Smaller Family

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I didn't. I extrapolated (and own that) b/c I assume you're a voter. If you're not, you can say so and I'll retract that part of my commentary.

I've been voting for 37 years, and so far I've never seen a candidate or issue on the ballot where "young adult sterilizations" was a consideration, let alone a sufficient one to change my vote.

So do you read all comments on WTM through a translator that declares "this is the opinion I would vote into law if I could"?

Most life decisions, and related opinions, are not legislated.  Nor do most people want it that way.

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Misogyny, white Christian nationalism and pro-baby zeitgeist is the primary reason for anti-reproductive choice policy. That's a taboo topic tho. All babies, all the time. Anyone who's DONE with that stage is a demon.

Well, ignoring the logical contradictions here, you're entitled to your opinions.

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

So do you read all comments on WTM through a translator that declares "this is the opinion I would vote into law if I could"?

Most life decisions, and related opinions, are not legislated.  Nor do most people want it that way.

To the bolded, yes. Because my experience is that what gets expressed as 'opinion' often becomes the legislation pursued by majority groups.

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I think it's becoming much more common because many of my unmarried cousins in their 20s and 30s have had vasectomies and thus a conscious choice not to procreate also. A vasectomy out of pocket is about $700 here.

While some of them have made family limiting choices out of environmental or ethical reasons, some have made that out of financial ones also.  They cannot take on formula/diaper/daycare costs when they are barely making their own rent. My cousin's wife (who had breast cancer and therefore cannot breastfeed) is currently paying $800/month for formula and $3600/month for part time daycare for their two kids. It is not cheaper for her to stay home in the long run, and she can't afford to step out of the working/promotion lineup for a few years.

A lot of older (boomer generation) people cannot wrap their brains around how much life has changed from their own experiences to what Gen Z is facing....especially financially. Nor do they believe in climate change and how it is impacting life (and I mean impacting life now) and how it will impact it in the future.

 

I understand what you're saying, but I do think it's very sad that young adults in their early 20s would choose to be sterilized because they can't afford to have children at that time. Situations can change a lot as the years go by, and a broke 20yo may not be a broke 30yo. 

I do believe they should be allowed to make that choice; I'm not questioning their right to do it at all! It's just that I would hate to see a 20yo make that kind of decision primarily based on their current financial situation, because they have so many years ahead of them for that financial situation to (hopefully) change for the better.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Well, ignoring the logical contradictions here, you're entitled to your opinions.

If you're so inclined to point out the contradictions, I'd appreciate it. Proponents may be more likely to hear them outlined by you than me.

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

To the bolded, yes. Because my experience is that what gets expressed as 'opinion' often becomes the legislation pursued by majority groups.

Only majority groups?  Because when you say that's how you read what others write, it leads me to believe that's how I should read what you write.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, SKL said:

Only majority groups?  Because when you say that's how you read what others write, it leads me to believe that's how I should read what you write.

No, ma'am. I think you should absolutely read what I write as representative of a significant minority of people that you're unfamiliar with. It's how you learn to know/appreciate your opposition and anticipate their counter arguments.

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

No, ma'am. I think you should absolutely read what I write as representative of a significant minority of people that you're unfamiliar with. It's how you learn to know/appreciate your opposition and anticipate their counter arguments.

FTR I wasn't unfamiliar with the fact that some people think anyone at any age should be able to get sterilized.  I'm not unfamiliar with their reasoning.  I'm sure you'd agree this is far from a novel discussion.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, SKL said:

FTR I wasn't unfamiliar with the fact that some people think anyone at any age should be able to get sterilized.  I'm not unfamiliar with their reasoning.  I'm sure you'd agree this is far from a novel discussion.

I do agree. It's not a novel discussion. It has taken on far more import of late as I'm sure you'd also agree. The consequences of pregnancy/outcomes have changed.

[prairiewindmomma]

6 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I understand what you're saying, but I do think it's very sad that young adults in their early 20s would choose to be sterilized because they can't afford to have children at that time. Situations can change a lot as the years go by, and a broke 20yo may not be a broke 30yo. 

I do believe they should be allowed to make that choice; I'm not questioning their right to do it at all! It's just that I would hate to see a 20yo make that kind of decision primarily based on their current financial situation, because they have so many years ahead of them for that financial situation to (hopefully) change for the better.

The people I know who've done it for financial reasons are in their 30s.  The people who are doing it in their 20s (generally late 20s) are doing it out of strong ethical positions or because of family genetics. These aren't impulsive decisions, just a hard look at reality based on their own experiences and on watching what their siblings and cousins that have chosen to have kids are going through or have gone through. 

These aren't people who hate children. Nor are most of them "liberals". 

 

[madteaparty]

8 hours ago, TexasProud said:

So for those of you encouraging your children not to have children, what will happen to them in old age?  Who will take care of them?  I mean the bulk of mom's care is coming to me, but my sister IS helping as much as she possibly can.  But I worry about my kids if they don't have their own kids to help them when they get older. I mean if oldest doesn't but the other two do, then their kids can help take care of them.  That is what I see are some single elderly aunts being taken care of by grand nieces and nephews. But if no one has kids...

Flights to Switzerland for me at least.

I’m not involved in my children’s  family planning but nor do I expect them to care for me in old age. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by madteaparty

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

I understand what you're saying, but I do think it's very sad that young adults in their early 20s would choose to be sterilized because they can't afford to have children at that time. Situations can change a lot as the years go by, and a broke 20yo may not be a broke 30yo. 

I do believe they should be allowed to make that choice; I'm not questioning their right to do it at all! It's just that I would hate to see a 20yo make that kind of decision primarily based on their current financial situation, because they have so many years ahead of them for that financial situation to (hopefully) change for the better.

I do think that “kids” in their 20s are looking long term, and seeing plenty of signs that the economic issues they face are unlikely to drastically improve in the next 10-15 years. 

They know their parents have been begging for affordable health care, child care, and a million other life improvements these past 20+ years with little to no movement. 

[Frances]

Similar story in my family. My dad, MIL, and FIL were all the oldest of five. They and their siblings had zero, one, two, or three children, with zero and two being the most common. Their children have had zero, one, or two children with one being the most common. Of the five grandchildren in both families now, I only expect two to potentially have children, so zero will be the most common.

[Ann.without.an.e]

I have 12 first cousins and DH has at least that many. My kids have no cousins. None of our siblings have married or had kids and they have no wish or plan to have them. 

[Carrie12345]

4 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I have 12 first cousins and DH has at least that many. My kids have no cousins. None of our siblings have married or had kids and they have no wish or plan to have them. 

I don’t even know how many first cousins my mom has. Well into the teens on my grandmother’s side, and plenty more on my grandfather’s. (He was 1 of 5.)
Meanwhile, I have 5* first cousins, total. And two of those are near my son’s age.

*Somehow, 1 of the 4 boys from the woman my gay uncle was married to for a year or two in the late 80s/early 90s managed to get included in my grandmother’s obituary as the first grandchild listed, so I guess it could be argued that someone thinks I have 6.
 

My kids also have 5 from our “main” siblings. And then my step-father’s son has 3 (including his step-son), and his step-daughter from a previous marriage has 3. And then my bio-father’s former step-daughters have one and two.

Through multiple marriages, I guess our tree has technically re-expanded, but it’s also led to, um… some pruning when it comes to active relationships vs. being related.

[Wheres Toto]

I was older when I had my tubes tied but it was still a purely elective surgery.  The insurance company paid for it.   

I do think this may vary from state to state.  NJ has a bunch of stuff that insurance companies are required to cover that doesn't seem to be the case in other states.  

[Wheres Toto]

I have somewhere around 30-35 first cousins.  My oldest daughter has NO first cousins.  Neither my brother nor my ex's brother has any kids.     I have first cousins that are very close to my oldest daughter's age so they served the usual role of cousins for her.

My younger two kids have 8 or 9 first cousins on dh's side (none on my side) but all of them are much older than they are, some are close to my age.   

MIL had 3 children, 10 or 11 grandchildren, around 15 great grandchildren, and 2 great-great-grandchild when she passed.  

My mother has 2 children, 3 grandchildren and no greats at all.

[Laura Corin]

21 hours ago, regentrude said:

Plenty of us are raising families without extended family support. It's not always possible - for a variety of reasons. And it wasn't all rosy in the past either (both my grandmother and great-grandmother were war widows)

Partners. Spouses. Friends.
(ETA: Many of my friends don't have children - it's not like that is a new idea of the young generation)

Yes.  My mother was born in Uganda in 1924 and her parents were from Devon, so no family support there; they had household help but not emotional back up.  Then neither of my parents lived near family when we were small - they had moved away from Devon for work. 

I was visiting my mother last night in her nursing home and the nurse told me that it's all the daughters (in her experience) who turn up to take care/supervise care.  So it's not only those who don't have children who may rely on professional care, but disproportionately those who don't have daughters.  There are data to back this up:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140819082912.htm

[BlsdMama]

20 hours ago, J-rap said:

It's interesting how times have changed, and I'm sure they'll continue changing.  But for my generation, no one seemed to even think about NOT having children.  It was just a natural path.  If there happened to be a random person who was married but chose not to have children, the older generation thought they were selfish. 

Now, I see many young married couples choosing to not have children, or at least not thinking of it as their main goal as a couple... but certainly not for selfish reasons.  They care about a lot of things ~ the planet, helping others, and maybe don't like the way the world is today and worry about bringing up children in it.   I think it's good that couples are realizing that they have a choice.

I do love the extended family structure.  I used to take it more lightly but have appreciated it more as I get older.  We've learned to put aside our differences when necessary, and always be there for each other and also for each other's kids.  My adult children know they always have many layers of support.

But, I know you can have that type of structure and support that's non-family as well.  Maybe it takes a little more work to cultivate, maybe not.

Re: old age.  I certainly don't expect my children to physically care for me when I'm old and infirm, but I know they'll make sure I'm being well taken care of wherever I end up.  

You bring up a good point. When I was growing up, I never questioned whether I’d have kids or not, it was more about the number. (I liked the idea of a “big” family of 4-6 while DH wanted an only.)

 

 In our stage of life, we note think more about how we can pitch in for DD #1. She is amazingly capable but we love the opportunity to help her even if it’s just date night or getting to take 1 to a doctor appointment rather than 4.  That was something missing from my life, partly from choice during times living away, but largely because my mom and his mom worked full time out of the home. I think that is a consideration of young couples too- they will largely raise their kids without family assistance. 
 

Since most of us homeschooled, I make a big assumption that we cultivated friends and community? I don’t often see the same among families that work full time but maybe that’sa dumb assumption? My parents did not cultivate new friends in their adult lives but maybe that’s because they were full of sibling friends?

[Scarlett]

My family tree is completely whacked because at age 72 my mom found out the man who she thought was her father….who raised her….was indeed not her bio father.

My maternal grandmother was one of 12 kids so I have no idea how many cousins my mom has just in that side.  Out of the 5 siblings my mom was raised with my brother and I have 8 cousins. And the 10 of us cousins have 30 kids.  Several had 5 and 6, two had zero and two had 1.

interesting.  

Edited July 27, 2022 by Scarlett

[regentrude]

35 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

Since most of us homeschooled, I make a big assumption that we cultivated friends and community? I don’t often see the same among families that work full time but maybe that’s a dumb assumption? My parents did not cultivate new friends in their adult lives but maybe that’s because they were full of sibling friends?

From my personal experience, I see no basis for such an assumption.
I work, and all my friends work, too, and we do cultivate friendships and make new friends.

Edited July 27, 2022 by regentrude

[Condessa]

Large extended families are common in my religious subculture.  In college I had a similar conversation with my 5 roommates one time, and I had the fewest cousins by far (8 surviving cousins at that time, 10 now).  My dad is an only child.  My mom is one of four, and her brothers had 4, 8, and 0 kids, but each brother with a family lost a child.  One generation further back, though, it was reversed.  My mother had 2 cousins, as one grandparent was an only child and the other had one sibling.  On my dad’s side, I don’t even know how many cousins he has.  4 on grandma’s side.  Grandpa was one of 13 kids, so no idea how many cousins on that side.

I’m one of 5.  My oldest sister and I each have 5 kids.  My second sister is probably not going to have children.  My younger brothers are both fairly recently married and planning on having children.  One wants 1 or 2, the other is talking about 3 biological kids and adopting some siblings as well.  My kids’ generation will probably be the same or a little bigger than the last generation on my mom’s side.

 

[BlsdMama]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

From my personal experience, I see no basis for such an assumption.
I work, and all my friends work, too, and we do cultivate friendships and make new friends.

It may be my own personal experience.  I didn't realize my mom was an extreme introvert growing up.  She has never cultivated friendships - not once.  I recognize (now) it's hard for her to meet new people and then let them in.  DH doesn't make close friendships at work and instead his friendships are more extensions of my friendships.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

16 minutes ago, regentrude said:

From my personal experience, I see no basis for such an assumption.
I work, and all my friends work, too, and we do cultivate friendships and make new friends.

I think it depends on personality.  I don’t really have any friends because I am too tired to find and participate in activities where I could meet people  while working full time and raising three kids.  But DH is very introverted and truly does not want friends, so that’s not even on his radar.

My homeschooling acquaintences locally do seem to have a strong friend community through co-ops, hybrid school and homeschool activities.

But probably it’s mostly personality. I am lonely though.

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

Since most of us homeschooled, I make a big assumption that we cultivated friends and community? I don’t often see the same among families that work full time but maybe that’sa dumb assumption? My parents did not cultivate new friends in their adult lives but maybe that’s because they were full of sibling friends?

 

21 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

It may be my own personal experience.  I didn't realize my mom was an extreme introvert growing up.  She has never cultivated friendships - not once.  I recognize (now) it's hard for her to meet new people and then let them in.  DH doesn't make close friendships at work and instead his friendships are more extensions of my friendships.

My parents are introverts but made friends with their colleagues. In fact, a close family friend was an ex-colleague of my dad (teacher). My husband is also an introvert and has friends from his previous company and current one. My working friends who are more outgoing have friends in hobbies on top of friends from work, they have hiking clubs, book clubs, film clubs and all that. I still have friends who I worked with decades ago and my current friends have kids in public schools and private schools. I actually don’t cultivate friends and community purposely just because I am a SAHM or due to homeschooling. Neither is my identity. My teens identify themselves as teens, not homeschoolers, and make friends based on gut feel. It really does come down to personality and life experiences. 

My neighbor is a single working lady around my age and she makes more effort to cultivate friendships anywhere because she has no relatives here. Its a survival need. My neighbors who are working and have relatives here doesn’t have that urgency though they have plenty of friends as well. I live in a condo complex so people who don’t mind living in a condo do tend to be used to communal living and making friends while taking the same elevator to and from the garage. 

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

ince most of us homeschooled, I make a big assumption that we cultivated friends and community? I don’t often see the same among families that work full time but maybe that’sa dumb assumption? My parents did not cultivate new friends in their adult lives but maybe that’s because they were full of sibling friends?

My parents had neighborhood friends, church friends, camp friends, scout friends, and a few childhood friends. There was some overlap in there.

To be fair, my mom had some periods of being a sahm, but not long term. 

[Condessa]

I think there’s some confusion that’s conflating anti-abortion sentiment with anti-sterilization.  In general, a majority of pro-life/anti-abortion proponents tend to be in favor of preventing unwanted pregnancies rather than ending existing ones.  I recently read an article from a liberal perspective about rising sterilization rates in response to abortion laws.  It portrayed this as a negative effect.  But as a pro-life reader, I think it is wonderful if people who know they don’t want children are preventing instead of killing in utero.

[frogger]

Everyone wants something different and has different priorities which is ok.

Everyone thinks they can just get professional help when they age but if the majority of people are older and need help rather than give it, there is going to be a major labor shortage. Robots can help somewhat but I think it will be more complicated than people realize. So I do worry about my children's future. 

 

ETA At least we have the opportunity to watch other countries lead the way which might give us clues on how to handle it.

Edited July 27, 2022 by frogger

[Kanin]

23 hours ago, J-rap said:

It's interesting how times have changed, and I'm sure they'll continue changing.  But for my generation, no one seemed to even think about NOT having children.  It was just a natural path.  If there happened to be a random person who was married but chose not to have children, the older generation thought they were selfish. 

 

I've never understood how it would be selfish to not have children. Is the thinking that the people are so self-involved that they can't care about children, or something? Or they are too selfish to take on responsibility? 

 

[Arcadia]

15 minutes ago, Kanin said:

I've never understood how it would be selfish to not have children. Is the thinking that the people are so self-involved that they can't care about children, or something? Or they are too selfish to take on responsibility? 

I think it is more of the “taking” during old age of services issue. My grandparents subsidized healthcare (not US) was funded by tax revenues including income tax. So if my children’s generation is smaller than my parents generation, the burden would likely be borne by less working people. Japan is what many look at to see how they would deal with an aging population and low birth rate. 

[Clarita]

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I think it is more of the “taking” during old age of services issue. My grandparents subsidized healthcare (not US) was funded by tax revenues including income tax. So if my children’s generation is smaller than my parents generation, the burden would likely be borne by less working people. Japan is what many look at to see how they would deal with an aging population and low birth rate. 

I've heard China and Hong Kong have a bit of that issue too. China gets a bit more extreme and amplified because of one child policy compounded with a preference for male children at the time.

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I think it is more of the “taking” during old age of services issue. My grandparents subsidized healthcare (not US) was funded by tax revenues including income tax. So if my children’s generation is smaller than my parents generation, the burden would likely be borne by less working people. Japan is what many look at to see how they would deal with an aging population and low birth rate. 

Ah. I can see that, but there's the flipside is that people with kids use other services, like public schools, food assistance, medical assistance, for kids. I think most families end up using a variety of services throughout their lifetimes. 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, Clarita said:

I've heard China and Hong Kong have a bit of that issue too. China gets a bit more extreme and amplified because of one child policy compounded with a preference for male children at the time.

China’s one child policy was more on urban, densely populated areas. Also, friends around my age (late 40s to early 50s) who live in the big cities paid a fine to have two children. The preference for male babies affects not just China. China’s issue is a lot more complicated than one child policy because of its land size, income inequalities and the urban/rural development gap. City Chinese folks would be willing to marry ladies from rural areas as well as from neighboring Vietnam, Thailand, Myanmar. Rural Chinese folks have a harder time finding a spouse.

Hong Kong wasn’t affected by the one child policy. They do have preferences for male babies like all traditional patriarchal type societies. After all the males pass down the family name. My in-laws definitely prefer grandsons 内孙 (sons of their sons) because of family name. Their daughter has only daughters and they don’t care but they are upset over their older son having daughters (two daughters and one son).

My mom passed in April. She had a simple Buddhist funeral. Still tradition dictates that the eldest son carries the photo of the deceased parent during the funeral prayers ritual unless there are no sons in which case a male relative younger than the deceased may do the duty.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Arcadia
typo

[Jhwk21]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:46 AM, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Nursing homes and social workers. I don’t expect my three kids to take care of me, but I also know that, frankly, people who have lots of family in and out get better care in the nursing home.  And it’s really important to have someone advocate for you.  I expect to wind up in a nursing home but hopefully my kids will be involved. My mom has been taking care of her parents almost full time for four or five years now and it’s taken a huge toll on her, but that side of my family is very against nursing homes and won’t consider it at all.

Exactly this for me, too. I don't expect any of my kids to take care of me when I'm older nor do I want them to. I don't even want them to ever somehow feel like they should. And while I also believe it should be entirely their choice whether to have kids or not, and I will support them whatever they do, I certainly don't expect them to nor will I ever encourage them to do so. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Jhwk21

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

China’s one child policy was more on urban, densely populated areas. Also, friends around my age (late 40s to early 50s) who live in the big cities paid a fine to have two children. The preference for male babies affects not just China. China’s issue is a lot more complicated than one child policy because of its land size, income inequalities and the urban/rural development gap. City Chinese folks would be willing to marry ladies from rural areas as well as from neighboring Vietnam, Thailand, Myanmar. Rural Chinese folks have a harder time finding a spouse.

Hong Kong wasn’t affected by the one child policy. They do have preferences for male babies like all traditional patriarchal type societies. After all the males pass down the family name. My in-laws definitely prefer grandsons 内孙 (sons of their sons) because of family name. Their daughter has only daughters and they don’t care but they are upset over their older son having daughters (two daughters and one son).

Yes China's issue with lack of children is a lot of issues that all work to cause men in rural China not to even be able to find spouses.

Hong Kong is not affected by one child policy just and is more a normal people want 2 or less children. When I was born my grandmother preferred boys but by the time my cousins were born 11 years later she just wanted grandchildren and had no more preferences. I feel like by my mom's generation the moms actually preferred girl babies because daughters were thought to actually take care of their parents in their old age (now that they had a choice to). The dad's still cared about the name thing, but the mom's didn't care.

[SKL]

7 hours ago, regentrude said:

From my personal experience, I see no basis for such an assumption.
I work, and all my friends work, too, and we do cultivate friendships and make new friends.

Yeah, I had work friends who developed into real friends.  I probably had more casual friends before I had kids, because I had a bit of time to invest in those relationships, like going to lunch together or working together on a charitable venture.  I lost almost all my work friends (gradually) after I lost the ability to meet people for lunch (without kids in tow).

[Arcadia]

39 minutes ago, Clarita said:

. I feel like by my mom's generation the moms actually preferred girl babies because daughters were thought to actually take care of their parents in their old age (now that they had a choice to). The dad's still cared about the name thing, but the mom's didn't care.

I think it depends on circumstances. My maternal aunt took care of her dad because she doesn’t have in-laws to take care of and her mom had passed.  My friend’s husband parents passed before their marriage so she never had to decide. My mom couldn’t take care of her dad because she still have to take care of my paternal grandma, taking turns with all the DILs (dad’s brothers’ wives). My brother’s in-laws are in China but his wife and all her sisters are in other countries, his wife’s brother is taking care of the elders. My maternal aunt is being taken care of by one of her sons who has retired, her only daughter who is single and in her late 50s is still working long hours in cybersecurity. There is the stereotypical belief that daughters are more 贴心 (heartwarming). 

[Arcadia]

@Clarita along the same line of thought, I wish traditional Chinese parents don’t treat their children as insurance for old age. Being in the sandwich generation is something I hope dies in my generation. Being treated as ATMs is a big reason to keep our kids away from their grandparents.

[Laura Corin]

I was musing about the local cemetery that I walk through. It has legible graves back to the early 19th century. There are several grave plots housing one man, his two wives and many children, some of whom died early but others lived long.  Before modern medicine, there were often large blended families when a first wife died, the father remarried someone who would look after the children,  then more children were born.

Fast forward to the late 20th century - my parents divorced and my father ended up with five children, three from the first marriage and two from the second, which is more children than in the previous generation. 

So I'm wondering whether there is a pattern in the West or maybe just the UK like :

pre-20th century - lots of large blended families caused by parental death.

early-mid-20th century - better health care, some contraceptive availability, divorce is not common  - smaller un-blended families 

late-20th-to-21st century - good health care and contraception but more divorce - the resurgence of larger blended families. 

[DawnM]

My mom was the oldest of 6 children.   Each of them had 2 children except my mom, who had 1 (me.).  Among the 11 cousins, there are 24 grands.   

My dad was the middle of 5.   Each of his siblings had 3 children, except him (he had only me.).  And then there are 32 grands.

 

 

[BlsdMama]

20 hours ago, frogger said:

Everyone wants something different and has different priorities which is ok.

Everyone thinks they can just get professional help when they age but if the majority of people are older and need help rather than give it, there is going to be a major labor shortage. Robots can help somewhat but I think it will be more complicated than people realize. So I do worry about my children's future. 

 

ETA At least we have the opportunity to watch other countries lead the way which might give us clues on how to handle it.

This is a good point.  We had friends who wanted to keep their parent in the home and have someone come in every other day for a few hours and would have had to pay astronomical rates.   My daughter works as a PRN CNA - essentially on call.  She picks up shifts as they are attractive -i.e., double time.  She doesn't need benefits so there is no compelling reason to commit to hours now when her hourly rate is regularly doubled due to a severe demand for CNA work.

[frogger]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

This is a good point.  We had friends who wanted to keep their parent in the home and have someone come in every other day for a few hours and would have had to pay astronomical rates.   My daughter works as a PRN CNA - essentially on call.  She picks up shifts as they are attractive -i.e., double time.  She doesn't need benefits so there is no compelling reason to commit to hours now when her hourly rate is regularly doubled due to a severe demand for CNA work.

I think it is even worse than that. It isn't just nursing staff that is needed it is that as people retire there is a smaller workforce to do neccessary tasks. How hard will it be to find someone to farm, roof your home, plow the streets if the majority of people are elderly? People think in terms of money now and have a hard time understanding that money is just paper. It doesn't actually feed, house, or heal you. Money does nothing, people do. 

Children are the future of a country and if you don't have children, the future is bleak. Right now immigration is a huge blessing to help even things out in the USA. I wish we could open it up more. People obviously want to come so it seems a win win.  Japan is looking at getting more foreign workers as we speak but what happens when most countries have an elderly population? We can't all import actual workers from elsewhere. 

The world is pretty crowded. A gradual population decline wouldn't hurt. Population levels falling off a cliff though is a very bad thing. 

I'm not concerned about my children taking care of me. What I'm really concerned about is them becoming slaves to a giant elderly voting block.

I will add, I wish there were more government support for families. Bigger tax credits is the simplest so people could use that money towards daycare OR anything else depending on their circumstances. No one should feel they have to have kids but we could certainly help those who want to have children but realize it is extremely expensive. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by frogger

[fairfarmhand]

On 7/26/2022 at 12:11 PM, Sneezyone said:

Really?? I don't need or expect/demand my kids visit me/dh in our old age. I don't feel like they owe me anything. They didn't ask to come here. They're not in my debt for being born. I WANT them to WANT to connect because DH and I still have something valuable to offer and I WANT them to perceive/appreciate that value. DH and I, in terms of location/household amenities and advice, are planning with that in mind. We fully expect to be independent adults and I've told my kids to travel, and live full lives BEYOND us. We've told them to put us in a senior home together vs. turning their lives upside down. DH and I are planning to pay for it tho. We HOPE they'll visit. We WANT their company but I'm not gonna quibble if they want me in a home down the street for easy access for ex. I'd just as soon pack my bags and move in with my bestie if DH is gone and my kids aren't amenable.

I do not expect my children to care for me. I want them to want to be around me and do things for me because they love me.

I've seen how the "expect" tends to play out when the older person no longer feels an obligation to be civil and kind because "I raised you, you owe me". Then the younger person often puts up with poor behavior because that's what is expected.

I plan on STAYING a lovely, kind, considerate person so MAYBE my children and grandchildren will take pleasure in keeping me company and caring for me in whatever ways they are capable. 

[Ellie]

My mother was one of only two dc, so a family picture would be my maternal grandparents, two daughters, and their two spouses. My mother had four dc, my aunt had two. One of my brothers and I have two dc each, one brother has only one, and one brother has five; this brother has over 20 grandchildren, because his children love babies. 🙂  FTR, I have only one grandchild, and he will be the only grandchild.

[HS Mom in NC]

Mom (born '45) only surviving child, older sis died in infancy
                          her parents (born '22)  had 9 and 6 siblings
                          has 2 bio kids who have 2 &3 kids each,  3 step-kids with 0, 2, & 4 kids each

Dad (born '43)   6 surviving siblings who had 0-4 known children, he didn't maintain much    contact with them in adulthood
                          parents born in late 19teens and early 1920s
                          has 2 kids who have 2 & 3 kids each,  3 former step-kids with 1, 2, & 4 known kids each

Me (born '73)    1 bio sibling
                          3 current step-siblings
                          3 former step-siblings
                          has 3 kids: 2 bio & 1 adopted immigrant

My 2 married adult bio kids have no plans for children due to serious inheritable medical issues. Oldest has bipolar diagnosis, a nervous system disorder, and has severe emotional reactions to hormonal changes while her husband, raised by addicts  has 3 generations of bipolar and his own mental health issues (not bipolar) going on. They are seeking sterilization at 26 years old. They're considering foster care for teens in the far off future if their treatments result in long term stabilization.

Middle adult daughter is married to someone with a severe genetic issue that caused neurological issues in his estranged bio-dad that resulted in several years of paralysis.  The spouse showed symptoms (not paralysis) during engagement, which is unusual; it usually shows up in late 30s at the earliest. Since middle daughter was never interest in having kids (not the maternal type) she was only interested in dating people not interested in kids.  Spouse wasn't interested in kids before diagnosis anyway, so diagnosis was a non-issue in the kid deprtment.

Youngest is 17, so who knows what she'll want in the future. She's said in the past she's interested in having a child in the future.

I'm an adoptive parent with no hang ups about not passing on DNA.  If we need to grow our population through immigration, that's perfectly fine with me. We are a nation of immigrants after all. Nothing new about that.

I know I say it a lot here, but I'm inclined to avoid preventative care after youngest is an adult because I don't want to increase the odds of the end of my life being the long, slow, dwindle. I'd rather live an active life and then die quickly of something catastrophic (massive stroke, heart attack, advanced untreated cancer) at a younger age-like in my 60s. I have helped care for 2 generations of elderly who had access to high quality healthcare and eldercare and it's not anything I want for myself.  I'm still trying to decide at what age I'll decline preventive treatments (cancer screens, blood pressure meds, heart assessments, etc.) I still plan to live a healthy diet, physically active lifestyle, robust social life, and such but I'd rather focus on living and dying more naturally instead that in between state of avoiding death with constant  preventive treatments while I watch tv for a decade and have people change my diaper. If others want preventive care for themselves, they should get it.

I think about and accept all the possibilities of my own care should I need it in the future: in home family care, in home hired care, in family member's home care, assisted living, nursing home.  It will be whatever makes the most sense for everyone involved (me, spouse, adult kids, possible adult grandkids) at the time.  It's ludicrous to think I can demand one particular form of care in the future.  Who knows what finances, lifestyles of adult children, cost of living, cost of care, access to caregivers, and medical issues will factor in then?

[HS Mom in NC]

On 7/27/2022 at 9:34 AM, BlsdMama said:

Since most of us homeschooled, I make a big assumption that we cultivated friends and community?

Do you mean we cultivated community among homeschoolers near us that continue to be our community when we're done homeschooling? No. I only have 1 in person friend from my homeschooling community that fly back and see when I visit family or we make plans to see each other when she's within a state or two of me on this side of the country, which has happened twice in the 4 years since I moved. Once in VA and once in SC. Otherwise I see here once or twice a year when I fly back to AZ to see relatives. Most have moved on to new locations or to other social circles more relevant to their current lives.  Quite a few went back into the workforce limiting their time to the most immediately relevant relationships: family, co-workers, places of worship if they attend regularly, hobbies, etc.

Do you mean we learned community cultivating skills as homeschoolers that transfer to building community outside of the homeschool community for the rest of our lives? Not necessarily. While that's true of me and other homeschoolers I know, plenty of homeschoolers aren't particularly interested in building community of themselves after the kids are launched for various reasons. That's  assuming they built community during the homeschooling years, which isn't always the case.

Plenty of people in my life who never homeschooled have built community for themselves through different stages of life.

[BlsdMama]

23 hours ago, frogger said:

I think it is even worse than that. It isn't just nursing staff that is needed it is that as people retire there is a smaller workforce to do neccessary tasks. How hard will it be to find someone to farm, roof your home, plow the streets if the majority of people are elderly? People think in terms of money now and have a hard time understanding that money is just paper. It doesn't actually feed, house, or heal you. Money does nothing, people do. 

Children are the future of a country and if you don't have children, the future is bleak. Right now immigration is a huge blessing to help even things out in the USA. I wish we could open it up more. People obviously want to come so it seems a win win.  Japan is looking at getting more foreign workers as we speak but what happens when most countries have an elderly population? We can't all import actual workers from elsewhere. 

The world is pretty crowded. A gradual population decline wouldn't hurt. Population levels falling off a cliff though is a very bad thing. 

I'm not concerned about my children taking care of me. What I'm really concerned about is them becoming slaves to a giant elderly voting block.

I will add, I wish there were more government support for families. Bigger tax credits is the simplest so people could use that money towards daycare OR anything else depending on their circumstances. No one should feel they have to have kids but we could certainly help those who want to have children but realize it is extremely expensive. 

Wow.  More people with your attitude could have made my days grocery shopping with 11 in tow far more pleasant. 😉 ❤️ 

[BlsdMama]

22 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

I do not expect my children to care for me. I want them to want to be around me and do things for me because they love me.

I've seen how the "expect" tends to play out when the older person no longer feels an obligation to be civil and kind because "I raised you, you owe me". Then the younger person often puts up with poor behavior because that's what is expected.

I plan on STAYING a lovely, kind, considerate person so MAYBE my children and grandchildren will take pleasure in keeping me company and caring for me in whatever ways they are capable. 

Exactly.  Entitlement is ugly, maybe especially in family?

18 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Do you mean we cultivated community among homeschoolers near us that continue to be our community when we're done homeschooling? No. I only have 1 in person friend from my homeschooling community that fly back and see when I visit family or we make plans to see each other when she's within a state or two of me on this side of the country, which has happened twice in the 4 years since I moved. Once in VA and once in SC. Otherwise I see here once or twice a year when I fly back to AZ to see relatives. Most have moved on to new locations or to other social circles more relevant to their current lives.  Quite a few went back into the workforce limiting their time to the most immediately relevant relationships: family, co-workers, places of worship if they attend regularly, hobbies, etc.

Do you mean we learned community cultivating skills as homeschoolers that transfer to building community outside of the homeschool community for the rest of our lives? Not necessarily. While that's true of me and other homeschoolers I know, plenty of homeschoolers aren't particularly interested in building community of themselves after the kids are launched for various reasons. That's  assuming they built community during the homeschooling years, which isn't always the case.

Plenty of people in my life who never homeschooled have built community for themselves through different stages of life.

I think I assumed my experiences are the norm, but sometimes I forget that I'm in the homeschooling world much longer than the average person? 

 

My own experience - my two best friends - one I met in 2001 when our hubbies were Army.  We stayed friends for 20 years and she and her family moved to Iowa to be closer after my diagnosis. Her youngest is named after me and I love her like real family.  My other bestie I met in OR and we've been back to visit her and she's been here four times, including once with her four kids.  Her oldest daughter visited last week.  I have another dear Oregon friend who has been here 3 times and her family came once.  A beloved local friend is taking two of my girls to CO this next week with a group. I can't go and she's their surrogate mom for the week. Another dear friend has really identified with my health struggles as we both have health issues and we encourage one another. Another is an older mom with all grown kids but I appreciate her company and insight. 

 

I honestly just can't fathom my life without these women, but we had this common bond that represented our beliefs and it's how I got to know their kids and how they got to know mine.  But I will grant that my life has largely been rotating almost wholly around homeschooling.

[HS Mom in NC]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

I honestly just can't fathom my life without these women, but we had this common bond that represented our beliefs and it's how I got to know their kids and how they got to know mine.  But I will grant that my life has largely been rotating almost wholly around homeschooling.

I don't think time is the factor here.  Are you not from a large cosmopolitan area where people move in and out with explosive growth? I was.  That's a completely different culture. I was in the largest homeschool community (PHX) for 18 years.  I was in huge homeschooling groups (100+ dues paying families,)smaller ones (1 or 2 dozen of families) and stealth ones (invitation only by members, half a dozen families.) A large percentage of homeschoolers I knew moved to different areas before their homeschooling careers over, and many groups didn't have consistent enough attendance for deep relationship, it was hang out with who showed up and don't expect to see them regularly.

The roles you describe for your friends are more typically roles people's extended families and sometimes church members, but that usually means attending a church that does community well for a long time. The evangelical world in rapid growth areas where I've lived (PHX 45 years, Raleigh 4 years) don't have that kind of dynamic with new people coming in and "shopping" for a congregation among scores of churches.

[J-rap]

On 7/27/2022 at 11:39 AM, Kanin said:

I've never understood how it would be selfish to not have children. Is the thinking that the people are so self-involved that they can't care about children, or something? Or they are too selfish to take on responsibility? 

 

I think it's because they think the couple is so into their own self-interests that they don't want to have to think about others/children.  Which is kind of crazy because I think generally couples who choose not to have children have probably put a lot of careful, unselfish thought into it.