News: Why Americans are increasingly dubious about going to college

[Arcadia]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/americans-are-increasingly-dubious-going-college-rcna40935

https://hechingerreport.org/how-higher-education-lost-its-shine/
“Focus groups and public opinion surveys point to other, less easily solved reasons for the sharp downward trend. These include widespread and fast-growing skepticism about the value of a degree, impatience with the time it takes to get one, and costs that have finally exceeded many people’s ability or willingness to pay.  

There has been a significant and steady drop nationwide in the proportion of high school graduates enrolling in college in the fall after they finish school — from a high of 70% in 2016 to 63% in 2020, the most recent year for which the figure is available, according to the National Center for Education Statistics.

The decline is even worse in some states, though not all have data for the same periods of time.

The proportion of high school graduates in Tennessee who are going directly to college, for example, has fallen to 53% — down 11 percentage points since 2017. In Indiana, it dropped to 53% in 2020, down 12 percentage points from five years earlier and a pace state Commissioner for Higher Education Chris Lowery has called “alarming.”

In West Virginia, 46% of 2021 high school graduates went on to college the following fall, 10 percentage points belowthat state’s high of 56% in 2010. Fifty-four percent of 2021 high school grads in Michigan went straight to college, down 11 percentage points from 2016.

In Arizona, 46% of high school graduates in 2020 went to college the following fall, a drop from more than 55% in 2017. In Alabama, recent high school graduates’ college-going in 2020 fell to 54%, down 11 percentage points since 2014. And in Idaho, college-going has plunged to 39%,down 11 percentage points since 2017.

Americans are increasingly dubious about the need to go to college. Fewer than 1 in 3 adults now say a degree is worth the cost, according to a survey by the nonprofit Strada Education Network, which conducts research into and financially supports ways of expanding access to higher education.

… This is being made only worse by a growing unhappiness among recent university and college graduates with the value of the education they received.

More than 4 in 10 bachelor’s degree holders under 45 don’t agree that the benefits of their educations exceeded the costs, according to a survey by the Federal Reserve. Only a quarter in another survey, by the educational publishing and technology company Cengage, said that, if they could do it again, they’d take the same educational path.

That adds up to a lot of bad reviews passed down to younger siblings and classmates, for whom family and friends are the most trustworthy sources about whether to go to college, according to a survey by the Indiana Commission for Higher Education. 

… Yet since the start of the pandemic, the proportion of 14- to 18-year-olds who think education is necessary beyond high school has dropped from 60% to 45%, the nonprofit Educational Credit Management Corporation.

… In Indiana, 70% of residents said they found trying to understand the state’s financial aid options “overwhelming.” In Tennessee, many high school studentssaid they didn’t think they were eligible for state financial aid, even though they probably qualified. 

… The United States has already fallen from second to 16th since 2000 among developed nations in the proportion of 25- to 34-year-olds with bachelor’s degrees. Countries ahead of it have increased their bachelor’s degree attainment during that time by an average of 177%, an analysis by an institute at the University of Pennsylvania found.“

[cintinative]

NM. addressed later in article

Edited August 10, 2022 by cintinative

[Bootsie]

Perhaps the real sotry is not that there has been a drop in the number enrolling in college since 2016-but why was enrollment increasing up to 2016.  This isn't an indication that something is wrong with universities that needs to be changed.   Perhaps some were being encourage to go to college, when that wasn't the best path for them.  The idea that "everyone needs to go to college"--was something that these young people heard repeatedly beginning in pre-school and kindergarten.  

[kokotg]

Maybe this was what @cintinative was going to say? Lede: buried a bit?

Quote

A degree does, in fact, still pay off. Workers with bachelor’s degreesearn 67% more than people with only high school diplomas, according to the BLS. More than half of “good jobs” — those with salaries of at least $35,000 for workers under age 45 and $45,000 for people  45 to 64 — call for bachelor’s degrees, the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce estimates.

ETA: I definitely have concerns about low income kids getting the message that college is too expensive instead of being mentored in ways to make college affordable. Because as far as I can tell it's not wealthy kids who are deciding to forego college, for the most part.

Edited August 11, 2022 by kokotg

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

ETA: I definitely have concerns about low income kids getting the message that college is too expensive instead of being mentored in ways to make college affordable.

This was the part I was concerned about. I have relatives who delayed going to college but that is very different from thinking they can’t afford to.

“… In Indiana, 70% of residents said they found trying to understand the state’s financial aid options “overwhelming.” In Tennessee, many high school students said they didn’t think they were eligible for state financial aid, even though they probably qualified”

I didn’t get to read what @cintinative wrote before she deleted. The pay disparity part of the article wasn’t what I was concerned about so I didn’t quote as I already quoted quite a big chunk of the article.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

“… In Indiana, 70% of residents said they found trying to understand the state’s financial aid options “overwhelming.” In Tennessee, many high school students said they didn’t think they were eligible for state financial aid, even though they probably qualified”

To me, this represents extreme failure on the part of high school guidance counselors. I already had a low opinion based on my own experience and the experiences of just about every young person I know, but this is just terrible. My local high school supplements counselors with volunteers to help students with applying to college. I definitely plan to volunteer once I retire.

[regentrude]

8 hours ago, Arcadia said:

This was the part I was concerned about. I have relatives who delayed going to college but that is very different from thinking they can’t afford to.

“… In Indiana, 70% of residents said they found trying to understand the state’s financial aid options “overwhelming.” In Tennessee, many high school students said they didn’t think they were eligible for state financial aid, even though they probably qualified”

I heard that several times from my older students who only later in life decided to go to college. They were good students but from low income families with no college background, and, as one student put it, they thought "college is not for the likes of me". So heartbreaking and infuriating!

[shawthorne44]

I can understand.   When I went to school (I'm 52) there was an idea that anyone could get a decent job with any college degree.   If someone worked their butt off during college and went to a good but not fancy school or had parental money, they could graduate with minimal debt.  The song with "50 thou a year buys a lot of beer" just popped into my head for some reason.    

Now all the federal financial aid has turned universities into drunken sailors (apologies to the Navy since Universities are worse.)   Now what we hear about is young adults with 100K in college debt working as a barista.    It isn't just the news.   Look in the thread here about college debt 'forgiveness' and all the people on here who said that their college debt is unsupportable.  

 

[Arcadia]

8 hours ago, regentrude said:

I heard that several times from my older students who only later in life decided to go to college. They were good students but from low income families with no college background, and, as one student put it, they thought "college is not for the likes of me". So heartbreaking and infuriating!

How is the outreach from state universities and community colleges in your area? Here the public school teens and parents are well aware of low/no cost tuition (and textbooks) for community colleges and the state universities do campus visits to schools in relatively low-income areas. 

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

How is the outreach from state universities and community colleges in your area? Here the public school teens and parents are well aware of low/no cost tuition (and textbooks) for community colleges and the state universities do campus visits to schools in relatively low-income areas. 

I don't know for sure but would imagine it's a question of population density. In the cities, yes, there are probably more outreach activities. But in the sparsely populated poor rural areas with the crappy schools? I doubt it.

[Malam]

On 8/10/2022 at 8:35 PM, kokotg said:

Maybe this was what @cintinative was going to say? Lede: buried a bit?

ETA: I definitely have concerns about low income kids getting the message that college is too expensive instead of being mentored in ways to make college affordable. Because as far as I can tell it's not wealthy kids who are deciding to forego college, for the most part.

I'm pretty sure there's a very alrge selection bias going on here. As more and more intelligent, hardworking kids who would have gone to college 20 years ago start to opt out, the income gap should decrease.

[Lori D.]

On 8/10/2022 at 9:32 PM, Frances said:

To me, this represents extreme failure on the part of high school guidance counselors... My local high school supplements counselors with volunteers to help students with applying to college. I definitely plan to volunteer once I retire.

Or a lack of high school guidance counselors to begin with. In some school districts, that position was cut due to budget constraints, and so sometimes a single guidance counselor is having to cover multiple high schools and many more students than is realistic for providing meaningful help. Volunteers would be a blessing to those over-worked guidance counselors.

[ScoutTN]

Programs like this seem to provide a viable alternative for kids who don’t want to go the college road, but want good business jobs.

Praxis

Many business and tech jobs do not require degrees, just competence and hard work. Sales work especially.

Edited August 13, 2022 by ScoutTN

[MamaSprout]

In Indiana's case, you still can make a decent living here without a four year degree. Cost of living is low in most areas, there is something of a skilled labor shortage making wages competitive, and the steel, auto, and biomedical industries are doing fine. There's a good CC system.

I know a few brother - sister situations where sister got a degree and brother works a skilled job in manufacturing. Brother makes more. It is hard to justify debt if you know very many of those situations.

That said, my old dc had a horrible guidance counselor in high school. We basically did it ourselves.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

In Indiana's case, you still can make a decent living here without a four year degree. Cost of living is low in most areas, there is something of a skilled labor shortage making wages competitive, and the steel, auto, and biomedical industries are doing fine. There's a good CC system.

I know a few brother - sister situations where sister got a degree and brother works a skilled job in manufacturing. Brother makes more. It is hard to justify debt if you know very many of those situations.

That said, my old dc had a horrible guidance counselor in high school. We basically did it ourselves.

I think it’s similar in my state. The salaries quoted above actually seem quite low to me, although COL is higher. My SIL’s business pays significantly more than that for entry level blue collar work with no education requirements. A sober, dependable young person with a good work ethic can make excellent money here in many areas and will receive on the job training with plenty of room for advancement.

I honestly think it’s more of a problem when so many jobs don’t actually require college level skills, but they want the degree anyway. The college for all high school experience pushed for many years was terrible on so many levels. The large school district here has finally seen the light and greatly expanded their votech offerings. Not only are more students graduating high school with marketable job skills, but more are graduating, period. They’ve shown a definitive link between taking votech classes and increased graduation rates. Now my state just needs to expand higher education opportunities for the degrees people actually want, like healthcare professions, rather than relying on in-migration and shortchanging our young people who want more education.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Frances

[kokotg]

4 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

In Indiana's case, you still can make a decent living here without a four year degree. Cost of living is low in most areas, there is something of a skilled labor shortage making wages competitive, and the steel, auto, and biomedical industries are doing fine. There's a good CC system.

I know a few brother - sister situations where sister got a degree and brother works a skilled job in manufacturing. Brother makes more. It is hard to justify debt if you know very many of those situations.

That said, my old dc had a horrible guidance counselor in high school. We basically did it ourselves.

Or you can know people like my father who's over 70 and still working a very physically demanding job with no retirement in sight because the kind of union jobs with pensions that worked so well for my grandfather's generation don't exist anymore (at least not in "right to work" states like mine). 

[MamaSprout]

7 hours ago, kokotg said:

Or you can know people like my father who's over 70 and still working a very physically demanding job with no retirement in sight because the kind of union jobs with pensions that worked so well for my grandfather's generation don't exist anymore (at least not in "right to work" states like mine). 

My dad worked until well after 70 and he had a degree and worked in banking for years. Not great stock market, poor choices in money matters.

I'm not saying it's the right choice for these students not to go to college, just offering an explanation as to why Indiana is one of the ones who has a lower straight to college statistic.

[kokotg]

2 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

My dad worked until well after 70 and he had a degree and worked in banking for years. Not great stock market, poor choices in money matters.

I'm not saying it's the right choice for these students not to go to college, just offering an explanation as to why Indiana is one of the ones who has a lower straight to college statistic.

if things continue the way they're going everyone's going to be working until past 70 soon...but there's a big difference between doing it at a desk job and doing it in manual labor. I just always think of my Dad and other people I know who are in that position when people (not you--it's just a trend I see) romanticize going into "the trades." 

[EmilyGF]

28 minutes ago, kokotg said:

if things continue the way they're going everyone's going to be working until past 70 soon...but there's a big difference between doing it at a desk job and doing it in manual labor. I just always think of my Dad and other people I know who are in that position when people (not you--it's just a trend I see) romanticize going into "the trades." 

There's a third option - people like my dad who are working at 69 at a physical job (cabinetry), but who went to college and even have a masters (in engineering, none-the-less) and have chosen to work in another field. He likes working his physical job because it helps keep him healthy. He also hikes and takes backpacking trips. He changed from Civil Engineering to cabinetry at 30, though I think he runs his business much better because of his higher education.

Emily

[kokotg]

2 minutes ago, EmilyGF said:

There's a third option - people like my dad who are working at 69 at a physical job (cabinetry), but who went to college and even have a masters (in engineering, none-the-less) and have chosen to work in another field. He likes working his physical job because it helps keep him healthy. He also hikes and takes backpacking trips. He changed from Civil Engineering to cabinetry at 30, though I think he runs his business much better because of his higher education.

Emily

It's great to have a choice to do that as long as you're healthy and enjoying it. It's quite another thing to HAVE to continue working in a physically demanding job with no exit strategy when you have age related health challenges that make it extremely difficult. And, of course, no one can predict when they're choosing a career what their health will be like in 40 years. 

[Frances]

11 hours ago, kokotg said:

Or you can know people like my father who's over 70 and still working a very physically demanding job with no retirement in sight because the kind of union jobs with pensions that worked so well for my grandfather's generation don't exist anymore (at least not in "right to work" states like mine). 

Fortunately, in my state employers have to facilitate the state retirement plan for employees if they don’t offer their own. And it is an opt-out, rather than an opt-in program, which research has shown to significantly increase savings levels. So while this does not provide a pension, which I think is fairly rare for anyone outside of government jobs these days, it does give all workers the ability to save for retirement from a young age. I think this is key because it is in those early career years where blue collar workers are often better off financially than their college going peers. And with the Roth option, the early savings benefits are magnified.

[ScoutTN]

5 hours ago, kokotg said:

if things continue the way they're going everyone's going to be working until past 70 soon...but there's a big difference between doing it at a desk job and doing it in manual labor. I just always think of my Dad and other people I know who are in that position when people (not you--it's just a trend I see) romanticize going into "the trades." 

Yes. We know people who are older in trades, but they have moved up into supervisory/mgmt roles or have become partners/owners. So they make more and have less physically demanding work. But only a small percentage will get to do that.

[Frances]

39 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Yes. We know people who are older in trades, but they have moved up into supervisory/mgmt roles or have become partners/owners. So they make more and have less physically demanding work. But only a small percentage will get to do that.

I think it’s almost the opposite here. Every owner of trade or blue collar businesses I know is desperate for smart, dependable workers and very willing and eager to train anyone who shows promise to take on supervisory or management roles. I know at least two right now who are actively helping long time employees to eventually take over their business and are doing everything possible to set them up for success. The main issue they face is getting people who are interested in physical jobs and who show up on time, work hard, and don’t cost them $ due to negligent behavior with equipment. The issues my SIL faces with his employees are never ending and very stressful. And they get excellent pay and benefits, including their own vehicles. He would give anything to have three employees demonstrating the characteristics needed to be placed in supervisory positions and they would be very well compensated.

[Roadrunner]

And not all college degrees are worth it from jobs perspective. What I see is a massive push to college of kids who’s aren’t ready, and they end up in easy majors and no jobs subsequently. I mean my local four year university issued degree in kinesiology or phycology  is worthless. You will work at a bar or a hotel, something you could have done without spending four years in a classroom. 

[shawthorne44]

On 8/12/2022 at 8:11 PM, Frances said:

I honestly think it’s more of a problem when so many jobs don’t actually require college level skills, but they want the degree anyway.

I also think this is a huge problem.  I used to work as an Engineer in tech manufacturing.  There were older people working on the floor without a high school diploma who were hired back when the requirements were a warm body and the ability to consistently give the same 9-digit number.  That same job required an Associates Degree.  
 

[ScoutTN]

1 hour ago, shawthorne44 said:

I also think this is a huge problem.  I used to work as an Engineer in tech manufacturing.  There were older people working on the floor without a high school diploma who were hired back when the requirements were a warm body and the ability to consistently give the same 9-digit number.  That same job required an Associates Degree.  
 

Yes. The local Nissan plant now requires a degree for all jobs, even things like working in the gift shop or greeting at the tour desk. Ridiculous.

[mlktwins]

18 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I mean my local four year university issued degree in kinesiology or phycology  is worthless. You will work at a bar or a hotel, something you could have done without spending four years in a classroom. 

I'm curious why you say this about kinesiology?

[Arcadia]

12 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Yes. The local Nissan plant now requires a degree for all jobs, even things like working in the gift shop or greeting at the tour desk. Ridiculous.

It is ridiculous. My teens has no issue being a volunteer at the library doing very similar tasks.

My husband’s department hires lab techs based on either lab work experience (preferred) or fresh graduate from community college with internship experience. If a current employee can vouch for a fresh graduate work ethic, they would hire and train too. 

3 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

I'm curious why you say this about kinesiology?

I think it has to do with job openings versus number of graduates as well as how versatile/flexible the graduates are with job choices. My former high school PE teacher has kinesiology as one of her major and teaching PE wasn’t her number one job choice. My former high school has four PE teachers and they don’t change jobs so there are no openings until someone retire. An ex-classmate is a physiotherapist but openings at where she works is rare and she has no interest in being self employed. 

[Roadrunner]

42 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

I'm curious why you say this about kinesiology?

No jobs. Here it’s a super popular major among boys and local colleges really promote those programs. There are simply not anywhere near the amount of job openings to support those programs. 

[mlktwins]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

No jobs. Here it’s a super popular major among boys and local colleges really promote those programs. There are simply not anywhere near the amount of job openings to support those programs. 

Unless you continue on to PT school or something, correct?

[Roadrunner]

3 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

Unless you continue on to PT school or something, correct?

Physical therapist programs are super competitive and we don’t have them locally. I also understand you need to be academically very strong to get in and survive PT programs. However Kinesiology locally attracts kids who aren’t academically inclined. Every sports kid with a low GPA is going into those programs locally and hoping to be a PE teacher (once every 20 year opening). 

[mlktwins]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Physical therapist programs are super competitive and we don’t have them locally. I also understand you need to be academically very strong to get in and survive PT programs. However Kinesiology locally attracts kids who aren’t academically inclined. Every sports kid with a low GPA is going into those programs locally and hoping to be a PE teacher (once every 20 year opening). 

I'm probably going to post this on the high school board too, but I am struggling!  DS1 decided last year he wants to major in kinesiology.  But...as of now, he doesn't really know what he wants to do with it.  He does not want to go to additional school for PT, etc. (or so he thinks).  He does not want to be a teacher.  He is well above average academically, but he got into working out, weight lifting, and eating very healthy during the pandemic (when he was out of swim for a year).  He wants to do a job he loves and is not as worried about money, which is all well and good until you have to pay the bills.  He thinks he is going to come out of college and start his own business.  I've discussed startup costs, the percentage of new businesses that don't work out, that if he takes out a loan, he will need to pay it back, etc.  That he will need a good business plan.  He says he hears me, but I'm not so sure.

So...we are paying for school.  We are hoping for merit aid/scholarships to help, but still a lot of money -- for a degree that won't get him anywhere.  DH is not super happy about that.  DS1 and I have had a lot of discussion about this.  I want him to at least get a business degree so he has that to fall back on.  I brought him around to wanting to double major in business and kinesiology so that he will be well prepared to run a business (own a gym).  Now I know he doesn't need a degree to own a gym.  He doesn't need a degree to be a personal trainer.  He knows this too.  But he could do something with a business degree if what he tries to do with kinesiology doesn't work out.  He could change his mind and decide to go into PT, OT, cardiac rehab, etc., but he will need to pay for any advanced degree.

But...the kinesiology schools here are direct admits to the program and I'm not sure how to bring the business side into it.  Maybe major in business in minor in kinesiology to let him get a feel for everything? 

He is limiting his school choice to the better kinesiology programs, which are good business schools too, but he isn't going for some good business schools because of a lack of kinesiology majors.

I've also told him if he doesn't go to college now, it will be harder to do when he is out there on his own trying to work and pay for college.  I'm pretty sure DH will not be offering full college for him 5 or 10 years down the road, KWIM?

Any suggestions on how to proceed?  I'm not even sure how to handle this with colleges.  Go in undecided and take classes in both business and kinesiology?  

Other DS knows he wants business of some kind and is great with anything math related, economics, stats, etc.  He loves it.  DS1 is great with numbers too, but I don't know 🤷‍♀️.  I just needed to put this out there somewhere.  Maybe someone has some advice or insight.  I'm doing this pretty much myself.

I've been trying to have good, productive discussions with him since last summer when he sprung this on me.  They never end well.  I really don't want to crush his dreams, but he just doesn't know how things work in the grown up world.  Do we just let him do kinesiology and figure it out on his own?  He might be in for a shock when he is paying his own way.

😬

[daijobu]

The book Designing Your Life might be helpful here.  It isn't a follow your passion and the money will follow  type of book.  It's realistic in the sense that people who enjoy cooking may hate working in a restaurant.  

It offers realistic suggestions like aggressively pursuing informational interviews with people you admire to figure out if you truly want to do what they do.  Find some of those students who graduated with kinesiology degrees and see what they are doing.  Are they Uber drivers or business owners?  (One of my dd's Uber drivers had a PhD in sociology, so I'm guessing this is a plausible future for your ds if he doesn't otherwise figure it out.)  

Edited August 14, 2022 by daijobu

[daijobu]

More good career advice can be found in So Good They Can't Ignore You, and also in the author's blog and podcast.  

[mlktwins]

12 minutes ago, daijobu said:

The book Designing Your Life might be helpful here.  It isn't a follow your passion and the money will follow  type of book.  It's realistic in the sense that people who enjoy cooking may hate working in a restaurant.  

It offers realistic suggestions like aggressively pursuing informational interviews with people you admire to figure out if you truly want to do what they do.  Find some of those students who graduated with kinesiology degrees and see what they are doing?  Are they Uber drivers or business owners?  (One of my dd's Uber drivers had a PhD in sociology, so I'm guessing this is a plausible future for your ds if he doesn't otherwise figure it out.)  

Thank you!!!

I did send him a long email (he seems to better accept information this way lately), and I told him that maybe he needs to get a degree and have a job that is in demand (and hopefully well paying), that will allow him to do what he loves in his off time.  To follow his passions that way.  I also told him that he may not love doing "whatever he thinks he wants to do with a kinesiology degree" when he has to deal with other people or the business end of it.  I brought up an example of a photographer.  Someone that has a passion for and is gifted at taking pictures.  Maybe they decide to do it as a career, but then end up hating it when the business end of things comes into play - dealing with customers, have to take, pick out, edit photos that people want printed (in their timeframe), do the money end of it, not having the time to go out and take pictures of the things they love.  I could give other examples of this too.

I'm very frustrated!

ETA:  I also spent a long time, while doing PT, talking with various PT's, interns, etc.  I asked about job options for just a kinesiology degree, I asked about PT school, etc.  I wanted DS1 to come into some of my appts and ask them questions, see what it was about - or to see if he could shadow them one day.  DS1 was a no go on this suggestion 😔.  Sometimes I feel like I should let him find his own way, but possibly an expensive mistake!

Edited August 14, 2022 by mlktwins

[Lecka]

My husband’s job had him working with some college students who were kinesiology majors.

 

It was a harder major with science classes.

 

It was full of people applying for PT school or things like that.

 

People who weren’t going to apply for PT school changed to a major with fewer science classes.

 

I’m sure it varies but that was the reputation it had.  

[daijobu]

My dd the Stanford CS major is studying some personal trainer type curriculum in her spare time for fun.  DH tells me there are quite a few tech workers who also work as personal trainers or teach exercise classes for fun.  Because they make enough money in their full time gig to have another fun job on the side.  Who knew?  

[regentrude]

@mlktwins

My DS is an athlete,  very passionate about his sport, and he started out majoring in Athletic Training. We selected a school that offers a Masters in 5 years. He added physics as a 2nd major.

A year in, he was fed up with all the memorizing for physiology and bio. He dropped AT, majored in physics ( and one class short of the math double major) and is now starting grad school.

So, they may change their mind once in college. I would make sure he attends a school that has a broad variety of majors and then see how it shakes out.

[EmilyGF]

Apropos kinesiology (or math... or whatever)...

My friend's son is a math major at CalPoly SLO. During the first term, they had all math majors go to career fairs, tell recruiters their field, and then find out who hired people in their major and what they were looking for when they hired. My friend's son is still a math major, but now he's focusing on Operations Research and has planned classes so he can do an OR internship next summer.

I was so impressed by this that I plan to have my kids do the same. It seems like freshman year is a good time to do this research so you can make changes early, whether kinesiology or math. Apparently the recruiters told him, "We don't hire math majors, but we do hire physics majors." Who know? But Operations Research was in demand.

Emily

[regentrude]

53 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

 Sometimes I feel like I should let him find his own way, but possibly an expensive mistake!

I have a kid for whom this was absolutely the only way. He had to find out himself where the pitfalls are, and choose his own path and make intentional choices about his education. Nothing we could have done would have created the outcome he achieved by himself. 

[Miguelsmom]

I don't know I'm torn. ROI is around 36 years old for a degree that cost 100k. So 37-64 you've caught up making more. so if you spend more, have a less than adverage wage job, or take longer than 4 years to graduate then it takes that much longer to get to the ROI. There's also the horrible drop/fail out rate of college. All those students carry the debt without the rewards. So many are making less then they would if they never went to school. And it's not kids that shouldn't have gone to college in the first place. We're talking about kids with AP credits that graduate top of their class not completing college. There's a heart breaking article of where the Baltimore valedictorians are 10 years later. 

That said with guidance I think carefully chosen education is the key out of poverty.  My son graduate 2 years early and is spending those 2 years getting a master's degree. His current degree starting value is 80k. His master's degree will put him up passed 100k. Unless he decides to be a college teacher. His whole degree will cost him $51,250 this will hopefully include his PhD. For a kid who's parents income never broke 30k that's a lot of loans and he's scared but also excited to make more money then he's ever seen. I have no doubt he'll pay off his loans in 2 years if he makes as much as he can. However because of his goals he may not make the ROI until late 50s if at all. but he'll make enough to live on.

 

Of his friends he is the only one to go to college. I'm trying to set up 529s for my nephews and niece and I'm getting push back in case they don't go to college. But I feel getting through college is a family ordeal. I'd rather save money for the possibility that they go then for the possibility that they don't go.

[JanetC]

On 8/10/2022 at 5:35 PM, kokotg said:

Maybe this was what @cintinative was going to say? Lede: buried a bit?

ETA: I definitely have concerns about low income kids getting the message that college is too expensive instead of being mentored in ways to make college affordable. Because as far as I can tell it's not wealthy kids who are deciding to forego college, for the most part.

This. Children of those with "good degrees" (not the for-profit diploma mill stuff that is responsible for so much of the student debt crisis) will still go to college. The would be first-gen kids are the ones who are not going to go to college, and that's sad for our society as a whole. College is more than just job training - you learn and grow in other ways while there!

There was a study recently showing that mobility out of lower classes is better when low income people have higher income friends. College is one of the few ways that still happens. The financial aid safety net has so many holes... even with financial aid it is very hard on first-gen kids.

There is never a guarantee with any college degree plan -- Even if you pick a lucrative major, you can graduate four years later in a great economy or a crashed one and there is no way of knowing in advance. Families and students risk their savings and their financial future paying off debt for this experience when it should be much more affordable.

 

[Frances]

3 hours ago, mlktwins said:

I'm probably going to post this on the high school board too, but I am struggling!  DS1 decided last year he wants to major in kinesiology.  But...as of now, he doesn't really know what he wants to do with it.  He does not want to go to additional school for PT, etc. (or so he thinks).  He does not want to be a teacher.  He is well above average academically, but he got into working out, weight lifting, and eating very healthy during the pandemic (when he was out of swim for a year).  He wants to do a job he loves and is not as worried about money, which is all well and good until you have to pay the bills.  He thinks he is going to come out of college and start his own business.  I've discussed startup costs, the percentage of new businesses that don't work out, that if he takes out a loan, he will need to pay it back, etc.  That he will need a good business plan.  He says he hears me, but I'm not so sure.

So...we are paying for school.  We are hoping for merit aid/scholarships to help, but still a lot of money -- for a degree that won't get him anywhere.  DH is not super happy about that.  DS1 and I have had a lot of discussion about this.  I want him to at least get a business degree so he has that to fall back on.  I brought him around to wanting to double major in business and kinesiology so that he will be well prepared to run a business (own a gym).  Now I know he doesn't need a degree to own a gym.  He doesn't need a degree to be a personal trainer.  He knows this too.  But he could do something with a business degree if what he tries to do with kinesiology doesn't work out.  He could change his mind and decide to go into PT, OT, cardiac rehab, etc., but he will need to pay for any advanced degree.

But...the kinesiology schools here are direct admits to the program and I'm not sure how to bring the business side into it.  Maybe major in business in minor in kinesiology to let him get a feel for everything? 

He is limiting his school choice to the better kinesiology programs, which are good business schools too, but he isn't going for some good business schools because of a lack of kinesiology majors.

I've also told him if he doesn't go to college now, it will be harder to do when he is out there on his own trying to work and pay for college.  I'm pretty sure DH will not be offering full college for him 5 or 10 years down the road, KWIM?

Any suggestions on how to proceed?  I'm not even sure how to handle this with colleges.  Go in undecided and take classes in both business and kinesiology?  

Other DS knows he wants business of some kind and is great with anything math related, economics, stats, etc.  He loves it.  DS1 is great with numbers too, but I don't know 🤷‍♀️.  I just needed to put this out there somewhere.  Maybe someone has some advice or insight.  I'm doing this pretty much myself.

I've been trying to have good, productive discussions with him since last summer when he sprung this on me.  They never end well.  I really don't want to crush his dreams, but he just doesn't know how things work in the grown up world.  Do we just let him do kinesiology and figure it out on his own?  He might be in for a shock when he is paying his own way.

😬

I don’t know how different they are, but my son’s university had a very popular human physiology major, as opposed to kinesiology. Several of my son’s friends majored in it and it was actually considered quite rigorous with a full year each of chem, bio, and physics plus Calc and stats for lower level classes then almost 30 quarter credits of human anatomy and physiology with labs that used human cadavers before taking upper level classes. We attended the graduation one year and it was true that many of the students wanted PT school or other health related careers. Unfortunately, post-bac BSN and PT programs are both in very short supply here, so most of his friends ended up going out of state for grad school.

It sounds like double majoring would be ideal if your son is up for it. I know my son’s university did not have a minor in human physiology because of the extremely high number of credits required before students could even take any upper level classes.

[Roadrunner]

@mlktwinsAnd I don’t know the answer either, but kids who were more academically oriented often ended up switching into nursing or moving to pursue physical therapy degree. 
I know economy is often local, so along locally what one can do with a degree like that is useful.  

[Roadrunner]

3 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

Apropos kinesiology (or math... or whatever)...

My friend's son is a math major at CalPoly SLO. During the first term, they had all math majors go to career fairs, tell recruiters their field, and then find out who hired people in their major and what they were looking for when they hired. My friend's son is still a math major, but now he's focusing on Operations Research and has planned classes so he can do an OR internship next summer.

I was so impressed by this that I plan to have my kids do the same. It seems like freshman year is a good time to do this research so you can make changes early, whether kinesiology or math. Apparently the recruiters told him, "We don't hire math majors, but we do hire physics majors." Who know? But Operations Research was in demand.

Emily

We could really use something like that.

my kid is interested in physics. We have no clue what he can do with that. 

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

my kid is interested in physics. We have no clue what he can do with that. 

Physics is a very versatile degree that signals to employers great math skills and analytical problem solving skills.

Two thirds of physics graduates continue to grad school ( which is fully funded). Some then go into academia ot national labs. 

besides academia:

Teach highschool. Great job market because of the shortage of qualified physics teachers.

Research and development for companies - from aircraft to GPS devices to tech To water metering

Medical IT, software development, all kinds of computer related stuff

Finance (because of data skills)

Become an entrepreneur and found a startup. 

My DD (double major physics and literature) worked in the career office of a major university after graduation where she became program director for careers in STEM.

Edited August 15, 2022 by regentrude

[ScoutTN]

My son’s high school physics teacher worked for NASA before he came to teaching. 

[MamaSprout]

15 hours ago, mlktwins said:

I'm probably going to post this on the high school board too, but I am struggling!  DS1 decided last year he wants to major in kinesiology.  But...as of now, he doesn't really know what he wants to do with it.  He does not want to go to additional school for PT, etc. (or so he thinks).  He does not want to be a teacher.  He is well above average academically, but he got into working out, weight lifting, and eating very healthy during the pandemic (when he was out of swim for a year).  He wants to do a job he loves and is not as worried about money, which is all well and good until you have to pay the bills.  He thinks he is going to come out of college and start his own business.  I've discussed startup costs, the percentage of new businesses that don't work out, that if he takes out a loan, he will need to pay it back, etc.  That he will need a good business plan.  He says he hears me, but I'm not so sure.

So...we are paying for school.  We are hoping for merit aid/scholarships to help, but still a lot of money -- for a degree that won't get him anywhere.  DH is not super happy about that.  DS1 and I have had a lot of discussion about this.  I want him to at least get a business degree so he has that to fall back on.  I brought him around to wanting to double major in business and kinesiology so that he will be well prepared to run a business (own a gym).  Now I know he doesn't need a degree to own a gym.  He doesn't need a degree to be a personal trainer.  He knows this too.  But he could do something with a business degree if what he tries to do with kinesiology doesn't work out.  He could change his mind and decide to go into PT, OT, cardiac rehab, etc., but he will need to pay for any advanced degree.

But...the kinesiology schools here are direct admits to the program and I'm not sure how to bring the business side into it.  Maybe major in business in minor in kinesiology to let him get a feel for everything? 

He is limiting his school choice to the better kinesiology programs, which are good business schools too, but he isn't going for some good business schools because of a lack of kinesiology majors.

I've also told him if he doesn't go to college now, it will be harder to do when he is out there on his own trying to work and pay for college.  I'm pretty sure DH will not be offering full college for him 5 or 10 years down the road, KWIM?

Any suggestions on how to proceed?  I'm not even sure how to handle this with colleges.  Go in undecided and take classes in both business and kinesiology?  

Other DS knows he wants business of some kind and is great with anything math related, economics, stats, etc.  He loves it.  DS1 is great with numbers too, but I don't know 🤷‍♀️.  I just needed to put this out there somewhere.  Maybe someone has some advice or insight.  I'm doing this pretty much myself.

I've been trying to have good, productive discussions with him since last summer when he sprung this on me.  They never end well.  I really don't want to crush his dreams, but he just doesn't know how things work in the grown up world.  Do we just let him do kinesiology and figure it out on his own?  He might be in for a shock when he is paying his own way.

😬

Can he double major? My dd28 did a pre-pt (science-heavy) program, worked as a pt assistant for 3 years. She didn't like working with people who didn't take care of themselves, and went back and got her MBA instead of doing PT school.

 

[SKL]

I wonder if some of them are hoping to get some college tuition benefits from employers, or save a bit by working to help pay for college, or just wait a little longer before they decide what field to invest all that money into?

I wonder what impact the availability of free college in high school has had.  And also, the availability of good vocational programs in high school.

I do think sometimes kids go to college because they aren't ready to become full adults in the financial/career sense.  It can obviously be a pretty expensive detour in the long run.  If kids are getting better advice in that regard, that's not a bad thing.

[shawthorne44]

18 hours ago, daijobu said:

My dd the Stanford CS major is studying some personal trainer type curriculum in her spare time for fun.  DH tells me there are quite a few tech workers who also work as personal trainers or teach exercise classes for fun.  Because they make enough money in their full time gig to have another fun job on the side.  Who knew?  

 

I had no idea this was such a thing.   Where I work most employees are computer programmers.  A really large percentage of those are major fitness buffs.   I'd guess a third worked as Fitness Trainers while they were in college.   I had thought that we'd hired all the fitness gurus/computer programmers in the area just because people tend to hire those like themselves.