Use Wayfarers/SLTL/ELTL in a Robinson style, self-teaching home-school? (long)

[hi.im.em]

Hi everyone,

Feel free to pick holes in this - or chime in if you have experience with the curriculum mentioned. Not homeschooling yet so may I be naive. 

I know it’s controversial, but I’m really struck by the self-teaching home-school.

My selfish reasons are:

-          I’m an introvert and know I will burn out on any teaching-intensive programme

-          I want a big-ish family and may have other young children who need my attention

-          I would like to do some (remote) work outside the home

My unselfish reasons are

-          I want a skill-based education for my children so that they can spend as much time as possible pursuing interests (whether they be academic or otherwise)

-           I think solo-learning is a very important skill. It just doesn’t make sense to spend grades 1-3 spoon-feeding and cajoling, and then teach them ‘study skills’ and expect them to work independently by university.  So many university students flail without the handholding, and this applies to the workplace too. Many end up depressed without the structure of school (UK universities are less hand-holding than American ones, at least for Humanities). 

-          It’s been scientifically proven that work you choose to do yourself is better quality than if it had been chosen for you (Montessori schools operate on that basis). I want to keep 'non-negotiables' as minimal as possible. 

-          By teaching the core skills very thoroughly in the younger years (all 74 phonograms, all their Maths facts/concepts), they will be able to read anything or find ways to think through problems with or without me/a teacher. Surely that should be the goal of a solid education. 

So, my current thoughts/theoretical plans are:

Young ones are actively taught maths and literacy every day (or on alternating days):

-          to read and spell using Orton Gillingham method. I like Kathy from barefoot meanderings' Reading Lessons Through Literature, as I think it has the most hand-holding for me. Spell to Read and Write also look good, also All About Reading. This would be preceded by Montessori early reading sequence with metal insets, sandpaper letters, and learning to ‘write’ with a movable alphabet. It involves learning phonics off-pat with flashcards. Learn Spelling rules off pat.

-          cursive first – RLTL has that built in (I would pick slant cursive as my handwriting style) and an extra handwriting book or SRW has a cursive first handwriting programme.

-          Maths (the four operations) – conceptually first with Miquon Math/Montessori activites. Then learn the maths facts off-pat using Robinson flashcards.

From approx 8.5-9 years old or once they can read fluently and know their Math basics enough to start Saxon 54. 

Every morning, after a walk, we would have a  ‘school time’ where they would each do their maths first and then any independent written (or drawn for little ones) work. They could choose to work through a workbook once their written work is done (like the critical thinking company ones or science ones) or draw/play/read quietly. I would be in the room with them working on my own stuff. 

At this point Maths would be independent – they would mark their own work and I would give them regualar placement tests to check retention. I would mark their essays.  Maths could be outsourced to a Kumon centre but not ideally. I would remain involved till middle-school for grammar/LA study.

I would start Kathy’s English Lessons Through Literature programme once reading is fluent – teaching the grammar lesson and supervising dictation/copy work for middle school ones. I would give each child a formal, 20 min lesson from ELTL or Miquon at some point during the rest of the day (not during 2h school time). I love the look of ELTL as it systematically teaches them how to write an essay/narration with a gentle transition into independent work. Eventually, I would just have them write an essay on something they were interested in/reading about/working on every day and have them work through ELTL themselves. I would ‘edit’ their work journalism style to show them how it could be improved. Typing is fine in later years.

The books studied in ELTL would be ‘required’ reading (with substitutions for the ones I/the child doesn’t vibe with) plus one or two books from the Pathways history/science/geography selections.  I would adapt certain things according to the student, such as the amount of reading/writing required. Narrations could be done by drawing. Some may need to start the independent work later and take longer with Miquon/RLTL. 

I’d quite like to make it so they are always reading one fiction and one non-fiction book, or alternating the two – that way the copywork and dictation can be pulled from either. In the later levels of ELTL I think non-fiction is incorporated anyhow.

Afternoons would be for activities, playing and free reading. I would do read-alouds and games on request if we were home and according to my availability. There would be a ‘morning basket’ for each child with Wayfairers-esque book selections for the historical period, optional workbooks, and games. The older students would probably be enrolled in online study courses/studying for exams or going to Sixth-form college.

I would do a family read-aloud before bed. Something on the historical period we were studying or the Bible, or maybe something like Narnia.

Do you think this would keep us sane until the teen years? I'm aiming for simplicity and rigour.

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by hi.im.em
Edited 6.5 year for 8-9, following examining Saxon 5/4

[wisdomandtreasures]

Have you seen Karen Rodriguez's videos? She has tons of videos on using RC. Her YouTube channel is called "Our House Homeschooling".

We recently switched to RC (with some tweaks to the list) after years of burnout with Ambleside Online. It has been wonderful for my family. 

Edit - Just wanted to add that it's not selfish to protect your sanity. It's certainly better than constant illness and a grumpy mood from always being stressed and racing against time. Also, kids need to learn independently. They can't just sit there at 20 years old waiting to be told what to do. Initiative is a good thing!

Edited June 14, 2022 by wisdomandtreasures

[HomeAgain]

1. You want to use materials that require teacher interaction.  Do yourself a favor and read The Princess and The Goblin before handing it to a potential 9yo.  The sentence structure is rather complex. It's part of level C in ELTL, which puts it at about 4th grade.

2. You miss the point of an education.  It's not to learn what books say, it's to interact with them and relate them to the world around us.  A child getting 20 minutes of instruction is not getting the benefit of interaction with discussion.

3. How does your plan take child development and needs into account?

4. How is your plan superior to other methods?

5. Your goal of a bigger family will come at what expense to the children you have?

[hi.im.em]

Thanks @wisdomandtreasures I will check her out. How are you finding the Robinson literature quizzes? There aren't any samples online. I probably won't end up buying the Robinson curriculum as I prefer barefoot meanderings' book list, but there is definitely some crossover and I would like to compare the comprehension questions. 

@HomeAgainI guess I asked for it😅

Thanks for the heads up about The Princess and the Goblin. I haven't read it but definitely plan to read stuff before handing it over, and substituting/audiobooking where necessary. Do you see any other probs with ELTL? It seems great to me - a lot like WTM materials in terms of rigor but a bit more 'in one place'. It has instructions about how to modify if a child needs less writing; and encourages different styles of narration - oral and drawing - to accommodate learning styles/developmental needs. It seems that not many people are using it though, am I missing something? 

The alternative is to use separate curricula for grammar, literature, and composition. I do like WTM for that but ELTL just seems easier to implement - fewer moving parts. 

On 1. Yes that's true. I am planning A LOT more interaction than a Robinson purist (if they even exist). My idea is to have c. 1.5h of independent study (or quiet play) a day, 20-40 mins of intense, hands-on, one on one instruction per day, per child. The rest of the time relaxed. project-based, read-aloud, nature walks vibe.  If I have three school-age kids that's 2hs tutoring per day, year-round. I may be wrong, but that seems the max that is reasonable to me, fitted around mealtimes, ferrying to and from extracurriculars, facilitating the sudden urge to 'camp' in the garden, emotional meltdowns, just hanging out.. 

So if each child (over 6.5) is only getting 20-40 mins of skill-based instruction daily, it better be focused on the important stuff, right?

 For those 2hs I would be in 'teaching' mode, but the rest of the time I would still be in 'mum' mode. Answering a million questions/getting out the book that might answer the question.

2/3. I don't think I expressed myself well - the afternoons would be for having those discussions. Pathways has you all reading about the same era of history and the same science subject, so is deliberately set up for this 'enrichment' type of learning. It just wouldn't be 'formal' in the way that the ELTL and Miquon/Saxon would be. I would sometimes pull a science or history book to use in the morning's writing exercise, but I imagine we would naturally discuss things while going about daily life/eating etc. We don't have a tv so there's not much else to do, and my husband and I talk about the books we read, so it's just part of family culture. 

4/5. Not sure it's superior to other methods, just more doable. If I had an only child, or two children close together, I might do a different curriculum for everything, completely bespoke, and spend tonnes of time reading aloud. I actually love the Waldorf curricula but it all seems so so much.  With children at different levels, or even a baby/toddler and a school-aged one, I just think it would be overwhelming. I have a toddler now and can't imagine trying to keep her safe and fed and entertained while also doing a full CM, Classical or Waldorf curriculum with another child.  I'm not planning to have another baby until she's nearly 4 - so I'll have at least two with very different needs. Establishing the habit of doing independent desk work with dd will set the tone for the rest of the homeschool, and means there's room to add more children into the mix.  

Having a different set of workbooks for everything I think falls into the trap of trying to replicate what the schools do. For me, the whole point of homeschooling is that you choose where to put your energy. 

I suppose what I am suggesting is not actually Robinson, but more Classical Education style Maths and Language Arts as a priority, and interest-lead/buffet style for the rest. Maybe it's slightly different for me too because in the UK you only take 3 or 4 subjects for A level at 18, so it seems less important that we 'do' all the disciplines in depth. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by hi.im.em
typo

[HomeAgain]

@hi.im.em, I had a knee jerk reaction. We've spent years with ELTL and I really do like it, but I think you're asking a bit much from it.  It does have a lot of parts wrapped into one so a daily lesson would be about 45 minutes plus reading.  There were the grammar exercises, the writing exercises, the writing, the short story, and the poetry memorization along with the picture studies spread throughout.  Plus the main books.

My other concern was that there is no such thing as static needs.  The reason most of us work so heavily with kids in K-3 is because these are the "learning to read" years, whereas the 4-7 grades are "reading to learn", and high school is "applied learning".  It's not spoon feeding younger kids and then expecting them to be independent.  It's a careful curating of skills within child development levels.  There's also a lot of waves that we go through.  Two months ago ds12 could not complete anything independently.  Today he grabbed the video to review a math lesson he didn't quite get, did 2 worksheets independently and showed me his interpretation/skill mastery when I got home, then did a more difficult page of math with me sitting across from him doing the same work so that he could check different points.  He also started his day by making a task list and working through that while I was busy.  He could have done this at age 5/6, age 8, 10, and now mid-12, but then he goes on waves down where he needs more supervision, more working with an adult and very little independent work.  Oldest had similar waves.  My goal isn't to say that at age 6 they need to do what is necessary for age 18, but to give a gentle sloping path to get there.  It's explicitly teaching not just academics, but the executive functioning skills necessary for success.

[wisdomandtreasures]

22 minutes ago, hi.im.em said:

Thanks @wisdomandtreasures I will check her out. How are you finding the Robinson literature quizzes? There aren't any samples online. I probably won't end up buying the Robinson curriculum as I prefer barefoot meanderings' book list, but there is definitely some crossover and I would like to compare the comprehension questions. 

I don't use literature quizzes. I just have them narrate the day's reading to me and we talk about it, but it's nothing formal. When they see something on a hike and it prompts them to say "This is just like in Pilgrim's Progress!" or "The part in the chapter where XYZ sounds like it's symbolic of ABC..." I know they're getting it. 🙂

Here's how we do it:

Morning group work: Everyone reads scripture, shares what they read, reads a poem aloud, then we do scripture memory verses.

Kids split up for the 3Rs: math, writing (copywork for little ones, 1-page essay for older--he also studies grammar using Our Mother Tongue), and reading (my list is a mix of RC and what I think are the best of Ambleside Online. I have a history list and a science/nature study list that they read from weekly. So for example, my 7-year-old reads a chapter of the Burgess Bird Book (nature study) and a chapter from Our Island Story (history) once a week, then the rest of the reading time is the main book list. Right now she's in "On the Banks of Plum Creek". My oldest is reading Churchill's "Birth of Britain", "Wonder Book of Chemistry", and just finished "The Mysterious Island" by Jules Verne) and vocabulary using the RC vocab cards and word searches/matching games. When they finish reading they narrate to me and add something from history to their timelines or maps. During this time I can give the 2-year-old some attention, get some chores done, and do some schoolwork with my 5-year-old.

After that (and lunch 🙂) we do group Spanish (daily), CM-style picture study (once a week) and painting or drawing twice a week. They also take piano lessons and ballet, and I'm using a very cute resource to help them learn all the orchestral instruments, called "A Child's Introduction to the Orchestra" (on YouTube), and we listen to lots of classical music. I would include and encourage the arts no matter what curriculum we use, whether we homeschool or use public school. They just make like more enjoyable.

Also... By doing things more like RC, we actually have TIME to do the riches and discuss what we learn, instead of pushing the arts to the back burner. And there's time to think. I think Art Robinson's... uh... gruff? Stern? Way of writing makes people imagine the kids are in a quiet room for 5 hours straight, cramming away and trying to finish the book as quickly as possible to get to the next one. The goal is to have quiet time so they can focus, but who says the 2 hours of reading time (which is a goal to work toward--you don't start off a 6-year-old with 2 hours of nonstop reading!) can't include pausing to contemplate what they read or tell you or a sibling about something that stood out to them (I get why Mr Robinson couldn't do this--he was a single dad and still had to get food on the table so he couldn't have people talking to him all day. I, baking a loaf of bread in the kitchen, can)? That time is their time, and if some of it is spent looking up literary terms, copying a meaningful quote down in a notebook, keeping a science/nature or history journal, or make an outline of what was read, that's fine. 

[hi.im.em]

@HomeAgain the waves make sense - thank you. And the 'learning to read' years. I suppose my mistake was thinking that once you can read, you can read. But there are certainly different 'levels' of reading so it makes sense to wait until nearer 8/9 before requiring much independence on that front (sigh). 

Executive functioning is super interesting. My original thoughts were that you stifle learning executive functioning with too much handholding, but you've made me rethink. Showing them how work can be done is an important step toward becoming independent. I think that's subliminally why I like Miquon and ELTL, I think they both teach the necessary facts and then show you all the amazing ways you can work with those facts. I like the idea of offering more teacher time as needed, and then backing off when they seem to be doing well independently. 

@wisdomandtreasures your day sounds so lovely. Just like I imagine my dream home school would be like.  Are the Robinson vocab cards/matching games good? Do you not rate his 'exams' or just that you don't need them in your homeschool because you can assess understanding orally?

His curriculum actually seems quite expensive considering all the books are in the public domain. I kind of want it though. Apparently, he has instructions on how best to use Saxon and adapt it for different needs. Was this useful?

[8filltheheart]

Do you actually have children yet?  It is really hard to tell from your post if you are posting about hypothetical children or maybe a baby/toddler but not school-age children??

FWIW, I have been homeschooling for a long time.  I started homeschooling in 1994 and have graduated 6 of our 8 kids from our homeschool.  Your post misses the joy and beauty that homeschooling as a lifestyle allows.  I have never "spoon-fed" my kids (they never take tests, so not sure what I would be spoon-feeding them to do). My greatest blessings from homeschooling have been the conversations we have and guiding my kids toward making connections that do not happen without someone to interact with and bounce ideas off of or to challenge suppositions.   High school can be so much fun!  I'm in the process of planning a CS Lewis and philosophy course to do with my 11th grader.  I am really looking forward to discussing complex life issues and philosophical ideas with her.  This course is designed not for checking off some academic box, but for the forming of a young woman for adulthood.  Interacting, listening, understanding their POV....self-education cannot replace that. 

You can nurture their internal motivation to want to learn and master ideas to carry into adulthood. 

ETA; And, if you don't have kids yet, you can't predict the kinds of kids you will have.  We have a disabled adult child.  We have 3 dyslexics, 1 severely so (he didn't read on grade level until 5th grade).   The best made plans can evaporate quickly with reality.

Edited June 14, 2022 by 8filltheheart

[wisdomandtreasures]

1 hour ago, hi.im.em said:

your day sounds so lovely. Just like I imagine my dream home school would be like.  Are the Robinson vocab cards/matching games good? Do you not rate his 'exams' or just that you don't need them in your homeschool because you can assess understanding orally?

Thank you! 1) I love the vocabulary exercises and do them myself for fun. 2) Yes, I just skip exams and narrations tell me how well they understood the book. If they throw out a big word or phrase that sounds like they're just quoting the book, I'll ask "What does that mean?" A mumbled "I dunno" gets out and encyclopedia or the dictionary and we talk about it. An explanation gets an "Oh, I see! And then what happened?" They have lots of discussions and rabbit trails with Dad around the dinner table, too.

[Clarita]

A few of my thoughts (my kids are just slightly older than your oldest). 

I too wanted a master plan for all my children starting out, define my methodology, know the curriculum I'll use, etc. What really happened is I don't know the kids I had until I started to "do school" with them. The reality is they are different than each other and what they think is their "ideal" school looks different than what I envisioned. For example I want poetry tea time, what really happened is snuggle up with encyclopedia time where I read pages out of various encyclopedias. 

16 hours ago, hi.im.em said:

From approx 6.5 years old (once they can read fluently and know their Maths facts enough to start Saxon 54): 

I believe Saxon 54 is geared for fourth grade. From my brief experience, using a math curriculum geared for a higher grade level than your child the issue is the work required is not age appropriate. They require more output and focus than your child can handle at their age. This is ignoring your child's ability to even write that much (which may or may not be at that level), since yes you can scribe for them. 

16 hours ago, hi.im.em said:

-          By teaching the core skills very thoroughly in the younger years (all 74 phonograms, all their Maths facts/concepts), they will be able to read anything or find ways to think through problems with or without me/a teacher. Surely that should be the goal of a solid education. 

My 5 year old is brilliant and is able to read for information-ish. He can read a story by himself and then tell me about the story and even answer reading comprehension questions. (I don't believe this is normal by the way.) He is actually capable of reading the instructions in his Singapore math workbook and do the problems. He as a 5 year old lacks the skill and/or cognitive ability to connect what the instructions is asking him to do, to conceptually what he would do with that information in real life. I don't know when that cognitive ability comes in but, I can honestly say I was 2 years out of college before I was able to read a textbook, do some textbook practice problems and then know how I might connect that in some real life situation. Not to say other people are not capable of doing that earlier but just saying it's a pretty tall order. 

My suggestion is take it a year or a stage at a time. Then see what happens.

[Xahm]

Others have given some good advice, but one thing I'd suggest you keep in mind is that the level at which a child can work completely independently is far, far lower than where they can be with someone there. I'm not talking about spoon feeding but guiding. My almost ten year old is brilliant and very independent, but I make sure I'm very nearby when she's doing math. Some days she breezes though on her own, but other days I'm at her elbow asking leading questions. "What do you already know?" "What do you need to know?" "Do you want to write out an chart or draw a picture to help you see what's going on?" If she's having a bad day or the topic is new and tough, she'll sit getting more and more angry. If I help her clear out the log jam, it's often back to smooth sailing. If I kept her at the level where she could always work independently, she'd be much lower in math and not getting that practice of how to approach hard things. 

Really, she's the kind of learner Robinson envisions and if you told her about it, she probably say she would love it. However, one of the key skills she needs in life is learning how to work with others, to respect their thoughts, and to communicate clearly and helpfully with others. Collaboration is an equally important life skill to independence. Sacrificing that learning for the sake of independence would backfire in the future and probably lead to a certain level of isolation and boredom. 

I have 3 younger kids and it can be really, really hard. There's no way I could give everyone what they need in two hours a day. If that's all I had to give, I'd have to outsource in some major way. Yeah, they could survive if that's what we did though a crises, but it's not something I would have as a long term plan. Even when we are on a break from schooling, my kids require well more than two hours of direct interaction!

[Clarita]

On 6/14/2022 at 7:50 AM, hi.im.em said:

-          Maths (the four operations) – conceptually first with Miquon Math/Montessori activites. Then learn the maths facts off-pat using Robinson flashcards.

Just based on things I researched/read/learned from conferences about Montessori past age 6. The Montessori math sequence starts/introduces concepts earlier in age, but this doesn't equate to Montessori completing these math concepts at an earlier age than a regular program. For example completing the golden bead work and the stamp game work only brings your child to be capable of doing long division using manipulatives. There are other work in the Montessori sequence that brings your child further in their learning of long division and multiplication so they are capable of completing long division on paper without manipulatives. 

So this article might give you an idea of the math concepts still being taught in the 6-12 age range. http://montessorinuggets.blogspot.com/2012/07/montessori-scope-and-sequence-elementary.html

 

[hi.im.em]

Thanks for your responses, everyone. I've had a couple of days to mull on this. I also figured out how to use the search function properly (use google and tag welltrainedmind,com), and discovered some old threads on the Robinson Curriculum and ELTL/RLTL that were helpful.

RC seems to be quite controversial (for good reason!) but from what I observed, the way most people are using it/interpreting it is actually not that dissimilar from usual classical practices. Art Robinson needed his kids to be independent early on, most of us don't need to be anywhere near as extreme. 

I think it's useful in that it gives homeschoolers permission to go back to basics. I love all the fancy curriculums (hell I LOVE Waldorf!) but sometimes writing a half-page narration in a plain exercise book and doing some maths drills is all that you/the student can handle that day. Not every season has to be super rich and juicy and teacher intensive (which is what CM and Walforf encourage and is probably ideal if you have someone else running the household). 

@Clarita, @Xahm , @HomeAgain- because I only have a toddler, I actually don't have a clue what most 6-year-olds are like. so thanks for your insights. I can see that the age distinction above is completely arbitrary. It seems like being able to read for meaning, do all four operations with single digits confidently and recall maths facts are the minimum possible requirements for working independantly. And even then there will be waves. 

Something I'm thinking about now - maybe I want to stick with a level of work that they CAN accomplish alone (so say working a grade behind for ELTL/Maths drills), and then work with them 1:1 on higher-level stuff. That way they are still having the experience of independent work and the sense of agency/self-esteem/discipline that goes with that, but still getting the challenge of a teacher-intensive program like miquon and ELTL. 

@8filltheheart I think I meant 'hand-holding' rather than 'spoon feeding'. I do want to hand-hold my children, I just also want like an hour in the day of 'independent work time' where there is no hand-holding. 

I will still read aloud a lot, but interest-led rather than on a schedule. I was thinking of using Wayfairers as a menu, and kind of strewing the books around the house.  I think of it like a Montessori-style controlled environment. If there are lots of good books around on a variety of different subjects, my kids will either look through them themselves or ask me to read them aloud. Ditto with board games etc. I will save the teacher-lead stuff for the 3Rs and let the students lead on the rest. 

The independent time I imagine as consisting of a certain number of easyish problems from maths-mastery program (Saxon, Kumon) and some independent copywork, drawing, journaling or narration, This would run alongside me working though a maths program like miquon or Saxon, and a complete LA program such as ELTL. This is obviously with older students who have passed the basic requirements for independant work outlined above.  

 

 

 

[Lucy the Valiant]

This is probably an overly simplistic suggestion as I am not well read on all these systems mentioned, but one of the BEST things we did during growing-up years for kids was daily 90 min quiet time. We just smooth-transitioned out of naps, and th kids (and mama!) were allowed to do anything at all that was quiet. (We have a full and busy home; this might not be so wonderful for an only child.) My kids learned to LOVE reading, to self-entertain with no screen,  to draw, to play Lego, to hand-craft, to write, to listen to quiet music and audio books. As adults, they look back on those years with fondness and sometimes wish they still had Quiet Time every day after lunch. ❤️

[HomeAgain]

@hi.im.em,

 I think you would be surprised at the kind of time you have with more than one kid in the house (at this time I had a 17yo, 6yo, and watched a 4yo and infant).  I did invest in things that the 6yo could complete independently (like Luk books) and things we could do together at different levels (like giving two kids paint or playdough and giving the baby applesauce or babyfood to paint with). 

Everyone falls into their own organic, shifting, routine.  Sometimes what works one year doesn't work another, so you reorganize.  We've always kept one standard rule in our house (8 to 3, no tv) and rearranged the rest as we went along.

Edited June 20, 2022 by HomeAgain

[Clemsondana]

I could have come up with a plan like this, and my older kid probably would have done OK, with some tweaks.  For my younger it would have been a nightmare.  I also would likely have missed some gaps that needed to be filled in.  For instance, older struggled to make inferences and also had some issues with sequencing (these are, apparently, common in kids who need speech therapy for the particular issue that older had) and struggled to do a lot of writing (likely because it was hard to sequence their ideas) but in other areas was many years ahead of grade level.  Kid did best when I tweaked my expectations a lot.  For instance, many kids can dash off a simple paragraph in mid elementary.  I know that I was writing reports or essays that were a couple of pages long by 3rd grade.  My older could have done it, but it would have taken an inordinate amount of time, energy, and effort.  I decided that the time spent on that would have be disproportionate to the benefit.  So, I required minimal output for English, history, and science until kid was in 5th/6th grade, when we made a specific effort to learn to structure a good paragraph, and then an essay.  Kid can now write well and quickly.  These were not changes that I expected to make.  My younger needed to see lessons of concrete duration for most subjects.  They struggled to 'just read for a while' in any subject, wanting to know exactly how much was enough.  So, there were years that we did workbooks or books with short chapters even though this isn't my preferred method.  I needed to take conflict about 'How much do I need to do?' out of the situation.  This was never an issue with my older, who, once they no longer had to produce output, would happily read all sorts of things. 

I did have the goal of working towards independence with my kids.  I didn't necessarily want for them to do everything independently, though.  I had certain subjects (math, others, depending on topic) that I was always available for, whether I taught directly on any given day or not.  In K, for instance, I taught the the basics of our handwriting program and they learned how it was set up.  Once I knew that they were on the right track, handwriting became the thing that they could do on their own.  At different times, they might have had other things that they could do independently - maybe a vocabulary workbook or spelling exercise or finishing a chapter of history.  They had a list to work from each day.  But, the age at which they could work independently, only getting my help when they needed it, varied a lot and, like others have said, came and went.  There is also a difference between allowing them to independently structure their time and being hands-off.  My high schooler is completely independent as far as actually doing their work.  But, they talk to me about what they've learned more than they did when they were younger because they have more things to think deeply about.  But, they would never think to 'think deeply' about a character in literature - for them, people (and book characters) just do what they do, and kid doesn't spend a lot of time examining the internal motivations of others.  So, without a lit guide or teacher (me or outsourced) kid would just read and move on.  But...unintended conseequences of decisions in history?  Long term ramifications of a a change in policy?  Kid is all over that and has all sorts of thoughts.  They can be self-teaching in that I can leave a stack of books and they'll read them, and they'll come to me randomly with their ideas. 

Math has also varied quite a bit, by kid, topic, and age.  Basic facts wouldn't have been enough to get either of my kids through math on their own,  Older was highly advanced in math, but couldn't understand the long division algorithm (they did it in K) and I had to play around with explanations until they got it, for instance.  Younger somehow understood that 26 x 17 was 20 x 10 + 20 x 7 +.... which will be great when we get to factoring in algebra, but I had to explain how that fit with the standard, more efficient, algorithm.  And, kid struggled mightily to make sense of some ideas with fractions.  For us, I'm happy to let them study independently when it's working, but it's my job to make sure that they actually understand what they are doing and that they aren't skating by using some trick that will come back to bite them when they move to the next level.  One of my kids has used Khan Academy to do some math review, which checks the work for you.  But, for their regular work on paper I've never let my kids check their math themselves.  We work to mastery, which means that we go back and correct the things that are missed.  Once they've seen the answer, it's hard to go back and rework it and learn from it.  Even for my kid who will be starting AoPS Calc next year, I check their math orally -  they read their answers and I tell them if it's right or wrong, and if it's wrong then they rework until it's right - sometimes it's a simple mistake or something that they can figure out, and other times I have to help them troubleshoot.  

[8filltheheart]

Since your oldest is a toddler, I can share what my goals were for my little ones that from my perspective is way more important than your independent schoolwork goals. (I personally think an hr of independent work is completely arbitrary. When they are in primary grades, a few minutes is normal, but by middle school it is multiple hrs.)

Anyhoo, I spend their toddler/preschool yrs with 0 academic focus but with a huge training them self-entertain focus. I can't tell you how many parents complain that their kids are a pain when they aren't in their daily schoolwork routine. Breaks/vacations are more work for mom. My absolute objective for my younger kids is learning how to self-entertain and self-regulate. It doesn't mean ignoring them! But it does mean giving them a few options to do and then expecting them to play alone. As they get a little older, you start encouraging self-selected entertainment options.

We are a no/low scree time family. We have never owned any type of gaming system. My school-age kids disappear when they don't have things they have to be doing and find things to do. (No mom intervention required.) This continues on into adulthood. My 20 yr old has been watching YT videos on how to crochet this fancy shawl and has been working on it this summer. (My 16 yod spent yesterday watching an oil painting tutorial and painted some pretty awesome flowers. My 12 yod has been teaching herself to play the piano (she is already a violinist).

Anyway, if your kids know how to self-entertain and self-regulate, then you as mom have more freedom for more things....teaching, cooking, and even mom time. I spend hrs with my kids every day....reading aloud, playing board games (we are huge gamers), but it is out of mutual desire vs I'll be bugged to death with bored and annoying kids if I am not there overseeing them constantly.

Edited June 21, 2022 by 8filltheheart

[Malam]

On 6/20/2022 at 8:20 AM, Clemsondana said:

Younger somehow understood that 26 x 17 was 20 x 10 + 20 x 7 +.... which will be great when we get to factoring in algebra, but I had to explain how that fit with the standard, more efficient, algorithm.

Is the standard algorithm really more efficient? Also, do you think any math curriculum you used helped with that insight or is it a total mystery?

[Malam]

On 6/20/2022 at 1:08 PM, 8filltheheart said:

Anyhoo, I spend their toddler/preschool yrs with 0 academic focus but with a huge training them self-entertain focus. I can't tell you how many parents complain that their kids are a pain when they aren't in their daily schoolwork routine. Breaks/vacations are more work for mom. My absolute objective for my younger kids is learning how to self-entertain and self-regulate. It doesn't mean ignoring them! But it does mean giving them a few options to do and then expecting them to play alone. As they get a little older, you start encouraging self-selected entertainment options.

Any tips on teaching self-regulation to really young children? (toddlers and prek; I'm assuming you favor supervision for babies <2)

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Malam said:

Any tips on teaching self-regulation to really young children? (toddlers and prek; I'm assuming you favor supervision for babies <2)

I supervise them when they are toddlers and preschoolers, too.  I mainly work on self-regulation through asking them questions about why they are doing something, should they be doing something, what should they be doing, etc.  I want them to answer bc I want them to acknowledge they know their own behaviors and that they are responsible for them.

[Clarita]

3 hours ago, Malam said:

Any tips on teaching self-regulation to really young children? (toddlers and prek; I'm assuming you favor supervision for babies <2)

I also taught my kids some behaviors explicitly as little kids (especially toddlers). Some things that helped as toddlers were when asking for toys to keep their hands by their sides or behind their back (as preschoolers when they start to struggle with grabbing toys before asking we go back to this rule). I use rugs and placemats to teach about personal space. Like if someone is working on something they don't want others to touch we put out a rug and no one is allowed to travel through the rug. For littles I've found giving very explicit instructions on handling different situations useful. Then as they move to preschool/kindergarten age they have more ideas as to how to handle situations (I ask them for their input staring in toddlerhood but they don't usually give any).

I give my babies time where I supervise them from some distance. I set up a safe space for them. I start on a cushy rug/mat for newborn then as they start to crawl and pull up I add things for them to pull up on. I only stay close enough so I'm aware of what they are doing and is able to move them back to the safe space. I'm far enough that they don't think I can save them from falling. I let them be independent as much as they want to (I had one who like to independently explore and one who liked to be held most of the day). 

 

[JazzyMom]

Have not had time to read all of the responses, but I have a large family (8 kids), and encouraging the kids to be independent learners has worked really well for us.  In fact, when I had to go out of town for a week last spring (my first time leaving the kids), my 7 yo surprised me by having done an entire week’s worth of school when I returned.  

I do work one on one with the K and 1st graders for about 20 minutes per day, teaching them to read, etc. In 2nd grade, they are moving toward independence.  (“Read the directions and complete as much as you can, then bring me your books.”)  If they try something new and get the whole section wrong, I say, “Wow, this is great!  This was something new.  Look at you!  Now, let me show you a few things for tomorrow.”  They eventually begin to prefer doing it themselves.  They also see their older siblings working independently and want to follow suit.

We don’t follow the Robinson method, but I learned a lot from reading through his website right after my 4th child was born.

A few thoughts:

1. If you want your kids to be self-teaching and work independently, you have to use materials that lend themselves to that method.  Wouldn’t be fair to hand them some fancy, teacher intensive program and say do it yourself.

2. With kids below middle school age, I grade their work every single day, so I can see what they missed, explain things they may not have understood, etc.  They need support and accountability.

3. The kids need to have clear expectations of what is expected each day (and for us it is pretty much the same each day), and the materials need to be at a level where they can understand and make progress.

4. My kids are not spending all day alone at a desk.  When they’re 6th grade and under, they spend no more than a couple of hours a day mainly focused on the 3R’s.  In addition, they read independently, listen to audiobooks, play sports, go on outings, play games, draw, craft, etc.  I guess you could call it lifestyle learning.

I do admire moms who plan courses and are very hands on with teaching, but unfortunately I’m just not capable of maintaining quality and consistency that way.  Fortunately, my kids are fine with that, and my older kids have not recommended I change anything for the younger ones.  My kids have seemed to want more depth/academic interaction around 7th/8th grade, and co-ops/DE have been great for that.

We do spend a lot of time together each day and have many joyous moments - they just don’t revolve around schoolwork.  I know this is not for everyone, but it has worked well for us.

Also, kids who need more help, get it. One kid needed vision therapy.  One kid needed some math games and a slower pace.  I did these things with them directly during their one on one time with me.

Edited June 22, 2022 by JazzyMom

[Xahm]

4 hours ago, Malam said:

Any tips on teaching self-regulation to really young children? (toddlers and prek; I'm assuming you favor supervision for babies <2)

For me, a lot of teaching self-regulation is building good physical habits, like stopping and looking when entering a room to avoid interrupting something important, and developing the language skills to identify problems and discuss solutions. 

Watch for trouble areas, then give a concrete solution for them to practice. For example, I taught my kids to clasp their hands together when they know they aren't supposed to touch things. They still do this in museums when they are tempted, especially in the gift shop! 

After I've spotted a trouble area (or can see one coming), I monitor that more closely for a while, then slowly give more space. Like, if they have been playing appropriately with a sibling, but one of them has just entered a new stage that is upsetting the balance, I step in more while they are figuring things out.

Ascribe good motives to them as you are discussing appropriate behavior. Like "I know you want to be a good friend and share your toys, but it can be hard, especially when brother snatches! You can ask mom for help when he snatches, but if you give him a different cool toy, it'll help him not want to snatch. Then, after playing a bit, you can trade toys." Then I stay close to them while they are playing for a while until the older sibling gets in the habit of helping the younger one, and when younger one starts to snatch, I intervene and help them out, giving them both the language they need to communicate back and forth. After a few sessions of that, my kids have been good about adapting those behaviors.

 

[Clarita]

@hi.im.emI just read parts of the "Teaching Younger Children" section in the Robinson website. Now I know where you are getting that idea from. 

They have more experience than I do so I don't doubt their method works. 

I'd have to admit this wouldn't be a method I'd really ever get into or do. It's really fun for me to do math and reading with my kids. I love rolling my newly 4 year old into my 5 year old's lesson. I sort of have to change the activity a bit for the younger one but it's so fun to do it together. I love watching my older one teach my younger child. I love exploring math, reading and spelling with my kids and watching their wonder and when they make a discovery.  

[Clemsondana]

6 hours ago, Malam said:

Is the standard algorithm really more efficient? Also, do you think any math curriculum you used helped with that insight or is it a total mystery?

It may not be for somebody who is orderly, but if you have 4 numbers to add instead of 2 (normally you'd have 26x7 and 26x10) and you are young and want to randomly write the numbers on the page, then you are more likely to make a mistake.  And, they need to recognize the traditional set-up at some point because they'll see it later and it won't be explained.  We used Singapore.  I don't know if it's their method or my explaining.  I know I'd say something like 'First we multiply the 6 by 7, and we write the 2 in the ones column.  We'll put the 4 in the tens column, but since we'll have other things to add to it we'll write it above the 2.  Now we'll multiply the 20 by 7.  We get 140 (or 14 tens, whichever made more sense to the kid), and then we need to add the other 4 tens to have 180/18 tens.  So lets' write that.  Now we multiply the 6 by 10...which is 60, so write the zero and put the 6 in the tens column...now add the 20 tens to the 6 tens...  With that explanation, I could see why they'd understand that it's 4 separate numbers.  Eventually, probably 2 years later, they agreed that maybe adding the 2 numbers in the first step and the 2 numbers in the second so that you only have 2 to add at the end was easier and had less writing.  

[8filltheheart]

@Clarita and @Xahm Great descriptions!  Yes!  I consider that parenting with natural boundaries and positive reinforcement.  It is the exact opposite of reactive parenting.  Consistent expectations while reinforcing calming behaviors goes a long way in helping them learn to internalize behavioral controls.  Your concrete examples are excellent.

[Malam]

9 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

 We used Singapore.  I don't know if it's their method or my explaining.

I think it's in Singapore because of it's efficiency when multiplying two two-digit numbers, but it doesn't generalize to larger digit numbers or, as you mentioned, more numbers. Still, one great property of it is thst it's doable in your head, while the traditional method is meant for pencil and paper.

[Clemsondana]

51 minutes ago, Malam said:

I think it's in Singapore because of it's efficiency when multiplying two two-digit numbers, but it doesn't generalize to larger digit numbers or, as you mentioned, more numbers. Still, one great property of it is thst it's doable in your head, while the traditional method is meant for pencil and paper.

Singapore didn't directly teach it is the way to do things - my older kid never set the problems up that way - but I wouldn't be surprised if something in their explanation was similar to what I said.  It's been several years since I did it - my kids are both teens - but it was interesting to see.  Older actually does the traditional in their head because they don't think of it in the stepwise way that the algorithm is usually taught - like, they'd be likely to say 26x7...so 30x7 is 210, minus 4x7 so...and add that to 26x10=260...or maybe they'd do 30x7-4x7.  Older is really intuitive with math, and for all I know younger picked up some of their approaches from listening to older talk.  I know that, whether from Singapore, my explananations, or some early demos with blocks so that they could visibly see numbers being rearranged instead of memorizing addition and subtraction algorithms like I was taught, my kids are much more comfortable regrouping and rearranging numbers than I was as a student.  

[Janeway]

Do you have kids now?

Your goals and plans are not actually realistic. A six-year-old is not typically fluent in reading, or ready for Saxon 54. 
While it is true that a child is more likely to retain what they’re really interested in, it is not true that being completely hands off is going to make your child suddenly interested in math or reading or anything else. Also, I am not sure of your point to homeschooling and expecting your children to be really advanced and everything, if you want to stay totally hands off.

[Heartstrings]

I've had these kinds of conversation with many moms with very young children who are very excited to homeschool in the future.  Its awesome that you are so enthusiastic and gung ho about this future endeavor!  I do think that at this point, when your oldest is just a toddler, its a waste of time to try to pick out curriculum and attempt to line out plans so far in advance. You're time would be better spent reading and learning about education to prepare yourself.  You should be reading about child development, read Understanding the Logic of English so you are up to date on phonics, grab that Saxon math book and commit to doing a couple of lessons a week.  Lurk here and learn.  Go to homeschool park days and learn.  Quietly soak up all the information.  You said you aren't familiar with kids so park day would be a good opportunity to get familiar with typical 5 and 6 year old's so you can have more realistic ideas.  If you are drawn to having a large family I recommend the Like Mother, Like Daughter blog and recommend making friends with some large family moms at homeschool park day to get an idea on how that looks while homeschooling. 

Get the book Slow and Steady Get Me Ready and start working with your toddlers, learn nursery rhymes, read  books, play in mud.  

I know you're excited and eager and that is so great!  But you'll burn yourself worrying about all of this.  You'll be just as excited when your child is 3 to plan preschool, and when your child is 4 to plan Kindergarten etc. 

[kiwik]

On 6/27/2022 at 8:45 AM, Janeway said:

Do you have kids now?

Your goals and plans are not actually realistic. A six-year-old is not typically fluent in reading, or ready for Saxon 54. 
While it is true that a child is more likely to retain what they’re really interested in, it is not true that being completely hands off is going to make your child suddenly interested in math or reading or anything else. Also, I am not sure of your point to homeschooling and expecting your children to be really advanced and everything, if you want to stay totally hands off.

Yes.  My kids were reasonably advanced readers.  At 6 they could read The Beginners Bible, Magic Treehouse etc.  They couldn't read, understand and follow the instructions in a maths book.  One of them was pretty good at maths but you couldn't have given him a Saxon 54 maths book and told him to work his way through it.

[lulalu]

For the most part you need to wait until your child is school age amd see how best they learn. It will take a year or two to find your groove. For both teacher and children to find what resources and methods work for you both.

 

Robinson was appealing to me before we started schooling. But that method doesn't work here for us. Remember it was a dad having to find something that worked for his family after his wife passed. His older ones were not schooled that way the whole way through. What works for one family won't work for all no matter how well a person can sell their ideas. 

 

The best things to do now is to read aloud, play, and do fine and gross motor activities. These things will give you a lot of insight into the type of learner you have. My ds could remember books I read aloud so well, and he still is an audio learner. 

[HomeAgain]

On 7/4/2022 at 7:53 AM, lulalu said:

For the most part you need to wait until your child is school age amd see how best they learn. It will take a year or two to find your groove. For both teacher and children to find what resources and methods work for you both.

 

Robinson was appealing to me before we started schooling. But that method doesn't work here for us. Remember it was a dad having to find something that worked for his family after his wife passed. His older ones were not schooled that way the whole way through. What works for one family won't work for all no matter how well a person can sell their ideas. 

 

The best things to do now is to read aloud, play, and do fine and gross motor activities. These things will give you a lot of insight into the type of learner you have. My ds could remember books I read aloud so well, and he still is an audio learner. 

Also, our learning preferences change as we learn to process information in different ways.  I have a strong visual memory and can learn easily from static things books, but I prefer to learn hands on still whenever possible.  My visual memory is not as strong in things that change (faces, media), but I do well when there is consistent assessment (discussion, creating charts, etc) of what was taught.

These are not tools that young kids have, and many of them are still in an exploratory mode through early elementary years, so they do best when lessons are multisensory, incorporating different ways of teaching/assessing material.