NC but not because we were offended by what was considered good manners for the area.

Where I live now is not quite southern and not quite midwestern, kinda on the border between the two. Sir and m'am are used here but not as much as in the Carolinas for instance. Even though I grew up in Phoenix and have lived in many other states and even countries since then, sir and m'am are a part of my vocabulary. I don't use it as much as a true Southern but there are times and places where sir and m'am are appropriate and useful.

12 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

I think I've discovered that things people say about other cultures rub me the wrong way.😬 That includes things about the educational levels and financial levels. Those things are important, but they do not convey the character and value of a person.

Thank you! This a thousand times!

 

[KungFuPanda]

4 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

When people say, "But we/I've always done it this way." in response to proposed change that solves a stated problem.  It may be true that it's always been done that way, but it's not relevant. Obviously it's problematic, so let's move on to problem solving, not reviewing history. 

People telling my obviously adopted child she's lucky to have us or should be so grateful to us.I respond with, "We're lucky to have her and are so grateful to all the people who helped facilitate her adoption. " The cluelessness is strong in some people.

When my morbidly obese SIL and a few other people comment on my food choices. "You're so thin because you're eating that and I'm fat/gaining weight because I'm eating this." If it would be considered rude for someone to mirror back exactly what you said, don't say it in the first place.  "Yes, my food choices keep me thin while yours make you fat/bigger." That would be obnoxious of me to say.

People referring to adults as "sweetheart", "sweetie", "hon", "honey", "darlin'", "baby", etc.  In my world those are for intimate relationships between adults and can only be directed to young children in general, never directed at other adults in non-intimate relationships.  Here in The South it's common and incredibly grating. I can't tell women who direct them at me (usually cashiers) how demeaning and insulting it is because they're just older people from a lower socioeconomic class where that's normative and have no reference point for norms in the wider world. They have enough to deal with, I don't want to pile onto their difficult lives. 

And of course, ma'am. I'd prefer actual fingernails on a blackboard to ma'am because screeching chalkboard sounds are more pleasant.  Where I come from it means little old lady with white hair, a hump, walker, hearing aids, and dentures.  Staff in the southwest in big cities who grew up there only use Miss, never ma'am unless the above description fits. They're risking a complaint to the management if ma'am was used for a customer who didn't fit that description.  Transplants there have to be trained to avoid it, but sometimes it slips out and some recipients are visibly irritated.  Usually it's freezing and locking in a stare, the cocking of a head to one angle, a stone cold face, or raised eyebrows, followed by a deep sigh.

It took me 6 months after my move to not feel like someone was stabbing me in the heart when they used ma'am with me. I keep my face neutral, but I won't use it.  I can't on principle-it's not appropriate because honorifics are hierarchical in nature.  This is a fast growing, high transplant area, so ma'am being flooded out by mainstream American norms. No need to perpetuate it, it'll die out here in a generation or two if this growth remains steady.

It's really a disservice to children raised in ma'am culture because they aren't told by their parents that it's only appropriate in their region and usually don't grasp how insulting it is to people where it's taboo (rural Maine where my dad's side lives) or unacceptable (big city southwest) to use it.

I don't like Mrs. Lastname at all and I despise Miss Firstname. I only tolerate it for the sake of peace, but it doesn't matter if it's a kid or an adult, I introduce myself as Lisa. Anyone calling me anything other than what I introduced myself as is being rude no matter what their mommy told them.  I get if they're reading my name off of paperwork or something else and didn't get a proper introduction from me first, but after the introduction, it's polite to only call people what they introduce themselves as.

I was today years old when I learned that there is an entire region of people who react this viscerally to being called ma’am or sir. Even if you weren’t raised in a sir/ma’am culture you could certainly come out of the military using it as a catch-all term of formal respect. 
 

I knew some women could get testy about being called ma’am but that’s more about an unhealthy hang up with aging and less about formal address. Until your post I didn’t know it was taboo anywhere. That seems so childish to me. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

21 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I was today years old when I learned that there is an entire region of people who react this viscerally to being called ma’am or sir. Even if you weren’t raised in a sir/ma’am culture you could certainly come out of the military using it as a catch-all term of formal respect. 
 

I knew some women could get testy about being called ma’am but that’s more about an unhealthy hang up with aging and less about formal address. Until your post I didn’t know it was taboo anywhere. That seems so childish to me. 

I had never heard this either and I’ve lived in a few different places 😅 I just can’t imagine a world where it’s so despised that a teacher would react that way to hear it said by a Texan. Wouldn’t you have to live under a rock to not know that it is common in some areas of the country? If a teacher knew it was common where the student came from then wouldn’t they just say it wasn’t used around here and to please try to refrain? A trip to the principal’s office seems a bit excessive unless you’re culturally in the dark. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Clarita]

Wow I never thought this thread was going to turn so serious. 

For all the ma'am talk and people not exposed to other cultures, know there are some cultures that see it as rude that you showed up to their party on time. So I think it's a matter of teaching your children to be accepting of others even if what they deem is polite is not what you think, and look deeper into people's intentions instead of arbitrary "rules".

 

[regentrude]

58 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I was today years old when I learned that there is an entire region of people who react this viscerally to being called ma’am or sir. Even if you weren’t raised in a sir/ma’am culture you could certainly come out of the military using it as a catch-all term of formal respect. 
 

I knew some women could get testy about being called ma’am but that’s more about an unhealthy hang up with aging and less about formal address. Until your post I didn’t know it was taboo anywhere. That seems so childish to me. 

I recall the ma'am thing coming up repeatedly, in a number of threads, on these boards over the years. And it is not just about an "unhealthy hang up with aging" -  it's about the perceived connotations of servility, hierarchy, obedience culture, and much more that play into the visceral dislike by some people.

(Plus, some folks would really like a gender neutral form of polite address.)

[TravelingChris]

On 8/26/2022 at 4:47 PM, Indigo Blue said:

I posted recently on a similar thread….I don’t like man cave or she shed.

I don’t know why. 🤷‍♀️

 

I do too

[Ann.without.an.e]

On 8/27/2022 at 9:17 PM, regentrude said:

I recall the ma'am thing coming up repeatedly, in a number of threads, on these boards over the years. And it is not just about an "unhealthy hang up with aging" -  it's about the perceived connotations of servility, hierarchy, obedience culture, and much more that play into the visceral dislike by some people.

(Plus, some folks would really like a gender neutral form of polite address.)

I think if I saw that irl and not just in media portrayals then I’d feel the same way. Maybe I’m in the wrong area? I’m only a touch above the sc state line. Maybe I’m not “south enough” or old enough (44) but that’s not how it has been used here in my experience. It isn’t hierarchical, it is literally just a saying used across all ages and social statuses. Whatever the connotations were a long long time ago, they don’t exist anymore. There’s literally no social status connected to it. Language is constantly developing and changing and we have to let it do this. There are so many phrases and sayings and words that have evolved over time. Just because it is connected to the south doesn’t mean it isn’t allowed to change as well. There is such an anti-south stigma among so many people (and media plays on this) that it’s like we’re not allowed to have changed, grown, evolved too. Much of the country will use the term sir in a way that means no hierarchy to them today but because ma’am is southern (for madam) we aren’t allowed for it to have changed meaning as well?
 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Indigo Blue]

11 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I’m only a touch above the sc state line. 

I literally am, too. We could be very close to each other, depending how east or west we are from each other. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

9 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

I literally am, too. We could be very close to each other, depending how east or west we are from each other. 

It’s a fairly long border 😬

[Tree Frog]

2 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I was today years old when I learned that there is an entire region of people who react this viscerally to being called ma’am or sir. Even if you weren’t raised in a sir/ma’am culture you could certainly come out of the military using it as a catch-all term of formal respect. 

I have a funny ma'am story. Dh was in the military and deployed to a stateside location on July 4th. I called to talk to him and spoke with one of his cadets while dh was backing into a parking spot. It took a bit before he was parked, so I tried to make small talk with a student I didn't know and every question I asked ended with "yes, ma'am" or 'no, ma'am". Eventually I spoke with dh.

My sister was visiting and we decided that night to take our kids and drive to watch fireworks. On the way home, the state troopers were doing sobriety checks. He asked me some questions as he shined his flashlight through the van. To one of his questions I answered "yes, ma'am." His immediate follow up question was "Have you been drinking?" The answer of course was no, but I made sure to use the appropriate sir when answering his follow up questions. He let us go. I think I had just had too many ma'am's earlier that day!

Edited August 28, 2022 by Tree Frog

[happi duck]

It's been mentioned before but as a former public school teacher I can't get over the story of the ma'am kid getting booted out of class.  What an ignorant teacher!  When the other kids gasped what a teachable moment that could have been.  At the very least calmly teach the kid to not say ma'am in Maine.

The post was a cautionary tale to teach your kids all the manners and all the nuances of every culture.  What about the teacher being educated!!?!!?  It's far more embarrassing to be the ignorant teacher in that story who couldn't conceive of a kid from Texas saying ma'am respectfully.

[Garga]

On 8/26/2022 at 1:51 PM, Grace Hopper said:

I am bothered by people who start *every* conversation with, “Guess what?” And then pause for a reply like I have a clue what they’re going to tell about. Just make an opening statement I can respond to without feeling like I’m on a game show, please. 
 

I also dislike the nouns-into-verbs like gift and sale, and people who don’t know me well at all but use terms of endearment. The owner of the deli near my office has called me Hon, in a kinda creepy was,  the two times I’ve been in there. Yuck. 

My husband’s aunt hated it when her nephews (incl my husband) were small and would start off with “Guess what?!” So she decided to guess. For a good hour—refusing to let them tell her what they had wanted to say.

”You ate a fly today?”

”No! I…” 

“No no! Don’t tell me! I have to guess! Your teacher quit today?” 

“No, Aunt Shirley! What I wanted to say was…”

”No no! You said to guess. Liver is your favorite meal?”

She kept them going for a good hour and pretty much broke that habit. 🙂

 

On 8/26/2022 at 4:08 PM, athena1277 said:

My 19yo dd does the “guess what?” thing all the time.   Ow that she’s in college, it’s usually texted to me.  I finally started replying with “I don’t like guessing games.” 

 

On 8/26/2022 at 6:32 PM, teachermom2834 said:

Everytime we have one of these threads I find things I must stop doing so I don't annoy nice people like my imaginary friends.

Wait...does calling our online community "imaginary friends" set someone off? 

I call everyone my invisible friends. It’s a little more real than imaginary. 🙂

On 8/26/2022 at 6:56 PM, hjffkj said:

I sure hope not! I call the people from here that I've met in person my 'real imaginary friends.' The rest of you are just my plain old 'imaginary friends.'

 

20 hours ago, easypeasy said:

 

Something that happens frequently to me and is reallyreally petty, whiny, and weird that I hate it - but I hate when strangers tell me I'm pretty (or some other variation of that adjective). 🥴 I am told this freakishly often and I haaaaaate it.

I'm sure this happens to most other women and I hope you all love the feeling and appreciate it in the way the compliment is intended, lol!!! I'll just sit over here with my socially awkward self, unable to accept a compliment without feeling 🤢.

 

No one ever tells me I’m pretty. Not my mother, my husband, sons…no one. I think I’m a normal-looking person and when I get gussied up I’m at least cute, but I never, ever get told I’m pretty.  Don’t feel bad, Easypeasy, for not liking to be told you’re pretty, because I certainly understand why it would become more and more annoying over time. But I think it would be a little awesome to hear it once in a while! Oh well!

ETA: I might have had a picture or two on Facebook where someone said, “You’re pretty!” but never in person. And not often on FB. Do other people often get told they’re pretty? 

13 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

You’re not alone in this. My husband responds to our kids with, “I refuse to play guessing games.”

 

3 hours ago, Quill said:

Where I live, it is a very specific regionalism to call people “Hon” or “Honey”. *I* dont do it - I specifically trained myself to drop some of the regionalisms I grew up with - but it never bothers me when someone says that. It’s typically an older woman in a job like cashier. They say it to everyone. It is part of their normal speech. 
 

If I was going to be bothered every time someone called me Hon, I couldn’t shop in Baltimore or on the eastern shore at all. Heh.

There was a sign on 295 heading north into Baltimore that said, “Welcome to Baltimore” and for years—a good decade—someone painted “Hon” underneath it. Every now and then the “hon” would be painted over by the authorities, but after a week or so, it was back on there. I didn’t see it the last time I was on that part of the road, so maybe the “hon” painter finally gave up. 

I just found a video about Hon man! He didn’t paint it—it’s a sign. It looks like paint when you’re driving by at 60 mph.  

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Garga

[MercyA]

@Garga, I have seen you in photos here and you are beautiful. 

[HS Mom in NC]

Too many people to quote and tag.

Based on comments, it clear many missed the context of my socioeconomic level comments. I never said everyone here in The South is low on the socioeconomic ladder with no access to a good education, I said the people that I interact with that use baby/pillow talk are. (Honey, baby, sweetie, etc.) That's a specific subset of Southerners.

I have no expectation that someone at a low socioeconomic level (evidenced by women who are missing teeth+ using very non-standard grammar+ working low paying jobs at an older ages) has the leisure time and money for lots of book reading, tv watching, out of region travel, and movie going.  That person has likely been working multiple jobs for a very long time just to tread water. Saying so is not looking down on them for it, it's understanding their context and adjusting my expectations accordingly. Discussions about subcultures often have a socioeconomic component.

It explains why they wouldn't know baby/pillow talk is offensive in a place of business. Clearly they don't know it as evidenced by them using it with a friendly demeanor. Women's rights groups have been fighting for generations against women being treated like girls such as  needing permission from their daddies and husbands to get credit cards and their own bank accounts, etc. and they want to be spoken to in the same terms their male co-workers speak to each other, not with terms used for sexual partners, that's why that talk is so offensive.

 People higher up the economic ladder would have been exposed to ideas like that through media, subculture, and professional norms, which is why they don't use baby/pillow talk in that context. It's usage is clearly a class distinction in this area, which any linguist will tell you is highly influential in regional language differences.

People with enough money for leisure time (midway and higher on the socioeconomic rungs) have seen plenty of tv and movies, and have read books set in different places in decent public schools, and many have traveled out of their regions, any of which is ample opportunity to notice that ma'am culture isn't normative across the US-it's region specific to The South generally, and in some regions in business settings when you need a customer's attention and don't know their name. They know there are differences.

The problem is, way too many who use it seem to assume that all other regions see ma'am as neutral.  They have a very hard time accepting that it's not used due to reasons on a spectrum from neutral/out of the norm to highly negative/offensive, so they don't see the need to fill the kids in on the idea of sharp differences.  Then when they or their kids occasionally get a negative reaction from someone who finds it offensive, they act surprised. They shouldn't.

The Maine scenario with the Texan parents and kid sent home for saying ma'am should've noticed the differences either from a life time's worth of media or being in that new place where people there don't use it at all. Likewise the teacher and principle should've not have applied a zero tolerance policy in that situation because they've been around long enough to know Southerners use it. None of the adults are off the hook.

I used that example to drive home the point that there are places where it is different degrees of offensive, like it or not, a fact people should accept, like it or not. No one is saying that accepting that fact is the same as agreeing that it's offensive, I'm saying it makes sense to acknowledge that it is offensive to some people and to make kids aware of the idea that what is polite to some is rude to others so they should adjust their expectations.

Let's not mischaracterize things.  I never suggested that people in The South should stop using ma'am just because transplants and visitors don't use it. I said I refuse to use it based on an egalitarian principle I have against the hierarchical terms ma'am and sir.

I said transplant culture is changing the culture in The South and ma'am won't be used at all in a generation or two because of population changes and the cultural norms they bring with them. That's how non-isolationist culture has always worked throughout history. It should surprise no one, yet somehow so many people here and in the big city southwest transplant culture I came from are still surprised by these cultural changes that have been going on around them for decades. I'm not saying anyone has to like the changes, I'm saying it's really weird to not expect changes in culture when the population changes significantly. It's like not expecting the sun to rise in the east. Yeah, it does that. I see no point is fussing over it the way so many people do.

 Back to the ma'am thing, since other parts of the country find ma'am offensive, saying, "People who use it don't mean it offensively" doesn't solve the problem in the other regions.  That's why I gave the example of the response to the term "chief" by the Native American tribe near me.  Just because in my world it's neutral, it's unrealistic to expect someone who finds it offensive to like it used at them or for them to agree that it's acceptable.  Likewise, if you don't hear a drawl and some y'alls from someone, you're rolling the dice using ma'am with them.  I was very clear I tolerate it for the sake of peace, but this is a thread about what rubs you the wrong way, so I talked about it rubbing me very wrong and the underlying reasons of why it's so bothersome.

[heartlikealion]

Re: ma’am - I tried to tell some people (like my in-laws and Xh) about the stigma with the word where I came from but instead of understanding or really listening they just dug their feet in the ground that it’s polite/respectful and that’s that. My SIL raised my niece and nephew to use it and I once commented that it loses the intent when it’s said robotically. For me saying something like, “yes, please” was plenty polite. Even just “yes” in the right context. I didn’t need ma’am. I actually hated ma’am but put up with it from the kids because that’s what they were taught. I didn’t expect my own children to ma’am me but Xh started pressing them to “sir” him. On occasion, if my kids were being sassy I might tell them, “yes, ma’am” was the acceptable response. 

One day the ma’am think was discussed head on in a TV show I was watching and I was like, “see?!” to Xh. Lol he did believe me but his dad was also military so maybe that’s why the sir business was so ingrained? I couldn’t relate because my dad was in the military for a little while and none of us ever did the sir thing toward him. He’s just Dad. He never wanted us to call him sir. 

[KrissiK]

On 8/26/2022 at 12:00 PM, JessieC said:

 

I also really dislike being called "mom" by pediatricians and the like. Would it be so hard to look down at the chart and learn my name? It makes me feel like this interchangeable "mom" figure and not a person.

This drove me nuts. I’m like, “I have a name. Look at the chart. It’s not that hard.” 

[gardenmom5]

just venting. . . .

Edited August 28, 2022 by gardenmom5

[Shoeless]

Oy, after the last few years, as long as someone is being nice to me, I don't care what I'm called.  Ma'am, miss, hon, sweetie, Her Royal Highness, Sugar, it's all good.

Edited August 28, 2022 by MissLemon

[Tanaqui]

8 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

That child would've been so much better off it he had been told that ma'am is not universally used outside The South because it's not universally seen as polite-in some places it's the opposite of polite.  Imagine how shocked that poor kid was getting that kind of response from the teacher and principal.   Imagine how shocked his parents were. No one from the area was surprised in the least. All of the kids thought the teacher was just doing the right thing and would've expected the same treatment had they said it.  So would their parents.

And you think the problem here is the child's parents and not the child's teacher?

Because I just can't see it. She was the adult in the room. She has had more years to learn "In some places, this is polite usage" than that child has had to learn "In some places, this is not polite".

And honestly - even if she had no reason to think this was a misunderstanding, sending the child to the principal and then calling the parents to fetch him was ENTIRELY uncalled for. This all could have, and should have, been handled in class by simply saying "We don't say that here. You can call me Ms. Lastname" and then writing a note home spelling out the offense and why it's not okay in the classroom.

[J-rap]

1 hour ago, MissLemon said:

Oy, after the last few years, as long as someone is being nice to me, I don't care what I'm called.  Ma'am, miss, hon, sweetie, Her Royal Highness, Sugar, it's all good.

Yes to this!  If people are being nice in the way they know how, why not just accept it?

[Guest]

@Garga as I know you IRL, YOU ARE PRETTY! You’re also intelligent, interesting and very nice to talk to. I keep thinking how much I’d like to get together again but it’s been tricky since we both started working FT. 
 

Re: The Baltimore Hon: it used to be painted; the Hon man in the video has only done it for a year as of the time of the video. I have seen it many times and I love it as a piece of local culture. I think it should be permanent. 
 

There is an official sign in Maryland that says, “God Bless Y’All Real Good.” I 💜 that! It doesn’t diminish the people who live there now, nor the people who are ancestrally from there (like me!) It’s a quirky, fun peek into local culture. 

[Guest]

Also wanted to add, Re: Pretty:

Because I grew up constantly hearing versions of this from my mother, it is something I very, VERY rarely say to anyone, especially my kids. As my kids were growing up, I almost never said any version of “you have an appealing mix of genetic and style features”. Once in a while, if they were all fancied up for a dance or a wedding or something, I might say, “You look gorgeous!” But mostly not. 
 

My mother would think she’s being encouraging but it simply felt like pressure. She would tell other people things like, “You’ll know when my daughter gets here because she will be the most gorgeous woman here.” I HATE that!! Because, first of all, I guarantee *nobody* wants to hear that as a description of who to expect. Secondly, they are evaluating me when I do show up, and are no doubt thinking, “she’s not *so gorgeous*. She looks okay but look at the way her XYZ…” I just don’t want people to have some great expectation that a gorgeous woman is about to show up. 
 

My mother has a multitude of health issues now and there’s not much danger she’s going to call me beautiful again soon, but I do not miss it. I’m sure I would like to hear it once in a blue moon from *somebody* (my husband does say this when I’m fancied up), but in general, it’s not a compliment I like hearing very much. I do think, as we pass and then surpass fifty, it’s going to be said or even thought increasing less often. I guess that too is a reason I don’t want to hear how pretty I am - it does not last. My mother herself was once one of the most strikingly beautiful women I have ever known but you wouldn’t guess that now. Health problems have taken over. 

[Ausmumof3]

On 8/27/2022 at 1:56 PM, theelfqueen said:

A woman came into the museum today. The woman has a serious and important job. I'd guess she is also younger than I. 

She kept.calling me "girl" ... hey girl could you do x? Thanks girl... etc... 

That rubbed me all sorts.of wrong. 

That’s actually really rude!

[Ausmumof3]

14 hours ago, Quill said:

So long as we’re discussing Miss/Mrs./Mr., here is what I’m never certain of: when to switch to a first name with clients, and does their age relative to mine make a difference. Like, an 80yo woman is probably always going to be Ms. Carmichael to me; I cannot find it in me to call her Esther. But when we have a young client the age of one of my kids, I find it difficult to call them Ms./Mr. for very long. But for the large hunk of people in the middle - say, 30-65 yo - I never know when to switch, even if they have begun calling me by my first name. 
 

It makes me think of the thing in France, where they will literally ask for permission to use the “tu” form, rather than the more formal “vous”. 

I notice a lot of medical places have a “preferred name” on the records forms. Maybe something like that could help if your clients fill out a form?