Article about executive function?

[Tree Frog]

Dh has a very nice young man working for him that causes dh immense amounts of frustration. The young man is in his 30's, but acts more like our kids in their 20's. Based on examples dh's given me (unable to organize what needs to be done, isn't able to prioritize tasks, doesn't recognize how long tasks will take,  among other things), I think he may struggle with executive function issues. I believe he may also have adhd (based on things he's told dh.) I would like to provide dh some information so dh can manage his own expectations and possibly help/scaffold the young man. 

Do you have any articles that define executive function and offer suggestions specifically for the workplace I could send him? I'm not looking for something dh can share with the young man, but rather info specifically for dh. Thank you. 

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

I don’t know the answer to your questions but I think it’s really sweet of your DH to want to help him. ❤️

Also, maybe commenting will bump this so those who know more can help 🙃

Edited August 9, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[73349]

If you don't find an article, look at this thread:

 

[historically accurate]

Some things that popped up when I googled "how to be a boss to people with executive function disorder":

https://employmentjourney.com/understanding-executive-function-and-how-to-support-staff-in-the-workplace/

https://careerwise.ceric.ca/2019/10/02/how-accommodations-can-help-people-with-executive-function-issues-thrive-at-work/#.YvJZRHbMJPY

https://www.understood.org/en/articles/executive-functioning-issues-in-the-workplace-what-employers-need-to-know

 

 

 

[Tree Frog]

48 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

Some things that popped up when I googled "how to be a boss to people with executive function disorder":

https://employmentjourney.com/understanding-executive-function-and-how-to-support-staff-in-the-workplace/

https://careerwise.ceric.ca/2019/10/02/how-accommodations-can-help-people-with-executive-function-issues-thrive-at-work/#.YvJZRHbMJPY

https://www.understood.org/en/articles/executive-functioning-issues-in-the-workplace-what-employers-need-to-know

 

 

 

I debated about googling first, but as I have very limited knowledge about EF, I was hoping someone knowledgeable about it might know which articles are better. 

[Arcadia]

45 minutes ago, Tree Frog said:

I debated about googling first, but as I have very limited knowledge about EF, I was hoping someone knowledgeable about it might know which articles are better. 

@PeterPan@kbutton@Lecka@Lawyer&Mom @ktgrok might be able to help.

[Storygirl]

There is a good book called Smart but Scattered. I heard the author speak once, as well. Although it's a book, not an article, your DH could skim or pick out relevant chapters to read.

Having two "scattered" children, it's definitely challenging to deal with poor EF issues, and I empathize with your husband as the manager. It's easy to feel overwhelmed and frustrated when you have to do your own EF and provide the EF for others who lack it.  I think that if he and the employee can work out some accommodations and strategies, it will be worth it to both of them.

[cintinative]

23 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

There is a good book called Smart but Scattered. I heard the author speak once, as well. Although it's a book, not an article, your DH could skim or pick out relevant chapters to read.

She has a book for adults, but I have not read it. I also have heard her speak (about kids). Very helpful.  This is the book: https://www.amazon.com/Smart-but-Scattered-Guide-Success/dp/1462516963

 

[kbutton]

My success with people in my family with EF issues is 1.5 for 3. The person has to want to live with less chaos and has to be able to recognize help and helpful strategies. If that is in place, some of the resources listed might help.

Expect it to take a long time. Be straightforward, and expect that language is going to be an issue. ADHD is genetic, so they might think they are more normal than they are. Additionally, one potential EF problem is not being able to see cause and effect or learn from it at all. 

It would help to know what the work environment is like. In some cases, not noticing what needs to done and being able to prioritize is a deal breaker, and at other times a checklist and running through real scenarios is enough (over time, not as a one and done solution). Even learning to use checklists though will still be like trying to run a marathon on a prosthetic leg vs. a real one.

The people in my house that are the hardest to get through to say things like, “It’s so hard hard to remember what not to do.” In reality, they just need to remember what TO DO, which is always a much, much shorter list. I think they literally believe that’s too simple and feel a compulsion to deviate. Sometimes they are just bored by doing things in a simple, straightforward way or adhering to any kind of routine. Additionally, somehow these people come up with endless new ways to do something novel and utterly counterproductive and truly don’t see that they are avoiding sound strategies. If it’s not bright and shiny, you can’t make them want it.

I wish I could be more helpful, but the downside of living with the afflicted and then reproducing people with his DNA who have these issues bit me in the rear this morning before I even got out of bed. I am so over it and ready to let the debilitated occupy their own chaotic planet instead of earth.

Good luck. I hope my space cadet kid gets a boss that cares. Bless your DH for trying.

[kbutton]

My kid with the most pervasive developmental issues has better EF than the less afflicted, which is also par for the course. Sorry to be bleak.

[Tree Frog]

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

My success with people in my family with EF issues is 1.5 for 3. The person has to want to live with less chaos and has to be able to recognize help and helpful strategies. If that is in place, some of the resources listed might help.

Expect it to take a long time. Be straightforward, and expect that language is going to be an issue. ADHD is genetic, so they might think they are more normal than they are. Additionally, one potential EF problem is not being able to see cause and effect or learn from it at all. 

It would help to know what the work environment is like. In some cases, not noticing what needs to done and being able to prioritize is a deal breaker, and at other times a checklist and running through real scenarios is enough (over time, not as a one and done solution). Even learning to use checklists though will still be like trying to run a marathon on a prosthetic leg vs. a real one.

The people in my house that are the hardest to get through to say things like, “It’s so hard hard to remember what not to do.” In reality, they just need to remember what TO DO, which is always a much, much shorter list. I think they literally believe that’s too simple and feel a compulsion to deviate. Sometimes they are just bored by doing things in a simple, straightforward way or adhering to any kind of routine. Additionally, somehow these people come up with endless new ways to do something novel and utterly counterproductive and truly don’t see that they are avoiding sound strategies. If it’s not bright and shiny, you can’t make them want it.

I wish I could be more helpful, but the downside of living with the afflicted and then reproducing people with his DNA who have these issues bit me in the rear this morning before I even got out of bed. I am so over it and ready to let the debilitated occupy their own chaotic planet instead of earth.

Good luck. I hope my space cadet kid gets a boss that cares. Bless your DH for trying.

What I'm hearing from you and others is that this will be a long term effort. This employee will only be in dh's office for maybe 6-9 more months. Are there any strategies that might help short term? Dh has had the employee make his own checklist for a project that repeats monthly, but it hasn't been productive. 

I'll look for the book Smart But Scattered in the library. Would it be offensive if I were to pick up a copy for the young man? (I realize it's somewhat person dependant as to whether it would be offensive, but is it something people who struggle with EF would easily be offended by?) Or is there a book written specifically for adults who struggle with EF?

Thank you all for the ideas. @Arcadia, thanks for tagging people. 

[itsheresomewhere]

1 hour ago, Tree Frog said:

What I'm hearing from you and others is that this will be a long term effort. This employee will only be in dh's office for maybe 6-9 more months. Are there any strategies that might help short term? Dh has had the employee make his own checklist for a project that repeats monthly, but it hasn't been productive. 

I'll look for the book Smart But Scattered in the library. Would it be offensive if I were to pick up a copy for the young man? (I realize it's somewhat person dependant as to whether it would be offensive, but is it something people who struggle with EF would easily be offended by?) Or is there a book written specifically for adults who struggle with EF?

Thank you all for the ideas. @Arcadia, thanks for tagging people. 

Unless he has directly spoken to you and asks for help, it would be offensive to get him a copy. It would really peeved off my one with EF issues. 

[kbutton]

Better to be peeved off and learn than to lose jobs. My extended family members with ADHD tend to go through several jobs before figuring out that they have a problem.

[Tree Frog]

11 hours ago, historically accurate said:

https://www.understood.org/en/articles/executive-functioning-issues-in-the-workplace-what-employers-need-to-know

 

 

 

This is a good article I think dh will be able to use. Thank you. 

[PeterPan]

On 8/8/2022 at 10:07 PM, Tree Frog said:

immense amounts of frustration

If it's that far, the employee may very well be on the spectrum.

Too bad the guy isn't diagnosed, because then they could bring in the county or orgs for support. In the big cities near us they have a variety of orgs and businesses that do this. Unfortunately, your dh's hands may be tied with what he can do. I don't know if he can suggest that the guy get evals, etc., sigh. You can be really sympathetic but at some point they have to be able to do the job. Sometimes going through a bunch of jobs is part of that learning curve that brings them to the point where they get evals. 

Can this guy be repositioned to a job he's better suited to? Doesn't seem reasonable to do so much handholding. Not everyone who gets a degree in something ends up being able to work in that degree. Sometimes reality dictates a different job. Maybe it's kind to start to shoo him in that direction toward what really fits him.

[PeterPan]

13 hours ago, historically accurate said:

Some things that popped up when I googled "how to be a boss to people with executive function disorder":

https://employmentjourney.com/understanding-executive-function-and-how-to-support-staff-in-the-workplace/

https://careerwise.ceric.ca/2019/10/02/how-accommodations-can-help-people-with-executive-function-issues-thrive-at-work/#.YvJZRHbMJPY

https://www.understood.org/en/articles/executive-functioning-issues-in-the-workplace-what-employers-need-to-know

 

 

 

The ideas in the articles will be good, but I will suggest it's really awkward to say (or walk into it thinking) it's the employer's job to figure out what is going wrong and figure out the employee's accommodations. That's what evals are for, and sometimes losing jobs repeatedly is the wake-up call that drives the person to get evals, get meds, and get their act together. 

Guess I'm kinda tough love on this. It's wonderful to support people, but they have to be doing their part, getting evals, recognizing their disabilities and weaknesses, asking for help, accepting supports. It's not the employer's fault if the employee was not diagnosed, was not given intervention, etc. etc. He has limits to what he can do and what he is morally responsible to do.

Edited August 10, 2022 by PeterPan

[vonfirmath]

This thread has been VERY useful for me with my son with ADHD.  We went through one of the article about executive functioning strategies above. And he made up a tentative planner he wants to try to use in HS this year. And he's willing to TALK about different strategies for helping with executive functioning.

 

And even to read the Smart but Scattered books we have on our shelves and he totally refused to read when we first got it.

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

This thread has been VERY useful for me

Our school district uses the ELSA and I strongly suggest going through it to make sure you've nailed all those basic employability skills. https://www.ocali.org/up_doc/ELSA-For-Professionals-01052021.pdf  You are correct that under-employment in people with some disabilities will occur in spite of IQ. We want to make sure we're providing these basic skills to our kids to make sure they're ready to launch. Some will get there naturally and some need more intention. Good forms can help you find the *holes*.

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

And even to read the Smart but Scattered books we have on our shelves and he totally refused to read when we first got it.

LOL Denial, it's not just a river in Egypt. LOL My poor son has been asking me OVER AND OVER about upcoming events over the next 6+ months and he couldn't keep any of them straight no matter how many times I told him. I finally realized he has, like op says, no sense of time!!! He has no strong sense of what month comes after the next or when things happen. I realize now he needs a physical planner, like the EF people say, so I got one. But there's that hurdle of realizing WHY you might want to do something. So it's not a very pretty stage, telling him straight what is happening and telling him why he needs this tool. At a certain point, it's no longer kindness to hold back. It's sort of the balance. 

[itsheresomewhere]

7 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

The ideas in the articles will be good, but I will suggest it's really awkward to say (or walk into it thinking) it's the employer's job to figure out what is going wrong and figure out the employee's accommodations. That's what evals are for, and sometimes losing jobs repeatedly is the wake-up call that drives the person to get evals, get meds, and get their act together. 

Guess I'm kinda tough love on this. It's wonderful to support people, but they have to be doing their part, getting evals, recognizing their disabilities and weaknesses, asking for help, accepting supports. It's not the employer's fault if the employee was not diagnosed, was not given intervention, etc. etc. He has limits to what he can do and what he is morally responsible to do.

I agree with you.  

[kbutton]

13 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Too bad the guy isn't diagnosed, because then they could bring in the county or orgs for support.

Yes. Vocational rehab could be really useful. People can also use Section 504 supports on the job. Not all accommodations are reasonable for all jobs, but they have to provide reasonable accommodations. 

Figuring out what to ask for is tricky though.

[fraidycat]

13 hours ago, PeterPan said:

The ideas in the articles will be good, but I will suggest it's really awkward to say (or walk into it thinking) it's the employer's job to figure out what is going wrong and figure out the employee's accommodations. That's what evals are for, and sometimes losing jobs repeatedly is the wake-up call that drives the person to get evals, get meds, and get their act together. 

Guess I'm kinda tough love on this. It's wonderful to support people, but they have to be doing their part, getting evals, recognizing their disabilities and weaknesses, asking for help, accepting supports. It's not the employer's fault if the employee was not diagnosed, was not given intervention, etc. etc. He has limits to what he can do and what he is morally responsible to do.

It would be a kindness for the employer to suggest to the employee to have an eval done, though, rather than just have the young man repeatedly lose his jobs due to his poor EF. If he doesn't even know that evals and support exist, he can't possibly be "doing his part" quite yet or even recognize that he has a disability. Executive Function is probably not even in this kid's vocabulary.
 

Maybe he is already asking for help - from OP's DH in the form of "which task should I do first" type of questions which led the OP, a full grown woman with many more years of experience in life, to come here to ask questions. It's not like there are billboards all over town advertising ADHD evals with a list of symptoms for everyone to recognize with a walk-in service counter where one can just go get evaluated.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, fraidycat said:

It's not like there are billboards all over town advertising ADHD evals with a list of symptoms for everyone to recognize with a walk-in service counter where one can just go get evaluated.

It's actually becoming more common to see billboards. Understood.org has a bunch of them. 

Aside from that, I agree that an employer saying something would be a kindness. What can they legally say and not say, though? I bet there are some potential pitfalls.

[Danae]

32 minutes ago, kbutton said:

It's actually becoming more common to see billboards. Understood.org has a bunch of them. 

Aside from that, I agree that an employer saying something would be a kindness. What can they legally say and not say, though? I bet there are some potential pitfalls.

He should absolutely not suggest anything related to a potential diagnoses.  And he should not mention discussing the employee with his wife.  He can say things directly related to job performance and suggest strategies to address them.  

[kbutton]

22 hours ago, Tree Frog said:

Dh has had the employee make his own checklist for a project that repeats monthly, but it hasn't been productive. 

I think honing in on why this didn't work could be helpful, BTW. 

One lovely feature of EF issues is that some people with them often resist routines or even healthy habits, preferring to wing it or getting bored. 

I worked once with a woman who could teach someone how to do her job flawlessly, but she couldn't actually do the job to save her life. Fun times. 

[katilac]

One great thing he could do is send him to professional training, if that's an option. Time management, project management, organization, that type of thing.

One of my employers in my early days sent me to many a Franklin Quest training, very big in those days, lol, and it definitely improved my planning and organizational skills. They're Franklin Planner now, and still offer a lot of trainings (live, webinar, etc). They have a very short free one that's actually a decent introduction to planning and prioritizing for people who greatly lack those skills. 

If training funds are very limited, some inexpensive and even free trainings can be found through places like the library or Coursera-type organizations. Even a workbook can be helpful. Written answers and notes should be absolutely required, no casual viewing or reading. 

For the job itself, I'd avoid trying to teach executive function principles in general (bc it's massively difficult) and keep it super-specific to the job.

If he doesn't have a handle on how long tasks take, then he needs to keep a time log and talk to 3 more experienced employees about recurring tasks (not just talk, but take notes). 

If he has trouble prioritizing tasks, then he needs to block out 45 minutes on Friday morning to plan and prioritize specific tasks for the following week. Friday afternoon, someone goes over it with him and points out what isn't practical, what is misprioritized, and so on. I say 'points out' but they should quickly be moving to a questioning method: I see a breakdown in tasks between C and E, look at them again and consider what it could be. Maybe E is assembling the widgets but there is no specific task for ordering the widgets. 

Same for planning projects: block out time and have a go, then someone else reviews and helps revise. 

It's important to make it blocking out the time and writing it down requirements. He needs to block the time so that he's ready for the review and not inconveniencing others who are helping him. He needs to write it down so that it's very clear what he's missing and where things aren't clear. Many people are extremely resistant to this, bc it's easier and more pleasant to think that things will go smoothly this time, and not write things down and not have to review where things might go wrong and not have to think things through and commit to a certain plan or set of tasks. 

This seems like a big time commitment from dh and other employees, but it would actually benefit them to have expectations, descriptions, and protocols in place for many tasks. Even more-organized people can get up to speed more quickly with written resources. 

 

[Kuovonne]

Wow. Reading this thread has helped me feel less lonely in my years long attempts to build up executive function in my DD.

The book Smart But Scattered didn’t help my DD. 

[kbutton]

8 hours ago, katilac said:

This seems like a big time commitment from dh and other employees, but it would actually benefit them to have expectations, descriptions, and protocols in place for many tasks. Even more-organized people can get up to speed more quickly with written resources. 

I agree. 

In my first job, I was expected to write a status report every week, and it was incredibly helpful to me and to my boss (and I wasn't struggling with EF skills). 

7 hours ago, Kuovonne said:

Wow. Reading this thread has helped me feel less lonely in my years long attempts to build up executive function in my DD.

The book Smart But Scattered didn’t help my DD. 

I am convinced that some people with EF issues have no concept of what to do when they encounter organizational help that is tailor made for them. It's like turning down a drink of water when they are super thirsty and have even expressed a need--it's like they just take the water and dump it on some well-watered plants instead. It just fails to compute.

My one kid that has learned to have good EF craves the stability it brings and has learned to make his own strategies. The other people in my household try, sometimes get a new strategy (usually something entirely at odds with most of humanity), but often just end up swirling the drain and *think* they have solved something. There is no ability to assess the reasonableness of the plans, so someone else's good idea is just another stab in the dark to them and seems like it's harder than it has to be (even though they themselves often really do make a lot of things harder than they have to be).

[Kuovonne]

35 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I am convinced that some people with EF issues have no concept of what to do when they encounter organizational help that is tailor made for them. 

This was my DD. She is the only one in the family with EF issues. She was super resistant to any attempt to help build her EF skills. She also gets bored doing the same thing over and over again.

My DH couldn’t comprehend EF issues and it also took years to get him to take her EF issues into account with his interactions with her, and I still have to remind him. 

35 minutes ago, kbutton said:

It's like turning down a drink of water when they are super thirsty and have even expressed a need--it's like they just take the water and dump it on some well-watered plants instead. It just fails to compute.

omg. This is my DD literally. She was a young teen and we were about to leave an event. As we were leaving there were “greeters” with baskets of cookies that they were handing out to people as they departed. I wanted a cookie so I took one, as did DH and my other kid. DD did not take one, which I thought was strange. Halfway to the car she mentioned that she wished she had a cookie. I suggested she go back and get one. She refused. We got in the car and I could see that she still wanted a cookie. I offered her my cookie. She refused. I suggested she go back and get one. She refused again. I offered to go back with her to get a cookie. She refused. Based on previous experience, I knew that she would pout for hours over the unfairness of everyone else getting a cookie except for her. I went back by myself to get her a cookie to show her how easy it was. When I got back, she accepted the cookie and at it. And we no longer had to deal with her pouting. So I solved the issue for her in the end because I knew her so well, but why the heck didn’t she just take a cookie in the first place?

[MEmama]

17 minutes ago, Kuovonne said:

This was my DD. She is the only one in the family with EF issues. She was super resistant to any attempt to help build her EF skills. She also gets bored doing the same thing over and over again.

My DH couldn’t comprehend EF issues and it also took years to get him to take her EF issues into account with his interactions with her, and I still have to remind him. 

omg. This is my DD literally. She was a young teen and we were about to leave an event. As we were leaving there were “greeters” with baskets of cookies that they were handing out to people as they departed. I wanted a cookie so I took one, as did DH and my other kid. DD did not take one, which I thought was strange. Halfway to the car she mentioned that she wished she had a cookie. I suggested she go back and get one. She refused. We got in the car and I could see that she still wanted a cookie. I offered her my cookie. She refused. I suggested she go back and get one. She refused again. I offered to go back with her to get a cookie. She refused. Based on previous experience, I knew that she would pout for hours over the unfairness of everyone else getting a cookie except for her. I went back by myself to get her a cookie to show her how easy it was. When I got back, she accepted the cookie and at it. And we no longer had to deal with her pouting. So I solved the issue for her in the end because I knew her so well, but why the heck didn’t she just take a cookie in the first place?

Perhaps, gently, because stubbornness and self sabotage are actually not uncommon traits in people with ADHD.

I'm not armchair diagnosing, of course, but there are *a lot* of signs to look out for besides the stereotypical ones like EF and boredom with repetitive tasks.

FWIW my DH was extremely unwilling to see the signs too. It took until DS was 19 to finally get diagnosed with the trifecta of ADHD, ASD, and anxiety.

Edited August 11, 2022 by MEmama

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Kuovonne said:

omg. This is my DD literally. She was a young teen and we were about to leave an event. As we were leaving there were “greeters” with baskets of cookies that they were handing out to people as they departed. I wanted a cookie so I took one, as did DH and my other kid. DD did not take one, which I thought was strange. Halfway to the car she mentioned that she wished she had a cookie. I suggested she go back and get one. She refused. We got in the car and I could see that she still wanted a cookie. I offered her my cookie. She refused. I suggested she go back and get one. She refused again. I offered to go back with her to get a cookie. She refused. Based on previous experience, I knew that she would pout for hours over the unfairness of everyone else getting a cookie except for her. I went back by myself to get her a cookie to show her how easy it was. When I got back, she accepted the cookie and at it. And we no longer had to deal with her pouting. So I solved the issue for her in the end because I knew her so well, but why the heck didn’t she just take a cookie in the first place?

This is one of my kids to a T. We have had so many of these experiences. Is there a chance your dd has high anxiety? Though the “pout for hours because everyone else got a cookie except for her” when it was her choice not to get one is part of a whole different thing we deal with, so might be for you as well. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by KSera

[Kuovonne]

4 hours ago, MEmama said:

because stubbornness and self sabotage are actually not uncommon traits in people with ADHD

DD has never had an official diagnosis. However, she and I both think she has ADHD.

3 hours ago, KSera said:

Is there a chance your dd has high anxiety?

Again, DD doesn't have an official diagnosis, but yes, she does also struggle with anxiety. That was why I offered to go with her to get the cookie. Sometimes that works. But it didn't that time. She also wants everyone to be happy. That is why she refused my cookie--she didn't want to deprive me.

DD is a sweet, talented, smart person. And most people outside of the family don't see her EF/ADHD/anxiety issues because she is so sweet, talented, and smart. She has some better coping mechanisms now, but her struggles are still real, and they limit what she can accomplish.

And reading this thread feels like acknowledgement that my struggles to help her are real as well.

[KSera]

7 minutes ago, Kuovonne said:

DD is a sweet, talented, smart person. And most people outside of the family don't see her EF/ADHD/anxiety issues because she is so sweet, talented, and smart. She has some better coping mechanisms now, but her struggles are still real, and they limit what she can accomplish.

It sounds like evaluations could be really helpful. I have another one who fits the sweet, talented, smart, other people don't see the issues profile as well (not my pouting over something that was her choice one lol), and evals were definitely helpful. It can be super helpful to have any diagnoses in place before college.

[Kuovonne]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

It can be super helpful to have any diagnoses in place before college.

She is already in college. Trying to get any diagnosis at this point would have be self-initiated by her. A diagnosis wouldn't provide her with any additional services, and she also doesn't need any academic accommodations. Maybe some meds would help, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

[MEmama]

6 minutes ago, KSera said:

It sounds like evaluations could be really helpful. I have another one who fits the sweet, talented, smart, other people don't see the issues profile as well (not my pouting over something that was her choice one lol), and evals were definitely helpful. It can be super helpful to have any diagnoses in place before college.

Seconding this.

I have…feelings…about waiting so long to get DS diagnosed. Like many gifted kids with an alphabet of diagnoses, he learned to mask early and was overlooked (by everyone but me) because he’s “so sweet, talented and smart”. Unfortunately we had to learn the hard way than when the supports fall away, so does everything else. It came at a huge cost. 

[Kuovonne]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

Unfortunately we had to learn the hard way than when the supports fall away, so does everything else.

I’ve been gradually easing her off supports for years. She seems to be doing okay in college now.

She has also proven that if nothing else, she can work a minimum wage job, buy groceries, and setup autopay for bills without any help from family. That relieved a lot of my worries. If she wants more than that for herself, I will support her in working towards more, but I won’t push her. (I want more than that for her, but again that’s another issue.)

1 hour ago, KSera said:

It sounds like evaluations could be really helpful.

We’re played with getting evals but nothing really panned out for a variety of reasons I don’t care to discuss here. Maybe she will choose to get evals on her own. If she does, I will support her, but it would have to be her choice. 

[Tree Frog]

20 hours ago, katilac said:

One great thing he could do is send him to professional training, if that's an option. Time management, project management, organization, that type of thing.

One of my employers in my early days sent me to many a Franklin Quest training, very big in those days, lol, and it definitely improved my planning and organizational skills. They're Franklin Planner now, and still offer a lot of trainings (live, webinar, etc). They have a very short free one that's actually a decent introduction to planning and prioritizing for people who greatly lack those skills. 

If training funds are very limited, some inexpensive and even free trainings can be found through places like the library or Coursera-type organizations. Even a workbook can be helpful. Written answers and notes should be absolutely required, no casual viewing or reading. 

For the job itself, I'd avoid trying to teach executive function principles in general (bc it's massively difficult) and keep it super-specific to the job.

If he doesn't have a handle on how long tasks take, then he needs to keep a time log and talk to 3 more experienced employees about recurring tasks (not just talk, but take notes). 

If he has trouble prioritizing tasks, then he needs to block out 45 minutes on Friday morning to plan and prioritize specific tasks for the following week. Friday afternoon, someone goes over it with him and points out what isn't practical, what is misprioritized, and so on. I say 'points out' but they should quickly be moving to a questioning method: I see a breakdown in tasks between C and E, look at them again and consider what it could be. Maybe E is assembling the widgets but there is no specific task for ordering the widgets. 

Same for planning projects: block out time and have a go, then someone else reviews and helps revise. 

It's important to make it blocking out the time and writing it down requirements. He needs to block the time so that he's ready for the review and not inconveniencing others who are helping him. He needs to write it down so that it's very clear what he's missing and where things aren't clear. Many people are extremely resistant to this, bc it's easier and more pleasant to think that things will go smoothly this time, and not write things down and not have to review where things might go wrong and not have to think things through and commit to a certain plan or set of tasks. 

This seems like a big time commitment from dh and other employees, but it would actually benefit them to have expectations, descriptions, and protocols in place for many tasks. Even more-organized people can get up to speed more quickly with written resources. 

 

IRT the bolded, employee makes checklists and knows what to do, but is easily distracted and forgets (?) to follow his checklist. When dh asks what he's working on (they have nearby desks), employee one time told him he's rebalancing his stock portfolio because employee's dad told him he needs to do so. I think dh may have come unglued at that response because employee was late getting to work that morning, what was on employee's checklist wasn't finished, and it didn't look like it was going to be completed that day.

For the last couple of weeks, dh has been asking employee each morning what he's going to do for the day. Usually he responds with a very generic response, so dh asks him to be specific. Sometimes it's like pulling teeth to get him to be specific enough. He says employee is doing better with knowing what to do next. 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Tree Frog

[Tree Frog]

On 8/9/2022 at 9:51 PM, PeterPan said:

The ideas in the articles will be good, but I will suggest it's really awkward to say (or walk into it thinking) it's the employer's job to figure out what is going wrong and figure out the employee's accommodations. That's what evals are for, and sometimes losing jobs repeatedly is the wake-up call that drives the person to get evals, get meds, and get their act together. 

Guess I'm kinda tough love on this. It's wonderful to support people, but they have to be doing their part, getting evals, recognizing their disabilities and weaknesses, asking for help, accepting supports. It's not the employer's fault if the employee was not diagnosed, was not given intervention, etc. etc. He has limits to what he can do and what he is morally responsible to do.

Dh feels he shouldn't need to make accommodations for employee and is likely frustrated I keep bringing up EF each time he tells me something. I was asking because I have been hearing daily what employee did each day that caused eye rolls. I thought there might be some easy strategies dh could use that would make working together easier. 

From examples I've heard, employee's parents may have smoothed things over for him while he was growing up. I've heard things about employee's dad that lead me to think dad might have similar issues, so his parents may not realize there is a significant problem. I feel for employee. I'm hoping when he's transferred, he's given either a simple job he can easily do or it's something that fascinates him so he can feel (and be) successful.

[katilac]

2 hours ago, Tree Frog said:

IRT the bolded, employee makes checklists and knows what to do, but is easily distracted and forgets (?) to follow his checklist. When dh asks what he's working on (they have nearby desks), employee one time told him he's rebalancing his stock portfolio because employee's dad told him he needs to do so. I think dh may have come unglued at that response because employee was late getting to work that morning, what was on employee's checklist wasn't finished, and it didn't look like it was going to be completed that day.

the response to this should be a clear warning that this isn't acceptable, and that it will escalate if it happens again. 

In this example, the boss should call him into his office later in the day and give him a verbal warning (which, ime, have always actually been written so they can go in the file, lol, but they are the mildest 'official' level of warning). The warning should say that employee was breaking rules by working on private matters instead of his job, that he understands that this is an official verbal warning, and than the next instance of breaking rules will result in a written warning. 

If he's habitually late, that should be addressed with separate escalating warnings. If he doesn't seem to get the seriousness of official warnings in his file, it might be best to put him on a performance improvement plan: these very specific things need to happen in order for your job to be safe (not being late, not working on private matters, getting agreed-upon priorities completed each week). 

Like I said before, I'm a big fan of professional training and development, but there's a difference between struggling to be efficient and organized and simply not working when you're supposed to work. And training and development is definitely more of a long-term assistantance, whereas some of these things need to be addressed right away. 

1 hour ago, Tree Frog said:

Dh feels he shouldn't need to make accommodations for employee and is likely frustrated I keep bringing up EF each time he tells me something. I was asking because I have been hearing daily what employee did each day that caused eye rolls. I thought there might be some easy strategies dh could use that would make working together easier. 

From examples I've heard, employee's parents may have smoothed things over for him while he was growing up. I've heard things about employee's dad that lead me to think dad might have similar issues, so his parents may not realize there is a significant problem. I feel for employee. I'm hoping when he's transferred, he's given either a simple job he can easily do or it's something that fascinates him so he can feel (and be) successful.

I think that things like helping him to prioritize and find holes in a list of tasks (that he made) are reasonable strategies, and not even so much accomodations as training. Some people will need more of Type X training, some will need more of Type Y. 

I want to touch a bit on parents smoothing the way, having supports in place, various things that you and others have mentioned, bc that's definitely not a negative thing in and of itself. Outside-provided supports and accomodations are perfectly sensible things to have in place while a young person is growing and maturing, and lots of ADD/ADHD kids are going to be miserable and feel like failures without them. They're not going to magically remember to always bring their lunch to school because they went hungry one day; they're going to keep forgetting and keep being hungry, they're just not going to mention it anymore. 

Ideally, those skills are being explicitly taught and practiced along the way, and the young person gradually becomes more responsible for creating their own accomodations - because the need for accomodations may never go away, but they should be working on finding out what works for them and gradually learning to manage it themselves. Smart app routines can be created once (and occassionally refined), but then they help every single day. 

The benefits of parents/teachers providing accomodations and supports is not just the ability to succeed in the moment (although that is very important), but also that it can take many years of trying things to see what works. If a parent tries out various supports over the years, discarding some and refining others, it's more likely that they will develop a good sense of the type of things that work for them. Knowing that Alexa-style routines and reminders work is valuable information, lnowing that visual planning and visual reminders work is valuable information, but it can take a lot of time and effort to figure this out. It's perfectly appropriate for adults to take the lead on this in the younger years, bc the level of persistence and maturity to try a hundred things to find seven that work can't be expected of a young person. 

So, that's my lengthy way of saying to not throw out the baby with the bath water. Don't dismiss the idea of supports just bc some people fall hard when they are taken away; they may have done better as young adults if certain supports had been removed at just the right times and just the right levels, but they also might not have. You just can't know, but what you can know is that kids with real issues of this type were not going to gain superior executive function skills just bc they weren't given any accomodations or scaffolding along the way. Sometimes young adults have a really rough go of  it, not just in this way but in many others, and we have to let go of the idea that it's always the result of things the parents did or didn't do. We can do our best, and our kids can do their best, and there can still be struggles and hard times. 

[Kuovonne]

4 hours ago, Tree Frog said:

Dh feels he shouldn't need to make accommodations for employee and is likely frustrated I keep bringing up EF each time he tells me something.

Sounds like how my DH felt about my DD. He thought he should be able to tell her something and she should be able to follow through on her own. After several years, he realized I was right when I told him that she needed more scaffolding. 

 

It also took years for him to understand that DD needed to have initial scaffolding for a baseline of success, combined with the gradual removal of that scaffolding, and occasionally allowing her to fail when the repercussions for the family as a whole were minimal. It has been and continues to be a tightrope in both dealing with DD and teaching DH how to deal with DD. And I got accused of being both a control freak (for setting up the scaffolding) and inconsistent (for removing the scaffolding or searching for different scaffolding that works better).

 

[Tree Frog]

13 hours ago, katilac said:

Like I said before, I'm a big fan of professional training and development, but there's a difference between struggling to be efficient and organized and simply not working when you're supposed to work. And training and development is definitely more of a long-term assistantance, whereas some of these things need to be addressed right away. 

I believeprofessional training and development have already been addressed. I don't think dh can ask for further training.

[Tree Frog]

14 hours ago, katilac said:

I want to touch a bit on parents smoothing the way, having supports in place, various things that you and others have mentioned, bc that's definitely not a negative thing in and of itself. Outside-provided supports and accomodations are perfectly sensible things to have in place while a young person is growing and maturing, and lots of ADD/ADHD kids are going to be miserable and feel like failures without them. They're not going to magically remember to always bring their lunch to school because they went hungry one day; they're going to keep forgetting and keep being hungry, they're just not going to mention it anymore. 

Agreed. I believe employee may feel like a failure in this job.

14 hours ago, katilac said:

Ideally, those skills are being explicitly taught and practiced along the way, and the young person gradually becomes more responsible for creating their own accomodations - because the need for accomodations may never go away, but they should be working on finding out what works for them and gradually learning to manage it themselves. Smart app routines can be created once (and occassionally refined), but then they help every single day. 

My concern in this case is that employee didn't become more responsible for his own accommodations. It sounds like Mom and Dad are still smoothing the way for employee, possibly not recognizing what's going on. I'm projecting a bit based on what dh tells me, but employee doesn't seem to have recognition that he needs to set up some systems to help himself. I believe dh is trying to help him set up his own supports. 

14 hours ago, katilac said:

The benefits of parents/teachers providing accomodations and supports is not just the ability to succeed in the moment (although that is very important), but also that it can take many years of trying things to see what works. If a parent tries out various supports over the years, discarding some and refining others, it's more likely that they will develop a good sense of the type of things that work for them. Knowing that Alexa-style routines and reminders work is valuable information, lnowing that visual planning and visual reminders work is valuable information, but it can take a lot of time and effort to figure this out. It's perfectly appropriate for adults to take the lead on this in the younger years, bc the level of persistence and maturity to try a hundred things to find seven that work can't be expected of a young person. 

So, that's my lengthy way of saying to not throw out the baby with the bath water. Don't dismiss the idea of supports just bc some people fall hard when they are taken away; they may have done better as young adults if certain supports had been removed at just the right times and just the right levels, but they also might not have. You just can't know, but what you can know is that kids with real issues of this type were not going to gain superior executive function skills just bc they weren't given any accomodations or scaffolding along the way. Sometimes young adults have a really rough go of  it, not just in this way but in many others, and we have to let go of the idea that it's always the result of things the parents did or didn't do. We can do our best, and our kids can do their best, and there can still be struggles and hard times. 

I"m not meaning to blame the parents and I'm truly sorry if it came across that way.  I mentioned the parents because a pp said adhd/EF can run in families and they may not have realized there was an issue. We all do the best we can with our and the child's abilities. I wish there were a simplier way to help employee and all struggling EF kids and adults.

I'm glad this discussion has been helpful for other posters. My question has been answered, soI will continue to read it, I will likely stop posting in this thread.

[PeterPan]

On 8/11/2022 at 3:43 PM, Kuovonne said:

Trying to get any diagnosis at this point would have be self-initiated by her. A diagnosis wouldn't provide her with any additional services,

Yes, when it's her question she's asking, help her get the evals. But you should know that the most severe EF merges into an ASD diagnosis, which means you're wanting a psych with experience with women on the spectrum. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Tree Frog said:

Agreed. I believe employee may feel like a failure in this job.

We might feel bad about that, but it's a normal reaction if it's the truth. It's actually a good thing, way better than being oblivious or, worse yet, blameshifting. Once someone recognizes they have an issue and want help they're in a much better position to find it. 

 

On 8/10/2022 at 2:53 PM, Danae said:

He should absolutely not suggest anything related to a potential diagnoses.  And he should not mention discussing the employee with his wife.  He can say things directly related to job performance and suggest strategies to address them.  

Exactly. Employer is not friend, parent, or anything else. Employer has limits and sometimes your hands are tied on what you can do.

 

1 hour ago, Tree Frog said:

I wish there were a simplier way to help employee and all struggling EF kids and adults.

There are job training services, vocational rehab, all sorts of services for this. There are orgs that help employers. It's not like there are no resources, but reality is people fall through the cracks, don't qualify, are strong enough that they don't get diagnosed early, etc. It's this way with everything. 

I guess I'm just b&w on this. It's business. 

Total aside, but it's why the Bible suggests that increasing knowledge leads to sadness. We KNOW what we're seeing sometimes, so it makes us sad that we can't do anything about it. Sigh.

Edited August 12, 2022 by PeterPan

[katilac]

10 hours ago, Tree Frog said:

 I"m not meaning to blame the parents and I'm truly sorry if it came across that way.  

No, it was more that there was a cluster of responses mentioning supports and smoothing the way, and I just wanted to counterbalance that with saying that scaffolding and so on are not negatives in and of themselves. I used your post as a general jumping-off point.

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

There are job training services, vocational rehab, all sorts of services for this. There are orgs that help employers. It's not like there are no resources, but reality is people fall through the cracks, don't qualify, are strong enough that they don't get diagnosed early, etc. It's this way with everything. 

You live in a very resource-rich area. Many others live in areas where there are definitenly not "all sorts of services" even for those who seek them out, have the dx, and so on. 

I think you're actually saying that it's hard even when all sorts of services exist, and I agree that it is, but I never miss the chance to point out that states are very disparate in the services they offer - in general, and then even more specifically where schools/youth are concerned. I'm not neccesarily a fan of the American tradition of hyper-local school district decisions and policies.